GENESIS: Tell me all we know!

[Wolfmania]

Oh, yes. All the others included. The above SOLDIERS are agglomerations of the best powers in VII into singular beings.

 

[ForceStealer]

Vincent would likely have to be in there somewhere. Chaos makes him very powerful. I don't know where you'd put him in your little list, but Cloud and Vincent are easily the most powerul AVALANCHE members, which is itself basically a collection of the strongest people on the Planet not named Sephiroth.

 

[Wolfmania]

Well, let me illustrate by continuing It for a bit.

Genesis = Angeal > Jenova = Minerva(this is pure speculation, the position of these two) > CV >= Omega Weiss

And I agree, CV and Cloud are easily the strongest members of AVALANCHE, but he's probably not at the level of an elite such as Genesis. I mean, hate him as much as I do, i have to admit he's one hell of a fighter.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The problem with WEAPONs... It takes all of AVALANCHE at the end of the OG to take one down, or in the case of DoC, another WEAPON. And unlike the WEAPONs you fight in the OG, Chaos and Omega (and Minerva possibly) are not designed for combat; they have very specialized roles. The rest of the WEAPONs are basically killing machines. They never were human in the first place so they're difficult to place in reference to human power.

 

[Wolfmania]

You mean the Ultimate Weapon? That's not fully correct, given that the party, without Cloud and Tifa, caused It to run away from them in fear.

After Cloud re-joins the party can It be fully killed for good after more running. And that was a party with Chaos himself, too.

That being said, it's doubtful that the Killer Weapon trio would so much as pose much of an enemy to the likes of Genesis, given how close to BC Sephiroth he was established, how he was handpicked by Minerva to protect the Planet, and how he joins in more powers into a single being.

 

[Roger]

Kadaj vs Vincent seemed like it wouldn't be a given from the little we've seen, I wouldn't put all those people between the two. And while I think Kadaj is a lot stronger then his brother I wouldn't put THAT many people between them either.

 

[Wolfmania]

Spoiler: Click

Kadaj is an embodiment of will who has some control over the negative Lifestream, is a larval form of AC/C Sephiroth and could somewhat not get instantly thrashed by AC/C Cloud.

Yea, dude's a total badass. We even see him do more in this new novel but he's mostly just prancing around trying to extort info out of people. That being said, I don't know which brother you are referring to...

 

[Roger]

Meant to be plural.

 

[Wolfmania]

Oh, I see.

And I just forgot to add Loz and Yazoo because they're kinda hard to place. Sometimes I'd just think

Well,

Kadaj = ACC Sephiroth's larval form/FFVII Sephiroth, then Loz e Yazoo should = BC Sephiroth.

Yet that seems disingenuous since the gap between them seems to be quite big. For instance, both of them are unable to overpower a dying Cloud, when Kadaj no-sells him in 5 flat hits.

I'm still considering where they are.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

You mean the Ultimate Weapon? That's not fully correct, given that the party, without Cloud and Tifa, caused It to run away from them in fear.

I was more thinking Ruby/Emerald WEAPON along wit the fact that AVALANCHE usually fights as a group. IE, if Cloud can beat Sephiroth when Sephiroth is more powerful then him, Cloud and another person had better be able to beat him.

What makes it hard to compare power levels is that so many people on the list have more then one form. Also, we're missing Nero. He can essentially Remove opponents from battle at long range. I can see him beating some of the people on the list before they've gotten certain power-ups.

Not only that, so many of Zack's fights are not against people who actually want to kill him at the time. Angeal doesn't want to kill Zack; he really wants to goad Zack into killing him so he attacks him. Genesis wants to prove a point to Zack more then he wants to kill him, which means Zack has to survive. I have to have more evidence then "Zack won the fight" before I say he's stronger/at a higher level then they are.

 

[Wolfmania]

I was more thinking Ruby/Emerald WEAPON along wit the fact that AVALANCHE usually fights as a group. IE, if Cloud can beat Sephiroth when Sephiroth is more powerful then him, Cloud and another person had better be able to do the job.

Well, the Ruby e such were never originally fought, but I still can't see why they are more powerful than people such as post!Lifestream Cloud or someone weaker than him such as Genesis simply because AVALANCHE is a tight-knit group. I mean, if the group would be completely defeated or unable to defeat a Weapon, sure. But that's not what happened, since the group without Cloud still made Ultimate run like hell.

I mean, hate Genesis as I will, but he could more than likely replicate Sephiroth's Jenova-beheading feat. Something more powerful than any Weapon could muster. Wouldn't you agree?

