Yes, and no. Vincent was unlucky but I don't know if they'd see it like that. I would hazard a guess that people who do this kind of dangerous job, where survival depends on making a series of correct judgement calls, would see his misfortune as something he brought on himself: he fell in love with the wrong girl, in the wrong place; he dropped his guard at the wrong time. From their point of view, he allowed his feelings to cloud his judgement. Tseng never made this mistake. And neither did Rude, unless you count his refusal to ever hit Tifa an error of judgement. I mean, if it's luck, then anybody can get unlucky, but I think the Turks would prefer to believe that these dangerous situations can be controlled if you're smart and skilful enough.
Yes, and no. Vincent was unlucky but I don't know if they'd see it like that. I would hazard a guess that people who do this kind of dangerous job, where survival depends on making a series of correct judgement calls, would see his misfortune as something he brought on himself: he fell in love with the wrong girl, in the wrong place; he dropped his guard at the wrong time. From their point of view, he allowed his feelings to cloud his judgement. Tseng never made this mistake. And neither did Rude, unless you count his refusal to ever hit Tifa an error of judgement. I mean, if it's luck, then anybody can get unlucky, but I think the Turks would prefer to believe that these dangerous situations can be controlled if you're smart and skilful enough.
I really disagree. The only reason the Turks are still the Turks is because after Shinra decided to have them all killed they then recinded that decision and offered them mercy if they took care of Veld. Tseng then pretended to shot Veld and his daughter. As far as I know, Tseng did nothing to make that opportunity to save his and his teams lives happen, he was just particularly quick to take it when it pretended itself. That's blind dumb luck. They were dead to rights thanks to Veld's attachment to his daughter and the Turks' attachment to Veld. Unlike Vincent Shinra gave them an out.
I think they were on thin ice, and it was fortunate that Sephiroth killed the President when he did, as it was probably a matter of time before their number was up. Probably also the reason Tseng had to cave and bring in Aerith finally.
I really disagree. The only reason the Turks are still the Turks is because after Shinra decided to have them all killed they then recinded that decision and offered them mercy if they took care of Veld. Tseng then pretended to shot Veld and his daughter. As far as I know, Tseng did nothing to make that opportunity to save his and his teams lives happen, he was just particularly quick to take it when it pretended itself. That's blind dumb luck. They were dead to rights thanks to Veld's attachment to his daughter and the Turks' attachment to Veld. Unlike Vincent Shinra gave them an out.
I agree with your analysis of the situation (I think? I don't know the Turks that well), but keep in mind that the reality of the situation might not match up with how characters perceive it. There's always going to be luck involved, but I think there's a tendency for certain character types to believe they can make their own luck (whether it's because they're delusional or because it's the only way they can function in their job). I don't know if there's enough in the Compilation to make general statements about character worldviews though, and you can probably write them a number of different ways in terms of life philosophy.
Minato, I don't see how your argument contradicts what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Turks don't believe in luck*. They believe you make your own luck. If you're unlucky, it's because you screwed up. It doesn't matter whether this belief is objectively true or not; what matters is that they believe it. And I like to think that they believe this because it makes their lives easier: it's easier to go into dangerous situations if you believe you'll survive if you are skilful and smart enough. In other words, they trust to themselves, not to luck. And it therefore follows that when disaster befalls someone like Vincent, they would reason that he brought it himself rather than that he was "just unlucky".
Obviously this is all my head canon. But there is nothing in canon to contradict it or even hint against it.
*In any case, it was not dumb luck that the opportunity to rescue Veld fell into Tseng's lap. After Veld and Elfe were shot they were taken away in a truck driven by Shinra soldiers - the same soldiers who brought the last-minute order saying that the Turks would be reprieved if Tseng killed Veld and his daughter. These soldiers must have been in on the plan, and there must have been people in the back of truck ready and waiting with phoenix downs etc..., to revive Veld and Elfe. In other words, the whole thing was a carefully planned operation, not an unexpected, spur of the moment stroke of dumb luck. As for who was in on the plan, who originated it, and who exactly those soldiers in the truck were... that's a matter for head canon. But there was nothing lucky about it.
I suppose, though. you could say the Turks were lucky that the squadron leader of the platoon that had been about to shoot them didn't check to make sure that Veld and Elfe were 100% dead before allowing them to be taken away.
