Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (gameplay/combat)

[hian]

It doesn't allow me to play the way I want though. I want the game to require me or at least provide great benefit to me using all of the imagined characters, I want the game to be more difficult if I neglect important party members.

So let's say we have an open ended system that has a default setting that is set up exactly like you want, but also a non-default option that allows everyone else to whatever they want -
How do you square your opinion off with such a set-up?

At the end of the day all you're saying here is - I don't want a game to have options that might make me feel as if I'm not being completely dictated to how to play the game, because... feelz?

This does not happen in the materia system. We have very different thinking which is what I have said from the start and you are not wrong in your preference.

Again, I am not talking about preferences here, I am talking about reasons for holding preferences - I am talking about the fact that preferring a system that only includes X, over a system that includes X,Y, and Z, makes no sense by any metric period.

You did one thing though, you attempted to point out that there is indeed one factor that the less versatile system has that more versatile system does not - namely the very lack of versatility in and of itself.
But once again, you're wrong because it's completely possible to create a game that allows for both - hence maximum versatility.

FFX international for instance allows you to choose at the beginning which sphere grid you want to use. You can use the one you would prefer, and the one I would prefer.
It doesn't get more open ended than that - so answer me this, would you still prefer the game to not have that option?

However you are wrong in assuming the materia system allows me to play how I want, it doesn't.

Actually, by your own words previously, it does. It's not my fault that you can't keep consistent.

I don't want to create artificial difficulty for myself,

All difficulties are artificial, and subject to the player.

I don't want to make up the characters in my imagination, I love the games story because somebody else thought up these brilliant characters.

And you don't have to, because we're not talking about the story - we're talking about the character progression system, and combat, which has nothing do do with the story what so ever 99% of the time, except to the extent that it is a symbolic representation of the fact that your cast sometimes fights things.

Or do you really think Cloud, Tifa and Barret stood and waited in line to attack the Air-Buster, and Tifa was knocking it around with her fists, despite being just a normal human being?

You are already forced to imagine the context of the characters of every FF game ever made in regards to combat and character development, because literally non of them are actually made to have the two things be tied consistently together in any meaningful sense.

Yet you, and most other people here probably don't care. You only care when it's whatever system you for whatever reason have an emotional bias against.

I don't want to be limited by my own imagination, I want to experience somebody elses.

I.E "I want to be limited to the expression of the imagination of someone else."

Again though - the story is the story, and that remains untouchable in either case. Furthermore, the materia system is a part of the story of FFVII, so this point is moot in relation to that particular system.

Therefore yes I want square enix to give the characters personalities in combat and yes I want to play them that way.

And there you went off the boat again -
They can give them personalities in combat and still also allow players who want to to pick another personality to do so.
They just need to have a default option for guys like you, and non-default options for everyone else.

You're once again engaging in the fallacious thinking of "allowing people to pick both X and Y means that X isn't a real thing anymore".

I guess at the end of the day my answer is a resounding yes, I prefer to be told by square enix what cloud is like in combat and how he differs from tifa, I don't want to make that up myself.

Well, Square did tell us what Cloud and Co are like in combat - they did so quite well with story-beats and limit-breaks, and they told us that magic is purely the domain of materia, and in that they are all the same.

That being said - there is nothing about open-ended systems that preclude game developers from telling you one thing, while also allowing you to do something else.
In fact, they do so all the time.

And I liked that I didn't have the ability to imagine tidus as the black mage, because it wasn't my story it was squares, and I enjoyed that they made him play how they envisioned him being in combat.

Good for you. The issue here is that you not imagining Tidus as a black mage, and having the choice to play him as you did, is all you ever needed to construct the experience you wanted from the game - and you did.
At the same time, the game allowed those with a different conception to do something else, at no cost to your experience what so ever.

I have no doubt what so ever, that given the international version, and your conception of Tidus, you'd still play Tidus as if it was the original version.
How is that in any cheapened by the added option of early one being able to set him on a completely different path, if someone else should see fit to do so?

I still don't agree that open ended systems are a win-win. Certain kinds of stories can be told with fixed roles that can't be told with an open ended system, a setting can establish that summoners are born, not made, either you have the skills or you don't.

And as I said - that is irrelevant, because stories in video-games are not dictated by the logic of their battle systems.
Not even in the slightest.
Having Vivi start out as a black mage, and then be a black mage outside combat, but having him be a knight in battle, has no bearing on the plot of the game what so ever, and is only going to be an issue for people who don't want him to be knight - but hey, they aren't going to make him a knight to begin with are they, so how exactly does it make sense for them to be bothered by it?

