General writing fiction discussion thrad.

[Obsidian Fire]

Oh. And, @Lic, yeah, said: Yelled. Grunted. Growled. Chirped. Snarled. Whined. Animalistic indeed - in fact recently I've just cut out the "," he [said], [doing some action to put more description in] and just done the dialogue alone. idk. Might be a terrible choice - but I just got sick of all those grunts and growls.

As long as there's some indication of who is doing the talking, it's okay to leave that stuff out. If you don't put some indication of who's talking or they're tone of voice occasionally, the reader can get lost or the dialogue can seem "flat" and emotionless.

I keep finding so many that have the basic plot of 'One specific woman rises through discrimination and/or the noble caste system and overthrows it to prove her worth', rather than 'it was never in question in the first place'.

This. This is the number one problem I have with the vast majority of literature that claims it's "equalizing" men and woman. Although I do try not to hold works to an impossible (or artificial) standard of "there has to be exactly the same amount of guys and girls". Usually I don't care that much about how many of each gender there are, but how they are portrayed. So long as the reason why they are deemed important is because of what they can do, as apposed to that they are x gender that can do something, I'm usually pretty okay with it.

 

[Clement Rage]

Well if Steiner and the Pluto Knights are anything to go by 'hideous male incompetence' would be the answer to that one

Could be canon. Steiner, to Blutzen and Kohel: Wimps like you are the reason no one relies on men in Alexandria!

Steiner is interesting. The only person in the entire game that respects him throughout is Beatrix(even Garnet finds him annoying at times, and he's the only person to significantly clash with Zidane) , but he's an absolute beast in a toe to toe fight, and he's always the first guy to hit the damage cap unless you're farming dragons. Dr. Tot is pretty capable at what he does.

On fantasy worlds, the thing is that they're fantasy worlds, they don't have to be held to real world standards. If you can accept dragons, you can accept gender equality. The Malazan book of the Fallen does it pretty well. It's sort of inherent to the genre that you have to accept some things on faith, and magic makes a decent equaliser anyway. One of the few times worldbuilding was so stupid that it soured me on a book was Divergent, I haven't read it, but the whole idea made so little sense that I didn't try to.

Oh. And, @Lic, yeah, said: Yelled. Grunted. Growled. Chirped. Snarled. Whined. Animalistic indeed - in fact recently I've just cut out the "," he [said], [doing some action to put more description in] and just done the dialogue alone. idk. Might be a terrible choice - but I just got sick of all those grunts and growls.

Some people say to stick to 'said', some people say to vary it, so I just tag with the character names, ie.

"What's going on?" Clement.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Some people say to stick to 'said', some people say to vary it, so I just tag with the character names, ie.

"What's going on?" Clement.

But I find that really, really off-putting. Like a playscript done backwards. Actually, if that's how you want to get round the problem, why not just write,

Clement: What's going on?

 

[Fangu]

Honestly, I would never bother reading fiction that did either. I expect a minimum amount of prose present.

 

[Octo]

I think it depends. I wrote an abortive Turkfic and there was a bit where they we're talking via radio, and I didn't want to constantly have to put 'Tseng/Rude/Reno/Elena's voice crackled/fizzed/buzzed through the earpiece' plus it was a fastpaced kind of scene too. I dunno how I'd feel if it was all the way through.

 

[Keveh Kins]

Generally I've always found that if you put "Reno Said" "Elena Said" for the first few lines of their dialogue, you can stop doing it entirely for the remainder of their conversation as the reader will be able to tell who's saying what after the first two or three lines

For example.

"My hair is red." Said Reno.

"Well done." Replied Elena.

"Less of the sarcasm ye!" Reno said, a playful tone to his voice.

"Ye?"

"Aye, ye!"

"Aye?"

"...What?"

"Do you ever get the feeling some hack writer is putting words in our mouths?"

"....Aye."

...

It's a wonder I'm not published

 

[Fangu]

That works. I was referring to the examples AKA

"My hair is red." Reno.
"Well done." Elena.

Reno: "My hair is red."
Elena: "Well done."

...

Anyway on a general basis, I've found that reducing my dialogue down to 60% when I already think I'm done works well. There's always bits you don't need that you can chop off. Having my characters shut up can really work wonders. X)

 

[Clement Rage]

Only works if only two people are talking, though, unless they have very distinctive speech patterns or the type of conversation leaves no room for doubt.

 

[Keveh Kins]

Y'know when you start to think your ideas for stories are shit and that wee feckin' voice in the back of your head starts trying to convince you that it's not worth writing about because it's going to be so catastrophically shit that the Gods themselves will intervene to make sure you never write again, and you spend an inordinate amount of time fighting with that voice in your head and trying to argue that the idea is worth pursuing and you're already started on it and you don't want to stop with it but that wee voice is just so damn feckin' relentless and you become so tired arguing with it that you really start to consider just saying 'Fuck this' and giving up on the story and going to have a wank to forget?