I mean, there is no way Tseng could have said to himself, "Wow, here's a lucky chance for us. All I have to do is pretend to shoot Veld and Elfe...." and think he could actually get away with it, not unless he had allies planted there to help him - allies which did not include Reno and Rude, who were convinced Tseng had actually shot Veld.
And why would Shinra want to give them an out, anyway? If they're so useless?
I kind of think you guys are overplaying the significance that Vincent Valentine would have to any subsequent Turks who never knew him. I don't think the guy's in history books.
Once Reno, Rude, Elena, and Tseng met him in game and presumably, at some point, learned that he used to be a Turk, do you really think they're sparing this many thoughts for Vincent? The four of them all have plenty of other knowledge of Turks past and present and lots of cautionary tales and other such anecdotes that we don't know about. Vincent probably isn't anyone that special to them, aside from the initial "Whoa that red cape guy with AVALANCHE used to be a Turk? And that happened to him? Sucks, man," and then add that onto the pile of 7,777 other sucky things they know about that have happened to Turks.
If you want to write him as super-competent, be my guest. I'm not saying you can't; he probably is passably competent most of the times, because Turks have to draw the line somewhere, no? But I think it might behoove fan writers to reconsider some of their assumptions about characters once every blue moon, not only because it provides great fic-material, but also because it gives you some (different) insight into the characters that you wouldn't get otherwise in an echo chamber of head canon and fanon.
You could say, "Oh, it's just bad storytelling. The authors obviously intended X and not Y," and continue on your merry way. But don't you think that disconnect between the show and tell is one of the best places to pry open a story and get some really insightful material?
I'm not sure who said this or to whom or in what post, because it seems to have vanished, but it sounds like it was addressed to me and I'm not sure if I was meant to address this.
I was using Vincent as an example, but making more of a general statement about how certain fanon and headcanon tends to stick even when there's a.) no evidence to support said fanon/headcanon, or b.) canon evidence contradicting the fanon/headcanon. As certain fanon/headcanon becomes more popular (or sticks in your head), it eventually limits characterization and/or worldbuilding opportunities.
I'll refrain from mentioning General Sephiroth again, and point to another example: Cloud was bullied in Nibelheim! But if you go back through the scripts and even the beta scripts, you'll realize that Tifa actually says that it was Cloud who tended to pick fights with other kids, not the other way around. One could still spin this into a bullying episode, but I think it would be interesting if someone explored the idea of Cloud as the instigator of fights and what effect that has on his character.
Another interesting tidbit that I'm frankly surprised people haven't noticed (given fandom's general propensity for "yayyy, badass female characters!!!") is that Zangan probably didn't teach Tifa all that much. It's heavily implied that he only began teaching Tifa shortly before the Nibelheim incident broke out. After that, we know he dropped her off at Midgar and disappeared off the face of the Planet, so she either taught herself a lot of martial arts or she had someone else (in Midgar) teach it to her. Given that no other teacher is ever mentioned, I could be convinced that she learned a lot of it by herself.
(And yes, "Vincent is a super-competent Turk legend" is a pretty popular piece of fanon.)
You make an interesting observation about Tifa, Skan. In addition to not having taught Tifa for very long, he has students all over the world so he probably doesn't see her all that often. He's a bit of a throwaway NPC who has a lot of unused potential himself. In my head canon Tifa spent a lot of time working out at the Big Bros gym. I say this because it's the only martial studio we know about. There was probably a place she could go train at in Sector 7, but I like to use what I know.
(And yes, "Vincent is a super-competent Turk legend" is a pretty popular piece of fanon.)
Ravynne, your comments reminded me of something else I often wonder about, and which I know you've thought about: just how widely known are Avalanche and the role they played in saving the planet? Reeve - the only one of them who never put his life on the line - has risen to be the de facto chief administrator of the world, but the rest of them have gone back to their old jobs or returned to obscurity, and they seem to be happy that way. In "Case of Yuffie", Yuffie goes back to Wutai and boasts about having saved the planet, but nobody cares. Partly, of course, this is because they are wrestling with the after-effects of Holy and with the "Midgar disease". For all their superpowers, Avalanche aren't superheroes, but ordinary men and women, and whenever the planet is not in crisis they go about their ordinary hum-drum lives.
