GENESIS: Tell me all we know!

[Unlucky]

I'm with Sonic here about the bullets. I don't think we have to overanalyze this.

Zack was a SOLDIER with enhanced abilities --> was able to dodge bullets --> outnumbered by Shinra infantrymen --> wasn't able to dodge them all --> gets shot --> bleeds to death

And yeah, Sonic was again spot on about the shot in the head thing. It will take away all the drama in that final Clack moment if part of Zack's head was missing.

 

[Roger]

Calling every single case collateral damage isn't all that difficult to believe considering the Lifestream (which had Jenova cells in it) burst through the groudn in every corner of the world. I don't know what delayed the onset of Cloud's stigma, but what would explain the delay no matter how you think Geostigma works? As you say, Sephiroth would certainly want him to contract it.

Geostigma is Sephiroth's will ordering Jenova cells inhabiting people's bodies to begin attacking the cells around them. How could Great Gospel have healed him without destroying the cells? The only other way would be to stop Sephiroth's will...which Cloud did later. People caught Geostigma when Sephiroth's will started sending out these orders because the Lifestream burst from the ground and started spreading Jenova cells all over the place 9or from black water of corrupted Lifestream later). Cloud was in the Highwind, how would he have caught it? He didn't, he just already had Jenova in him.

Well for starters, he wasn't in the Highwind when Sephiroth died. He was in the Lifestream killing Sephiroth when Sephiroth died. after that he was dangling above an opening. After that he travelled across the Planet and settled a few miles near Midgar where Geostigma was the worst after that he started visiting Midgar, and THEN he got Geostigma. I never got that the Lifestream tentacles are the only thing that ever spread the stigma beyond already having Jenova cells. People all the way in Wutai got in enmasse. Denze who was right next to someone that immediately got Geostigma following the Lifestream event lasted months without it.

Zack was a SOLDIER with enhanced abilities --> was able to dodge bullets --> outnumbered by Shinra infantrymen --> wasn't able to dodge them all --> gets shot --> bleeds to death

We know he cared s littlw about the bullets hitting him that he felt free to jump into a sky somewhere down the line of that battle to bring down at least one helicopter

I only remember seeing weapons and stuff over where Cloud was crawling, I don't remember seeing any in the vicinity of Zack at the edge of the cliff, but whatever, not a huge deal.

Yeah the argument is that the blood could only be Zack's, which ain't the case. Even if they removed the bodies, they didn't bring a goddamn janitorial army with them, come on.

 

[Unlucky]

We know he cared s littlw about the bullets hitting him that he felt free to jump into a sky somewhere down the line of that battle to bring down at least one helicopter

Not sure if I understand this correctly, but are you saying that Zack tried to bring down one of the choppers during his final stand???

 

[ForceStealer]

Well for starters, he wasn't in the Highwind when Sephiroth died. He was in the Lifestream killing Sephiroth when Sephiroth died. after that he was dangling above an opening. After that he travelled across the Planet and settled a few miles near Midgar where Geostigma was the worst after that he started visiting Midgar, and THEN he got Geostigma. I never got that the Lifestream tentacles are the only thing that ever spread the stigma beyond already having Jenova cells. People all the way in Wutai got in enmasse. Denze who was right next to someone that immediately got Geostigma following the Lifestream event lasted months without it.

Fair point about Cloud. But it doesn't matter about people being "all the way in Wutai" because the Lifestream burst out there too and destroyed a bunch of buildings - and a bunch of people were sick. Ruvy presumably was directly hit with Lifestream, perhaps even passed through her, which I believe is why she was so quickly and wholly geostigma...tized.
Other people got it from black water, so it wasn't just the lifestream tentacles, yes.

Yeah the argument is that the blood could only be Zack's, which ain't the case. Even if they removed the bodies, they didn't bring a goddamn janitorial army with them, come on.

The point is that Zack was the only one on that precipice. No one else died there, Zack got pushed back to the edge of that cliff and was finally put down. But if people really are that adamant that Zack wasn't bleeding after all that, I guess you can pull reasons as to why there is other people's blood there.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Zack was bleeding, for God's sake. Bullets hurt him. Again, why does he scream out in pain and fall when those final three soldiers unload into him if they're like less than mosquito bites?

