ForceStealer
Double Growth
Well then you're going to hate it 
Final Fantasy XV (was Versus XIII)
- Thread starter Arianna
- Start date
Lex
Administrator
Don't be so sure, I enjoyed the demo immensely 
Seriously the demo was pretty good, and since we know for sure that was just a small taster with a lot of features locked off, I'm not one bit worried about my enjoyment of the end product. What I am worried about is the seeming change in tone and direction this has taken, which was inevitable with the name and platform change. The thing is, what excited me most about this game was the incredibly dark nihilistic tone it seemed to have in all of its original forms as Versus XIII, so I'm simultaneously bracing myself for the tone shift and a product that is less than what I expect it to be.
My hopes are still high, and so is the mental bar I've set. We know they had the story and scenario worked out prior to the new development cycle, and we know they had assets. I think it's likely they've done away with the assets completely and just taken the ideas (how much wasted time is that seriously) but they've stuck with the story and scenarios and just tweaked it in a few places.
This goes back to what I said in this thread a while ago about panicking when they were talking about the development stage they're at (I think it was 60% or something in January) because given the length of time they've had they should be much further along. This leads me to believe they really are pulling out all the stops (what does this phrase even mean and why am I using it) with this one, which can only be a good thing. The end product is either going to be the most amazing game they've released since FFX/XII or it's going to be overwhelmingly mediocre.
What it needs above all else for people to fall in love with it is a proper FF story, the kind that only FF can do. You know the successful formula, the rag tag group (it's got that), the varied settings (probably has this), the gorgeous music (definitely has this), the interesting NPC's (got this so far), the mysterious undercurrent (maybe), the massive plot twists (I can see this being the case). Think along the lines of Cloud remembering, the orphanage reveal in FFVIII (whether or not you likrd it), Zidane finding out his true nature, Tidus finding out HIS true nature - we need a story like that again because we haven't had one since X and IMO those stories are what has made the FF franchise so successful. Sure we like the gameplay, but I think most of us agree that when it comes to FF the story is what counts. The problem is that that kind of story seems to have left the building with Sakaguchi.
Seriously the demo was pretty good, and since we know for sure that was just a small taster with a lot of features locked off, I'm not one bit worried about my enjoyment of the end product. What I am worried about is the seeming change in tone and direction this has taken, which was inevitable with the name and platform change. The thing is, what excited me most about this game was the incredibly dark nihilistic tone it seemed to have in all of its original forms as Versus XIII, so I'm simultaneously bracing myself for the tone shift and a product that is less than what I expect it to be.
My hopes are still high, and so is the mental bar I've set. We know they had the story and scenario worked out prior to the new development cycle, and we know they had assets. I think it's likely they've done away with the assets completely and just taken the ideas (how much wasted time is that seriously) but they've stuck with the story and scenarios and just tweaked it in a few places.
This goes back to what I said in this thread a while ago about panicking when they were talking about the development stage they're at (I think it was 60% or something in January) because given the length of time they've had they should be much further along. This leads me to believe they really are pulling out all the stops (what does this phrase even mean and why am I using it) with this one, which can only be a good thing. The end product is either going to be the most amazing game they've released since FFX/XII or it's going to be overwhelmingly mediocre.
What it needs above all else for people to fall in love with it is a proper FF story, the kind that only FF can do. You know the successful formula, the rag tag group (it's got that), the varied settings (probably has this), the gorgeous music (definitely has this), the interesting NPC's (got this so far), the mysterious undercurrent (maybe), the massive plot twists (I can see this being the case). Think along the lines of Cloud remembering, the orphanage reveal in FFVIII (whether or not you likrd it), Zidane finding out his true nature, Tidus finding out HIS true nature - we need a story like that again because we haven't had one since X and IMO those stories are what has made the FF franchise so successful. Sure we like the gameplay, but I think most of us agree that when it comes to FF the story is what counts. The problem is that that kind of story seems to have left the building with Sakaguchi.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
But what does that even mean, though? Okay, so we won't give them a "get out of jail free" card. Does that just mean refusing to judge the game according to the timescale it was actually developed under? But who does that hurt but yourself? It just strikes me as being determined to be dissatisfied because you're annoyed that it was announced so long ago.
Why does the timescale even matter anyway? If it's a good game, it's a good game. If it's a bad game, it's a bad game. If it's neither, it's neither. Why, if you end up enjoying the game, would you split hairs by saying "Well...it was good. But it wasn't a decade good."
I fully agree that it was really stupid of them to announce a game they had neither the resources nor the intention to really work on in the near future. But...what does that have to do with the game? It's not like I have money tied up in it. I guess there were people that bought a PS3 just for it, but, in addition to being a dumb thing to do, if they managed to not get enjoyment out the huge amount of great games that game out for that system...again, they're just being obstinate for it's own sake.
