GENESIS: Tell me all we know!

[Wolfmania]

She was also braindead. He didn't fight her and claim her head. She was just chilling there and he sliced off her head. You or I could have done it.

Erm, no. What you seem to be failing to realize, is that even if she is sealed, it dosen't mean her body is any easir to cut. At all. Jenova cannot alter the durability of her own body, as far as we know.

Furthermore that is even a supplement to the case, since she was sealed in her real form, that came from the meateor, while fighting the last resistance of Ancients.

Ancients that, even though commanded power to rend the earth, couldn't even slice her to pieces after sealing her.

That's how durable that bitch is. And heck, just look at how hard to kill SOLDIERS are. Cloud in VII basically survives the Northern Crater's explosion. These are guys who can kill themselves with swords. And sheer strenght.

I don't know where you're getting that Vincent jsut told Omega to piss off, but you're right in that it was Omega and Chaos' relationship that allowed him to kill it, that's what I'm saying. Yes, Vincent couldn't defeat Sephiroth becuase Sephiroth would beat Chaos. As we already said Cloud could probably beat Chaos. But only Chaos could beat Omega because of their relationship.

Here's the problem. You guys assume the only way to beat this Weapon is to tell it to piss off, when It seems to be killable by, you know, just destroying It's body or core if you're stong enough, which is kinda what Vincent did.

Only when he reached the core, he didn't try and destroy it, he knew he had other things he could do. I doubt even Omega/Chaos can destroy each-other.

I don't see how Cloud or Genesis could defeat Omega by themselves, that's silly. In FF7 it took all of Avalanche fully loaded with powerful materia to just DETER Diamon Weapon, they couldn't even kill it. Ultima weapon took, again, a fully-loaded Avalanche chasing it all over the planet to take it out.

Here's another problem with the canon. In the original, the didn't even attempt to fight Diamond, so the fact the again forced Diamond to deter and not kill is irrelevant given It's death was already sealed in canon to be by the Sister Ray, and not our rag-tag band of misfits.

The other problem, is that It hardly took a full AVALANCHE to force a Weapon into surrender. Neither Cloud nor Tifa were there when Ultimate ran away.

Which brings us to our third point. the fact It ran away and was unable to defeat the party does not mean It NESCESSARILY is as powerful as the party save of Cloud and Tifa, since, you know, It ran away from feat of It's life, continuously.

It's an unfounded thought, for us to say that the Weapons are X powerful because they ran away from a party without Cloud nor Tifa, and because of that Genesis would not be able to beat them. If It ran away, multiple times, It's because It was not as strong as the party. How strong was It compared to Genesis? Unknow, but from what he showed, he'd be able to beat them.

How could you think some dude with a sword could kill that enormous creature?

I think the problem is how you guys are viewing those dudes with swords as just, well, humans compared to some kind of God.

I find that strange since It's definitely not how the canon portrays the members of SOLDIER, given how their depiction of monsters, the fact they unite the best of all different worlds in power, the fact Genesis was hand-picked by Minerva to be the planet's protector and awakened even after Omega and Chaos and the fact they have the strongest Will in the series going on for them

 

[Wolfmania]

Noctis, promise I'll get back to your post(really like debating with you, btw). I just need to run a couple of errands first.

 

[ForceStealer]

Erm, no. What you seem to be failing to realize, is that even if she is sealed, it dosen't mean her body is any easir to cut. At all. Jenova cannot alter the durability of her own body, as far as we know.

Furthermore that is even a supplement to the case, since she was sealed in her real form, that came from the meateor, while fighting the last resistance of Ancients.

Ancients that, even though commanded power to rend the earth, couldn't even slice her to pieces after sealing her.

That's how durable that bitch is. And heck, just look at how hard to kill SOLDIERS are. Cloud in VII basically survives the Northern Crater's explosion. These are guys who can kill themselves with swords. And sheer strenght.

I never understood Jenova's durability to be due to being nigh-impossible to physically harm but a more regenerative ability. As in, you know, the Reunion. Since each one of her cells can act is it possessed her brain, no matter how some are separated they can reform if in close enough proximity.

I don't really mean Wolverine-style fast healing either, just that she CAN heal from just about anything. Zack was still filled with bullet-holes, his skin wasn't stopping bullets, it's just that his Jenova-enchanced body was capable of functioning despite all the damage.

Here's the problem. You guys assume the only way to beat this Weapon is to tell it to piss off, when It seems to be killable by, you know, just destroying It's body or core if you're stong enough, which is kinda what Vincent did.

Well you've officially lost me. I thought YOU were the one that said Chaos told Omega to gtfo. Omega is the ultimate being of a pure lifestream, Chaos is the ultimate being of stagnant lifestream, therefore, like matter and antimatter, Chaos was able to neutralize Omega with itself.

Here's another problem with the canon. In the original, the didn't even attempt to fight Diamond, so the fact the again forced Diamond to deter and not kill is irrelevant given It's death was already sealed in canon to be by the Sister Ray, and not our rag-tag band of misfits.

The other problem, is that It hardly took a full AVALANCHE to force a Weapon into surrender. Neither Cloud nor Tifa were there when Ultimate ran away.

Which brings us to our third point. the fact It ran away and was unable to defeat the party does not mean It NESCESSARILY is as powerful as the party save of Cloud and Tifa, since, you know, It ran away from feat of It's life, continuously.

It's an unfounded thought, for us to say that the Weapons are X powerful because they ran away from a party without Cloud nor Tifa, and because of that Genesis would not be able to beat them. If It ran away, multiple times, It's because It was not as strong as the party. How strong was It compared to Genesis? Unknow, but from what he showed, he'd be able to beat them.

Or it could just mean they were evenly matched, and the Weapons are designed to destroy as much life as possible so it's not gonna waste time with a couple lifeforms that are giving it trouble. Even if they were evenly matched, my point stands that it took all of Avalanche (I doubt they actually limited themselves to 3 people) to just turn Diamond around. It's unrealistic to think that one guy, no matter how strong, could just hack at something so colossal and kill it. Maybe Genesis in his Avatar form would find more success, but I dunno, he still seems like he'd be tiny next to Omega.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

So I ask you, why can't someone like Genesis, simply because he has the raw power to do that, not simply slash at Omega's core and kill It like the trio likely killed the Killer WEAPONS made specifically for fighting?

Genesis would probably have a better change of beating Omega then Cloud would as he can actually transform into a WEAPON himself.

Tell me what do you guys think is so wrong with that. Does he not have enough strenght, does he not have enough resistance?

My first issue is scale.

Here's how big Omega is compared to Midgar:

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/f/f4/7doc-omega-o.jpg

For some reason, I have issues with Cloud beating something that big by himself and coming out of it alive.

The other issue I have with it is that Cloud and Omega are different types of beings. Cloud is an altered human, while Omega is a direct product of the Lifestream. Cloud can't properly defeat Omega the same way he can defeat Sephrioth (an altered human). Similarly, Chaos (direct product of the Lifestream) can't defeat Sephiroth the way he can defeat Omega.

Jenova. The being who could drive a planet into a bigger planet, walk out and start the apocalypse. The being whom the Ancients, that could channel the planet's power to literally rend the earth apart, could not do as much as seal her.

No, just no. The Cetra beat Jenova by sealing her in the earth thereby preventing her cells/influence from spreading. Compared to what Ilfana says Jenova used to be able to do, she's all but brain-dead. If Gast hadn't dug her up, she probably would have completely died. If anything, this is the weakest Jenova has ever been. It's also been established that by the start of the OG, there is no conscious Jenova anymore. For all practical purposes, Sephiroth killed her and used her knowledge to control her cells.

He casually cuts the Cannon that incinerated Weapons as If they were butter.

I would think this would indicate that Sephiroth knows how to pick his weapons well rather then how strong he is.

So what exactly is the problem with Genesis stopping Omega?

Nothing. He might have an easier time of it then Cloud would as Genesis can actually turn into a WEAPON.

Erm, no. What you seem to be failing to realize, is that even if she is sealed, it dosen't mean her body is any easir to cut. At all. Jenova cannot alter the durability of her own body, as far as we know.

Sephiroth sliced her apart; he didn't destroy her. There's a world of difference between arranging something and blotting it out of existence.

Ancients that, even though commanded power to rend the earth, couldn't even slice her to pieces after sealing her.

That's how durable that bitch is. And heck, just look at how hard to kill SOLDIERS are. Cloud in VII basically survives the Northern Crater's explosion. These are guys who can kill themselves with swords. And sheer strenght.

Seriously, this is Final Fantasy, not Beginning Reality. We have non-existent metals, armlets that give you full body protection, a way to give weapons elemental properties, oh, and magic... Surviving the impossible kinda comes with the territory. And anyone can rend earth if they have an Earth materia on hand. Also, sealing Jenova worked. None of the Ancients were going to give her a chance to get out again.