Then again, Weapons are just mako constructs, like materia. SOLDIERS unite even more than just mako, but Jenova and the heigtened will of humans into one prowess.

What makes it hard to compare power levels is that so many people on the list have more then one form. Also, we're missing Nero. He can essentially Remove opponents from battle at long range. I can see him beating some of the people on the list before they've gotten certain power-ups.

Erm, the only one I can think of is Genesis AVATAR, yet that's the same case with AC/C Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth. Genesis still absorbed the huge materia, so he'd just use the power in human form.

And I really don't think so...Nero's power completely failed against someone with corrupted mako inside of them, dount It wouldn't work just as well against someone with mako like a SOLDIER. I mean, Weiss was stronger for a reason.

Not only that, so many of Zack's fights are not against people who actually want to kill him at the time. Angeal doesn't want to kill Zack; he really wants to goad Zack into killing him so he attacks him. Genesis wants to prove a point to Zack more then he wants to kill him, which means Zack has to survive. I have to have more evidence then "Zack won the fight" before I say he's stronger/at a higher level then they are.

Well, the Angeal part is certainly agreeable, but Genesis wanted to defeat Zack either way, he did outright want to fight the guy. He even goaded Zack into fighting when Zack didn't want to, and lost pretty badly. Even after absorbing the Goddess materia and the surrounding lifestream, Zack's will still overpowered him.

Didn't Zack defeat Minerva as well, just as you can fight the Ruby/Emerald in FFVII?

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

IMO should be:
AC/C Seph >AC/C Cloud>DC ChaosVincent> OmegaWeiss> Weiss>DC Vincent> Kadaj>=OG Seph> OG Cloud> OG Vincent etc.

 

[Wolfmania]

You...you cannot be suggesting base Vincent or Weiss would be able to FFVII Sephiroth.

Do remember that Chaos WAS in the original game, and under full control from Vince. He even used It in the fight against Hojo.

What, honestly, was so impressive about those Weapons that they'd be able to defeat someone like Genesis or post!Lifestream Cloud? Especially since the formers are more impressive overall and posses a higher combination of power.

 

[Roger]

AC Sephiroth>AC Cloud>Kadaj>Geostigma Cloud>Bahamut Tremor>Vincent>Yazoo=Loz>Tifa>Rude=Reno

Omega>=Chaos>Weiss>Vincent>Nero>Azul>Rosso>>>Shelke

CC Sephiroth>Zack>Genesis>Angeal

Also for reference Genesis>Weiss

 

[Wolfmania]

Yea, that seems canonicaly very accurate, except Shelke is too low and Loz/Yazoo may be to low as well, but It's impossible to determine given what you and I talked about back there.

Remember Shelke fought with Rosso in quite alot to stalemates, apparently.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

What's frustrating about everyone's power levels in FFVII is that we have it on Word of God that Sephiroth is stronger then Cloud is. Yet Cloud has beaten Sephrioth at least twice. So if we didn't have Word of God then we would think Cloud is stronger then Sephiroth. This calls into question the validity of the outcome of just about every major fight that takes place. What also makes it difficult is that so much is left up to head-canon.

 

[Wolfmania]

What's frustrating about everyone's power levels in FFVII is that we have it on Word of God that Sephiroth is stronger then Cloud is. Yet Cloud has beaten Sephrioth at least twice. So if we didn't have Word of God then we would think Cloud is stronger then Sephiroth. This calls into question the validity of the outcome of just about every major fight that takes place. What also makes it difficult is that so much is left up to head-canon.

I agree that much is left to head-canon and basically fan conjecture with the evidence presented, though I do think Cloud's wins against Sephiroth are entierly explainable, and he is indeed stronger than cloud, if only in one aspect which gives him the advantage, as we saw in AC/C.

 

[ForceStealer]

What makes it hard to compare power levels is that so many people on the list have more then one form. Also, we're missing Nero. He can essentially Remove opponents from battle at long range. I can see him beating some of the people on the list before they've gotten certain power-ups.

That's the other issue, yeah. With Dirge of Cerberus, for instance, I would say Cloud would win a fight with Vincent, Vincent was the only one who could do that as onyl Chaos could take care of Omega.

But like you said about Avalanche usually fighting as a group - and with Avalanche fighting together, I take them over ANY other group of people in the story. They are an unbelievable force to reckoned with.
I know people are disappointed by their showing in ACC, and I agree, but the fact remains that they had NO materia, and even if they weren't "beating" Bahamut Sin, they had contained it to a fairly small area. All with their relatively small armaments.