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
I never said anything about judging the game on its development cycle.
This is solely about judging Square-Enix. Even if it turns out to be the greatest game ever, never forget to scold them for their long-ass waiting times.
This is only the most ridiculous example of them announcing shit too early but it's neither the first nor the last.
This is solely about judging Square-Enix. Even if it turns out to be the greatest game ever, never forget to scold them for their long-ass waiting times.
This is only the most ridiculous example of them announcing shit too early but it's neither the first nor the last.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Well then what does not giving them a "get out of jail free card" mean?
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
Defending the long development time by saying they only started recently as if that somehow magically erases the years before?
ForceStealer
Double Growth
...I guess I'm just having trouble on the distinction we're drawing here. So does that mean they should be allowed to take the time to make XV as good as they can or not? Because if they were to release it tomorrow, it would look and feel rushed - because it was.
We're not holding it against the game, but we're holding it against Square-Enix. Okay...but what does that accomplish? I would imagine Square's biggest punishment for this particular screwup is the unimaginable sum of money they must have flushed down the toilet with this project (a punishment which, in concert with the money wasted on FFXIV 1.0 seems to have caused a shakeup much faster than our decade of bitching ever accomplished). How would our finger-wagging enter into it?
We're not holding it against the game, but we're holding it against Square-Enix. Okay...but what does that accomplish? I would imagine Square's biggest punishment for this particular screwup is the unimaginable sum of money they must have flushed down the toilet with this project (a punishment which, in concert with the money wasted on FFXIV 1.0 seems to have caused a shakeup much faster than our decade of bitching ever accomplished). How would our finger-wagging enter into it?
Lex
Administrator
Force if you're willing to forgive Square Enix for being stupid enough to announce a game then pretend it was coming out for the PS3 for 6 years ("it's still coming!" "these rumours are baseless!" "more info coming soon!") to then pull the shit they just pulled and start all over again, more power to you. Not acknowledging those 6 lost years is literally just erasing history, which most people can't do. Just because they started developing for another system doesn't erase all of it.
What I'm saying at least is that the game should be amazing and it should be amazing now, dammit. Telling me "oh but we switched systems a little while back" doesn't mean anything to me, the consumer. If we (conservatively) assume they started developing it in 2012, that's still 6 years - granted on or off - that they spent lying to all of us about a game that used to be called Versus XIII, which is now FFXV. So for most people - it better be amazing - you can't just flip a switch that says those years didn't happen.
What I'm saying at least is that the game should be amazing and it should be amazing now, dammit. Telling me "oh but we switched systems a little while back" doesn't mean anything to me, the consumer. If we (conservatively) assume they started developing it in 2012, that's still 6 years - granted on or off - that they spent lying to all of us about a game that used to be called Versus XIII, which is now FFXV. So for most people - it better be amazing - you can't just flip a switch that says those years didn't happen.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
It isn't matter of "forgiveness." It just that throwing temper tantrums about it doesn't mean anything. (I know you're not throwing a temper tantrum, I'm exaggerating to establish my point.) Sure we all want it now, but it isn't, so...there we are. Those 10 years it's been in development didn't actually cost me anything. They were stupid and they've been paying for it ever since. That they "lied" about the game's status wasn't really a personal affront to me. I didn't give them an amount of money based on their assurances that the game was being worked on. Would you have an easier time with this if they just axed it entirely and started making a new game?
The game had better be amazing because its Final frickin' Fantasy. I don't care if they started developing it in 2006 or 1896.
The game had better be amazing because its Final frickin' Fantasy. I don't care if they started developing it in 2006 or 1896.
Lex
Administrator
I think it does mean something though? It means something as a fan of the company that we were strung along for that length of time. It's more ammo for this knowledge we all have that they don't care about the fans, or at least if they're starting now, they haven't for a very long time. In that sense, it matters.
My opinion of SE and FF in general is strongly coloured by how I feel it's perceived in the mainstream. I worry for the future of the franchise because I'm still holding on to the hope that they'll correct their mistakes, but moves like the aforementioned reinforce their position as a running joke. FF is now a running joke and I hate seeing it happen, but they've been digging their own grave for years. This game needs to be fantastic or they're going to sink. I've played all of the games and I've liked them, but we need that shiny star feeling the other games used to have .
My opinion of SE and FF in general is strongly coloured by how I feel it's perceived in the mainstream. I worry for the future of the franchise because I'm still holding on to the hope that they'll correct their mistakes, but moves like the aforementioned reinforce their position as a running joke. FF is now a running joke and I hate seeing it happen, but they've been digging their own grave for years. This game needs to be fantastic or they're going to sink. I've played all of the games and I've liked them, but we need that shiny star feeling the other games used to have .
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
So big kerfuffle at tumblr over the fact that Tabata said:
Tumblrettes have been threatening to vandalize SE's office and send them shit in the post, for daring to suggest that the dynamics of an all-male group might change when one or more women are introduced into the mix.