Here's the problem. You guys assume the only way to beat this Weapon is to tell it to piss off, when It seems to be killable by, you know, just destroying It's body or core if you're stong enough, which is kinda what Vincent did.

Only he didn't. Omega and Chaos returned to the Planet where they belonged. I don't think anyone else could have done that. Destroyed Omega? Probably. But that's not how it's supposed to work. Omega and Chaos have always existed in the Lifestream and at the end of DoC that natural balance has been restored.

Here's another problem with the canon. In the original, the didn't even attempt to fight Diamond, so the fact the again forced Diamond to deter and not kill is irrelevant given It's death was already sealed in canon to be by the Sister Ray, and not our rag-tag band of misfits.

The other problem, is that It hardly took a full AVALANCHE to force a Weapon into surrender. Neither Cloud nor Tifa were there when Ultimate ran away.

Which brings us to our third point. the fact It ran away and was unable to defeat the party does not mean It NESCESSARILY is as powerful as the party save of Cloud and Tifa, since, you know, It ran away from feat of It's life, continuously.

It's an unfounded thought, for us to say that the Weapons are X powerful because they ran away from a party without Cloud nor Tifa, and because of that Genesis would not be able to beat them. If It ran away, multiple times, It's because It was not as strong as the party. How strong was It compared to Genesis? Unknow, but from what he showed, he'd be able to beat them.

I can think of several reasons why Ultimate would not engage AVALANCHE and none of them have to do with it being afraid of them.

According to you, Zack stronger then Genesis. So can Zack beat a weapon like Ultimate by himself? I don't think so. So Genesis can't either unless his WEAPON state counts more against a WEAPON then it does a human.

 

[Wolfmania]

never understood Jenova's durability to be due to being nigh-impossible to physically harm but a more regenerative ability. As in, you know, the Reunion. Since each one of her cells can act is it possessed her brain, no matter how some are separated they can reform if in close enough proximity.

That's not entierly accurate.

Hojo has exemplified in DoC that her power is indeed super-durability and not regeneration, which is why he needed Weiss, who had Genesis cells, a body stronger than Vincent's science-altered one(we really have no idea what Hojo did, but certainly not as good as his experiments with Jenova's cells).

It's not exactly healing since her cells need to be alive for It to work. Rather, if the living cells are separated, they can come back toguether. If Meteor + the Ancients were able to hurt her in the first place, It would be because they were able to kill her cells, hence the Reunion could not work with dead cells. Which means those events didn't actually hurt her to the point she's lose her head or something.

Hence why the fact she survived the NC's creation and the war with the Ancients, is not due to the Reunion, but the fact her body is freaking hard to hurt. I mean, say what we might, Vince transformed into Chaos to fight a Hojo with Jenova's cells 1-on-1 for a reason.

And yet these SOLDIERS destroy that durability with their sheer strenght produced from their will. And swords.

Heck, even discounting Sephiroth beheading Jenova, look at Sephiroth slicing the mako cannon, look at Cloud surviving the NC's explosion, etc...

Zack was still filled with bullet-holes, his skin wasn't stopping bullets, it's just that his Jenova-enchanced body was capable of functioning despite all the damage.

Eh, what? When was Zack pierced by bullets? Last I checked he didn't have a single bullet-hole in his skin even after getting shot repeatedly, even in the face.

Even Weiss, FFVII Cloud before he became stronger than Zack, even Barret no-sold bullets to the body.

Heck I even recall some G-clones no-selling machine-gun bullets from Cloud.

Well you've officially lost me. I thought YOU were the one that said Chaos told Omega to gtfo. Omega is the ultimate being of a pure lifestream, Chaos is the ultimate being of stagnant lifestream, therefore, like matter and antimatter, Chaos was able to neutralize Omega with itself.

Corrupted Lifestream, Nero is the stagnant one, but continuing.

My point is that even though they're exactly that and can neutralize each other, that dosen't mean, at all, that other, stronger beings, cannot defeat and kill them.

I mean, It'd be pretty fair to think that Chaos would die if he was cut in half, no? Hence why he wasn't entierly comfortable with Weiss's slashes.

And Genesis's slashes >>> Weiss's.

So why would the same not work on ol' Omega?

Or it could just mean they were evenly matched, and the Weapons are designed to destroy as much life as possible so it's not gonna waste time with a couple lifeforms that are giving it trouble.

Maybe, but my reading seems more likely given how Ultimate ran away for It's life from a weaker party would It not? I mean, assuming of course the Killer trio is equal to each other, which seems fair to assume so.

At best, I can see It argued the Killer Trio is superior to Chaos/Omega due to being specifically made to kill the Calamity from the Skies.

Even if they were evenly matched, my point stands that it took all of Avalanche (I doubt they actually limited themselves to 3 people) to just turn Diamond around

And my point stands that's:

1) A canon point that has no value in trying to gauge anything due to the above.

2) They just didn't fight It long enough for It to run for It's life like Ultimate.

But mostly the fact It wasn't in the original and they wouldn't change the death even if they added the fight. Which they did and still ran with the Sister Ray.

I mean, c'mon. A party without Cloud and Tifa made Ultimate run away, It's extremely faulty to judge that instance as a gauge. At least to me.

It's unrealistic to think that one guy, no matter how strong, could just hack at something so colossal and kill it. Maybe Genesis in his Avatar form would find more success, but I dunno, he still seems like he'd be tiny next to Omega.

If It helps any for you, think of Cloud vs Bahamut SIN, which was specifically stated to be insipired on the thought of the party fightning Weapons. So there is more than a precedent.

Genesis vs Omega would either end at Genesis killing the host and letting Omega fly away, or cathing up to it as it flies away and:

1) Either doing what Vincent did and striking it's core after cutting through the main body.

2) Cleave It in half Cloud v Bahamut Sin style.

Fair enough I suppose. I just generally tend to take such comments as reffering to raw power. Not just physical, but maical/will power as well. But still, yours is a fair point.

I see. Personally I always just think, you know, as an overall when they're referring to stuff like that, since they use it so often to describe the placement of people in the world.

Well sure Sephiroth wasn't fully trying. I doubt Genesis was either though. AT the very least he wasn't ging for the kill. Rivals or otherwise the two were still friends at this point.

I suppose I would agree that by the end of the fight Sephiroth seemed to be winning, but then as I pointed out before the advantadge had shifted a couple times previously in the fight.

The first part is definitely agreeable. And well, we didn't see the end of the fight, and they were stalemated at the end after Sephiroth plays his tunes, but I believe, due to quotes, that Sephiroth would win in a real fight.

Only one point really. Rewatch the Zack vs Sephiroth fight. Specificly the last cutscene. Sephiroth's smirk had dissapeared by that point and he seemed pissed.

I just watched the cutscene again. And seems you were right. He was probably getting annoyed at that point, which is also probably why his next attack was two-handed.

Well, my scale would look similiar, but with some differences.

ACC Seph>ACC Cloud>FFVII Seph>FFVII Cloud=BC/CC Sephiroth=>?Kadaj>Zack>Genesis=Angeal>Chaos Vincent>Omega Weiss>Everybody else

Only whose placement I'm not sure of is Kadaj. I have a tendency to flip-flop back and forth on whether I view him as being closer Nibel Sephrioth, or Nibel Zack in terms of strength.

Well, I personally have a higher rating of Kadaj due to the fact he cointrols the Negative Lifestream, so and so, but that is an argument for another day, IMO. This post is long enough. Lol.

 

[Wolfmania]

Genesis would probably have a better change of beating Omega then Cloud would as he can actually transform into a WEAPON himself.

What? That's completely erroneous. I hope you aren't going to say that just because AVATAR is bigger, he is stronger than Sephiroth. Or that when Genesis reverts to normal, he is any weaker than his AVATAR self despite having the same powers.

AC Seph > Safer Seph + Bizarro Seph despite being much smaller.

You are giving far too much value on size here, when the creator's don't.

For some reason, I have issues with Cloud beating something that big by himself and coming out of it alive.

I honestly can't see why, given how he beat Bahamut SIN and the creator's directly inspired that on how they thought the party would fight giant monsters.

Refer to my previous post for more information.

The other issue I have with it is that Cloud and Omega are different types of beings. Cloud is an altered human, while Omega is a direct product of the Lifestream. Cloud can't properly defeat Omega the same way he can defeat Sephrioth (an altered human). Similarly, Chaos (direct product of the Lifestream) can't defeat Sephiroth the way he can defeat Omega.

One dosen't need to sned It back to the planet to kill It. Just look at other products of the Lifestream and such. Moreover, look at my previous post for more information.