That's the point I'm trying to make here.

In an open-ended system, a player is free to play as they please - that means, in accordance to their conception of the story - or in spite of it.
The possibility of the latter however, has absolutely no bearing on anything except the experience of those who would like that to be an option though - because guess what? The people who don't like that option aren't going to make use of it, hence should not have anything to be bothered by.

Again, the most salient point that can be made in this discussion has already been made, and conveniently ignored by everyone on the other side of the fence :
The addition of cheats, a random encounter turn-off switch, and speed-up play to the FFVII port for PS4.

Do you guys think, or do you not, that this detracts from the game?
If not, how are you squaring that with your stance on character progression systems?

If you have a level of control over the battle system, you can use it for storytelling (Zidane has an oddly powerful trance, what's that about) In FF13, because the characters had fixed Eidolons, it was possible to have them summoned in cutscenes to solve problems faced by the characters.

And you can still do that in an open-ended character system by simply establishing what role is supposed to be canon from a plot-perspective.

No PCs can cast magic in cutscenes in FF7, because the devs can't know what's equipped. (I am not arguing against the materia system, to be clear, but I don't think that fixed roles are something that must be eliminated from every game ever either.)

That's a result of technical limitations though - not one of the system itself.

Given the time and resources, you could easily make in-game engine cut-scenes where how they play out is based on variables connected to the character's equipment.

As for fixed roles being eliminated - In the sense that, I think there is always be an alternative to un-fix them if possible, yes I think it should be done away with.
That is not to say however, I think we should do away with the alternative to play with fixed roles like in the FFX International version.

As far being penalised if you hate close to half the cast (including heavily plot relevant ones you'll be seeing a lot of anyway) and refuse on principle to use the tools given to you, maybe you're playing the wrong game?

How much of a game must you enjoy before it's the right game?

Take FFIX - I loved the world, the sound-track, the overall story, and most of the cast minus Eiko, Quina, Zidane, and the monk character.
Let's change it around though, and switch Zidane for Garnet just for the sake of argument.

Am I really playing the wrong game, or is there something worth criticizing about the game if all it had to do in order to greatly increase my enjoyment of it was to allow me to select my own party, and swap their classes around?

If you're playing an Arkham game, and refuse to use the grapnel on principle, does it make sense to complain that the game is now too difficult?

Bad analogy.
Let's say Batman had two grapples - one that looked and felt like shit, but was great for getting around, and one that looked and felt awesome, but was shit for getting around.
At that point, I think I'd ask myself "why didn't they just allow the player to customize the grapple, and choose a look and feel for themselves?", and I think that it would be entirely fair to say that a customization option would be superior to not having one.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Again though - the story is the story, and that remains untouchable in either case. Furthermore, the materia system is a part of the story of FFVII, so this point is moot in relation to that particular system.

Not to mention that people in the world of FFVII rely on Materia in order to use magic and summons both in story and in the gameplay. Without the materia, how else can magic and summons exist since the Ancients/Cetra are pretty much extinct?

Plus, this small arguement about the gameplay system here is starting to get a little ridiculous. No offense, guys. But in terms of any gameplay in any sort of game, you can't always get what you want.

Simple as that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And as I said - that is irrelevant, because stories in video-games are not dictated by the logic of their battle systems.
Not even in the slightest.

I want to chime in here to say that -- despite overwhelming agreement with 99% of what you're saying -- I get what t0mmy is driving at here. One of the highest aspirations in (some) game design is to help tell the story through the gameplay -- i.e. to integrate the gameplay into the actual storytelling.

Some games achieve this better than others; some strive for this more than others. It really depends on the game being made/played whether the higher aspiration on the table is the most seamless integration possible (the "Uncharted" games are really good at this); an opportunity for the player to "tell their own story"; an opportunity for the player to have the most fun gameplay experience possible; or something else.

Of course, even where a better blend of story and gameplay is desired on the design end, it's entirely possible for them to include a more open-ended development system since, as you put it, "you can still do that in an open-ended character system by simply establishing what role is supposed to be canon from a plot-perspective."

So perhaps the more interesting question for me here is whether/to what extent should developers feel inclined to establish open-ended gameplay outside their own vision for the story they want to tell? Obviously no one is beholden to anyone in this regard, though it's a nice -- and potentially more lucrative -- gesture.