I can't believe we're really having this conversation, guys. Come on.

the CGI cutscene after battle show him lying right next to other people and weapons.

It shows equipment, yes, but no other bodies. Zack presumably sent the poor bastards flying when he hacked through them.

Anyway, there are little splotches of blood around that equipment; nothing like the giant pool under Zack.

We know he cared s littlw about the bullets hitting him that he felt free to jump into a sky somewhere down the line of that battle to bring down at least one helicopter

That doesn't say to me that he cared so little about the bullets. Says to me that he cared more about the bird in the sky that could litter the field with higher calibre bullets, as well as rockets.

Looks like desperation rather than comfort.

We are told that Geostigma IS Jenova cells, that hardly meant that Cloud was an instant target or change that Cloud and SOLDIERs Jenova cells never had these problems. Hell, MOST of Deepground is composed of former SOLDIERs that were injured in battle. Obviously they had Jenova cells inside them irrespective of this G-cell bullshit, obviously they either never even got Geostigma or found a way to survive it without Aerith's intervention. So yeah, I'd say that assuming that Geostigma targets those that already have Jenova cells and EVERY SINGLE CASE save for Cloud that we actually see is collateral damage, is an assumption. Especially since Cloud was able to walk around with his Jenova cells while people were already dying from Geostigma for most of those two years before eventually getting it himself One example is not a pattern. Especially since, again, Cloud would have been a target of Sephiroth no matter how he went about it.

I'll agree with you that it's an assumption, but it's not an unreasonable one. It's been explained that geostigma is the side effect of having JENOVA's cells inside the body once Sephiroth starts exerting his will through them from the Lifestream (which is why it never happened to anyone before Meteorfall). The reasonable conclusion is that anyone with these cells would suffer from these effects.

We've never been given reason to believe otherwise. Dr. Kilmister in Case of Shin-Ra even says that the cells found within those who have died of geostigma resemble what's found in members of SOLDIER. He says that it's Sephiroth's cells, then adds that you could also say that they're JENOVA's. Very much like what Vincent tells Cloud in the Sleeping Forest during AC/C.

Also, don't forget how Kadaj has the kids in AC/C hopping out of trees like ninja after he fully activates the JENOVA inside them. The alien's cells are supposed to grant physical enhancements, which is why they were used on SOLDIERs to begin with.

So, do we have confirmation that everyone who ever had JENOVA's cells ended up with geostigma? No, we don't. Is it a giant leap of logic? No, it's the only logical leap.

As for Cloud and how long it took him to get geostigma, the point is also made that one's state of mind makes a big difference in how quickly the effects take hold. Cloud was very happy for a long time, so it probably delayed the effects.

Also: seconding Force's point about Cloud losing his geostigma. With what we know of the disease, there are only two ways to make it go away -- stopping Sephiroth's will or his will having no entry in the first place. The cells gave him access.

He has "G" cells. I'm gonna assume that the DoC writers had yet to figure out what that would entail. Genesis' background was decided after DoC.

Weiss isn't said to have G-cells that I know of. Just Genesis's genes. Again, gene splicing is different from what was done with Lucrecia and Gillian.

You copy genetic information into a synthetic delivery agent, then put that into the recipient. The whole idea is to isolate only what you want to transfer.

I have no idea how it works; it sounds like science fiction, but it's something they can do in the real world. I'm going to assume that in a story that is science fiction, they can do it with alien genes.

As of CC, saying that Cloud has Jenova cells has a result of having S-cells while Weiss does not have Jenova cells has a result of only having G-cells is ridiculous, come on now.

Again, we've no reason to believe Weiss has G-cells, and his profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania directly says he didn't have JENOVA's.

I used to think otherwise too, so I understand your insistence upon the idea. I thought it was a big contradiction, but I had to accept that I was wrong too when I looked into gene splicing a little.