What's stopping cloud from slashing It in half from the middle, or doing what Chaos did to the core, only this one would be an actual slash. Heck, did you miss Cloud slashing a part of Omega's body clean off?

No, just no. The Cetra beat Jenova by sealing her in the earth thereby preventing her cells/influence from spreading. Compared to what Ilfana says Jenova used to be able to do, she's all but brain-dead. If Gast hadn't dug her up, she probably would have completely died. If anything, this is the weakest Jenova has ever been. It's also been established that by the start of the OG, there is no conscious Jenova anymore. For all practical purposes, Sephiroth killed her and used her knowledge to control her cells.

Yea, and being brain-dead would affect her molecular structure how? Don't you remember her cells were still alive even to the day Gast uncovered her?

She was sealed in her most powerful state, when she had her most durable body, whole fightning the ancients. That's what Sephiroth sliced off. Her body was still intact and alive just as if she was fightning the last resistance of Ancients, she was just simply brain-dead, as you say.

I would think this would indicate that Sephiroth knows how to pick his weapons well rather then how strong he is.

The strenght of cutting the canon dosen't have as much to do with his weapon, rather than his immense physical strength.

Sephiroth sliced her apart; he didn't destroy her. There's a world of difference between arranging something and blotting it out of existence.

He sliced her head off. Which is an immensely impressive strenght feat, given what jenova's body went through and the fact that simply injecting her cells into an individual makes their body super-durable.

Sephiroth sliced her apart; he didn't destroy her. There's a world of difference between arranging something and blotting it out of existence.

Seriously, this is Final Fantasy, not Beginning Reality. We have non-existent metals, armlets that give you full body protection, a way to give weapons elemental properties, oh, and magic... Surviving the impossible kinda comes with the territory. And anyone can rend earth if they have an Earth materia on hand. Also, sealing Jenova worked. None of the Ancients were going to give her a chance to get out again

Ok, and? When we're analyzing fiction, we use what fiction gives us.

And of course sealing Jenova worked, It made her totally brain-dead, something the Ancients knew. It would've been a good idea to try and separate her body so she wouldn't return to her full form.

Only that even the Ancient race couldn't even hurt her. She's...nearly indestructible.

Only he didn't. Omega and Chaos returned to the Planet where they belonged. I don't think anyone else could have done that. Destroyed Omega? Probably. But that's not how it's supposed to work. Omega and Chaos have always existed in the Lifestream and at the end of DoC that natural balance has been restored.

Yea only Chaos could've sent Omega back to the planet. I'm not saying the SOLDIER will do that.

I can think of several reasons why Ultimate would not engage AVALANCHE and none of them have to do with it being afraid of them.

Except she did engage AVALAHNCHE...she fought them directly, and ran away.

According to you, Zack stronger then Genesis. So can Zack beat a weapon like Ultimate by himself? I don't think so. So Genesis can't either unless his WEAPON state counts more against a WEAPON then it does a human.

Oh, absolutely. He'd have to use his jumps to slice It on more areas, but he'd definitely bring It down. Size would be no problem to someone who can jump like CC Seph and Gen.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's not entierly accurate.

Hojo has exemplified in DoC that her power is indeed super-durability and not regeneration, which is why he needed Weiss, who had Genesis cells, a body stronger than Vincent's science-altered one(we really have no idea what Hojo did, but certainly not as good as his experiments with Jenova's cells).

Weiss does not have Jenova cells. The compilation seems to have no idea what it means by the Tsviets having Genesis' genes. But the reason Hojo couldn't become Omega with his own body was because he had Jenova cells. Omega's host has to be pure.

Eh, what? When was Zack pierced by bullets? Last I checked he didn't have a single bullet-hole in his skin even after getting shot repeatedly, even in the face.

You're saying SOLDIER's skin DEFLECTS bullets? That's news to me, and you didn't see a single bullet hole? He's covered in them dude. Watch the ending of Crisis Core. Both in your final battle against the three troops, and in the cutscene where he dies, he is riddled with bullet holes.

Jenova isn't physically invincible, she's just incredibly resilient.

My point is that even though they're exactly that and can neutralize each other, that dosen't mean, at all, that other, stronger beings, cannot defeat and kill them.

Of course not. I already admitted that fully decked out Avalanche all attacking Omega in force MIGHT have been able to do something about. But one dude hacking at something the size of a CITY is not going to kill it.

If It helps any for you, think of Cloud vs Bahamut SIN, which was specifically stated to be insipired on the thought of the party fightning Weapons. So there is more than a precedent.

...

2) Cleave It in half Cloud v Bahamut Sin style.

...

What? That's completely erroneous. I hope you aren't going to say that just because AVATAR is bigger, he is stronger than Sephiroth. Or that when Genesis reverts to normal, he is any weaker than his AVATAR self despite having the same powers.

AC Seph > Safer Seph + Bizarro Seph despite being much smaller.

You are giving far too much value on size here, when the creator's don't.

...

I honestly can't see why, given how he beat Bahamut SIN and the creator's directly inspired that on how they thought the party would fight giant monsters

Bahamut Sin is a fly next to Omega. We're not overrating size, you're underrating just how enormous Omega is. Genesis Avatar might have more success because he has a greater variety of attacks rather just slashing at Omega's toenail.

What's stopping cloud from slashing It in half from the middle, or doing what Chaos did to the core, only this one would be an actual slash. Heck, did you miss Cloud slashing a part of Omega's body clean off?

I did miss that, because he didn't. Cloud just cut Omega's tether to the Mako Reactor. He didn't touch Omega.

 

[Wolfmania]

Weiss does not have Jenova cells. The compilation seems to have no idea what it means by the Tsviets having Genesis' genes. But the reason Hojo couldn't become Omega with his own body was because he had Jenova cells. Omega's host has to be pure.

I'm sorry, but incorrect information.
Weiss does have Genesis's genes, that is an indesputable fact. Numerous quotes from the games and creator's confirm that fact. Furthermore, you're thinking of Nero's stagnant mako in reference to purity with the host.

Hojo himself abjectly stated he tried to use Jenova's cells to strenghten his body for Omega, if you recall. But couldn't, since they took over his mind. Why would he ever do that if then he wouldn't be able to fuse with Omega?

Spoiler: 19:35

And then, you suggest the reason he couldn't fuse with Omega was because of the cells, when he never even tried to because:

1) He wasn't doing that. His mind was taken over.

2) That's ludicrous. You need to kill thousands before attempting to fuse with Omega, and Hojo was in the Sister Ray.

So, Hojo tried to use Jenova's cells to transform his body into a hard shell, yet he couldn't because the cells were too much for him. Then, he wired himself into the internet - or something - and found a body he could use, with Jenova's cells, and without having to worry about that pesky mind-control.

Seems pretty air-tight to me.

You're saying SOLDIER's skin DEFLECTS bullets? That's news to me, and you didn't see a single bullet hole? He's covered in them dude. Watch the ending of Crisis Core. Both in your final battle against the three troops, and in the cutscene where he dies, he is riddled with bullet holes.

I see him covered in blood. Then again the entire battlefield also is, as we see Cloud crawling throught It. He did just plow through an entire army. I see bullet-holes in his shirt, yet no bullet-hole actually in his skin. Which is strange expecially since he was shot in the face, and earlier barraged by multiple machine-guns.

C'mon. Don't you think it would be a little strange for Barret's good arm to easily no-sell bullets after he got stronger, yet Zack's Jenova body got shot to death?

I even recall a G-type shrugging Cloud's shots at it. Heck I recall Zack taking two slashes from Ravens in BC, and regular SOLDIERs stainding in the middle of a bullet-storm and being fine. Plus, Cloud himself simply got up from a slash by Jenova/Seph. The difference between them is not so big It would mean Zack can't tank a bullet. Don't you recall Zack standing non-chalantly in gun-fire?

Jenova isn't physically invincible, she's just incredibly resilient.

I beg to differ, friend. Refer to Hojo trying to better his body with her cells.

Of course not. I already admitted that fully decked out Avalanche all attacking Omega in force MIGHT have been able to do something about. But one dude hacking at something the size of a CITY is not going to kill it.

Simply because something is huge, does not mean It won't die from a strong enough blow.

Think of Earendil vs Ancalong the Black.

Bahamut Sin is a fly next to Omega. We're not overrating size, you're underrating just how enormous Omega is. Genesis Avatar might have more success because he has a greater variety of attacks rather just slashing at Omega's toenail.

Well firstly I'd like to point out what I was talking about was how Cloud - well - walked on the surface of SIN to cut It in half. Near-dead Cloud I remind you. Genesis can fly.

Secondly, if this is a fight, and assuming Omega won't run away, and that it currently has no host, don't you think Cloud can just go for the core, like Vincent? I mean, break inside, like Vincent did at the end when it took off into the sky?

