General writing fiction discussion thrad.

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

the cumulative effect of all this shipping seems to imply that no bond has any value except romantic love. Snake/Otacon is borderline canon, but I dislike it because introducing a romantic bond undermines a beautiful relationship of mutual respect that is already there.

Yes this x5000. There are a lot of platonic relationships that I find quite touching and meaningful and that gets shat all over when it becomes about fucking. Reno/Rude is one of those for me.

And for somewhat similar reasons it particularly irks me when people shit all over canon pairings just to work their non-canon pairing in, because it's like no bonds are sacred anymore. That's why no Vincent pairing that is not Vincent/Lucrecia will work for me ever—unless it's a prequel fic before he met Lucrecia—because I firmly believe that Vincent has essentially married his heart to Lucrecia forever, and if not even a fictional character can manage fidelity then Jesus Fuck what are the rest of us even still breathing for. In the world of fanfiction, it seems everyone is a fickle whore.

Alternatively, I concede that part of the reason why I don't care about who Rufus is incidentally dating or that some character might have mentioned in passing that they received a Save The Date card from Reeve who they really haven't heard from in two years may be because I really don't care too much about these characters. (And because they're characters that don't have canon pairings to be shat upon.) So it is feasible to me that they would be dating someone I don't know. Still, I think if someone was writing fanfiction about Grimoire or something and he casually mentioned that his son has some no-name girlfriend at school, I think I would still pretty much shrug as long as the story isn't about Vincent. Maybe it's naming the no-namers that becomes offensive because it becomes presumptuous. Will have to think on this more.

 

[Octo]

I can't see anyone making Vincent/Rosso convincing

Only if Vincent is chained up in Rosso's sex dungeon

 

[Fangu]

On shipping

I really really really need to rant about a Valkyria Chronicles ship

I think I need to write shipfic to get this out of my system

(And not comfort shipfic, but problematic shipfic about how problematic and maybe even hurtful the ship might be, because anger issues and racism and trust issues and broken childhoods)

/ off topic

 

[Obsidian Fire]

My policy on OCs is based on the odds that they existed in the original work. If it's pretty high, then I'm okay with them. If it's not, then no.

But I think that's also determined by how good the author is at world-building. There's a difference between convenient OCs (OCs the plot needs to function) and "these OCs are necessary from a world-building perspective" but they've weren't important to the plot in the original work.

 

[Skan]

I'm not really interested in OC-centric stories. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in stories told from the POV of an OC, though. I am fine with stories where OCs and canon characters are interacting in a way that sheds light on the world and/or the canon characters; I also like stories where OCs are used to provide a different or dramatic perspective on canon events. (e.g. There's a great FF8 story about Ragnarok being deadspaced by the Propagators, written from the POV of a crew member.)

But, you know, I'm mostly reading fanfiction for canon characters. When I want to read OCs, I go read original fiction.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

As far as FFVII is concerned, I actually prefer OC-centric fiction, where almost everybody is an OC, to a fic with just one OC who is the best friend/romantic interest of a canon character. I love the whole world of FFVII, so I love stories set in that world even if they're not about canon characters. There's a lot to be explored about the daily lives of ordinary citizens.

 

[Skan]

See, best friend or romantic interest OCs actually ping as "OC-centric" fics to me. Because they're not about the canon character or the world -- not really -- they're about the OC and the OC's relationship with the canon characters.

Whereas a story like ShinRa's Sword is totally down my alley, because that story's not just about the old lady OC, it's about Wutai and Sephiroth.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Only if Vincent is chained up in Rosso's sex dungeon

...Vincent might actually be a sub in my headcanon BUT ANYWAY WHAT WERE WE TALKING ABOUT.

(Incidentally, I knew someone into Vincent/Rosso once.)

On shipping

I really really really need to rant about a Valkyria Chronicles ship

I think I need to write shipfic to get this out of my system

(And not comfort shipfic, but problematic shipfic about how problematic and maybe even hurtful the ship might be, because anger issues and racism and trust issues and broken childhoods)

/ off topic

That actually sounds like far more interesting of a story than a ship-fic that pushes the pairing. This is the sort of relationship stuff that is interesting to read about, to me.