Yeah, I'm getting that now

 

[Fangu]

^ Shred your own critique apart - as in, shred it to analyze it - to see if your critique is justified, or just a drop in boost/confidence/joy/AAAAA I HATE WRITING I SUUUCKKKKK

Bc sometimes it's a sign you're not excited about your own work and if YOU can't get excited, who else can? BUT this can be resolved by picking apart to carefully look at each part separately. WHY do I think this idea suck? If you start studying this in detail, you will most likely find that a) it doesn't suck and b) you'll have new boost to continue.

Because very rarely do your ideas suck in its entirety. You might be missing something extra that it needs. But if your general thought is FUUUCCKKKK then yes, go wank, shower, take a nap, eat, then try again (Or, take a walk, or don't write for days - chances are if you let your brain do the work, you'll figure out what's bothering you.)

OT: My English skills are being a major foot in the doorway for me these days. I'll have a clear image in my head of a scene and what I need to type out, but I get stuck on these minor grammar choices - and it just breaks me. And then I drop into The Hole where I see no point in any of this writing crap and I see no reason to continue. Usually talking meta with someone (characters, writing stuff, whatevs) helps me resolve this, but the person on Tumblr who tends to pick up my meta rants and reblog them with interesting commentary so that others comments on hers with other interesting commentary is kind of away atm, and will be for some time. I do comment on other people's rants but people in general tend to be all 'who are you' and so the rants tend to go nowhere.

idk.

 

[Keveh Kins]

Managed to get 2000 words cracked out on it and I'm feeling mildly better about it. I think when I don't have a substantive amount written my brain tries to talk me out of continuing and I start shitting it about every possible bad thing that could happen with the continuity, the tone, the humour, the grammar and pretty much every aspect of the thing. Faring a tad better now and glad I stuck with it. Have nay doubt come tomorrow I'll be right back to the way I was earlier, but for now I'm taking me 2000 words and I'm still going to have a wank

Fangu, you could always try getting a Beta reader, assuming you don't already have one? That way you could plough on with the writing and not worry about grammar choices, leave that to the Beta reader to point out and then you can come back to it? I dunno, that made more sense in my head than it does in this post ¬_¬

 

[Fangu]

^ No that does make a lot of sense. idk why I haven't worked up the balls to ask anyone. I guess -- it's because I have some sort of feeling it's taking the cheap way out? Because I assume they'll pinpoint A LOT of things and then it'll be kind of their work instead of mine... yeah I'm weird. Also I don't agree with everything people point out to me grammar wise (in chats, etc.) And who am I, an ESL person, to start arguing with a person who has English as their first language?!

Which is why I'm (trying to) not obsess too much over grammar and prose and rather focus on techniques relating to building the story (where to tell, where to put in dialogue, how much detail to put in etc) instead. The prose is essential - but it's only one of many things I need to work on, and the plot/character/story building stuff is much more rewarding because it's usable for both of my languages.

 

[Keveh Kins]

^Nah I get where you're coming from, not weird at all. Also, on the whole second language thing, you don't need to have first hand experience with dancing to argue what makes for good dancing and what makes for bad, same goes with English. Anybody who assumes you know less just because it's your second language is a feckin' numpty. And that includes you

 

[Fangu]

Anybody who assumes you know less just because it's your second language is a feckin' numpty. And that includes you

Do you really think so? I mean - I assumed it was kind of obvious that an ESL person won't have the same control over the language as a native.

That being said - I've learned a lot and I really like working on my English. It's turned into a big deal for me*. I don't mind being corrected as long as it's by someone I trust - that this someone is correcting me for improvement, and not for... idk I don't think people intend to be vicious, but there's been a few instances where I've felt like that person is trying to 'put me in my place' for x amount of reasons.

And then there are the fantastic ones who go out of their way for cheering me on. I don't know what your reasons are, but thank you nevertheless.


* I've ranted slightly about this on Tumblr, but it's related to how I once had a great love for the Norwegian language - storytelling was my thing, and I was cheered on my a few people that meant a lot to me. Then I encountered the Witch of the Wilds who broke me - I have barely written fiction in my first language since high school because of this person. I have no idea why she decided it was her right. It's a shame because the teacher I had at ~ age 15 was very supportive - but he didn't just pamper me with praise, he also gave me very careful constructive criticism. He was like a dad to me or something. He suggested books for me and really wanted me to read more diverse works. When I think about the people in my life that has really meant something to me, I think of him. I don't even know if he's still alive - most likely not.

Anyway that was a lot of rant for a very small point I wanted to make: Through writing in English, I am slowly gaining confidence enough that I might one day pick up writing in Norwegian again. I once said I'd never write anything in Norwegian ever again but English has given me confidence. I've started writing small stuff on social media where people have asked my bf to tell me that I need to do more of them because they like them.

TE ELL DEE ARR: English and fanfic has turned out to mean a lot more to me than just an exercise of improving my English.