I did miss that, because he didn't. Cloud just cut Omega's tether to the Mako Reactor. He didn't touch Omega.

Which, if you recall, is just as part of Omega as anything else.

Here:

Spoiler: Click

Notice how the thethers are formed from It's body. But perhaps I just didn't phrase It well enough, if so, sorry. Yet, here's someone with a small-ass sword, cleanly slicing the mako construct.

So yea, these swords hurt. Alot.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I see him covered in blood. Then again the entire battlefield also is, as we see Cloud crawling throught It. He did just plow through an entire army. I see bullet-holes in his shirt, yet no bullet-hole actually in his skin. Which is strange expecially since he was shot in the face, and earlier barraged by multiple machine-guns.

Look at the bullet holes on his shirt. Those are exit holes, dude. Outward.

 

[AvecAloes]

I see him covered in blood. Then again the entire battlefield also is, as we see Cloud crawling throught It. He did just plow through an entire army. I see bullet-holes in his shirt, yet no bullet-hole actually in his skin. Which is strange expecially since he was shot in the face, and earlier barraged by multiple machine-guns.

C'mon. Don't you think it would be a little strange for Barret's good arm to easily no-sell bullets after he got stronger, yet Zack's Jenova body got shot to death?

I even recall a G-type shrugging Cloud's shots at it. Heck I recall Zack taking two slashes from Ravens in BC, and regular SOLDIERs stainding in the middle of a bullet-storm and being fine. Plus, Cloud himself simply got up from a slash by Jenova/Seph. The difference between them is not so big It would mean Zack can't tank a bullet. Don't you recall Zack standing non-chalantly in gun-fire?

Um, I'm sorry, but didn't Cloud also have JENOVA cells? How is it then that he was able to be slashed through and through by a sword but Zack wasn't able to be pierced by bullets? And why on Earth would Zack be bleeding if he didn't have any bullet wounds? Perhaps the artists chose not to put something quite so graphic as actual bullet wounds in the scene. I think your logic here is a little shaky at best.

 

[ForceStealer]

I'm sorry, but incorrect information.
Weiss does have Genesis's genes, that is an indesputable fact. Numerous quotes from the games and creator's confirm that fact. Furthermore, you're thinking of Nero's stagnant mako in reference to purity with the host.

Hojo himself abjectly stated he tried to use Jenova's cells to strenghten his body for Omega, if you recall. But couldn't, since they took over his mind. Why would he ever do that if then he wouldn't be able to fuse with Omega?

Because he didn't know that. Why do you think all the Deepground SOLDIERs were killing anyone with traces of Geostigma (i.e. Jenova) on sight while bringing the - as Hojo says at 22:37 in your video - "uncontaminated" back to be killed in Ractor 0?

I see him covered in blood. Then again the entire battlefield also is, as we see Cloud crawling throught It. He did just plow through an entire army. I see bullet-holes in his shirt, yet no bullet-hole actually in his skin. Which is strange expecially since he was shot in the face, and earlier barraged by multiple machine-guns.

Those are exit holes in his shirt, dude, they're exploding outward. (EDIT: ninja'd by Mog)
And why would he be bleeding if his skin just deflected all the bullets? Why did he die? I would say the only reason his face isn't filled with holes is artistic license.

C'mon. Don't you think it would be a little strange for Barret's good arm to easily no-sell bullets after he got stronger, yet Zack's Jenova body got shot to death?

I dunno what the first part of this sentence means...but Cloud has Jenova cells, why was he bothering to deflect bullets with his sword if he could just eat them?

I even recall a G-type shrugging Cloud's shots at it. Heck I recall Zack taking two slashes from Ravens in BC, and regular SOLDIERs stainding in the middle of a bullet-storm and being fine. Plus, Cloud himself simply got up from a slash by Jenova/Seph. The difference between them is not so big It would mean Zack can't tank a bullet. Don't you recall Zack standing non-chalantly in gun-fire?

Gunfire that never seemed to hit him. Looked to me like Wutains were terrible shots. I feel like they would make a bigger deal about someone's skin deflecting bullets. In fact, they do, when Omega Weiss does it, why would think that's special if every SOLDIER could do that? This is a video game, obviously people are going to take slashes and stuff that would kill us. The idea is they're getting wounded in battle, not necessarily taking that direct hit. Why else did they almost never show someone taking a hit from anything in Advent Children?

I beg to differ, friend. Refer to Hojo trying to better his body with her cells.

Yes, because it would make him resilient and difficult to kill, not because it would turn into concrete. Vincent houses Chaos and Rosso still put a hole in his chest, it just didn't kill him like it should have.

Simply because something is huge, does not mean It won't die from a strong enough blow.

Think of Earendil vs Ancalong the Black.

Well firstly I'd like to point out what I was talking about was how Cloud - well - walked on the surface of SIN to cut It in half. Near-dead Cloud I remind you. Genesis can fly.

Of course not, I'm saying a sword is never going to deal a strong enough blow. And Bahamut Sin was only, what, two or three stories tall? Omega's the size of a city, Cloud would be running along it's body for hours. Not to mention his sword would hardly be cutting into him. Cloud's sword is 5 of 6 feet long, that penetrates pretty deeply into Bahamut, it would be like a flea bite to Omega, I'm not sure what you're having trouble with about that.

Secondly, if this is a fight, and assuming Omega won't run away, and that it currently has no host, don't you think Cloud can just go for the core, like Vincent? I mean, break inside, like Vincent did at the end when it took off into the sky?

Sure, I guess. But if it were that freaking easy why didn't anyone do it? Again, the idea was getting to the core and neutralizing was something only Chaos could do, given his equal-but-opposite nature.

Which, if you recall, is just as part of Omega as anything else.

Here:

Spoiler: Click

Notice how the thethers are formed from It's body. But perhaps I just didn't phrase It well enough, if so, sorry. Yet, here's someone with a small-ass sword, cleanly slicing the mako construct.

So yea, these swords hurt. Alot.

No it's not, it's a tether of Lifestream through which Omega is absorbing it. When the rest of Avalanche destroys each reactor the string of lifestream just gets pulled up to Omega because there's no more to draw. Cloud slicing it doesn't make any sort of chopping sound, he's jsut going through Lifestream.

 

[Wolfmania]

Look at the bullet holes on his shirt. Those are exit holes, dude. Outward.

To be quite frank, that is the kind of fabric defect which would be cause by a high-speed, pretty heated bullet ricocheting against the skin and deflecting.

Am I the only one here who infd It hard to believe that Zack, the guy with a body enhanced by Jenova's Cells, who has a body on the level with guys like Angeal and Seph, who can walk off explosions to their face, gets hurt by bullets.

Heck, forget about that, Weiss who has Genesis's cells can defelct bullets. Barret can put his arm up in defense against Dyne's bullets.

Don't you people find that a little strange and investigate deeper on the matter? I mean, please, take a loot at this:

Spoiler: 4:20

Um, I'm sorry, but didn't Cloud also have JENOVA cells? How is it then that he was able to be slashed through and through by a sword but Zack wasn't able to be pierced by bullets? And why on Earth would Zack be bleeding if he didn't have any bullet wounds? Perhaps the artists chose not to put something quite so graphic as actual bullet wounds in the scene. I think your logic here is a little shaky at best.

When did I say Cloud was slashed through and through by a sword? I said Cloud wasn't slashed through and through by Jenova/Seph, which is true, and the difference between them wouldn't mean that Zack can get hurt by bullets, yet Cloud can endure blows from extreme super-human strenght.

And Zack bleeding? Where was he bleeding from? I see no holes in him, and after the rain you can see that even from clearly. Do realize he just slashed hundreds of people apart. And that same artisit is the one who showed bullet-holes in AC.

Because he didn't know that. Why do you think all the Deepground SOLDIERs were killing anyone with traces of Geostigma (i.e. Jenova) on sight while bringing the - as Hojo says at 22:37 in your video - "uncontaminated" back to be killed in Ractor 0?

He didn't know that? He didn't know that he had to be pure to fuse with Omega? He knew. He just didn't consider the fact he'd lose his mind. But let me make it simpler. Basically you're ignoring the pivotal difference between Geostigma and simply injecting Jenova's cells.

Geostigma is a corruption from Sephiroth, that reaches the soul, and after people die, that corruption spreads and that's how Sephiroth was contaminating the lifestream. And why DG were after Geostigma victims. It's why Geostigma kills, while Jenova injections might just make you insane.

Why do you think he said lose his 'mind'? If the question was purity alone?

This is why Weiss, who's stated multiple times to have Jenova's cells, can do It even though he has cells. He's not being corrupted by Sephiroth.