I know I risk angering the spirit of DLPB by even suggesting gameplay has a bearing outside of the game - but I think it's relevant that in FF7, any one Avalanche member has very difficult time against a 1st Class SOLDIER (except maybe Cloud and Vincent). But a team of Avalanche members beats a team of 1st Classes with little problem.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

i've wrote DC Vincent and DC ChaosVincent.
and in OG chaos is just a limit break like Galian beast, death gigas and hellmasker, with the only difference that chaos is l.4. in DC chaos is Omega's squire (or at least that's what Lucrecia says), so it have to be stronger.
During AC/C storyline Vincent faced Kadaj two times: first is when he saved Tseng and Elena, second when he saved Cloud. we've see when he saved Cloud and not when he saved Tseng/Elena, but surely when he saved the turks he had to face kadaj because: 1- i don't think that Kadaj&co would leaves two prisoners turks without a guard; 2- when Vince saved Cloud Kadaj makes a sound of disappointed (i think that was 'Tzk' or something else) and i don't think that was only because someone saved Cloud.

Vincent use Chaos against Hojo in FFVII because:
1- it's supposed that at this point of the game you have Chaos set up as limit break
2- in that fight Vince just want to kick Hojo's ass.
3-he was angry. very angy
4-Chaos is the limit break that Lucrecia put in Vincent, so use Chaos it's like Both Vincent and Lucrecia fight against Hojo (that's the more romantic version, so probably what SE will answer)
5- SE need a reason for have Vincent(who probably is the most asocial and loner character on the planet) as protagonist of a game

 

[Wolfmania]

i've wrote DC Vincent and DC ChaosVincent.
and in OG chaos is just a limit break like Galian beast, death gigas and hellmasker, with the only difference that chaos is l.4. in DC chaos is Omega's squire (or at least that's what Lucrecia says), so it have to be stronger.
During AC/C storyline Vincent faced Kadaj two times: first is when he saved Tseng and Elena, second when he saved Cloud. we've see when he saved Cloud and not when he saved Tseng/Elena, but surely when he saved the turks he had to face kadaj because: 1- i don't think that Kadaj&co would leaves two prisoners turks without a guard; 2- when Vince saved Cloud Kadaj makes a sound of disappointed (i think that was 'Tzk' or something else) and i don't think that was only because someone saved Cloud.

Vincent use Chaos against Hojo in FFVII because:
1- it's supposed that at this point of the game you have Chaos set up as limit break
2- in that fight Vince just want to kick Hojo's ass.
3-he was angry. very angy
4-Chaos is the limit break that Lucrecia put in Vincent, so use Chaos it's like Both Vincent and Lucrecia fight against Hojo (that's the more romantic version, so probably what SE will answer)
5- SE need a reason for have Vincent(who probably is the most asocial and loner character on the planet) as protagonist of a game

I'm sorry but your post has multiple canon innacurracies.

For instance, DoC retcons Chaos in FFVII to the same one as DoC, as we see with Hojo's monologue, when he was confronted at the Sister Ray, he and Hojo had a confrontation wheere Vincent transformed into Chaos. If you recall, that's the very reason why Hojo starts to get interested in them on the first place. And Hojo is just a bloke with cells like Hollander or Lazard, he can't fight like a first.

Secondly, he found Tseng and Elena, after they were brutaly tortured by Kadaj for information they didn't give. He then proceeded to save them, do what he could since they were so beaten-up. This is straight in the movie.

And, really? What do you think Kadaj was irratated about? Except for the most obvious reading. And that isn't even a depiction of Vince's power even, since Kadaj just sat there, It's how VII depicts teammwork.

Your assumption is ludicrous. I mean seriously. Think about that for a second. You're implying someone as strong as FFVII Sephiroth, would lose to Weiss from DoC.

1) So?
2) ...So? Why'd he use Chaos if he didn't have to?
3) And? Obviously he wanted to massacre Hojo, which he did when he transformed and kicked that shitty scientist back a couple notches.
4) I don't even know what to say to this.
5) Again, ok.

Nothing there evidenced how Chaos would be able to beat someone like FFVII Sephiroth. What was so impressive about him to even beat Genesis, who did more impressive stuff, has a more impressive station, and more impressive attributes.

That's the other issue, yeah. With Dirge of Cerberus, for instance, I would say Cloud would win a fight with Vincent, Vincent was the only one who could do that as onyl Chaos could take care of Omega.