I understand why the scriptwriters wanted to give Vincent a cameo in BC - and they handled it fairly well, giving Veld a valid reason to leave the mansion without having any kind of meaningful conversation with his unnaturally youthful ex-partner... But it strains credulity that the player Turk would not have told Tseng that she and Veld met Veld's erstwhile partner sleeping in a coffin in the Shinra mansion. That's too good a story to keep to yourself, plus Tseng really needs to know. Of course it would have been almost impossible for Tseng and the Turks to gain access to the mansion after Zack and Cloud broke out, but you'd think he would, at the very least, be eaten up with curiosity as to who this "Vincent" was.
I was using Vincent as an example, but making more of a general statement about how certain fanon and headcanon tends to stick even when there's a.) no evidence to support said fanon/headcanon, or b.) canon evidence contradicting the fanon/headcanon. As certain fanon/headcanon becomes more popular (or sticks in your head), it eventually limits characterization and/or worldbuilding opportunities.
Assuming you're claiming responsibility for that "You can write him as super-competent if you want," line (or whoever said this to me), and if you meant that about me personally: I have never written him as "super-competent," just "Turk-average level of competence with above-average shooting skills," and I somewhat take offense to the implication that any of the way that I portray any character is because I "want" to. I don't write him that way because I "want" to; I write him that way because that is the inference I made from several canon clues. Could I decide to one day subvert these inferences, look to see what other inferences can be made, and write him totally differently? Sure, and I could also write an AU in which he was formerly a circus performer; there's nothing in canon that says he wasn't. But since I do not think that very likely, I will probably never spend the time writing that interpretation. I have certainly explored "alternative explanation" routes for all of my favorite characters, and written some of them, and I think any implication that any of them are too precious to me to deconstruct is a little out of line, especially given that I have always taken great care to do just that.
We could all come up with one million and one ways in which each of these characters could be interpreted. I generally consider as many as possible but only stick to the 2-3 most likely.
(And yes, "Vincent is a super-competent Turk legend" is a pretty popular piece of fanon.)
Is it? I'm kind of wondering now why I don't seem to encounter this as much as you guys. Maybe he is portrayed that way more often by writers of Turk fanfiction than Vincent fanfiction? Because now that I think of it, the only fanfics in which I can recall seeing him portrayed as any sort of Turk legend were fics about the current Turks that mentioned him—with the odd "This is Turk!Vincent as a badass" interpretation on his past by Vincent writers who probably know they are reaching. (Which is definitely fun to read but always feels rather AU to me.) I think Turk!Vincent-centric fanfiction tends to take a more in-depth, nuanced approach to him, and the portrayals of him as cocky bad ass are pretty rare. They're even rarer post-DoC.
But that's just good fun.
I mean, the guy definitely had to have some level of competence and combat ability that was impressive enough to get him hired and hold that job for a while. But I don't see him as being any more legendary than any of, say, Lic's BC Turks—and I don't mean Charlie, either. But at the same time, I couldn't see him getting the job in the first place if he was less competent than them. Even though I headcanon that Grimoire "pulled some strings" to get Vincent the job, he would still have to have enough ability to serve that position.
Lic said:
Ravynne, your comments reminded me of something else I often wonder about, and which I know you've thought about: just how widely known are Avalanche and the role they played in saving the planet? Reeve - the only one of them who never put his life on the line - has risen to be the de facto chief administrator of the world, but the rest of them have gone back to their old jobs or returned to obscurity, and they seem to be happy that way. In "Case of Yuffie", Yuffie goes back to Wutai and boasts about having saved the planet, but nobody cares. Partly, of course, this is because they are wrestling with the after-effects of Holy and with the "Midgar disease". For all their superpowers, Avalanche aren't superheroes, but ordinary men and women, and whenever the planet is not in crisis they go about their ordinary hum-drum lives.
WRO Member: With Jenova War hero Reeve Tuesti at its helm, our organization is
dedicated to aiding the healing process of the planet, as well as
protecting it from any who attempt further harm.