Hojo's problem wasn't that he couldn't, he never even attempted when he finished injecting himself. Because he lost his mind.

Pleazse don't ignore this - this is literally airtight with the canon. And, either way, It just proves my point that Jenova's cells perfect the body into a 'strong shell' or the 'indestructible body' Hojo created for Vince with science.

Those are exit holes in his shirt, dude, they're exploding outward. (EDIT: ninja'd by Mog)
And why would he be bleeding if his skin just deflected all the bullets? Why did he die? I would say the only reason his face isn't filled with holes is artistic license.

Already cleared that up.

1) Not only does this assume Zack was shot from behind, completely tramples on the fact, you know, he should be riddled with thousands of holes in his equipment. You don't think It's much more plausible the bullets created that fabric defect with a ricochet? Which is entierly possible?

2) He wasn't bleeding. He's covered in blood. he just plowed through an army.

3) Well, that's easy. He basically over-exhausted himself to death, like people can do in real life. kinda like Cloud at the end of AC. You know, even though he was unharmed by the explosion Yazoo and Loz launched at him, the concussive force just heightened his condition. Not to mention Zack was alredy nearly dieing at the time. He was having trouble with grunts after Nibel.

I dunno what the first part of this sentence means

Let me put It this way:

Barret before getting strong: Gets his arm torn off by bullet-fire.

Barret after gettign strong: Holds his good arm up in defense against bullet-fire.

but Cloud has Jenova cells, why was he bothering to deflect bullets with his sword if he could just eat them?

Well, that highly depends on whose bullets you are talking about. And when.

Gunfire that never seemed to hit him. Looked to me like Wutains were terrible shots. I feel like they would make a bigger deal about someone's skin deflecting bullets.

Or, you know, they couldn't possibly miss that and the stuff was just bouncing off. And what do you mean? They didn't even attempt to make a big deal at Weiss doing It. Because It's not a big deal.

In fact, they do, when Omega Weiss does it, why would think that's special if every SOLDIER could do that? This is a video game, obviously people are going to take slashes and stuff that would kill us. The idea is they're getting wounded in battle, not necessarily taking that direct hit. Why else did they almost never show someone taking a hit from anything in Advent Children?

You do realize Omega Weiss is, like Chaos Vincent, only the one you meet at the end of the game, right? You were fighting Regular, G-type Weiss there. Which is why the boss bar said Weiss and stuff. And why the end bar, where Weiss is connected to Omega directly, is Omega Weiss.

And then again, G-types in CC, regular SOLDIERS simply standing in a bullet-storm in DC...when was that ever a big deal? Except against someone with a special fire-arm.

You don't think It's at all strange these 'hard shells' or 'indestrucible bodies' can be pierced with a regular fire-arm like a machine-gun?

Yes, because it would make him resilient and difficult to kill, not because it would turn into concrete. Vincent houses Chaos and Rosso still put a hole in his chest, it just didn't kill him like it should have.

Rosso is a SOLDIER, what's the surprise there?

Besides, in Hojo's own words, it's not resilience, It's durability:

'I continued to look for a durable body'. 'Only a strong shell could hold back Omega's might'. 'A near-indestructible body'. 'I tried to perfect my body for Omega using Jenova's cells.'

You don't find It weird to think those guys could, you know, just get pierced by a regular side-arm?

Of course not, I'm saying a sword is never going to deal a strong enough blow. And Habamut Sin was only, what, two or three stories tall? Omega's the size of a city, Cloud would be running along it's body for hours. Not to mention his sword would hardly be cutting into him. Cloud's sword is 5 of 6 feet long, that penetrates pretty deeply into Bahamut, it would be like a flea bite to Omega, I'm not sure what you're having trouble with about that

Really? Hours? Recall the video I posted, where Cloud cuts the lenght of the thether in well, a second.

And a guy who is at least supersoic in movement is going to take hours? Heck, ignore the fact his slashes can cut more than just the breadth of his sword.

I'm having trouble understanding why you think that as long as Omega isn't completely turned to dust, It won't lose.

Or if you're having trouble with simply taking it out from the utside- why not just break in and destroy it from the inside?

Sure, I guess. But if it were that freaking easy why didn't anyone do it? Again, the idea was getting to the core and neutralizing was something only Chaos could do, given his equal-but-opposite nature.

Firstly, because the only other person that could do it and was alive was Cloud, who was told by Vincent specifically not to interfere in his affairs, and ordered to just clean out the reactors.

And he would have done that, rather had Vincent failed. Doubt anyone else in AVALANCHE other than Cloud could've cleared Omega Weiss.

Plus, the obvious, It was Vincent's game.

No it's not, it's a tether of Lifestream through which Omega is absorbing it. When the rest of Avalanche destroys each reactor the string of lifestream just gets pulled up to Omega because there's no more to draw. Cloud slicing it doesn't make any sort of chopping sound, he's jsut going through Lifestream.

Again, incorrect.

Look at the scene with Cloud again. But, look carefully this time.

And pause right after Cloud cuts the tube. You'll see that thether is made of metal. Rather, that's a mako construct, the same metallic alloy the Omega Weapon is made of. I'm not sure what's hard to understand here. You directly saw the strands being formed form Omega just like the rest of the body.

 

[ForceStealer]

Am I the only one here who infd It hard to believe that Zack, the guy with a body enhanced by Jenova's Cells, who has a body on the level with guys like Angeal and Seph, who can walk off explosions to their face, gets hurt by bullets.

the idea is like in advent children, they're so skilled that they deflect bullets, but since he was facing an army he couldn't block them all. It still took a SHIT TON more bullets to kill him than it would anyone else. Why do you think he died at all if the bullets didn't hurt him?

Heck, forget about that, Weiss who has Genesis's cells can defelct bullets. Barret can put his arm up in defense against Dyne's bullets.

Omega Weiss. That Weiss was way more powered up than just have Genesis' genes in him

When did I say Cloud was slashed through and through by a sword? I said Cloud wasn't slashed through and through by Jenova/Seph, which is true, and the difference between them wouldn't mean that Zack can get hurt by bullets, yet Cloud can endure blows from extreme super-human strenght.

Spoiler: Orly?

And Zack bleeding? Where was he bleeding from? I see no holes in him, and after the rain you can see that even from clearly. Do realize he just slashed hundreds of people apart. And that same artisit is the one who showed bullet-holes in AC.

So how did he die?

 

[AvecAloes]

When did I say Cloud was slashed through and through by a sword? I said Cloud wasn't slashed through and through by Jenova/Seph, which is true, and the difference between them wouldn't mean that Zack can get hurt by bullets, yet Cloud can endure blows from extreme super-human strenght.

And Zack bleeding? Where was he bleeding from? I see no holes in him, and after the rain you can see that even from clearly. Do realize he just slashed hundreds of people apart. And that same artisit is the one who showed bullet-holes in AC.

You didn't say Cloud got slashed by a sword, I'm saying what (clearly and graphically) happened in ACC, when Cloud was facing off against Sephiroth up on the Shinra building. Cloud got slashed. He was bleeding and hurt. Zack was riddled full of bullets. He was bleeding and died. Seems pretty simple to me.

And ok, he showed bullets holes in a movie, but apparently chose not to in this T rated video game. I really doubt that that is meant to imply that Zack wasn't wounded by the bullets. I think it was more a choice of how graphic they wanted to make the video game.

 

[Wolfmania]

the idea is like in advent children, they're so skilled that they deflect bullets, but since he was facing an army he couldn't block them all. It still took a SHIT TON more bullets to kill him than it would anyone else. Why do you think he died at all if the bullets didn't hurt him?

It hurt him, at least tripped him off balance when he was nearly dying, but not enough to pierce him.

Omega Weiss. That Weiss was way more powered up than just have Genesis' genes in him

Aside from the other, many examples I gave. Omega Weiss is not that. It's the one who is connected by tubes to Omega, I've already cleared that up. Besides, the whole point of the cells were to grant the durability to hold Omega's power, why would Omaga make him more durable?

Orly?

Not the instance I'm referring to.

So how did he die?

Overexhaustion, obviously. Not only he had just finished defeating Genesiis, there was clearly something wrong with him, he was having trouble with grunts.

You didn't say Cloud got slashed by a sword, I'm saying what (clearly and graphically) happened in ACC, when Cloud was facing off against Sephiroth up on the Shinra building. Cloud got slashed.

Right before the Jenova Death fight, Cloud simply gets up from a slash by Jenova/Seph.

This is why I was saying Jenova/Seph, don't just asssume, guys.

 

[AvecAloes]

@Wolf- I'm not talking about whatever you said before about Cloud being slashed, I'm using the fact that he was sliced to bits by Sephiroth's blade to say that it's ridiculous to say that Zack couldn't be pierced by bullets.

You trollin', man?