 

[Octo]

Wouldn't it be funny if they just went with that fucking cards thing like that Kingdom Hearts on the GBA

 

[hian]

I want to chime in here to say that -- despite overwhelming agreement with 99% of what you're saying -- I get what t0mmy is driving at here. One of the highest aspirations in (some) game design is to help tell the story through the gameplay -- i.e. to integrate the gameplay into the actual storytelling.

Of course.

But I also think it's worth mentioning that games are abstract by nature.
What separates a "game" from just another activity, is its abstraction and the entertainment value of that abstraction.
You don't play tag, or poker to simulate something real - you do it for your enjoyment of the very system of the game itself, and this will always be partly true for anything called a game.

This is especially apparent in video-games, and even more so in RPGs, which are some of the most abstract games in existence with their use of numericals, dice-rolls etc.

I also think video-games can never truly integrate story with the abstraction of game-play, because essentially, even when making a simulation game, the obvious fact that it isn't real to begin with demands concessions in design.

You mention Uncharted for instance - but again, you have a game where the main character has a life-bar of sorts, and can be shot repeatedly, but will still act in cut-scenes as if a single shot will kill him.

Most of the concessions of games are made specifically to make game-play more enjoyable, because ultimately, you're playing a game, not reading a book or playing a movie.

The traditional command-based RPG battle mode for instance is meant to allow for a more strategic and deliberate approach to combat, whilst also allowing full control/micro-management of a party of characters.
This system might mean that the combat will be incongruent with a lot of the lore of the story or the plot, but it will also mean that the combat will be more enjoyable to a lot of people, and ultimately, since you're playing a game, the enjoyment of the game-play aspects must to some extent take precedence over story elements, simply because if it doesn't, you might as well not have made a game to begin with.

Some games achieve this better than others; some strive for this more than others. It really depends on the game being made/played whether the higher aspiration on the table is the most seamless integration possible (the "Uncharted" games are really good at this); an opportunity for the player to "tell their own story"; an opportunity for the player to have the most fun gameplay experience possible; or something else.

Yeah, and if we we're talking about something other than FF, I would probably more on board with the attitude of T0mmy.
However, we're talking about games whose game-play is already largely abstract and incongruent with the story/lore etc.

Of course, even where a better blend of story and gameplay is desired on the design end, it's entirely possible for them to include a more open-ended development system since, as you put it, "you can still do that in an open-ended character system by simply establishing what role is supposed to be canon from a plot-perspective."

So perhaps the more interesting question for me here is whether/to what extent should developers feel inclined to establish open-ended gameplay outside their own vision for the story they want to tell? Obviously no one is beholden to anyone in this regard, though it's a nice -- and potentially more lucrative -- gesture.

Ultimately, I think creators are free to do whatever they want, and my argument is more of an abstract one of principle.

I'd say that if a creator could create an entire open game at no extra cost or inconvenience, then that would be superior, simply because it would add content and reach, at no cost.
In reality though, freedom in games cost - and it costs a lot, and so it's perfectly sensible for creators to focus on limited stories and limited game-play experiences.

There are however examples of game-play systems being restricted when they don't need to be, and this is were I think one can talk of a game-play design being objectively bad.
Creating a game with random encounters and no method of skipping it, in today's day and age, is one such example.
Adding a button to switch random encounters off, can literally be done in matter of minutes.
If a game fails at providing this freedom to players at this point - it can only be described as willfully alienating players while adding nothing of value to the game.

Wouldn't it be funny if they just went with that fucking cards thing like that Kingdom Hearts on the GBA

Or even better, they turned all encounters into QTEs! YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT.

 

[t0mmyg]

Hian, you are starting to get what I am saying. When you say that something like 10 international is a happy medium, I agree with that. I wouldn't say that it is a bad design concept. As long as they are able to keep the pacing and difficulty similar then there is absolutely no reason why something like that wouldn't please both of us. The main point being that by default the character started out in a spot that square envisioned the character being, but if you wanted to swap them all around, so be it. I still prefer 10 North American but my argument for that is exactly what you said........because feelz! Sometimes you can't quite perfectly express in words why it is you enjoyed something, you just did! Not everything boils down to pure logic, that's part of being human and not robots.

Also twilight mexican, I appreciate that you can disagree with me and at the same time understand where I'm coming from.