RANT OVER

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@Fangu
It depends what you want from a beta reader. If all you're asking them for is to make sure the English grammar works out, then they're not really contributing anything per say. Now if you wanted them to look over plot points... then yeah, they're definitely having an impact on your work.

Also... colloquial English is spoken way differently then the English that is taught in ESL. As it is, I didn't know English wasn't one of your first languages because you write it on the forums very naturally. So I wouldn't be stressing about your English grammar. *doesn't know if this is a compliment or not*

 

[Keveh Kins]

@Fangu: Definitely, like Obsidian said, you speak it very, very naturally, to the point that's rarely ever noticeable that it's your second language. And a lot of second language English speakers I know have a much better understanding of the mechanics of the language than first-language speakers, who don't really have to think about it much in their day to day lives, not consciously anyway. I know a lot of people who are first language speakers but really struggle with writing English too and who just can't put it down on paper in a way that seems natural and flows well. Don't discount your own opinion and understanding entirely just because someone else has been doing it longer S'always wise to learn from the more experienced o' course, but doesn't mean you can't argue for your own perspective.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Keveh and Obsidian are right. First of all, you very rarely make mistakes and you use the language with much more fluency than many native speakers, so i can only imagine what your Norwegian writing must be like (I mean it must be awesome, but since I can't read Norwegian I'll only ever be able to imagine it). Native English speakers can make plenty of mistakes when writing, believe you me - plenty- but the rare mistakes you do make are always the kind that only ESL writers would make. If I could write fiction in another language as well as you do in English I would be beside myself with pride!

 

[Fangu]

On phone so I can't write much, want to reply more in-depth but for now:

THIS MEANS A LOT.

 

[Skan]

I like to think of a beta not as someone who corrects stories but as someone who helps writers improve stories.

Having said that, it's clear where I stand: I personally think every story out there can do with a beta reader. A second pair of eyes never hurts. You can always ignore the comments in the end anyways; it's your story, after all, and you have the final say.

There are lots of different styles of betaing. To be honest, the biggest challenge lies in figuring out what you want from a beta, finding a beta who provides those services, and then communicating to that beta what you want out of them.

The last of these is key: I swear it's almost like laying down the rules for a bizarre BDSM scenario. But the thing is, if you don't do it, things will become very frustrating for both parties.

 

[Keveh Kins]

Working on this Turkfic where Reno and Rude are, without giving too much away, basically interrogating this dude who's a bit of a character and is very sarcastic and self-assured because he knows the score with how the Turks operate.

S'all well and good but I'm starting to get worried that it's becoming too dialogue heavy, but the dialogue's really the driving force of an interrogation scene. So do I keep it as is, or do I change it up to add in more descriptions and such? The characters move about a fair bit when they're talking, mostly Reno, and I've been putting in alot of different facial expressions and body tics. But that wee voice in the back of my head is nyammering 'bout how it's still too much talk. But so much of the opening part is description. NYAHHHH!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think it all depends in whose point of view the story is being told. If it's third person objective you'e going to have to rely primarily on dialogue, with some facial expressions thrown in, but not too much, just the important ones. If it's third person limited to one of the characters, then you can intercut the dialogue with their mental observations. First person, ditto. Third person omniscient is probably TMI for a short story; imho it works best in novels, although there are always exceptions.

 

[Keveh Kins]

It's third person focusing on one character. I'm debating splitting it into two chapters or sections though. The way the story goes necessitates that the focus shift to another character at a particular point. Methinks it would be less jarring if it was done from the beginning of a new chapter. The second chapter probably won't be as dialogue heavy so I'm kinda hoping it'll balance out a bit. Still would rather have each section with a decent balance between the two though.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Personally I enjoy reading dialogue-fics. I don't enjoy pointless dialogue (a lot of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire was pointless dialogue) but when the dialogue is the story it can be really effective.

 

[Skan]

I'll throw in my hat for dialogue-heavy fics too. The key thing is to not make it "small-talk" dialogue; there should always be a point to the exchanges.

A good way to check if the dialogue is effective or not is to rip it out of the story, put it in script form, throw the script at a friend, and ask if they can get a good idea of what's going on based on just the dialogue.

(Alternatively, script first, write later. I will say that I think this is actually a marvelous way to go about writing FF fic. Because the games themselves are "scripted," it can help you focus on the actual character voice without getting bogged down in the narration.)

 

[Fangu]

Often I find that the words in the dialogue don't matter as much - it's the flow, and what's happening while they're speaking. This doesn't apply to all of my dialogue of course, but very often I'll find myself knowing only ~ish what is to be said, but not exactly what. You'll see notes like this:

"[]," he said, [some action like leaning a hand against the wall or through his hair or something that emphasizes frustration or emotion or something]

She turned to him, puzzled.

"[]."

That will be the draft, then I'll often put the computer down and do something else (like clearing the dishwasher) trying to find the words. Usually I'll have some key words or something that ends up fitting in there.

But then again, my stories are almost always emotionally/character driven. This probably wouldn't be a good way to write a more plot driven story.