 

[ForceStealer]

Overexhaustion, obviously.

So bullets bounce off his skin, but he'll keel over from exerting himself? Are you serious?

Not only he had just finished defeating Genesiis, there was clearly something wrong with him, he was having trouble with grunts.

A freaking ARMY of grunts. You seriously overrate the strength of our heroes.

Right before the Jenova Death fight, Cloud simply gets up from a slash by Jenova/Seph.

This is why I was saying Jenova/Seph, don't just asssume, guys.

I'm not sure Sephiroth slashes them, it just makes a "thump" sound effect, not the game's slash sound effect like it makes when Sephy cuts Tseng. And Cloud's not the only one that gets up anyway.

Also, "Jenova/Seph" would also apply to ACC Sephiroth considering he's made up of nothing but Jenova cells.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Overexhaustion, obviously. Not only he had just finished defeating Genesiis, there was clearly something wrong with him, he was having trouble with grunts.

The fight against Genesis happened in Banora which is in the Mideal area. Zack dies outside of Midgar. At the very least there are days if not weeks or months between the two events.

 

[ForceStealer]

Basically you're ignoring the pivotal difference between Geostigma and simply injecting Jenova's cells.

Geostigma is a corruption from Sephiroth, that reaches the soul, and after people die, that corruption spreads and that's how Sephiroth was contaminating the lifestream. And why DG were after Geostigma victims. It's why Geostigma kills, while Jenova injections might just make you insane.

Whoa whoa whoa, I missed this, sorry. This is incorrect. You cannot have Geostigma without Jenova's cells and you oculd not have had Jenova cells in that period of time and not had Geostigma. Geostigma is the result of Sephiroth's will ordering Jenova cells to attack the bodies they're inhabiting.

Every single person that had Jenova cells got Geostigma, bar none.

 

[Lord Noctis]

In regards to the discussion as to whether or not SOLDIER's are bullet proof I would like to draw attention to the fac thtat in AC the bullet fired from Yazoo's gun didn't seem to have any trouble passing through Cloud's body.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Wolf, I'm sorry that it's going to seem like I'm picking on you here, man, but ... well, you've just said a lot of stuff that's plainly wrong.

That is true. They have said:

'We could never make a character stronger than Sephiroth in FFVII.'

'There is nothing stronger, nothing above him.'

However, to be fair to Cloud and what he's done, he is nearly Sephiroth's equal(at least in everything except stamina), and has been called his rival on God know how many quotes.

I also must inform you that quote from the Reunion Files that alledgedly says Sephiroth was playing with Cloud is somewhat out of context.

You see, the exact quote was:

'Sephiroth never sweats, and never shows any signs of exertion. He swings his sword practically without making a sound. He probably grunts about three times(Wolf: I counted. It was four.) when swinging his sword in that intense battle.'

Then it continues to talk about Sephiroth's motives and his physical appeareance.

So you see, he dosen't shown any sign of exerting himself, but that dosen't mean he isn't. He's is more than likely holding most of it in to look, well, superior. It's the air he wants to keep.
,
We know how Sephiroth is, he wants Cloud to acknowledge that he is nothing towards his puppeteer, and the same page says that Sephiroth is deeply ashamed of Cloud overpowering him back then. Sephiroth holding back would be non-sensical ...

Look at those two lines I bolded toward the end of your post. The first of them is exactly the reason Seph was holding back. He wasn't going to kill Cloud until he'd broken him.

All the proof you need of this is that everything Seph says from "I've thought of a wonderful gift for you" to "Shall I give you despair?" to "Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away" is part of a single, complete thought.

Look at the progression of it: statement about a gift -> suggestion of what it will be (despair) -> explanation of how he will give him despair (the last thought Cloud has before dying being of those he cherishes, whom Seph will kill next).

All that fighting in between is just theatrics. The conversation is what Sephiroth is most concerned about. He wasn't going to kill him before he'd said what he needed to say.

Hell, look at what he does to him after piercing him in the chest: slices his ass up, but delivers no instant-kill. No decapitation, no head skewering. He even gloats in the air for a full 20 seconds (to deliver the final taunt about killing Cloud's loved ones) after throwing Cloud's hacked body back to the ground.

Seph dicked around with him the whole time. We're talking about a guy who broke a building in half with his mind, yet never exerted that ability onto Cloud's body, choosing instead to use only his sword skills.

If you hear me grunt while fighting with you, that may mean I'm exerting myself, sure. But is it really an indication that you are my equal when I've chosen to handicap myself by letting you tie one of my arms behind my back before our fight started?

Seph lost because he's a James Bond villain. Cloud won because he draws strength from his emotions and fights like a Jedi. You didn't see Mace Windu talking reason to Jango Fett before taking his head off.

Cloud goes straight for the kill shot when he has the chance. Sephiroth doesn't.

1) When did I say Genesis wasn't near Sephiroth's level? He was somewhat, he was just weaker than Sephiroth, overall.

A fact supported by two author's quotes.

2) Your whole talk about degradation is moot because I was referring to when Zack defeated Genesis AVATAR, his strongest form yet, cured of degradation.

Same Zack who was outclassed by Seph.

I know Zack was a little rusty right after waking up post-Nibelheim massacre, but let's not forget he had been soaking in mako for five years. He got the SOLDIER treatment all over again.

If anything, he should have been stronger than ever by the end of CC.

Now, do remember that what Vincent basically did, was reach Omega's core and order It to return to the planet.

He bore through it and blew it to kingdom come.

What's stopping Genesis from slashing head-on at that bitch? Remember the type of strenght Genesis possess? He was on a level with Zack and Sephiroth, the guys strong enough to cut off Jenova's head.

Jenova. The being who could drive a planet into a bigger planet, walk out and start the apocalypse. The being whom the Ancients, that could channel the planet's power to literally rend the earth apart, could not do as much as seal her.

Erm, no. What you seem to be failing to realize, is that even if she is sealed, it dosen't mean her body is any easir to cut. At all. Jenova cannot alter the durability of her own body, as far as we know.

He sliced her head off. Which is an immensely impressive strenght feat, given what jenova's body went through and the fact that simply injecting her cells into an individual makes their body super-durable.

How do you think they would do that if they can't manipulate the placement of her matter with a scalpel or needle?


Shin-Ra scientists -- ordinary, non-enhanced humans -- had no problem cutting her body, so why should anyone else? How else would they have gotten cell samples to put in Lucrecia and all those SOLDIERs?

Whether they cut little pieces off or stuck a needle in and extracted material, they had to penetrate her flesh.

JENOVA's physiology seems very much like the creature from "The Thing" movies (long believed to be the inspiration for JENOVA by fans). Anything can penetrate its body; its resilience and durability stem from very little being able to actually make its cells die.

Furthermore that is even a supplement to the case, since she was sealed in her real form ...

Do we even know if she has one of those?

... that came from the meateor, while fighting the last resistance of Ancients.

Ancients that, even though commanded power to rend the earth, couldn't even slice her to pieces after sealing her.

Why would it have helped? How do you know they didn't try? Reunion, man. The cells reunite on their own. It's what they do.

Here's another problem with the canon. In the original, the didn't even attempt to fight Diamond, so the fact the again forced Diamond to deter and not kill is irrelevant given It's death was already sealed in canon to be by the Sister Ray, and not our rag-tag band of misfits.

The other problem, is that It hardly took a full AVALANCHE to force a Weapon into surrender. Neither Cloud nor Tifa were there when Ultimate ran away.

Which brings us to our third point. the fact It ran away and was unable to defeat the party does not mean It NESCESSARILY is as powerful as the party save of Cloud and Tifa, since, you know, It ran away from feat of It's life, continuously.

In the battle at Mideel, isn't it more likely that it left because the Lifestream was about to rip through the area?

It's not exactly healing since her cells need to be alive for It to work. Rather, if the living cells are separated, they can come back toguether. If Meteor + the Ancients were able to hurt her in the first place, It would be because they were able to kill her cells, hence the Reunion could not work with dead cells. Which means those events didn't actually hurt her to the point she's lose her head or something.

Again, her body reunites when dismembered. A damn tentacle from her transformed into a ginormous creature complete with its own head (JENOVA-BIRTH).

Her physiology and nervous system aren't like a mammal's.

Well you've officially lost me. I thought YOU were the one that said Chaos told Omega to gtfo. Omega is the ultimate being of a pure lifestream, Chaos is the ultimate being of stagnant lifestream, therefore, like matter and antimatter, Chaos was able to neutralize Omega with itself.

Corrupted Lifestream, Nero is the stagnant one, but continuing.

They're the same thing. The "soul wrought of terra corrupt" is born from stagnant Lifestreamn. Stagnant Lifestream becomes contaminated with impurities, and, thus, is no longer pure.