Here's what I said, because I like poking the hornet's nest:
Tumblrettes have been threatening to vandalize SE's office and send them shit in the post, for daring to suggest that the dynamics of an all-male group might change when one or more women are introduced into the mix.
Here's what I said, because I like poking the hornet's nest:
Kuja9001
Ooooh Salty!
- AKA
- roxas9001, Krat0s9001, DarkSlayerZero
There's some truth to this.
I can actually relate to this
Let's say i'm with my group of friends and we're talking about "bangable women"
and a nearby female enters the convo, it'll instantly turn awkward for me at least and we would most likely just drop the subject right there.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Not that there aren't folks who overreact to every goddamn thing on tumblr, but Tabata's comment is still annoying. Not because he's wrong, mind you -- it's an accurate comment, particularly where fragile Japanese masculinity is concerned -- but because:
1) It's fiction and they could have worked a chick into a "buddy road trip game" without it being more unbelievable than that mountain-sized tortoise
2) He's just reinforcing what he seems to think is an insurmountable limitation; if he doesn't feel like it can or needs to be challenged, there's little reason to expect him to feel the landscape is any different the next time a similar decision is to be made
3) When he says "an all-male party feels almost more approachable for gamers," he's either assuming this must also be true for females since it's true for a lot of males; assuming that chicks won't be playing the game because of the cast selected; or straight-up decided the game isn't meant for anyone but insecure Japanese males
I'm certainly not going to be the one to suggest every piece of art has some responsibility to pave new ground or anything like that, but if you're going to call attention to what sounds like a problem you're aware of and then say "I don't feel like taking that on, though, and aren't all that concerned with whether my product appeals to anyone outside two demographic factors," you come off looking like a tool.
He could have simply said, "Honestly, I just saw it as this group of guys going on this buddy trip adventure, and saw an opportunity to explore that genuine sense of closeness and brotherly love a group of male friends who have known each other for a long time has. We did something somewhat similar but still very different with the all-female cast of FFX-2, and while I don't think we necessarily have to strive to check off a box on every possible combination of cast members -- nor am I attempting to refute that genuine familial love a group of friends of any mix of sex and gender can and do form -- it just happened that this was the vision that took form when we thought about the premise and who the people closest to Noctis would be. They grew into this particular cast and this particular exploration during this particular set of circumstances.
But that was this time. Who can say where we might go from here?"
I made that up as I was typing it. Who wants to tell me Tabata couldn't have prepared a statement just that good if he had actually thought about this question he had to know was coming some time?
Christ, bunch of fucking amateurs, I swear. If they want somebody who can give them PR that doesn't make even their longtime fans get pissed at them, I can do better than whoever the current failure is, and probably for way less money.
1) It's fiction and they could have worked a chick into a "buddy road trip game" without it being more unbelievable than that mountain-sized tortoise
2) He's just reinforcing what he seems to think is an insurmountable limitation; if he doesn't feel like it can or needs to be challenged, there's little reason to expect him to feel the landscape is any different the next time a similar decision is to be made
3) When he says "an all-male party feels almost more approachable for gamers," he's either assuming this must also be true for females since it's true for a lot of males; assuming that chicks won't be playing the game because of the cast selected; or straight-up decided the game isn't meant for anyone but insecure Japanese males
I'm certainly not going to be the one to suggest every piece of art has some responsibility to pave new ground or anything like that, but if you're going to call attention to what sounds like a problem you're aware of and then say "I don't feel like taking that on, though, and aren't all that concerned with whether my product appeals to anyone outside two demographic factors," you come off looking like a tool.
He could have simply said, "Honestly, I just saw it as this group of guys going on this buddy trip adventure, and saw an opportunity to explore that genuine sense of closeness and brotherly love a group of male friends who have known each other for a long time has. We did something somewhat similar but still very different with the all-female cast of FFX-2, and while I don't think we necessarily have to strive to check off a box on every possible combination of cast members -- nor am I attempting to refute that genuine familial love a group of friends of any mix of sex and gender can and do form -- it just happened that this was the vision that took form when we thought about the premise and who the people closest to Noctis would be. They grew into this particular cast and this particular exploration during this particular set of circumstances.
But that was this time. Who can say where we might go from here?"
I made that up as I was typing it. Who wants to tell me Tabata couldn't have prepared a statement just that good if he had actually thought about this question he had to know was coming some time?
Christ, bunch of fucking amateurs, I swear. If they want somebody who can give them PR that doesn't make even their longtime fans get pissed at them, I can do better than whoever the current failure is, and probably for way less money.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
But pissing people off gets the game talked about.