I get why people love the materia system, funny thing is when I first play 9 and 10 I didn't like the combat as much because 7 was the first one I played. I didn't mind them, but for me, 7 was how it was supposed to be. The roles, and the characters not feeling like individual powerhouses just didn't quite sit right with me. It wasn't until years later when discussing with my friend about our favorite final fantasies that we both decided to play through each others favs. After he played 7 and I played 10 again, with more knowledge of what makes a good game, I had to admit to myself that I enjoyed playing 10 more. I still prefered 7's world, atmosphere and story but, even though I didn't love 10's story (it was decent) I still felt a connection to the characters. I couldn't put my finger on it for a while but I realised more than the actual story, the gameplay told a story for me. He couldn't dig the materia system but agreed 7 had awesome music, and characters and grit. Those games are now both my favorite final fantasy games for different reasons. Since then I've always imagined them mashed together to create the perfect experience.

 

[t0mmyg]

Like one person said though "you can't always get what you want". And more than likely we'll end up with something that all of us go "meh..."

 

[hian]

Hian, you are starting to get what I am saying. When you say that something like 10 international is a happy medium, I agree with that. I wouldn't say that it is a bad design concept. As long as they are able to keep the pacing and difficulty similar then there is absolutely no reason why something like that wouldn't please both of us. The main point being that by default the character started out in a spot that square envisioned the character being, but if you wanted to swap them all around, so be it. I still prefer 10 North American but my argument for that is exactly what you said........because feelz! Sometimes you can't quite perfectly express in words why it is you enjoyed something, you just did! Not everything boils down to pure logic, that's part of being human and not robots.

I think I understand where you're coming from just fine and have done so for quite some time. My problem is that you don't seem to understand that where you're coming from makes no sense, and saying "well, it's just the way I feel, so that's the end of it" is not a constructive mind-set to be in.

Human's don't feel arbitrarily - we feel because of reasons. Sometimes those reasons are congruent with our values and our well-being, and sometimes they are not, and there is value to be had discussing why we feel a certain way, and addressing and changing those feelings if we find that they don't make sense.

If you met a person who just felt it was okay to strangle babies, I am pretty sure you would not accept the attitude or response you have given here, and while granted there is a huge difference between what we're talking about here, and strangling babies, I think the reason it's worth being pedantic about is because we are all part of a larger human eco-system, where the thoughts and attitudes of people have an effect not just on the person holding the thoughts and attitudes, but also the people that person interacts with the influences that follows.

You say you prefer the American version of FFX, but there is literally no reason to prefer it when the International Version includes the vanilla set-up of the American version, and the new open set-up, and you get to choose which one to use at the beginning of the game.
If you choose the vanilla set up, then you are playing the American version, and since you cannot revert back after choosing, you're literally faced with the exact same restriction that you had and enjoyed in the American version.

To say you still prefer the American version, is like saying "I prefer the 5th Star Wars movie over the box set version that includes all the movies".
I defy you to find a single metric with which that preference makes even a semblance of sense, or has any positive significance to your experience what so ever, and so why on earth is it worth holding on to?

I get why people love the materia system, funny thing is when I first play 9 and 10 I didn't like the combat as much because 7 was the first one I played. I didn't mind them, but for me, 7 was how it was supposed to be. The roles, and the characters not feeling like individual powerhouses just didn't quite sit right with me. It wasn't until years later when discussing with my friend about our favorite final fantasies that we both decided to play through each others favs. After he played 7 and I played 10 again, with more knowledge of what makes a good game, I had to admit to myself that I enjoyed playing 10 more. I still prefered 7's world, atmosphere and story but, even though I didn't love 10's story (it was decent) I still felt a connection to the characters. I couldn't put my finger on it for a while but I realised more than the actual story, the gameplay told a story for me. He couldn't dig the materia system but agreed 7 had awesome music, and characters and grit. Those games are now both my favorite final fantasy games for different reasons. Since then I've always imagined them mashed together to create the perfect experience.

It's not even that I love the materia system all that much. I prefer X's sphere grid although it is less versatile early on in terms of inter-character customization, simply because it affords more versatility in terms of skill set-up (In FFVII, getting Fire 3 for instance, requires you to level up a Fire Materia, from 1-3. In FFX, your character could learn Firaga without first learning Fire and Fira, which saves the player a lot of time when doing end-game customization when you start to branch characters).

Again, I am simply arguing for the presence of choice where choice might be had, and where additional choices have no bearing on the experience of those who want to go with the default opinion.