It's why Nero's darkness is completely ineffective against Vincent. Nero might as well be trying to drown a fish by throwing it in a lake.

To be quite frank, that is the kind of fabric defect which would be cause by a high-speed, pretty heated bullet ricocheting against the skin and deflecting.

Seeing as this has never happened in the history of the human race, how would you know that?

Am I the only one here who infd It hard to believe that Zack, the guy with a body enhanced by Jenova's Cells, who has a body on the level with guys like Angeal and Seph, who can walk off explosions to their face, gets hurt by bullets.

You are, I'm afraid.

Heck, forget about that, Weiss who has Genesis's cells can defelct bullets. Barret can put his arm up in defense against Dyne's bullets.

Weiss is genuinely special. As for Barret, how do you know Dyne wasn't firing at the ground in front of him? He was trying to provoke Barret into a fight, not kill him outright.

And Zack bleeding? Where was he bleeding from? I see no holes in him, and after the rain you can see that even from clearly. Do realize he just slashed hundreds of people apart.

The blood is clearly his. It has ran down his face from his scalp, it's leaked from holes in his uniform, and it's pooled around him (in a much larger pool than the little sploshes around the broken gear in the area from others). Yeah, some of that in the pool might be from his sword, but it's on both sides of him.

His is the only body at the cliff.

He didn't know that? He didn't know that he had to be pure to fuse with Omega? He knew. He just didn't consider the fact he'd lose his mind. But let me make it simpler. Basically you're ignoring the pivotal difference between Geostigma and simply injecting Jenova's cells.

Geostigma is a corruption from Sephiroth, that reaches the soul, and after people die, that corruption spreads and that's how Sephiroth was contaminating the lifestream. And why DG were after Geostigma victims. It's why Geostigma kills, while Jenova injections might just make you insane.

Why do you think he said lose his 'mind'? If the question was purity alone?

Hojo's copy specifically says that it's a matter of creating a pure Lifestream, free of any form of corruption, including JENOVA: "If the Chaos within you was born of a tainted Lifestream, then the almighty Omega would be born of a pure one. So I had my minions gather up the 'uncontaminated' to create a stream of refined mako, thus awakening Omega inside me."

And after Nero's spirit emerges: "Omega's host must be pure! Why do you think I had you create mako untainted by Jenova!? If a filthy being like you infected it..."

Whether stagnant Lifestream or JENOVA, creating Omega properly required no form of corruption.

This is why Weiss, who's stated multiple times to have Jenova's cells, can do It even though he has cells. He's not being corrupted by Sephiroth.

Weiss has never been stated to have JENOVA's cells. In fact, the opposite was said. Remember this?: "... Weiss, who had become an interest to the scientists following his remarkable growth in ability without exposure to the cells of Jenova. Over time, through ruthless testing based on his body’s incredible reaction to nothing but untainted Mako, Weiss was hailed as a pure soldier, and was given the title 'The Immaculate' by the researchers."

He only has genes from Genesis. It's an easy misunderstanding, I know, and I don't fully get it either, but apparently gene splicing involves encoding genetic information into a synthetic material that is then deposited into the organism in which the desired traits are to be transferred.

For example, even after Cloud's JENOVA cells are removed by Aerith, he still retains enhancements. Granted, how much of his enhancement came from JENOVA vs. how much came from mako is unclear.

In any case, we don't even know if Genesis himself had JENOVA cells. He had her genetic data, yes, but he got it fairly indirectly. The cells were directly injected into Gillian, and then some of Gillian's cells were injected into the embryo that became Genesis, which was in another woman.

What he received was considered less pure than the concentration bestowed on Angeal, who was Gillian's child; and that concentration was less pure still than the concentration Sephiroth received, where JENOVA's cells were injected directly into the embryo that he developed from.

1) Not only does this assume Zack was shot from behind ...

The dude was surrounded. Remember the fight with the army?

... completely tramples on the fact, you know, he should be riddled with thousands of holes in his equipment. You don't think It's much more plausible the bullets created that fabric defect with a ricochet? Which is entierly possible?

Shouldn't there be thousands of holes in his equipment regardless of whether they can hurt him? Especially if he has no concern about dodging them?

Well, that's easy. He basically over-exhausted himself to death, like people can do in real life.

Why does he scream in pain at being shot when they finally put him on the ground?

And, really, "over exhausted himself"? If he had nothing to worry about and could just take his time?

... kinda like Cloud at the end of AC.

Speaking of which:

In regards to the discussion as to whether or not SOLDIER's are bullet proof I would like to draw attention to the fac thtat in AC the bullet fired from Yazoo's gun didn't seem to have any trouble passing through Cloud's body.

Yes, thank you. If a bullet pierces AC/C Cloud, then it's definitely going to pierce Zack.

And there was blood that dripped from Cloud's chest when that happened too.

Or, you know, they couldn't possibly miss that and the stuff was just bouncing off. And what do you mean? They didn't even attempt to make a big deal at Weiss doing It. Because It's not a big deal.

Then why show him doing it? It is a big deal. It emphasizes how hardcore he is. We've been shooting people (SOLDIERs, in fact) all game and it's been hurting them. Then we shoot at Weiss and he laughs it off.

You don't think It's at all strange these 'hard shells' or 'indestrucible bodies' can be pierced with a regular fire-arm like a machine-gun?

They can take more abuse, sure, but they're not completely indestructible. The fact that Zack took as much as he did before going down is where you see his durability. Cloud gets back up and makes one last, desperate attack after taking a bullet through the heart.

It would have still killed him, though, if not for Aerith's intervention.

Rosso is a SOLDIER, what's the surprise there?

A SOLDIER that bullets hurt.

 

[Roger]

Well sure Sephiroth wasn't fully trying. I doubt Genesis was either though. AT the very least he wasn't ging for the kill. Rivals or otherwise the two were still friends at this point.

I'm going to say this as often as i have to. THE ENTIRE REASON ANGEAL STOPPED THE FIGHT IS BECAUSE HE WAS GONNA KILL THEM ALL! As examplified by him SAYING "Stop! You'll destroy us all!" and when Angeal stopped him a second time Genesis decided to attack straight through Angeal to get at Sephiroth, with an attack poweful enough that just the rickocet hurt one of them. The entire point of that scene was to show that Genesis was way unhinged.

Whoa whoa whoa, I missed this, sorry. This is incorrect. You cannot have Geostigma without Jenova's cells and you oculd not have had Jenova cells in that period of time and not had Geostigma. Geostigma is the result of Sephiroth's will ordering Jenova cells to attack the bodies they're inhabiting.

Every single person that had Jenova cells got Geostigma, bar none.

That is a giant assumption. The only character with preexisting Jenova cells that got Geostigma that we know of is Cloud. There are several better reasons why Sephiroth's disease was contracted by Cloud that we can all think off other then the Jenova cells inside him.

Seph dicked around with him the whole time. We're talking about a guy who broke a building in half with his mind, yet never exerted that ability onto Cloud's body, choosing instead to use only his sword skills.

We see Sephiroth dick around with Genesis as well. Genesis never put his sword against Sephiroth's and slam him through a wall.

I know Zack was a little rusty right after waking up post-Nibelheim massacre, but let's not forget he had been soaking in mako for five years. He got the SOLDIER treatment all over again.

We are never ever told that Zack's treatment at Nibelheim had a positive effect on him. We are only ever told it was failure.

His is the only body at the cliff.

Not in Crisis Core it ain't.

Weiss has never been stated to have JENOVA's cells. In fact, the opposite was said. Remember this?: "... Weiss, who had become an interest to the scientists following his remarkable growth in ability without exposure to the cells of Jenova. Over time, through ruthless testing based on his body’s incredible reaction to nothing but untainted Mako, Weiss was hailed as a pure soldier, and was given the title 'The Immaculate' by the researchers."

He only has genes from Genesis. It's an easy misunderstanding, I know, and I don't fully get it either, but apparently gene splicing involves encoding genetic information into a synthetic material that is then deposited into the organism in which the desired traits are to be transferred.

He has "G" cells. I'm gonna assume that the DoC writers had yet to figure out what that would entail. Genesis' background was decided after DoC.

As it stands the whole point of project G is that Angeal and Genesis possess Jenova's abilities in ways that Sephiroth, before his death didn't.

Angeal: I can absorb genetic traits and pass them along to others.
Hollander: Jenova's powers have passed onto you completely.

Genesis: your [Sephiroth's] traits can't be copied onto others, your cells can't diffuse, therefore your body cannot degrade.

As of CC, saying that Cloud has Jenova cells has a result of having S-cells while Weiss does not have Jenova cells has a result of only having G-cells is ridiculous, come on now.