We are never ever told that Zack's treatment at Nibelheim had a positive effect on him. We are only ever told it was failure.

You're right, we haven't been directly told that. But given how more mako tends to mean more power, it doesn't seem a stretch.

In any case, as Force mentioned, Zack was called a failure because he didn't turn into a drooling zombie like Cloud (who did become more physically powerful regardless). Remember, the Sephiroth Copy Project was aimed at proving the Reunion Theory; for the purpose of the experiment, "failure" meant retaining autonomy.

We do know that prior to Genesis and Angeal rejoining SOLDIER, Project G was assumed a total failure. Why are we then assuming they skipped out on giving him the same enhancements that Zack and the rest of when they joined SOLDIER?

That's a fair point. Genesis and Angeal very well may have been given JENOVA cell injections at that stage.

In any case, again, gene splicing. No actual cellular transfer.

Also, if I remember correctly, Genesis's genes were mapped for use in Deepground while he was still a child. That would have been before he joined SOLDIER anyway.

I kinda got the impression that Minerva stopped Genesis' degradation by removing his Jenova cells...but I don't know why he would still have his black wing at the end of Dirge though.

I don't know what she did to heal him, but it makes sense. If you're right, he should still have the wing anyway because the information encoded into his genes at that point should remain even if JENOVA's physical material were lost.

Think of it like a candle. You light the flame, the wax melts; you extinguish the flame, the shape of the candle remains changed even without it.

Not sure if I understand this correctly, but are you saying that Zack tried to bring down one of the choppers during his final stand???

There is one less helicopter there when he falls, so it seems that he took one down.

 

[Roger]

Other people got it from black water, so it wasn't just the lifestream tentacles, yes.

Well Cloud travelled all over the world as a delivery boy, no reason he couldn't have been handed a bottle of contaminated water somewhere down the line.

But if people really are that adamant that Zack wasn't bleeding after all that, I guess you can pull reasons as to why there is other people's blood there.

I think he was bleeding you don't kill 100,000 men with a sword without getting plenty of blood on you. He has blood on his arms and facebut clearly he doesn't have any bulletwounds there, as opposed to his shoulderplate and clothes which have hundreds.

 

[Roger]

That doesn't say to me that he cared so little about the bullets. Says to me that he cared more about the bird in the sky that could litter the field with higher calibre bullets, as well as rockets.

Looks like desperation rather than comfort.

It says to me that he could still walk just fine after most of that army has had plenty of time to put a hundreds of bullets in him, even if he blocked 90% of them.

I'll agree with you that it's an assumption, but it's not an unreasonable one. It's been explained that geostigma is the side effect of having JENOVA's cells inside the body once Sephiroth starts exerting his will through them from the Lifestream (which is why it never happened to anyone before Meteorfall). The reasonable conclusion is that anyone with these cells would suffer from these effects.

And again, they didn't. Cloud was fine for most of those two years. His Jenova cells were not attacking his body.

So, do we have confirmation that everyone who ever had JENOVA's cells ended up with geostigma? No, we don't. Is it a giant leap of logic? No, it's the only logical leap.

We have an army of former SOLDIERs living under Midgar, and their Jenova cells seemed to have refused to act up as well.

Weiss isn't said to have G-cells that I know of. Just Genesis's genes. Again, gene splicing is different from what was done with Lucrecia and Gillian.

Well if they reaffirmed that it's Genesis' cells and not Project G cells, or Type G cells, which does not refer to Genesis at all after CC, okay. I thought the implication of Sephiroth's mistaken assumption was that Genesis was not really "G" in the full sense that the Deepground scientist took him for after all.

In any case, as Force mentioned, Zack was called a failure because he didn't turn into a drooling zombie like Cloud (who did become more physically powerful regardless). Remember, the Sephiroth Copy Project was aimed at proving the Reunion Theory; for the purpose of the experiment, "failure" meant retaining autonomy.

We are told that he showed no reaction to the treatment. His failure is not just limited to not being a zombie.

In any case, again, gene splicing. No actual cellular transfer.