I see perfectly well that there is a difference in the average person's reaction to a system that forces each character to a specific class and one that does not - however, if a game can be made to allow people to either stick with the forced class, or to play without that restriction, I see no reason for not making such a game - and I see no reason to prefer it not to be the case, any more than preferring games not to have difficulty settings, cheat codes, options to change button mapping, or what character to play a game with - all options that are fairly regular in games.

And so, I'd like as many people to be on board with that as possible, because ultimately, the attitudes of gamers informs developers on how to design their games.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Still agreeing with 99% of what you're saying, but there are, frankly, a lot of things in the human condition that come down to just "That's how I feel" without any discernible rhyme or reason to be found.

It's not the most satisfactory answer in this case since, as you pointed out, the International version of FFX does include the original Sphere Grid -- but I'm just pointing out that not everything ultimately does require sound justification. For instance, I far and away favor FFVIII over FFVII despite loving both, and despite recognizing that VII is overall a better game in most respects.

To say you still prefer the American version, is like saying "I prefer the 5th Star Wars movie over the box set version that includes all the movies".

If we were talking about a set of all the "Pirates of the Carribean" movies vs. just the first one, I'd totally get the minimalist choice .

 

[hian]

Still agreeing with 99% of what you're saying, but there are, frankly, a lot of things in the human condition that come down to just "That's how I feel" without any discernible rhyme or reason to be found.

That we cannot find it does not however mean that it isn't there, or that in the cases where we can identify no discernible reason to hold to a negative position, that the lack of an understanding of the underlying causes means we aren't warranted in throwing that position under the bus.

There might be very many things that seems to be "that's just the way I feel", but that is not a reply of meaning to the point I made - that if all you can say for a response you have is "that's just the way I feel", when the feeling you have, objectively speaking, is without rhyme or reason (and/or worse has a direct negative impact on you), then it's still by any and all metrics better for you to aspire to stop feeling that way.

A person who feels he just wants to strangle babies might be completely ignorant of why he feels that way, as may all of us evaluating him be too, but that does not change the fact that we would not offer up the debate on whether or not that is a constructive feeling to the ether by default.

It's not the most satisfactory answer in this case since, as you pointed out, the International version of FFX does include the original Sphere Grid -- but I'm just pointing out that not everything ultimately does require sound justification. For instance, I far and away favor FFVIII over FFVII despite loving both, and despite recognizing that VII is overall a better game in most respects.

Sure, but that has more to do with the fact that there are more variables going into that equation than what you can currently perhaps control for.

Looking more closely on the distinction there, you could probably find completely valid reasons for you preference that have no negative impact on your life or the lives of others what so ever.

For instance, my favorite FF game is VII by far, despite the fact that I think the combat and character progression systems are better in X, that VIII has a better world-map, and all games after it has better produced music.

My reason for liking FFVII better though has to do with my preference for the visual design of the game, the characters, the compositions of the sound-track, and the way the game resonates with me due to how heavy it reflects 90's design trends, which I happen to enjoy more than say, the 80's or 00's.

This kind of difference in preference is not analogues however to the difference that we've discussed up to this point because the specifics I prefer here are not interchangeable with any of the other games in the series, nor something that could be included in any of the other games without overwriting the designs of those games entirely.

Here, you literally have to make a choice one way or the other.

Again, my principle of evaluating the validity of an emotional response is literally limited to situations where a person has a preference for an [item X], over an [item X and Y].
This is not a principle that applies to "I enjoy X, but not Y, and will therefore pick X over Y, even if I cannot identify why I enjoy X more than why", it's a principle that applies to "I like X over Y, and even though I am offered both at the same time at cost to me, I'd still prefer not to have Y"

If we were talking about a set of all the "Pirates of the Carribean" movies vs. just the first one, I'd totally get the minimalist choice .

Granted I think you were partly joking here, that would still be a "dumb" thing for you to do.
After all, you could take the rest of the box-set and sell it.
Or maybe you have a family member who would enjoy those other titles, and you could give it to them which would make them happy.
Or you could burn them to indulge hatred for them, and feel a deep sense of satisfaction afterwards.

My point here still stands I think - even if you hate the rest of Pirates of the Carribean movies - it still wouldn't make sense for you to pick 1 over the complete collection edition, if both were presented to you for the exact same cost.

And, again - if all that a person can throw up at that point is "well, I just feel like that", then that is the point where that person should evaluate their feelings and seriously consider ignoring them. Permanently - until they go away.
Feelings are not some sort of holy grail exempt from critical analysis, and they are not all equally valid or useful.
Some feelings are wholly unproductive, useless, counter-productive and detrimental to a person's well-being.