For example, even after Cloud's JENOVA cells are removed by Aerith, he still retains enhancements. Granted, how much of his enhancement came from JENOVA vs. how much came from mako is unclear.

Geostigma was removed, the Jenova cells that were long since mutated into Cloud very genetic structure being removed is a big ssumption, much less that the enhancements that said genetic mutation made accour instantly disappearing.

In any case, we don't even know if Genesis himself had JENOVA cells. He had her genetic data, yes, but he got it fairly indirectly. The cells were directly injected into Gillian, and then some of Gillian's cells were injected into the embryo that became Genesis, which was in another woman.

We do know that prior to Genesis and Angeal rejoining SOLDIER, Project G was assumed a total failure. Why are we then assuming they skipped out on giving him the same enhancements that Zack and the rest of when they joined SOLDIER?


As for this whole bullets thing. Zack ran accross a football field in broad day light at a wall of a hundred thousand rifles. They eventually killed him, but the first hundred bullets at the very least did almost nothing. Yazoo and Loz guns totally made of Jenova cells/dark Lifestream as well, they can hardly count.

I don't think Jenova cells let you deflect them, but you definitely tank them nevertheless. We see Zack get an entire magazine put into his head at point blank range and he was still talking.

 

[ForceStealer]

That is a giant assumption. The only character with preexisting Jenova cells that got Geostigma that we know of is Cloud. There are several better reasons why Sephiroth's disease was contracted by Cloud that we can all think off other then the Jenova cells inside him.

A giant assumption? Vincent says right in the movie that Jenova cells are the cause of the stigma.

We are never ever told that Zack's treatment at Nibelheim had a positive effect on him. We are only ever told it was failure.

It's true that we aren't as far as I know. But I will say that his being labeled a "failure" is irrelevant was what Hojo was gauging "success" and "failure" by was totally different than a positive effect

Not in Crisis Core it ain't.

Yes it is, that edge of the cliff with the pool of blood Zack is lying in. There's no one else there. Zack wasn't backed up to the edge until there were just those 3 left.

He has "G" cells. I'm gonna assume that the DoC writers had yet to figure out what that would entail. Genesis' background was decided after DoC.

As it stands the whole point of project G is that Angeal and Genesis possess Jenova's abilities in ways that Sephiroth, before his death didn't.

Angeal: I can absorb genetic traits and pass them along to others.
Hollander: Jenova's powers have passed onto you completely.

Genesis: your [Sephiroth's] traits can't be copied onto others, your cells can't diffuse, therefore your body cannot degrade.

As of CC, saying that Cloud has Jenova cells has a result of having S-cells while Weiss does not have Jenova cells has a result of only having G-cells is ridiculous, come on now.

It certainly is, but take that up with the Compilation. Weiss and the Tsviets do not have Jenova cells. How Genesis' gene splicing didn't give them Jenova cells is beyond me, but until they reconcile these two points in some way, they are both true. They have Genesis' genes, but they do not possess Jenova cells, otherwise Weiss would not have been able to play host to Omega, Hojo says as much.
I kinda got the impression that Minerva stopped Genesis' degradation by removing his Jenova cells...but I don't know why he would still have his black wing at the end of Dirge though.

Geostigma was removed, the Jenova cells that were long since mutated into Cloud very genetic structure being removed is a big ssumption, much less that the enhancements that said genetic mutation made accour instantly disappearing.

We've had this debate before, and I understand what you're saying, but given what we know about how Geostigma works, I have no idea how Great Gospel could have cured Geostigma without destroying Jenova's cells.

As for this whole bullets thing. Zack ran accross a football field in broad day light at a wall of a hundred thousand rifles. They eventually killed him, but the first hundred bullets at the very least did almost nothing. Yazoo and Loz guns totally made of Jenova cells/dark Lifestream as well, they can hardly count.

I don't think Jenova cells let you deflect them, but you definitely tank them nevertheless. We see Zack get an entire magazine put into his head at point blank range and he was still talking.

You can "tank" them in the sense it's gonna take a lot more to do you in, but I still think if a bullet hits you it's going to pierce your skin. It's just that a Jenova-enhanced body can continue to function long after sustaining damage that would kill anyone else. Zack was probably dodging and deflecting as many bullets as he could like Cloud does, but there were too many, kept fighting, until he had simply lost too much blood.

As for taking a clip to the face, I again chalk that up to a Teen rating and artistic license. The final moment would have been a little different if half of Zack's head was missing.

If it was so well-established that SOLDIERs could just shrug off bullets, why did so many people complain about the silliness of Cloud's goggles deflecting Yazoo's shot?

 

[Roger]

A giant assumption? Vincent says right in the movie that Jenova cells are the cause of the stigma.

We are told that Geostigma IS Jenova cells, that hardly meant that Cloud was an instant target or change that Cloud and SOLDIERs Jenova cells never had these problems. Hell, MOST of Deepground is composed of former SOLDIERs that were injured in battle. Obviously they had Jenova cells inside them irrespective of this G-cell bullshit, obviously they either never even got Geostigma or found a way to survive it without Aerith's intervention. So yeah, I'd say that assuming that Geostigma targets those that already have Jenova cells and EVERY SINGLE CASE save for Cloud that we actually see is collateral damage, is an assumption. Especially since Cloud was able to walk around with his Jenova cells while people were already dying from Geostigma for most of those two years before eventually getting it himself One example is not a pattern. Especially since, again, Cloud would have been a target of Sephiroth no matter how he went about it.

Yes it is, that edge of the cliff with the pool of blood Zack is lying in. There's no one else there. Zack wasn't backed up to the edge until there were just those 3 left.

the CGI cutscene after battle show him lying right next to other people and weapons. the nomral scenes just didn't render the mess killing 400% of the Planet's population would obviously create.

he could like Cloud does, but there were too many, kept fighting, until he had simply lost too much blood.

Like Cloud does when????? Never had Cloud gone up against anything like that, and just got through it by the deflecting them, a thousands bullets per second. There's no way, we are suppose to look at that scene and not assume few bullets are gonna get through and hit his body constantly.

We've had this debate before, and I understand what you're saying, but given what we know about how Geostigma works, I have no idea how Great Gospel could have cured Geostigma without destroying Jenova's cells.

Cloud didn't need healing of his prexisting Jenova cells, they weren't ailing him. Great Gospel healed him, that's all it does.

 

[ForceStealer]

We are told that Geostigma IS Jenova cells, that hardly meant that Cloud was an instant target or change that Cloud and SOLDIERs Jenova cells never had these problems. Hell, MOST of Deepground is composed of former SOLDIERs that were injured in battle. Obviously they had Jenova cells inside them irrespective of this G-cell bullshit, obviously they either never even got Geostigma or found a way to survive it without Aerith's intervention. So yeah, I'd say that assuming that Geostigma targets those that already have Jenova cells and EVERY SINGLE CASE save for Cloud that we actually see is collateral damage, is an assumption. Especially since Cloud was able to walk around with his Jenova cells while people were already dying from Geostigma for most of those two years before eventually getting it himself One example is not a pattern. Especially since, again, Cloud would have been a target of Sephiroth no matter how he went about it.

Calling every single case collateral damage isn't all that difficult to believe considering the Lifestream (which had Jenova cells in it) burst through the groudn in every corner of the world. I don't know what delayed the onset of Cloud's stigma, but what would explain the delay no matter how you think Geostigma works? As you say, Sephiroth would certainly want him to contract it.

the CGI cutscene after battle show him lying right next to other people and weapons. the nomral scenes just didn't render the mess killing 400% of the Planet's population would obviously create.

I only remember seeing weapons and stuff over where Cloud was crawling, I don't remember seeing any in the vicinity of Zack at the edge of the cliff, but whatever, not a huge deal.

Like Cloud does when????? Never had Cloud gone up against anything like that, and just got through it by the deflecting them, a thousands bullets per second. There's no way, we are suppose to look at that scene and not assume few bullets are gonna get through and hit his body constantly.

I just meant deflecting bullets in the manner that Cloud does in the movie. And he IS pretty packed with bullet holes. If you don't think Jenova lets you deflect bullets, what DO you think happened to all these other bullets that you say hit him but didn't leave marks?

Cloud didn't need healing of his prexisting Jenova cells, they weren't ailing him. Great Gospel healed him, that's all it does.

Geostigma is Sephiroth's will ordering Jenova cells inhabiting people's bodies to begin attacking the cells around them. How could Great Gospel have healed him without destroying the cells? The only other way would be to stop Sephiroth's will...which Cloud did later. People caught Geostigma when Sephiroth's will started sending out these orders because the Lifestream burst from the ground and started spreading Jenova cells all over the place 9or from black water of corrupted Lifestream later). Cloud was in the Highwind, how would he have caught it? He didn't, he just already had Jenova in him.