Anyway as far as I'm concerned what you said he should have said is pretty much what he did say. Even you, who object to the way he said it, admit that what he said is true, so I don't know.... I guess I just don't feel that every single piece of art and pop culture I consume has a responsibility to present the world as we wish it was rather than as it is. Moreover, for all we know this world Noctis lives in is some sort of sexist dystopia, in which case an all-male party is appropriate within the context of that world. It just seems to me that a certain cadre of people is jumping on him not because of what he said but because of how they interpret it, which is entire down to the filter of their own beliefs and prejudices.
Anyway as far as I'm concerned what you said he should have said is pretty much what he did say. Even you, who object to the way he said it, admit that what he said is true, so I don't know.... I guess I just don't feel that every single piece of art and pop culture I consume has a responsibility to present the world as we wish it was rather than as it is. Moreover, for all we know this world Noctis lives in is some sort of sexist dystopia, in which case an all-male party is appropriate within the context of that world. It just seems to me that a certain cadre of people is jumping on him not because of what he said but because of how they interpret it, which is entire down to the filter of their own beliefs and prejudices.
Last edited:
Alex Strife
Ex-SOLDIER
I think that the problem is everyone expects them to justify every move they take.
Guy wanted to put an all-male cast. So? It's their vision. There is no need to justify it and get in trouble because no matter what you say, there's always going to be "that person" who just isn't happy with what you say.
Just for the record, I do prefer a mixed party.
Guy wanted to put an all-male cast. So? It's their vision. There is no need to justify it and get in trouble because no matter what you say, there's always going to be "that person" who just isn't happy with what you say.
Just for the record, I do prefer a mixed party.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Hi Alex! Yeah, me too I prefer a mixed party, but it'll be interesting to see what they do with a single-gender party for a change. I wouldn't want it for all my games, though.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Damn, Tres. Ever considered a job in PR? That was a million times better than what he said. But yeah, I'm not on tumblr largely because all the eye rolling would probably physically damage my eyes.
The way I see it, the Final Fantasy series is pretty ahead of the curve when it comes to strong female characters in video games. I think it's earned the right to try an all male cast more than most developers that do it have. So it's not worth getting bent out of shape about. Especially when you've got porn star Cidney right there to focus your feminist ire towards.
That was a million times better than what he said. But yeah, I'm not on tumblr largely because all the eye rolling would probably physically damage my eyes.The way I see it, the Final Fantasy series is pretty ahead of the curve when it comes to strong female characters in video games. I think it's earned the right to try an all male cast more than most developers that do it have. So it's not worth getting bent out of shape about. Especially when you've got porn star Cidney right there to focus your feminist ire towards.
Octo
KULT OF KERMITU
- AKA
- Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Can't help thinking a lot of this shitfit is due to him saying "boys will be boys" (Was he even speaking English at this thing? Or what? Do the Japanese even have an equivalent phrase?) and we all know that that really means "boy will be rapists" and has nothing at all to do with dick jokes and headlocks and farting on each others pillows to get pinkeye.
TBH I don't think any female character in...anything...ever* has represented me, or any woman I know for that matter. Oh sure, sometimes they have the same skin colour. But other than that? Nah. So why should I give a shit that FFXV doesn't have playable child faced thigh gap creatures scuttling about? At least that Gladiolus fella has got roughly the same amount of facial hair as me
*Maybe Daisy Steiner from Spaced and Dobby from Peep Show? Certainly nobody in videogames.
TBH I don't think any female character in...anything...ever* has represented me, or any woman I know for that matter. Oh sure, sometimes they have the same skin colour. But other than that? Nah. So why should I give a shit that FFXV doesn't have playable child faced thigh gap creatures scuttling about? At least that Gladiolus fella has got roughly the same amount of facial hair as me
*Maybe Daisy Steiner from Spaced and Dobby from Peep Show? Certainly nobody in videogames.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I kinda feel obligated to point out that in the main FF series, there hasn't been one single gender party ever. When it comes to the spin-offs, there's still just as much woman as men as PCs. It's almost like having a single gender party is something new for SE which isn't something a lot of game companies can say. SE has more then demonstrated that they can do good female characters, so I'd only start worrying if this turns into a habit, which it probably won't.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
And FFXV was originally a spin-off, wasn't it? Versus, it was.
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
)Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
X-2?
I think Square at this stage will piss people off no matter what they do. But vandalism is going way too far. I think a more productive way of getting your view across would be to go buy Mirror's Edge or Resident Evil (which treats its women remarkably well, I find, costume design sometimes excepted)
We know almost nothing about FF15 yet, it's way to early to judge, although that mechanic's costume could be a bad sign.
I think Square at this stage will piss people off no matter what they do. But vandalism is going way too far. I think a more productive way of getting your view across would be to go buy Mirror's Edge or Resident Evil (which treats its women remarkably well, I find, costume design sometimes excepted)
We know almost nothing about FF15 yet, it's way to early to judge, although that mechanic's costume could be a bad sign.