If you emotional responses which you don't know the reasons for are costing you, and/or others, in some way when they don't have to - they are not feelings worth indulging or having.

 

[Tashasaurous]

It's not the most satisfactory answer in this case since, as you pointed out, the International version of FFX does include the original Sphere Grid -- but I'm just pointing out that not everything ultimately does require sound justification. For instance, I far and away favor FFVIII over FFVII despite loving both, and despite recognizing that VII is overall a better game in most respects.

Sure, but that has more to do with the fact that there are more variables going into that equation than what you can currently perhaps control for.

Looking more closely on the distinction there, you could probably find completely valid reasons for you preference that have no negative impact on your life or the lives of others what so ever.

For instance, my favorite FF game is VII by far, despite the fact that I think the combat and character progression systems are better in X, that VIII has a better world-map, and all games after it has better produced music.

My reason for liking FFVII better though has to do with my preference for the visual design of the game, the characters, the compositions of the sound-track, and the way the game resonates with me due to how heavy it reflects 90's design trends, which I happen to enjoy more than say, the 80's or 00's.

This kind of difference in preference is not analogues however to the difference that we've discussed up to this point because the specifics I prefer here are not interchangeable with any of the other games in the series, nor something that could be included in any of the other games without overwriting the designs of those games entirely.

Here, you literally have to make a choice one way or the other.

Again, my principle of evaluating the validity of an emotional response is literally limited to situations where a person has a preference for an [item X], over an [item X and Y].
This is not a principle that applies to "I enjoy X, but not Y, and will therefore pick X over Y, even if I cannot identify why I enjoy X more than why", it's a principle that applies to "I like X over Y, and even though I am offered both at the same time at cost to me, I'd still prefer not to have Y"

I think we can all agree here that everyone has different tastes in games and movies throughout the 90's and the 2000's.

FFVII is amazing, but when it comes to graphics, I prefer the graphics of Advent Children era, while in the 90's situation, I prefer the original anime of Sailor Moon. 1999 has Mickey Mouse Works perfectly for me.

But again, that's a different situation. Like I said, everyone likes different things.

If we were talking about a set of all the "Pirates of the Carribean" movies vs. just the first one, I'd totally get the minimalist choice

Granted I think you were partly joking here, that would still be a "dumb" thing for you to do.
After all, you could take the rest of the box-set and sell it.
Or maybe you have a family member who would enjoy those other titles, and you could give it to them which would make them happy.
Or you could burn them to indulge hatred for them, and feel a deep sense of satisfaction afterwards.

My point here still stands I think - even if you hate the rest of Pirates of the Carribean movies - it still wouldn't make sense for you to pick 1 over the complete collection edition, if both were presented to you for the exact same cost.

And, again - if all that a person can throw up at that point is "well, I just feel like that", then that is the point where that person should evaluate their feelings and seriously consider ignoring them. Permanently - until they go away.
Feelings are not some sort of holy grail exempt from critical analysis, and they are not all equally valid or useful.
Some feelings are wholly unproductive, useless, counter-productive and detrimental to a person's well-being.

If you emotional responses which you don't know the reasons for are costing you, and/or others, in some way when they don't have to - they are not feelings worth indulging or having.

Not sure why Pirates of the Caribbean has any problems, since I loved all first three films. The fourth was kind of a fizzer for me, though.

But then again, I'm one of those types who likes sequels and continuing adventures of protagonists from previous titles that featured them.

But um, then again...why is everyone talking about other things like movies in this forum? Aren't we talking about FFVII Remake's gameplay and such related to the remake?

Plus, the original game was huge, and with added scenes from the Compilation as well as new scenes for the remake, it's no wonder it'll be released separatedly.

Plus it's not like you can remaster all of the FFVII titles like they did with all of the KH titles while still adding more prequels and spin-offs to keep us busy while we wait for KH3.

If they continued the Compilation after Dirge and then remake Before Crisis in HD 3D render, I think it would've made things a bit easier.

But then again I'm talking silliness again, this time due to the fact that I didn't get a decent night's sleep due to the gusting winds at 120KM/H that kept me awake up until 2 30 am in the morning, and the winds are still going that I'll have to stay up until tomorrow night.