I'm not really interested in OC-centric stories. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in stories told from the POV of an OC, though. I am fine with stories where OCs and canon characters are interacting in a way that sheds light on the world and/or the canon characters; I also like stories where OCs are used to provide a different or dramatic perspective on canon events. (e.g. There's a great FF8 story about Ragnarok being deadspaced by the Propagators, written from the POV of a crew member.)

But, you know, I'm mostly reading fanfiction for canon characters. When I want to read OCs, I go read original fiction.

As far as FFVII is concerned, I actually prefer OC-centric fiction, where almost everybody is an OC, to a fic with just one OC who is the best friend/romantic interest of a canon character. I love the whole world of FFVII, so I love stories set in that world even if they're not about canon characters. There's a lot to be explored about the daily lives of ordinary citizens.

See, best friend or romantic interest OCs actually ping as "OC-centric" fics to me. Because they're not about the canon character or the world -- not really -- they're about the OC and the OC's relationship with the canon characters.

I agree with what both of you are saying here, which is really part of the same concept. That's why I think the repulsiveness of an OC might depend on the amount of relative importance they are given in the story. It's kind of like the stuff that determines Sue-ness in the Mary Sue Litmus Test; "Sue-ness is relative."

(Edit: I am pretty sure that test did not used to reference how silly of a name "Ravynne" is... )

Because, yes, no one reads fanfiction for someone's OC. And we definitely don't read fanfiction to read someone else's fanwank about how their own creation is basically just as important as the characters we know and love.

But a fanfiction that is all OCs is interesting because it becomes about the world. However, I think if these OCs were important, powerful characters that we just magically never heard about, that would be a fanwank turn-off. They would outshine what we're really there for: the world. If they're just ordinary citizens, that's okay because they're used to build the world, not distract from it.

And Skan, where you say that OC-centric fanfiction in which the OC is given too much importance (or, in your words, is a "best friend or romantic interest") is about the OC and the OC's relationship with the canon characters, I would go a step further and say that they're not about the OCs at all; they're about the author. And that's why they primarily serve the author and not the audience. It's literary masturbation.

 

[Skan]

However, I think if these OCs were important, powerful characters that we just magically never heard about, that would be a fanwank turn-off.

*cough*Genesis&Angeal*cough*

And Skan, where you say that OC-centric fanfiction in which the OC is given too much importance (or, in your words, is a "best friend or romantic interest") is about the OC and the OC's relationship with the canon characters, I would go a step further and say that they're not about the OCs at all; they're about the author. And that's why they primarily serve the author and not the audience. It's literary masturbation.

But most writing is masturbatory by nature! Most writing is about the author or the author's interests at some level; you wouldn't be writing if you weren't personally invested in the story, and you wouldn't be posting your stories unless you wanted someone else to enjoy your literary masturbation. It just comes down to whether or not your presentation turns most of your audience on or off.

It stands out more in fanfic genre, because most fanfic readers are there to read about the canon characters, not the OCs. But overall, I don't think self-inserts are that much more masturbatory than original fiction, personally. Whether you're masturbating over how cool your MC is, or how awesome your plot is, or how beautiful this or that turn of phrase is, it's still ... masturbation.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

*cough*Genesis&Angeal*cough*

...I thought of them.

But most writing is masturbatory by nature! Most writing is about the author or the author's interests at some level; you wouldn't be writing if you weren't personally invested in the story, and you wouldn't be posting your stories unless you wanted someone else to enjoy your literary masturbation. It just comes down to whether or not your presentation turns most of your audience on or off.

No, I think it's closer to sex. Primarily you're doing it to please yourself, sure, but you do have a goal of pleasing the other, too. And you want to put on a good performance for them and all that. You do care about whether or not they're enjoying themselves. Also, your enjoyment of it is directly tied to their enjoyment of it. And sometimes tied to your own sense of your proficiency and how awesome at this you are.

But with what I call "literary masturbation," the author is just getting themselves off and no one else is getting off on it.

Whether you're masturbating over how cool your MC is, or how awesome your plot is, or how beautiful this or that turn of phrase is, it's still ... masturbation.

At the expense of other, more explicit, possibly better metaphors, I'd say that's more like when you're going at it and you catch a glimpse of your reflection and you're like "Aw fuck yeah I'm such a sexy beast, look at me. Damn, when did I get so sexy?"