And we see Hojo just make Cloud eat Sephiroths clipped toenails or something?

Also, if I remember correctly, Genesis's genes were mapped for use in Deepground while he was still a child. That would have been before he joined SOLDIER anyway.

This was something all of four people above the ground knew about, none of whom were part of the SOLDIER department and Hojo doesn't care anyway.

I don't know what she did to heal him, but it makes sense. If you're right, he should still have the wing anyway because the information encoded into his genes at that point should remain even if JENOVA's physical material were lost.

As I said, Cloud's genetic structure should have mutated by the time AC rolled around as well, so even if he lacks Jenova cells same goes for him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Forgot to reply to this.

We see Sephiroth dick around with Genesis as well. Genesis never put his sword against Sephiroth's and slam him through a wall.

Their fight was much shorter, was interrupted right as Genesis got a hit in, and wasn't a fight to the death anyway.

I'm also not sure why Cloud pushing Seph through a wall is so impressive when Seph was deliberately handicapping himself to using only flight and his sword, and had taken a moment to hold a sword lock to ask Cloud a question. It wasn't like Cloud caught Seph off guard or blocked one of his attacks and sent him reeling in the same blow.

 

[Roger]

Their fight was much shorter, was interrupted right as Genesis got a hit in, and wasn't a fight to the death anyway.

Interrupted by Angeal stopping him exactly because Genesis was making it a fight to the death. Seriously, I wish everyone would stop ignoring that.

I'm also not sure why Cloud pushing Seph through a wall is so impressive when Seph was deliberately handicapping himself to using only flight and his sword, and had taken a moment to hold a sword lock to ask Cloud a question. It wasn't like Cloud caught Seph off guard or blocked one of his attacks and sent him reeling in the same blow.

Sephiroth's telekinesis is overrated, the only two times we see him do it, he's not doing anything else to finish of his enemy. And he wasn't able to use to really blow away Cloud in FFVII anyway. Anyway, yeah it wasn't that great, but he had no reason to let it happen, and as you say he wasn't caught off guard. Cloud was just able to summon more power then him right then.

 

[Roger]

In FFVII Cloud finally regains his true self and defeats Sephiroth, but this doesn’t mean he’s completely freed from the will of Jenova, and in AC he is tormented by the Remnant’s call for the Reunion. [AC] Cloud’s pupils narrow, just like those of the Remnants of Sephiroth. It’s almost as if he can never escape from Jenova’s command…

If at the end of AC, Cloud was definitely freed of Jenova totally then you'd think they'd mention it here.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The nature of Jenova cells seems to be a huge factor in everything we're discussing here. Here's my understanding of them. Some of it might be head-canon, but I'm petty sure it's all mentioned in the Compilation. I'm just connecting dotts.

While Jenova does have cells, they are not human cells and can do a lot of things human cells can't. The most important differences is the concept of Reunion, and their ability to copy their own genetic material over another cell's as well as copy another cell's genetic material into itself while not destroying it's own genetic material.

Reunion has to do with how all Jenova cells want to get back to each other. They are all controled by one concious (Jenova and later Sephrioth) reguardless of location. Jenova cells became part of the Lifestream when Sephrioth cut off Jenova's head and fell into the Lifestream. So anyone the Lifestream touched should have some Jenova cells in them. The only way to get rid of Geostigma is to get rid of the Jenova cells is people. By the time ACC comes around the Lifestream has figured out how to do this.

The abitliy to copy genetic material to and from other cells has to do with how Jenova cells streangthen the bodies they are injected into. This ability itself can be copied into other cells in whole or in part (Angeal, Genesis). The implication of this is that there are now cells with Jenova traits that are not part of the concious that controls Jenova cells. IE, they are not Jenova cells. This gives rise to different strains of cells that have some Jenova traits (S Cells, A Cells, G Cells, and even C Cells). Since these cells are not Jenova cells, they are not removed by the Lifestream like Jenova cells are. This is why even after Cloud's Geostigma is healed he still has all the abilities he gained from Jenova cells. Actually, he'd still have all the S Cells as well.