This is a thing that a WRO member says in DoC, so I gather from that reference that the tale of what they've done is making the rounds and all that. I think they are known by people. I just think they also prefer to live their own lives. Aside from Yuffie and obviously Reeve, I can't see any of them really having the sort of personality that would want to "cash in" on their status as a war hero. Tifa and Cloud are fairly humble, Barret's too busy and has his goals set on other things—unless, of course, it behooves him to play up the "Jenova War Hero" card in some way pertaining to his oil business, but he's definitely more interested in that than fame—Nanaki probably quietly enjoys the pride of it, Vincent wants nothing to do with anyone or any sort of attention, and Cid...well, yeah, Cid probably makes sure people know about it. Probably tells them about it upon introductions. So actually, Cid, Yuffie, and Reeve. And Reeve only because it serves his political goals, really, more than because it strokes his personal ego. (I see Reeve as being a lot savvier and more cunning than he seems, while using people's tendency to underestimate him to his advantage. Dude's managed to play himself a pretty impressive hand, here.) Yuffie, of course, wants all of it: fame, pride, respect, privilege, riches, etc.
Honestly, I think most of the world, like Wutai, is just too wrapped up in their own shit to spend any time fawning over these heroes. Maybe they're even a little bit hesitant to do so after they idolized the "hero" Sephiroth and then look what he did. In fact, in Redemption, while the main crew are known figures and most people are grateful they saved the world and all that, there's definitely some disquiet brewing amongst the impoverished people who want to vilify the heroes and resentfully bring them down rather than idolize them. That's the approach I've taken for my fanfiction. Others are valid also.
The socioeconomic repercussions of the fall of ShinRa and the destruction of Midgar would be, I think, global and severe. Not only did the entire surviving population of Midgar—probably the most populated city on the Planet—have to start their lives over with probably little more than the clothing on their backs, but also the biggest corporation in the world has fallen and also they're not producing energy anymore. I mean, just think of how 9/11 affected our global economy, and then multiply that by like 20. Yeah, the specific details in those situations are different, but I think a lot of shit-fan-hitting happened in either scenario.
Then, of course, we can't really ignore that the Planet that they live on would be going through some shit, too. So even areas relatively unaffected by the global economy would still be dealing with the environmental fallout.
In my first paragraph (which was lost in Lic's edit), I'd said that DoC unfortunately provides us with far more evidence of incompetence than competence, and that if someone wants to write Vincent as an incompetent Turk, they will find ample support in DoC canon for their interpretation.
What I didn't explicitly state is that, by contrast, if one wants to write Vincent as a competent Turk, one needs to take most of his behavior in DoC as the "exception to the rule." This can be a tad problematic, because DoC and a few scenes in the OGC provide our only characterization of Turk!Vincent. That means a writer essentially has to build a case for his competency out of extrapolated headcanon, not canon.
For what it's worth, like I said before, I think he's probably passably competent, but I wouldn't stake my life on successfully arguing that canon depicts him as a competent Turk, just like I wouldn't stake my life on successfully arguing that Genesis is a good person at heart who just got caught in a shitty situation (which similarly assumes that Genesis's behavior in CC is an "exception to the rule").
There are tons of valid interpretations for each character, but some interpretations will inevitably gel better with canon than others. And overall, I do think picking one interpretation over another becomes a simple matter of "wanting" to portray characters in a particular light (whether for story reasons, character favoritism, laziness, indifference, etc.). The act of interpretation is never objective, and striving for objectiveness is ... eh.
It's possible Turk-legend!Vincent is a Turk!fic thing, but I don't actually read a lot of Turk!fic ... I got that impression of him from Vincent-centric fics a couple years ago, but maybe there's been a shift in how people have been writing him.
I'm really enjoying this discussion. Skan, I edited your post so that I only kept the parts to which I wanted to reply. I didn't really have anything to add to your observations about Vincent, so I left them out.
Like I said before, characterization drift is a phenomenon that really interests me, partly because it's unique to fan fiction. I mean, maybe people who write multi-volume epics like GoT find their characters drifting away from the original characterization, but that could be passed off as character development; it's their character so they can do what they like with it. When the drift becomes enshrined in fanon as the collective agreement of a hundred or more minds, it's a much more fascinating thing. And it's one of the topics I hope to address in my new role as fan works editor. I was thinking of starting with Reno, since I think the drift is particularly pronounced with him, but Vincent would do too. I'm also looking for people who would be interesting in writing about it for their favourite characters. I'm pretty knowledgeable about the Reno fanfics out there, especially the influential ones, but I'm less of an expert on Vincent, Sephiroth, and Cloud.