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Incidentally, that Mary Sue Test site has some other pretty nifty resources: http://www.springhole.net/writing/characterization.htm

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Unfortunately they use "xir" as their pronoun of choice, which makes it almost impossible to read without laughing. What's wrong with the people's choice, singular they?

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Lol yeah, but I guess because it's a website about writing, they're grammar sticklers? They do explain that they don't use "he/she" because it gets too repetitive or whatever. I just replace the "xir" with "him" or "hr" in my head depending on the gender of the character I'm thinking of.

Then again, other facets of that website do scream "social justice warrior" to me. Still, if you can get past that, there are useful bits.

 

[Super Mario]

Ok, I've begun writing a Light Novel style series from one of my old projects back in 2010 which I left lying for years now. I'm experimenting with each chapter and I'm willing to post it up here but unfortunately it's not related to any FF whatsoever, it's basically as original as plots go. It just has alot of characters and plot threads leading to a place and incident under many PoVs with other folks.

 

[Skan]

Quick question:

So I bet a lot of you guys, like every other writer, end up writing a lot of scenes/snippets that don't make it into the final version of a story. Or you just write a lot of short snippets for fun. Most of them are shit, which is why they get tossed, but some of them are pretty decent. What do you do with these? I usually sit on them just in case I need to repurpose them later for longer stories, but then I have some that most definitely won't be repurposed. I like them, but they're short (~200-400 words), and I'm not entirely sure what to do with them. Do you guys post these publicly, or do you just hide 'em?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They just sit around on my laptop doing the digital version of gathering dust.

 

[Super Mario]

Mine get deleted, but I do consider keeping them around now for future stories if the same scene is needed.

 

[Octo]

Speaking as a reader, I don't think theres anything wrong with posting them up, just as long as you don't do that thing of having the tags/notes being longer than what you've acctually written.

Also, some fics I've read have been entirely composed of such snippets, often jumping back and forth in time, and I've found them enjoyable, so I think it can work.

Theres a word for it innit...? 'Vinaigrette' I think POAST YOUR VINAIGRETTES FGJ!

 

[Fangu]

Quick question:

So I bet a lot of you guys, like every other writer, end up writing a lot of scenes/snippets that don't make it into the final version of a story. Or you just write a lot of short snippets for fun. Most of them are shit, which is why they get tossed, but some of them are pretty decent. What do you do with these? I usually sit on them just in case I need to repurpose them later for longer stories, but then I have some that most definitely won't be repurposed. I like them, but they're short (~200-400 words), and I'm not entirely sure what to do with them. Do you guys post these publicly, or do you just hide 'em?

They're waste. Discards. Things I needed to write to get to the final result. So they're very valuable, though in the end - they're waste. Deleting is a vital part of writing imo.

They usually sit around in a 'waste document' (if the story is large enough) but I never do anything with it - the document works as some sort of back up, but I never reuse parts of it for other stories.

I've used one of these documents for a 'what I've learned' post though, which was useful.

 

[Skan]

I keep various "shorts" and "dump file" docs in my folders. The things I've written over, I throw into the dump file, the scenes I haven't, I chuck into shorts. Sometimes I will just write shorts to get scenes or lines of dialogue out of my head and throw them in there for future use.

I haven't used my dump file -- it's there just to make me feel less bad about deleting words -- but I have definitely used my shorts doc before. The way I write, I kinda just spew out a bunch of words at the screen, let it sit while I spew out a bunch of words for another story, then I pick the first up again a few months (... or years) later and finish it. Rinse and repeat. That's mostly why I am leery of posting my shorts, because there's a chance they're gonna be cleaned up and used in the future.

That said, I went through my shorts earlier and found a few that I don't think would ever be used or connected with a larger story. They make nice contained scenes and are postable in terms of quality.

I'm still "euggghhh" about posting anything that isn't an actual complete story, though.

(What spurred this: several weeks ago, a writer I know has started posting rough stories that se has no intention of finishing, because "leaving them to languish in my scratch folders seems like a waste.")