The difference between Sephiroth, Angeal, Cloud, Genesis, and the Tsviets then is how many times Jenova's genetic material has been copied into them. Sephiroth is a copy of Jenova and has had Jenova cells inserted into him from the womb. Angeal is the son of a copy of Jenova and has been exposed to Jenova cells in the womb as well, though there were less of them then in Sephiroth's case (as far as I know there is no way to manually take Jenova cells out of someone once they're put in so Gillian still had them in her when she got pregnant). Cloud is a copy of Jenova and also has Sephiroth's cells in him, but Sephiroth's cells can't copy any of their genetic material onto Cloud the way Jenova's can. Genesis is the copy of a copy of Jenova; scientists artificially copied over some of his genetic material with Gillian's and the Jenova cells didn't come in till later. The Tsviets (Weiss in particular) are a copy of a copy of a copy of Jenova and they don't have any Jenova cells. This is why they are considered to be so much stronger then they should be.

Side Note: Jenova cells esentually do their own gene splicing. What makes them splice what gene is unknown. I'm assuming that if Hojo and Co. can figure out what genetic material belongs to Jenova and what doesn't they can successfully splice that as well. And gene splice = copy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It says to me that he could still walk just fine after most of that army has had plenty of time to put a hundreds of bullets in him, even if he blocked 90% of them.

Nobody here has said that SOLDIERs drop like civilians to gunfire. They are special in part because of their higher durability.

That doesn't mean that sustained gunfire won't eventually kill them. Really, what do you think did Zack in? Especially in the original game's presentation?

I'm half-tempted to translate Zack's death scene from the 10th AU's Story Playback, because I'm sure it says something about him finally being overpowered.

And, again, why does he scream in pain when those final three soldiers put him on the ground if bullets bounce off him? Why can't I get an answer for this?

And again, they didn't. Cloud was fine for most of those two years. His Jenova cells were not attacking his body.

In that same post you teplied to here, I mentioned that the point is made that depressed people succumb faster. Cloud was happy for most of those two years, so he would have held it back longer.

But, honestly, I'm not sure what point you're making now. This started over whether everyone with JENOVA cells got geostigma, but at this point it almost sounds like you're arguing that the cells have nothing to do with it since Cloud wasn't dying right away.

We have an army of former SOLDIERs living under Midgar, and their Jenova cells seemed to have refused to act up as well.

What are you basing that on? That they didn't all die?

We are told that he showed no reaction to the treatment. His failure is not just limited to not being a zombie.

No reaction to JENOVA, yes. Again, it was about the Reunion. He didn't lose his autonomy and become taken over by the call of the Reunion.

On the other hand, the report said this about Cloud: "Reaction to JENOVA detected."

And we see Hojo just make Cloud eat Sephiroths clipped toenails or something?

Cloud received actual cells, not gene splicing like the Tsviets.

This was something all of four people above the ground knew about, none of whom were part of the SOLDIER department and Hojo doesn't care anyway.

You're missing my point. I'm speaking to why Weiss doesn't have JENOVA cells even if Genesis did.

As I said, Cloud's genetic structure should have mutated by the time AC rolled around as well, so even if he lacks Jenova cells same goes for him.

Yes, that was the point I made earlier, which led to the debate over whether Cloud still has any of the alien cells.

Interrupted by Angeal stopping him exactly because Genesis was making it a fight to the death. Seriously, I wish everyone would stop ignoring that.

So, was he a threat to Sephiroth then or wasn't he? You're arguing the latter but using a point for the former.

In any case, your analogy wasn't a good one. You brought up Seph dicking with Genesis to argue that Cloud gave him a better run for his money. You said that Genesis didn't push him through a wall like Cloud did.

Genesis did land a hit, though, and was about to follow up with an even bigger attack when he was interrupted.

Whether you think Genesis was equal to Seph is irrelevant here because he had provided at least as impressive a performance by comparison. It's just a bad analogy.

Sephiroth's telekinesis is overrated, the only two times we see him do it, he's not doing anything else to finish of his enemy.