Well, at least we can agree that AC/C Cloud > Chaos. But even so, It's doubtful Cloud wouldn't have stopped Omega himself had Vincent not told him DG was his.

If your problem is that Cloud can't fly, do remember that V6 let's him fly at unimaginably high speeds. He'd slash Omega's core apart then when he was at that altitude, like he did to It before. Simpyl because he can't order Omega to retreat back to the planet, does not mean he cannot defeat It like the Killer Weapon Trio.

Heck, Genesis could do that.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

That's the other issue, yeah. With Dirge of Cerberus, for instance, I would say Cloud would win a fight with Vincent, Vincent was the only one who could do that as onyl Chaos could take care of Omega.

This so much. In a Cloud/Omega fight I would say Cloud would be hard pressed to defeat Omega without taking himself out with it. Actually, the point of that fight isn't so much that Omega is defeated; it's that both Omega and Chaos return to the Lifestream where they belong. And both Vincent and Weiss survive. Vincent is the only one who can fight Omega and properly win.

I know people are disappointed by their showing in ACC, and I agree, but the fact remains that they had NO materia, and even if they weren't "beating" Bahamut Sin, they had contained it to a fairly small area. All with their relatively small armaments.

Give Tifa a decent weapon and armor, an Enemy Skill materia, a mastered Speed Up, a decent Summon and Magic materia, a Time linked to an Added Effect on her weapon and I don't think it's too far out of the realm of possibility that she could at least hold Loz off until Cloud arrived to finish him off. And Cloud would probably have the Master Summon or Master Magic materia on him. Also, Cloud with materia vs. Sephiroth... seriously, KotR would have at least given him some breathing room. And that's before you bring in simple items such as X-Potions... at the very least it would have made the fight even.

I know I risk angering the spirit of DLPB by even suggesting gameplay has a bearing outside of the game - but I think it's relevant that in FF7, any one Avalanche member has very difficult time against a 1st Class SOLDIER (except maybe Cloud and Vincent). But a team of Avalanche members beats a team of 1st Classes with little problem.

Definitely relevant. A team of 1st Class SOLDIER probably poses less of a problem then Bahamut Sin.

If your problem is that Cloud can't fly, do remember that V6 let's him fly at a speed even Sephiroth can't react to. He'd slash Omega apart then when he was at that altitude, like he did to It before.

For me it's not the flying that says Cloud would have a hard time, it's the sheer size of Omega. He towers over Midgar. Exactly how many times would Cloud have to do V6 in order to destroy it? That's what I have problems with.

 

[ForceStealer]

What does it matter if Chaos is "just" a limit break? It's still a power he has access to, and one that he can remain in for a protracted period.

And I don't think Cloud could take out Omega, that seems a little silly. Chaos had to basically destroy itself to do it. The only other thing that could maybe take out Omega is, again, a fully-loaded Avalanche. Because they can take out just about anything, as stated.

And I think a materia'd-up Tifa could take Loz. A haste spell so she keep up with him would go a long way. Obviously when he's not using his dashing ability she takes care of him handily.

 

[Wolfmania]

For me it's not the flying that says Cloud would have a hard time, it's the sheer size of Omega. He towers over Midgar. Exactly how many times would Cloud have to do V6 in order to destroy it? That's what I have problems with.

..That's It? For a moment there I thought we might've had a real canon problem here.

Anyway, Cloud wouldn't need the speed or power boost from V6 to beat Omega, I only brought that up since I thought you guys's problem was that he can't naturally fly.

He wouldn't need to use It once, you guys's are seriously overestimating how hard that Weapon is to destroy. It's something Genesis could do.

Now, do remember that what Vincent basically did, was reach Omega's core and order It to return to the planet.

So I ask you, why can't someone like Genesis, simply because he has the raw power to do that, not simply slash at Omega's core and kill It like the trio likely killed the Killer WEAPONS made specifically for fighting?

Tell me what do you guys think is so wrong with that. Does he not have enough strenght, does he not have enough resistance?

And I don't think Cloud could take out Omega, that seems a little silly. Chaos had to basically destroy itself to do it. The only other thing that could take out Omega is, again, a fully-loaded Avalanche. Because they can take out just about anything, as stated.

Now, that seems a little silly to me. You are aware of the quote in which Vince himself states that he does not possess a power strong enough to defeat Sephiroth? Yet Cloud does? And, as you yourself know, Chaos is a power of his. And yea, It was basically Chaos just telling his bro, 'hey, time to go back, so let's go', it wasn't any kind of feat as much as exploiting their natural relationship.