But no one really knows how the Remake is going to turn out since it's still early in development. At least we'll have some Cloud time in World of Final Fantasy this year(and maybe Cloud in KH3 hopefully next year)

 

[Octo]

@ Hian: But what if, by buying the box set Pirates of the Carribean, you're contributing to the sales figures for the inferior films in the series, and in a miniscule way encouraging the studio to make more crap? And then you and others would suffer in the long run

(I'm not debating or anything, I just like thinking about these nightmare scenarios)

 

[t0mmyg]

I don't disagree with you Hian that the international version is probably measurably superior in its option to please more people. And it in no way affects my individual experience with the game. You are right I probably do feel the way I do for a reason, however all I'm saying is its difficult to put into words so, I just left it at that. One reason I though of was that just like when discussing the story with my friends it was nice to discuss the gameplay as well and the fact that square forced us to share a similar experience meant we discussed all of the characters in a similar light, we got to share the experience of them and what they were like in the gameplay.

That being said you could also share an experience having chosen completely different paths for the characters albeit the discussion would be one about why you liked doing very different things with your characters.

At the end of the day I think it boils down to me liking somewhat more limited focused scenarios because I like to glean peoples thoughts and opinions who have shared a very similar experience. Therefore if we all experienced Tidus as the peppy, fast charismatic buffer we could all discuss him in that light.

Again its a very minor quabble and probably not even worth discussing but because you pressed I thought I would go deeper and let you know that my thoughts aren't completely arbitrary.

 

[t0mmyg]

It's funny you mentioned the pirates of the carribean boxed set vs original. I had the choice of the boxed set or just the first one, and I did in fact go with just the first one. Mostly because of feels. But if probed it probably came down to simply the smaller packaging taking up less shelf space.

 

[t0mmyg]

Just thought about what would be the "perfect" scenario for me. Something that played like 10 North American the first playthrough then new game plus had the international style. However I'd like to add I'm not advocating for the removal of materia I very much want it in the game and want it to have a HUGE impact. I mentioned like diablos gear and people seemed to think it needed to be more important than that, but if you've played a lot of diablo 2 you know that the game is all about the gear. The characters trees become vastly inferior without the gear to compliment them.

 

[hian]

@ Hian: But what if, by buying the box set Pirates of the Carribean, you're contributing to the sales figures for the inferior films in the series, and in a miniscule way encouraging the studio to make more crap? And then you and others would suffer in the long run

(I'm not debating or anything, I just like thinking about these nightmare scenarios)

That's actually a fair point, and should be considered.
It's not like there's a limit to the extent of an analysis you could put to a scenario like this.
That could be a very real concern to some people - but again, that would be an actual reason you could articulate and argue as opposed to simply brushing off as a "feeling" that you have for no apparent reason.

I don't disagree with you Hian that the international version is probably measurably superior in its option to please more people. And it in no way affects my individual experience with the game. You are right I probably do feel the way I do for a reason, however all I'm saying is its difficult to put into words so, I just left it at that. One reason I though of was that just like when discussing the story with my friends it was nice to discuss the gameplay as well and the fact that square forced us to share a similar experience meant we discussed all of the characters in a similar light, we got to share the experience of them and what they were like in the gameplay.

That being said you could also share an experience having chosen completely different paths for the characters albeit the discussion would be one about why you liked doing very different things with your characters.

At the end of the day I think it boils down to me liking somewhat more limited focused scenarios because I like to glean peoples thoughts and opinions who have shared a very similar experience. Therefore if we all experienced Tidus as the peppy, fast charismatic buffer we could all discuss him in that light.

Again its a very minor quabble and probably not even worth discussing but because you pressed I thought I would go deeper and let you know that my thoughts aren't completely arbitrary.

That's actually a much more coherent and useful view though, which shows that clearly there is more to your preference than just a feeling.

You would then argue that part of the value of a game's experience to you is how you share it with others, and that you enjoy designs that create an environment for discussions around shared experiences?

That would have been a much better starting point for a discussion on design in this context.

I guess my only peeve with that is that I don't necessarily think any amount of limitation on story or game-play can actually guarantee you that to begin with -
Even with more static game-play and story, there are vast disagreements in fandoms when it comes to their conceptions about the experience they had of any particular game. You need go no further than this forum to see this play out.

Messaging is ambiguous - whatever meaning I encode into what I say, write or do, it all has to be decoded by the people on the other end, and will be interpreted by them in light of their specific mind-sets, experiences, feelings etc. and so there will never be one true and perfect transmission of meaning.
Furthermore, the people who're encoding don't even have full oversight and control of what they themselves are encoding, leading to more ambiguity.