Skan said
And overall, I do think picking one interpretation over another becomes a simple matter of "wanting" to portray characters in a particular light (whether for story reasons, character favouritism, laziness, indifference, etc.). The act of interpretation is never objective, and striving for objectiveness is ... eh."
I low that for myself, interpretation is sometimes an intellectual exercise. They say every antagonist is the protagonist from his own point of view. Is it possible to take an unsympathetic character and portray her in a sympathetic light? Conversely, is there any angle from which we can make this "good guy" look like the bad guy? Can any justification be found for what seem to be evil actions? And so on. It's a challenge.
Well the Turks have fanatical loyalty towards Veldt. And the other old Turk is actually called "Legend", that they have listened to stories from back in the day and formed their own headcanon about Vincent (whether it's him as a badass or ****up) isn't much of stretch.
Lic, that sounds like an interesting, informative, and potentially dangerous series to undertake. I hope you get it underway, and I look forward to the wonderful discussions (arguments?) it will spark.
(I would volunteer for Genesis -- i.e. if he ever comes within your sights -- but I'm pretty sure it would just devolve into: "Why Genesis is a huge dick: see Crisis Core.")
I don't necessarily pick interpretations to write as challenges, but I do have (arbitrary) story kinks that predispose me towards certain interpretations: e.g. I want to write this type of story, and that means I need this kind of character to get it to work. I try to be aware of it though, and I try to sit on ideas until the initial "glow" fades away, enough so that I can see the characters more clearly. Who knows if I'm successful.
I do think picking one interpretation over another becomes a simple matter of "wanting" to portray characters in a particular light (whether for story reasons, character favoritism, laziness, indifference, etc.). The act of interpretation is never objective, and striving for objectiveness is ... eh.
Have you considered that perhaps this might be a problem that you're having, and everyone else does not necessarily share this problem with you? I do not interpret characters one way or the other because I "want" to. I look at the evidence and make an educated decision. I find your insistence that this all comes down to personal whims and desires to be fairly offensive. If you want to say that you make your interpretations based on your own personal whims and desires for characters to be one way or the other, then fine, but please do not tell the rest of us why we are doing what we're doing.
What I didn't explicitly state is that, by contrast, if one wants to write Vincent as a competent Turk, one needs to take most of his behavior in DoC as the "exception to the rule." This can be a tad problematic, because DoC and a few scenes in the OGC provide our only characterization of Turk!Vincent. That means a writer essentially has to build a case for his competency out of extrapolated headcanon, not canon.
Extrapolated headcanon? I'm talking about context, not headcanon. Vincent was hired as a Turk. Vincent worked as a Turk. These things are canon context, not headcanon. Given that he was hired for this job and survived in it for some undetermined amount of time prior to Nibelheim, one can draw the logical conclusion that he is not a bumbling idiot.
No one is making this shit up because they "want" to. It's right there in the game. I promise.
Lic, I could tell you just about everything you need to know about Vincent and/or Lucrecia.
Lucrecia is an interesting character to focus on for characterization drift, by the way. There's a good example of the OGC giving an inch and the fandom running away to create a mile. Some people are so invested in the fanon and headcanon that they developed around her from OGC that they refuse to "believe" DoC.
Hojo, for that matter, suffers almost the opposite phenomenon. The OGC seemed to give us an extremely interesting, complex, nuanced character who it was clear was so much more than he seemed beneath the surface. Mostly due to one line which turned out to be a translation error and ended up implying he had far more feels about Sephiroth and Lucrecia than they meant to give him. Then the rest of the compilation comes around and he devolves into a one dimensional archetype.
Well frankly I'd be relieved if I didn't have to write every article in the series. I'm slow as a snail at the best of times. Picture a sloth making its way across a road and you'll have a good mental image of the speed at which my mind works. I think Lucrecia and Genesis would both be excellent candidates for studies in characterization drift - although I think it would be good to have an exact definition of the term before we begin. Also, I think it's really important that nobody's cherished head canon/fanon gets bashed (or even lightly trodden on). The purpose of the articles should be to promote discussion. However, I know that this can be a really difficult tightrope to walk. People so often take disagreement as a personal attack, especially on the Internet.
@ Ravynne: Huh, I thought I was allowed to share my opinions on a public forum.