EDIT: There's also that thing that happens where you have this scene that's a pretty decent piece of writing, but you're no longer sure you agree with your old interpretation. So you think, "Hey, it might be okay to post this, because I don't think I'll use it..." But then! But then you think, "Goddamn, I don't want someone to think this is my interpretation."

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Quick question:

So I bet a lot of you guys, like every other writer, end up writing a lot of scenes/snippets that don't make it into the final version of a story. Or you just write a lot of short snippets for fun. Most of them are shit, which is why they get tossed, but some of them are pretty decent. What do you do with these? I usually sit on them just in case I need to repurpose them later for longer stories, but then I have some that most definitely won't be repurposed. I like them, but they're short (~200-400 words), and I'm not entirely sure what to do with them. Do you guys post these publicly, or do you just hide 'em?

I guess it depends on the topic and how well it will be received. Like, could it stand on its own as a short story and is there a fandom for it? Because otherwise, probably no one will care.

I guess I'd probably post them somewhere casual without really expecting a response. Like, I wouldn't publish it on deviantART because I feel like that's a showcase for completed, somewhat polished works, but I might chuck it into the corner of my FF.net or AO3 account because I don't care too much about those places. If I did, I probably wouldn't post it there.

I posted one such drabble/vignette/whatever on Tumblr yesterday figuring that's kind of a casual environment but no one seemed to like it which was actually pretty embarrassing and made me feel fairly bad about myself. It's kind of like telling a joke and having everyone just kind of stare at you and look awkward and nobody laughs at all. So I probably won't do that again.

I dunno, I guess there's a reason why those things don't make the final cut, you know? We should probably all just save ourselves the embarrassment of putting ourselves in the awkward position of conspicuous radio silence confirming to us how bad we are.

You can send it to me, though. I'll read it. :3

EDIT: There's also that thing that happens where you have this scene that's a pretty decent piece of writing, but you're no longer sure you agree with your old interpretation. So you think, "Hey, it might be okay to post this, because I don't think I'll use it..." But then! But then you think, "Goddamn, I don't want someone to think this is my interpretation."

Yeeeaaaahh, as someone who likes to reinterpret things a lot, and kind of come up with various ideas and events that aren't really my headcanon, I encounter this problem a lot.

And then sometimes I come up with things just to tell a story and don't "believe" in them at all, as you very well know.

 

[Skan]

Guys, caramelsilver's hosting her annual three sentence ficathon! Stop in to leave prompts and/or do some low-stress writing.

---

I tend to accumulate a lot of floating scenes due to my writing process. Sometimes they aren't even attached to a story, so I don't even consider them "cut" material. The things I do cut are usually cut for relevancy or pacing. They can often be tweaked into a standalone, but I usually don't bother, because I figure they will attach themselves to a story in the future...

I find Tumblr a pretty awful place to post writing. (i) Reading is difficult, because layouts are so customizable, (ii) reblogging+commenting+tagging = annoying, so people prefer to simply "like" posts, (iii) tagging is godawful, (iv) people are not on there just to read fic, so they get easily distracted by the rest of the shinies, (v) things move so quickly that posts are often missed.

 

[Keveh Kins]

This is probably an immensely stupid question but, how would you folks describe the sound of footsteps on carpet? Y'know that sort of swishy, loud but muted sound it makes? Is there a word for that, or a description that isn't "swishy, loud but muted"? My brain is pretty much just shrugging and saying "I don't feckin' know, where's my tea?"

 

[Octo]

Pad?

pad2
verb
past tense: padded; past participle: padded
walk with steady steps making a soft dull sound.
"she padded along the corridor"
synonyms:walk quietly, tread softly, walk barefoot, walk in stockinged feet, walk in slippers, shuffle, soft-shoe "I make no noise as I pad along towards the bedroom"

Or I dunno, you could say 'the sound of muted footfalls' or summat?

 

[Keveh Kins]

Even fictional carpets are a pain in the arse ¬_¬ Muted footfalls wouldn't be a bad one actually. The line's basically a "The room was quiet but for the "swishy, loud but muted" of the carpet blahrgblahrgblahrg."

...I may have to install wooden floors. It's probably not that important to be honest, it's just annoying me because I know there's some way of describing it how I want to describe it and I just can't think of it. Blehrg. But cheers Octo, I'm totally gonna steal muted footfalls