If we're bound to have disagreements about the material we engage with in either case, why bother going out of our way to try to ensure a uniform conception to begin with?
Why not just let people engage in their preferred way, and then seek out the people who happen to share your conception?
Moreover, the people who would share your conception of Tidus and want to engage with you about your shared experience of him - well, they'd be playing the old sphere grid on the international version of the game - and the people who don't share your conception, or do not want to - well, they'd probably either opt not to play the game, or not talk to you about it anyway because they didn't like Tidus.

So are you really loosing out on anything by the addition of a system that allows for a different conception of Tidus?
Well, maybe - but most likely not nearly enough to be worthy of note.
EDIT : Also, seeing as how I compartmentalize battles and story entirely in FF, you could still have a discussion about this peppy, fast and charismatic Tidus with me, because even if he was my party's heaviest hitter and DPS go-to character in battle, I still think the story establishes him as being pretty much what you consider him to be.

Also, there is no such thing as a thing not worth discussing. Discussing things, especially things that relate to what's going on in our heads is probably one of the most healthy things a person can engage in for the sake of their intellectual life =P

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Messaging is ambiguous - whatever meaning I encode into what I say, write or do, it all has to be decoded by the people on the other end, and will be interpreted by them in light of their specific mind-sets, experiences, feelings etc. and so there will never be one true and perfect transmission of meaning.
Furthermore, the people who're encoding don't even have full oversight and control of what they themselves are encoding, leading to more ambiguity.

Conversations like this are when I knew I was going down the right path taking communications and journalism in university.

At least in so far as my intellectual edification is concerned. Financially it probably wasn't the best call to stick with what I loved.

But um, then again...why is everyone talking about other things like movies in this forum? Aren't we talking about FFVII Remake's gameplay and such related to the remake?

They were being used for the sake of illustration in a conversation on the topic of the remake. Those movies were not themselves the topic of the discussion.

 

[Ite]

Massaging is ambiguous? I should call Marcellus Wallace immediatety.

 

[Clement Rage]

(psst...that was a baseless rumour in the movie anyway.)

Wrote a long post, then lost it. May come back to it.

Semi-aside: I always found the insane killing sprees in the Uncharted gameplay to be extremely jarring, actually. I enjoyed Tomb Raider: Anniversary because Natla's five hired guns were more effective than the vast armies of Amanda Evert et al.

Integration may not be entirely possible, but it is often a mark of a truly great game where the effort has been made. Little touches like Old Snake losing Psyche whenever anyone disses him in a cutscene add something to the experience.

Edit: Forgot to mention

But in terms of any gameplay in any sort of game, you can't always get what you want.

This is still the smartest thing anyone has said in the last three pages.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When it was Dagger losing her voice and becoming useless in battle in FFIX, though, it just pissed me right the hell off.

 

[hian]

When it was Dagger losing her voice and becoming useless in battle in FFIX, though, it just pissed me right the hell off.

I had forgotten about that...

 

[Clement Rage]

When it was Dagger losing her voice and becoming useless in battle in FFIX, though, it just pissed me right the hell off.

Probably as intended. Like in DMC4, whes re they made the end boss as annoying to fight as possible to make it all the more satisfying when you finally get your claws on him.

I love all the storytelling FF9 does through the battle system. From the SFX in the play to Zidane's weirdly powerful trance, to 'why does a random kid on a different continent have the same abilities as the Alexandrian princess?' It even justifies Quina's quest to eat everything.

 

[ForceStealer]

I never liked that SFX didn't do damage in the battle that's a part of the play. I understand that it doesn't against Steiner.

 

[Clement Rage]

That might confuse people. 'What, they actually set each other on fire in the name of art'?

Playing Tales of Xillia lately, by the way, I disliked my primary healer (well, more her sock puppet pet), but it was a total non issue because I just used the other one. Which was fine for the vast majority of the game, it only became an issue in the very hardest encounters.

 

[Ite]

That might confuse people. 'What, they actually set each other on fire in the name of art'?

Take note, Jared Leto.

I'm kind of hoping for an implementation of costume options. Mostly if the Tifa-somersault-panty-shots are going to be too much... I hate her Rinoa-inspired AC outfit, but tbh her OG outfit might manifest differently in a non-FF battle system.* On the one hand, go panty shots! Sex is great, sexy people are great, and on the other hand, I want to focus on a character in a life/death situation, not get a nosebleed. I dunno, how did they handle it in Dissidia?

*non-FF meaning anything other than enemies on one side, heroes on the other, all waiting patiently to execute their moves. I realize that FFX was the last title to use this style.