As I said twice already, I was speaking generally and using Vincent as an example. You seem determined to take what I'm saying as a personal attack.
But okay, you've come up with a logical, educated interpretation of a character that takes into account all the canon evidence, and you're immune to bias, personal whims, and arbitrary desires. Great, excellent, you're better than me, and all the other fan writers I know and regularly talk to.
However, you don't think your own personal experiences color your interpretation of characters? You don't think that you're predisposed to fixating on certain details in canon and thus feeling more inclined towards one interpretation over another?
Let me speak more specifically: You read Lucrecia as a female scientist who has had to fight her way up all the way to the top of ShinRa's science department, as someone who feels slighted by her male colleagues because of her sex, as someone who therefore feels like she has a lot to prove to her male colleagues. That's a pretty large part of your interpretation of her character, if I'm not mistaken, and this workplace sexism is part of what motivates your Lucrecia to do what she does.
However, that workplace sexism isn't actually canon. That's headcanon. And your characterization of Lucrecia happens to hinge on that headcanon.
You also happen to be a woman living on Earth in the 21st century. I would be hard-pressed to say your interpretation of Lucrecia's character and her motivations are not informed by your perspective as a 21st century woman.
Valid interpretation? Yes. Canon? Not quite. Based on somewhat arbitrary factors? Yeah, but feel free to dispute me if you feel like your interpretive angle is not, in fact, influenced by your gender and/or the feminist movement.
EDIT: I feel like I should clarify that, for me, canonicity is by no means a marker of "quality." I think it's important to know what is and isn't canon/fanon not because canon is "better," but because knowing can help writers navigate reader expectations. It tells them what they need to elaborate on and what they can skim on explaining. Of course, you can have a different opinion.
@ Lic:
Also, I think it's really important that nobody's cherished head canon/fanon gets bashed (or even lightly trodden on). The purpose of the articles should be to promote discussion. However, I know that this can be a really difficult tightrope to walk. People so often take disagreement as a personal attack, especially on the Internet.
Much in the same way that I am speaking generally when I say that, in general, people who make posts about how no one can be objective about character interpretations are wrong and have no basis for claiming such a thing, and are possibly projecting their own problems onto others. Please don't feel compelled to take this personally, because saying "in general" absolves me of all responsibility of any indication that this might include you.
you don't think your own personal experiences color your interpretation of characters? You don't think that you're predisposed to fixating on certain details in canon and thus feeling more inclined towards one interpretation over another?
Let me speak more specifically: You read Lucrecia as a female scientist who has had to fight her way up all the way to the top of ShinRa's science department, as someone who feels slighted by her male colleagues because of her sex, as someone who therefore feels like she has a lot to prove to her male colleagues. That's a pretty large part of your interpretation of her character, if I'm not mistaken, and this workplace sexism is part of what motivates your Lucrecia to do what she does.
Wow, no, not at all. I believe I have suggested that as one possible interpretation of Lucrecia that warranted consideration in the context of the specific discussion that I brought it up in. Additionally, yes, I have written some of this into my fanfiction for flavor. I also sprinkle onion powder into my scrambled eggs for flavor but I am under no illusions that it is an integral ingredient in the world's scrambled eggs recipe; you are doing the equivalent of implying that I think you can't make scrambled eggs without onion powder.
I am by no means saying anyone cannot have headcanon. It's practically necessary when you write fanfiction. But there IS a difference between headcanon and logical inferences drawn from canon. Headcanon can most definitely be subject to whims; logical inferences drawn from canon come from canon.
No, but it is a marker of accuracy, and the further we drift from it and/or disregard it, as fanfiction writers, the more we are just writing about our own characters instead of the ones that we share with others. It strikes me as selfish. In fact, in even more selfish situations, people try to convince others that "their" version of the character is the "correct" one, encouraging readers to reject all other interpretations—even those which might be more accurate.
I think it's important to know what is and isn't canon/fanon not because canon is "better," but because knowing can help writers navigate reader expectations.
Hah! But that's exactly the problem with disregarding and disrespecting what is canon. Readers expect their fanon and don't even want to see canon, because someone convinced them at some point with a pretty fan art or a feelsy fanfic that their fanon is better. And then instead of sharing a thing with everyone, they only share it with their tight circle of friends who agree with them and no one else is allowed to play in their sandbox. Instead of logic, thought, etc., truth becomes determined by who can draw a prettier line and turn a prettier phrase.