What's stopping Genesis from slashing head-on at that bitch? Remember the type of strenght Genesis possess? He was on a level with Zack and Sephiroth, the guys strong enough to cut off Jenova's head.

Jenova. The being who could drive a planet into a bigger planet, walk out and start the apocalypse. The being whom the Ancients, that could channel the planet's power to literally rend the earth apart, could not do as much as seal her.
Sephiroth just casually cuts her head off. He casually cuts the Cannon that incinerated Weapons as If they were butter. That is a guy close to Gen.

So what exactly is the problem with Genesis stopping Omega?

 

[ForceStealer]

Jenova. The being who could drive a planet into a bigger planet, walk out and start the apocalypse. The being whom the Ancients, that could channel the planet's power to literally rend the earth apart, could not do as much as seal her.

She was also braindead. He didn't fight her and claim her head. She was just chilling there and he sliced off her head. You or I could have done it.

I don't know where you're getting that Vincent jsut told Omega to piss off, but you're right in that it was Omega and Chaos' relationship that allowed him to kill it, that's what I'm saying. Yes, Vincent couldn't defeat Sephiroth becuase Sephiroth would beat Chaos. As we already said Cloud could probably beat Chaos. But only Chaos could beat Omega because of their relationship.

I don't see how Cloud or Genesis could defeat Omega by themselves, that's silly. In FF7 it took all of Avalanche fully loaded with powerful materia to just DETER Diamon Weapon, they couldn't even kill it. Ultima weapon took, again, a fully-loaded Avalanche chasing it all over the planet to take it out.

How could you think some dude with a sword could kill that enormous creature?

 

[Lord Noctis]

I think you're confused on a point here. The quote that the creator's said in which Sephiroth is the strongest in the world isn't related just to physical power.

It means that he is the overall strongest being in the world. Which simply means he'd beat Genesis on a fair fight. Becausew he is stronger, overall.

Fair enough I suppose. I just generally tend to take such comments as reffering to raw power. Not just physical, but maical/will power as well. But still, yours is a fair point.

Now, this seems to be a fair assessment, however the only problem is It's highly speculative on the increase between the years.

But I could buy that progression. The only problem is this:

* Sephiroth was not fully trying in the cannon battle, at least, that can be speculated due to:

A) They were in training, playing.

B) Sephiroth didn't use two-hands.

It's possible to speculate Genesis wasn't fully trying either, but then again, wouldn't you agree Sephiroth was winning that fight? When he seemed to up the anti Genesis was kinda thrown flying, when Genesis did that, he halted Sephiroth for a bit until Angeal stopped him from, I don't know, cindering the country.

* The quote that says Sephiroth was the strongest in the BC era all-around.

Well sure Sephiroth wasn't fully trying. I doubt Genesis was either though. AT the very least he wasn't ging for the kill. Rivals or otherwise the two were still friends at this point.

I suppose I would agree that by the end of the fight Sephiroth seemed to be winning, but then as I pointed out before the advantadge had shifted a couple times previously in the fight.

Well, the only point I was trying to make with that was this:

* Sephiroth vs Cloud over the Ruins of Midgar - Two-handing all around. Grunting, lost smirk.

* Seephiroth vs Zack in the Nibelheim Reactor - One instance of two-handing(which nearly killed Zack and beat him pretty badly), smirking at all times, no grunting.

* Sephiroth vs Genesis at the Sister Ray - No instance, to my knowledge. One grunt, smirk.

It is possible the dude wasn't using his full strenght.

Only one point really. Rewatch the Zack vs Sephiroth fight. Specificly the last cutscene. Sephiroth's smirk had dissapeared by that point and he seemed pissed.

Aside from that fair points all around.

I get what you're asying, and you know what? Seems pretty fair. Only a small quote and a couple of facts seem to hinder that a tad.

By the way, what's your opinion of Genesis on the overall scale? I'm just curious because you seem to have good opinions.

Personally I think he sits like, here:

ACC Seph > ACC Cloud > Kadaj >= FFVII Seph > FFVII Cloud > BC Seph > Zack > Genesis = Angeal > The rest.

Well, my scale would look similiar, but with some differences.

ACC Seph>ACC Cloud>FFVII Seph>FFVII Cloud=BC/CC Sephiroth=>?Kadaj>Zack>Genesis=Angeal>Chaos Vincent>Omega Weiss>Everybody else

Only whose placement I'm not sure of is Kadaj. I have a tendency to flip-flop back and forth on whether I view him as being closer Nibel Sephrioth, or Nibel Zack in terms of strength.