Which tells us everything we need to know about the degree of his arrogance, not his telekinesis.

He held back Holy, remember? He broke a gigantic building in half by willing it to. There's nothing overrated about his ability, except in his own mind.

And telekinesis aside, he still has magic he wasn't using and illusions he wasn't projecting.

He wanted to defeat Cloud as a swordsman, which is about the only tier Cloud might be equal to him on.

If at the end of AC, Cloud was definitely freed of Jenova totally then you'd think they'd mention it here.

Why?

And, again, how else do you explain him being cured of geostigma while the other half of the equation (Sephiroth's will) was still in play and at its peak?

Denzel's pain increases just by Sephiroth whipping up the negative Lifestream. Cloud is unaffected. Seph himself comments that Cloud's geostigma is gone.

 

[ForceStealer]

We have an army of former SOLDIERs living under Midgar, and their Jenova cells seemed to have refused to act up as well.

For saying we made a huge assumption in saying Cloud got Geostigma due to his infusion of Jenova cells, you're making an awfully large one here. How do you know no one in Deepground got Geostigma? They're clearly not throwing any of them into the Omega soup. And since Square made DG so freaking huge we'd never know if a bunch of them died off in those 2 years. Besides, apparently they're constantly killing each other anyway, maybe no one lived long enough.

Sephiroth's telekinesis is overrated, the only two times we see him do it, he's not doing anything else to finish of his enemy. And he wasn't able to use to really blow away Cloud in FFVII anyway. Anyway, yeah it wasn't that great, but he had no reason to let it happen, and as you say he wasn't caught off guard. Cloud was just able to summon more power then him right then.

I agree with you here. I understand he held back Holy, Tres, and that he sheered the top off the Shinra building. But the fact remains that all of Avalanche, including Cait Sith, overpowered it before fighting Bizarro Sephiroth.
And not ONCE have we ever seen Sephiroth use it as a combat technique. Not in VII, nor in Dissidia. Maybe it jus doesn't work as well against living beings. Maybe it's some weird shred of honor in him, I dunno.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They broke free -- or he released them -- after he had played with them for a couple minutes, making them feel like he was going to break their limbs off. All while keeping Holy restrained. He was like a cat with a mouse right there.

If anything, that scene more than any other demonstrated just how far above the entire team he was. He's just too damn arrogant to ever take a kill shot until it's too late. He did the same thing with Aerith.

She was a reasonable threat because she could cast Holy. Instead of offing her at first opportunity, he lures Cloud into going after her to protect her, waits for him to find her, and then tries to force Cloud to kill her -- all just to fuck with him! Because of this, when Cloud manages to resist killing her, Seph is too late to stop her from casting Holy.

He is probably the most powerful villain in the series, but also the biggest failure among them because he had victory from the start and spent the entire game letting it slip away a little at a time.

By the way, Seph does sort of use his telekinesis as a combat technique when Kadaj transforms. Seph holds out his hands and blocks Cloud's attack, holding him in place until he generates a sword and knocks him away.

Whether it's honor or something else (my guess is arrogance again), the fact that he doesn't even try to use it in battle should say something about his lack of desperation. The one and only time he used it as a combat technique was when he was one second from losing his body after his advent. The rest of that battle, he only uses it to fly and to show off.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

literally cannot believe this conversation is happening

 

[Roger]

That doesn't mean that sustained gunfire won't eventually kill them. Really, what do you think did Zack in? Especially in the original game's presentation?

I'm half-tempted to translate Zack's death scene from the 10th AU's Story Playback, because I'm sure it says something about him finally being overpowered.

And, again, why does he scream in pain when those final three soldiers put him on the ground if bullets bounce off him? Why can't I get an answer for this?

I already said the riflefire eventually killed him in my opening argument. just empahesis an the eventually. If 100,000 firing at you all at once takes so long to immoblies you, that you have time to cut down 99,997 of them, it's barely an issue.