I find that morally objectionable. And for my part, I think I have always been pretty good about being among the first of people who will acknowledge and remind others that even my own headcanons/other-non-headcanon-ideas are not canon.
@Lic, If by "disrespecting headcanon" you mean pointing out that it IS headcanon, then I will always "disrespect" headcanon. But I do not define that as disrespect; I define it as acknowledging the truth.
No, by "disrespect" I meant saying other people's head canons are stupid (or variants thereof).
I take your point about accuracy. I pride myself on knowing my canon pretty well, although I still regularly make mistakes, some of them pretty glaring. I, personally, enjoy reading fic that I think extrapolates its head canon intelligently from known canon. However, I can't agree that there is anything inherently selfish in adopting a crack head-canon that is only appreciated by an individual and his/her circle of fandom friends. I don't see that any artist or writer is under an obligation to please anybody but herself, and if it pleases her to write Elena as a shy, bumbling, virginal, incompetent fool... well, why not? I mean, it doesn't make any sense, but so what? Who is harmed by it? I always thought that the nice thing about fan fiction was that since we write it for free and it's free to read, all we have to do is please one person and we've justified the effort. The same with fan art. I really, really hate fan art of Tifa that gives her jugs so enormous she couldn't possibly stand upright without a back brace, let alone kick ass - but somebody out there likes to see her like that, so why shouldn't they? Chacun a son gout, I say.
So tomorrow is the official start of my writing course "First Draft". I'm excited about this. If anything is going to get my ass in gear, this will. It's also another course I need for the Creative Writing certificate, so I have many reasons to want to succeed. Hopefully by the end of this course, I'll have another novel finished.
Sorry to go off at a tangent, but it does piss me off when a ''headcanon' or 'fanon' is so widely adopted that the majority of the fandom think's it is canon and/or prefers it to canon.
I mean. It's not like people are that good with their tagging so you could tell before reading if it's going to be full of shit y'know?
Like, for example - people think Tseng is some sort of clean freak for some fucking reason - possibly because he's well put together in comparison to Reno I dunno. But imagine if every nearly fic you read has Tseng as this OCD nutcase ironing his ties and washing his hands 9000 times. Because fanon got out of hand and thats what people decided his character was even though nothing in canon suggests it?
So yeah, the odd crack fic (and crack fics are usually pretty obvious even if they're not tagged) isn't really a problem. I just don't like to see stuff that twists the original, the spirit of the characters/setting whatever out of all recognition. Otherwise why not write an original fic? Instead of something masquarading as a fanwork?
I mean, in the great scheme of things it's not a big deal, but I guess it does affect my enjoyment as a fan when theres this great divide between me and what seems like the majority of a fandom.
I just wish I was a better writer, and then I could do moar of that extrapolation from canon- because ultimately that what we all want isn't it? In absence of more of the original work.
I don't watch LOTR and think 'Hmm I wonder what would happen if Aragorn was an overworked Pediatric nurse and Legolas was his manager?' Or "Wouldn't it be great if the Witch King of Angmar moved to the Shire adopted a hobbit baby?" "What if Frodo was a werewolf?" Cos, y'know that isn't what those characters are about. Those are extreme examples obviously, but it's all too common. And I guess I have to question why it gets so prevalent.
It's all that crap that gives fanfiction a bad name imo - either focusing in on aspects of character/s to the point they become one dimensional caricatures and/or basically abandoning the character/s and using their form as a vessel for bullshit.
^ Welcome to my life. I have way too many odd headcanons - most of them not being very flattering for the characters, and so I mostly keep that stuff to myself. I've been spared for most AWMAGAWD WHY DID YOU WRITE THAT??! comments, but I have had some 'I never would have written her that way... that's, ehm, interesting' and, idk. Long story short, it's part of what keeps me from writing fanfic these days - the lack of good people who a) are interested in that universe and b) who will understand why I'm doing what I do. idk, I keep telling myself not to have other people as my main motivation, but... it would be nice to have some feedback from various people, because lord knows, people's opinions differ. (And that's great!)
I think you should write those stories. I really think you should. I was pleased by your post.
^ Welcome to my life. I have way too many odd headcanons - most of them not being very flattering for the characters, and so I mostly keep that stuff to myself. I've been spared for most AWMAGAWD WHY DID YOU WRITE THAT??! comments, but I have had some 'I never would have written her that way... that's, ehm, interesting' and, idk. Long story short, it's part of what keeps me from writing fanfic these days - the lack of good people who a) are interested in that universe and b) who will understand why I'm doing what I do. idk, I keep telling myself not to have other people as my main motivation, but... it would be nice to have some feedback from various people, because lord knows, people's opinions differ. (And that's great!)
From what I can tell though (and I will play XII some day I promise!) your Fran and Balthier characterisations are rooted in canon, but you havent just gone down some cartoony Han and Sexy Chewie route
I mean, maybe people might not find your fics 'fluffy' but I've never really understood the need for fluff, in fact there is too much fucking fluff in the world
I think you should write those stories. I really think you should. I was pleased by your post.[/QUOTE]
Which? The 'extrapolations from canon' or Witch King of Angmar in Cheaper by the Dozen 2?
Sorry to go off at a tangent, but it does piss me off when a ''headcanon' or 'fanon' is so widely adopted that the majority of the fandom think's it is canon and/or prefers it to canon.
I mean. It's not like people are that good with their tagging so you could tell before reading if it's going to be full of shit y'know?
Like, for example - people think Tseng is some sort of clean freak for some fucking reason - possibly because he's well put together in comparison to Reno I dunno. But imagine if every nearly fic you read has Tseng as this OCD nutcase ironing his ties and washing his hands 9000 times. Because fanon got out of hand and thats what people decided his character was even though nothing in canon suggests it?
So yeah, the odd crack fic (and crack fics are usually pretty obvious even if they're not tagged) isn't really a problem. I just don't like to see stuff that twists the original, the spirit of the characters/setting whatever out of all recognition. Otherwise why not write an original fic? Instead of something masquarading as a fanwork?
I mean, in the great scheme of things it's not a big deal, but I guess it does affect my enjoyment as a fan when theres this great divide between me and what seems like the majority of a fandom.
I just wish I was a better writer, and then I could do moar of that extrapolation from canon- because ultimately that what we all want isn't it? In absence of more of the original work.
I don't watch LOTR and think 'Hmm I wonder what would happen if Aragorn was an overworked Pediatric nurse and Legolas was his manager?' Or "Wouldn't it be great if the Witch King of Angmar moved to the Shire adopted a hobbit baby?" "What if Frodo was a werewolf?" Cos, y'know that isn't what those characters are about. Those are extreme examples obviously, but it's all too common. And I guess I have to question why it gets so prevalent.
It's all that crap that gives fan fiction a bad name imo - either focusing in on aspects of character/s to the point they become one dimensional caricatures and/or basically abandoning the character/s and using their form as a vessel for bullshit.
You write such great posts (you know everybody loves to read them), I find it hard to believe you couldn't write good fanfic. I think fanfic gets daunting when people try too hard, but the whole point about it is that it's just amateur writing for fun (and definitely not profit). It's like me posting my sketches on tumblr. I know they're not "art", and I don't have much skill, but everyone has to start somewhere, and it's not like I spent hours labouring over them. I'm not going to say "people aren't judging you" because we all know they are, and I know lots of people look at my sketches and think "Does she actually believe she can draw?" but I know there are probably others who think, "Well, if she's willing to post that*, maybe I don't need to afraid of posting my own humble little sketch...."
I find what works for me is those exchanges or "battles" where people post a prompt and you can just write 100, or 500, or whatever number of words you feel like.
(*piece of crap)
PS Obsessively neat freak Tseng drives me up the wall too. As does wacky eejit Reno and cute klutzy Elena. Fanfic writers don't seem to get Rude wrong so often, but maybe that's because they don't write about him so much. I also hate it when the Turks' working day is portrayed as an orgy of brutal violence for no raisin. That's just dumb.
I find what works for me is those exchanges or "battles" where people post a prompt and you can just write 100, or 500, or whatever number of words you feel like.
But at the same time, I couldn't see him getting the job in the first place if he was less competent than them. Even though I headcanon that Grimoire "pulled some strings" to get Vincent the job, he would still have to have enough ability to serve that position.