But, honestly, I'm not sure what point you're making now. This started over whether everyone with JENOVA cells got geostigma, but at this point it almost sounds like you're arguing that the cells have nothing to do with it since Cloud wasn't dying right away.

yeah, I'm saying Cloud's pre-existing Jenova cells weren't the problem. Sephiroth's stigma was largely composed of Jenova cells, that doesn't make every and any Jenova cells=Geostigma.

What are you basing that on? That they didn't all die?

There was still an army of them and they probably didn't get Aerith's Great Gospel to save them, being underground and all. Seriously, it's a story about an army of former SOLDIERs set a year after every former SOLDIER not above ground when AC went down died, if this is true.

You're missing my point. I'm speaking to why Weiss doesn't have JENOVA cells even if Genesis did.

Sorry, thought the part about where ther Genesis himself even has Jenova cells was about Genesis' own abilities.

So, was he a threat to Sephiroth then or wasn't he? You're arguing the latter but using a point for the former.

I dunno. I think he was a threat to at least several people occupying the building at the time. I don't think the "Genesis was playing too, they were friends" argument holds true when the whole reason the fight was being interruped is because his best friend was desperately trying to stop him from destroying everyone, irrespective of how strong Sephiroth is.

Genesis did land a hit, though, and was about to follow up with an even bigger attack when he was interrupted.

Whether you think Genesis was equal to Seph is irrelevant here because he had provided at least as impressive a performance by comparison. It's just a bad analogy.

The hits he landed didn't move or hurt him visibly was my point. But yeah, i'll admit it was bad analogy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I already said the riflefire eventually killed him in my opening argument. just empahesis an the eventually. If 100,000 firing at you all at once takes so long to immoblies you, that you have time to cut down 99,997 of them, it's barely an issue.

So what we were we disagreeing about? I'm not sure now.

yeah, I'm saying Cloud's pre-existing Jenova cells weren't the problem. Sephiroth's stigma was largely composed of Jenova cells, that doesn't make every and any Jenova cells=Geostigma.

The cells aren't the disease, though. They just allow Seph to get into the body and cause it to work itself to death trying to remove the invading substance.

We've already seen in the original game that Cloud's pre-existing cells allowed Seph access into his body. Why wouldn't that still be true?

There was still an army of them and they probably didn't get Aerith's Great Gospel to save them, being underground and all. Seriously, it's a story about an army of former SOLDIERs set a year after every former SOLDIER not above ground when AC went down died, if this is true.

Why would they have died if they lived long enough to see Seph defeated? The stigma was over by then. There are people in Kalm with JENOVA still inside them. They didn't go to the church and they lived.

 

[Unlucky]

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm ignoring the other arguments guys, I just don't have enough knowledge to have my say about them. But I just can't seriously understand why we have to debate about how Zack died. Come on, now.

Not sure what Minato's stand is, but several posts ago, Wolf said this:
(I know I'm late but idc)

Overexhaustion, obviously. Not only he had just finished defeating Genesiis, there was clearly something wrong with him, he was having trouble with grunts.

Wolf, you had presented some good points in this thread, but I just can't agree with this one.

Zack was facing a whole army of infantrymen. He was gunned down. He was bleeding. And then he expired. And you're saying that 1) bullets can't hit him and 2) that he died because he's tired as fuck ...?

Whut??

P.S. This Genesis thread always makes my day

 

[Danseru-kun]

2) that he died because he's tired as fuck ...?

Though I don't think his exhaustion was from fighting Genesis I think it makes sense that a year of running has worn him down. Imagine never getting proper sleep or food while constantly carrying you friend as Shinra pursues you non-stop.

 

[ForceStealer]

Why would they have died if they lived long enough to see Seph defeated? The stigma was over by then. There are people in Kalm with JENOVA still inside them. They didn't go to the church and they lived.

Yeah, SOME people simply survived Geostigma without being "cured" because once Cloud killed Sephiroth, Jenova cells stopped acting maliciously. If you weren't healed outright, you'd still have those marks until your body healed them, but they wouldn't get any worse and would clear up. It is entirely possible that Deepground SOLDIERs had Geostigma at some point in those two years.

yeah, I'm saying Cloud's pre-existing Jenova cells weren't the problem. Sephiroth's stigma was largely composed of Jenova cells, that doesn't make every and any Jenova cells=Geostigma.

What do you mean largely composed of Jenova cells. Sephiroth, who was in control of Jenova cells, commanded them to start attacking the bodies they inhabited. That's it. Apparently your mental state had an affect on when/how/perhaps if you were affected, but that's the disease. Why would Cloud's 'pre-existing' Jenova cells NOT cause a problem?

 

[Unlucky]

Though I don't think his exhaustion was from fighting Genesis I think it makes sense that a year of running has worn him down. Imagine never getting proper sleep or food while constantly carrying you friend as Shinra pursues you non-stop.

Yes, that's a fair point. We can assume that his fatigue added up to his disadvantage. But if I'm not mistaken, Wolf was arguing that it was the main cause of his death because according to him, Zack couldn't be hurt by bullets.

How can his wounds be explained then? Why is there blood? What, the bullets bounced off of his skin and ricocheted to the grunts nearby and hit them?

I'd like to hear Wolf's take on this.

 

[AvecAloes]

How can his wounds be explained then? Why is there blood? What, the bullets bounced off of his skin and ricocheted to the grunts nearby and hit them?

That's pretty much all Wolf's been saying, and what we were arguing against as being ridiculous.

 

[Unlucky]

I don't think I can re-watch Zack's dramatic end in CC and take it seriously after all this.

 

[Blade]

Holy crap what did I miss??????

I read some of what was said comparing their relatives strengths, but that leaves me with a question regarding Sephiroth's um...for lack of a better term "production management":

Regarding how Sephiroth is portrayed in the various media he's graced, how accurate was the portrayal for each (aside from the Canonical entries)?

By that, I mean, like for Dissidia or Kingdom Hearts, how true to form was he? Or were they ad-libbing his strength in those? Someone said Genesis seemed to have the upper hand as far as projectiles went...but if you saw Sephiroth use Fervent Blow or Compressed Earth (his projectile swipes), he seemed to have a lot more range than described in-game.

But that's what I mean by "production management"...how tight-to-the-chest did they keep his status? How much of it was exaggerated from game to game? How much of it was true?

Figure, if Warrior of Light can cross blades with and survive Sephiroth's playfulness, would it be accurate to say Genesis' fighting strength was similar to Warrior of Light's? If that can EVEN be inferred?

I'm just theorizing, for now...Final Fantasy doesn't have a DBZ scouter, unfortunately...and Word of God likes to change things depending on how strong the fanbase is about stuff....so... *shrug*

 

[Lord Noctis]

Holy crap what did I miss??????

I read some of what was said comparing their relatives strengths, but that leaves me with a question regarding Sephiroth's um...for lack of a better term "production management":

Regarding how Sephiroth is portrayed in the various media he's graced, how accurate was the portrayal for each (aside from the Canonical entries)?

By that, I mean, like for Dissidia or Kingdom Hearts, how true to form was he? Or were they ad-libbing his strength in those? Someone said Genesis seemed to have the upper hand as far as projectiles went...but if you saw Sephiroth use Fervent Blow or Compressed Earth (his projectile swipes), he seemed to have a lot more range than described in-game.

But that's what I mean by "production management"...how tight-to-the-chest did they keep his status? How much of it was exaggerated from game to game? How much of it was true?

Figure, if Warrior of Light can cross blades with and survive Sephiroth's playfulness, would it be accurate to say Genesis' fighting strength was similar to Warrior of Light's? If that can EVEN be inferred?

I'm just theorizing, for now...Final Fantasy doesn't have a DBZ scouter, unfortunately...and Word of God likes to change things depending on how strong the fanbase is about stuff....so... *shrug*

Well KH is ireelevant to FF overall. His powers and abilities are similiar in those games to his FF abilities, but not the same.

Sephiroth in Dissidia is essentially Sephiroth as he wa sin FFVII, so quite a bit stronger than he was at any point in the CC/BC era.