Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (gameplay/combat)

[pxp]

^ I'm thinking nothing sounds too crazy or out of the realms of possibility for this remake; which sounds either great or scary to me depending on my mood lol.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Obviously you raise valid points, and you just have to hope that the devs are thinking about these things carefully. Let's go back to the Fire example though. In the game demo snippet at E3, we saw Cloud cast Fire, which basically looked like a small fireball. For arguments sake, let's say Fire 2 could be two small fireballs (1 1/2x damage as Fire 1), and Fire 3 three smaller (or maybe slightly larger) fireballs (2x damage as Fire 1). Nothing too insane, and leaving plenty of room for meaningful powerups (visually and attack stat-wise) for Fira and Firaga in later instalments. At the end of the day, doing something like this will make that progression feel more meaningful across what may be a very long series of games, not to mention a long time. Not being able to level up base magic within each instalment will be quote frustrating, I think, in an RPG.

I see what you're saying, but I think problems might arise with that. Using your example, Fire 2 is two small fireballs. What about Fire 2 with All materia? What happens then? Two fireballs to every enemy on screen, or does each fire spell behave differently when paired with All? I'm sure they could think of a solution to this problem, but I personally think it makes way more sense to not carry your save over 1-to-1 between games.

So let's say you have a fully mastered summon materia at the end of part one. Instead of giving you that fully mastered materia in part 2, I think it makes way more sense to, at most, give you access to a base version of that materia (that you might not have had otherwise) at the start of part two.

With the time period between games, it's not going to be a continuous experience like the OG anyway. I don't see how directly carrying over your save file would be worth the potential headaches in later games. How hard would it be to balance the third game when you have to account for everyone from the people starting there to the people who beat every superboss from the first game on?

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is an easy fix.

Just cap the materia at certain levels and upon carry over to the new chapter, the cap is lifted.

Think of the Crystarium of FFXIII. Levels of the Crystarium were locked until completion of either a specific chapter or boss fight. Do the same with Materia growth and level.

 

[ForceStealer]

Some people really didn't like that about the Crystarium. I was totally fine with it, because it meant that if I got stuck, the solution was strategy and not grinding.

But doing that for an ENDGAME, where we have nothing to do but run around Midgar for at least 2 years. Being unable to develop anyone over that time seems like it would be considerably more controversial.

Maybe you say you can grind all the way up but it gets reset to a certain level at the start of part 2 and maybe people like that better than starting over at level 1. I don't know. Every solution feels like something about it is unsatisfying or frustrating.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd rather it be locked. As long as you are leveling up to the best you can for the episode and it's scaled properly to the enemies, I don't care.

It doesn't matter if I'm dealing 99 or 999 damage to an enemy. As long as it's scaled properly, challenging and enjoyable, it'll be good.

 

[Claymore]

Speaking of Materia, I'm really loving the effects on the characters that we can glimpse from the trailers. Barret's hand goes all blue with jolts of static clinging to it when casting, and small wreathes of fire float around Cloud when using Fire. I can't wait to see what higher level Materia will do on both the characters and the enemies.

 

[Ite]

More support materia would help this along very much. Perhaps Firaga damages anyone within melee range of the target and a support materia from Part 2 (let’s call it “sculpt”) would prevent friendly fire, suddenly making Firaga much more useful in a fight.

If they remove even 1 experience point that I earned at the beginning of Part 2 I am gonna be so mad. ^What mako said.

 

[ForceStealer]

If they remove even 1 experience point that I earned at the beginning of Part 2 I am gonna be so mad. ^What mako said.

But I don't want to be rolling into Kalm casually bench-pressing tanks. But at the same time, what exactly am I suspected to do in Midgar in the probably 3 years until Part 2 comes out?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Master slaying the Air Buster in the most optimal and efficient way possible so you can clear the boss in under 3 minutes.

I mean, this is fundamentally the risk and downside to episodic releases. When an episode's done, that's it. You gotta wait. There's no way around it.

I'd rather not have the game experience and balance ruined by having all abilities and magic spells accessible at such an unrealistically early point. Just cap it. The gameplay should be fun and flashy enough that it doesn't matter if you're only hurling Thunder spells at Custom Sweepers instead of Thundaga.

 

[LoonySpectre]

Perhaps, if the game is divided into chapters, experience (and Materia) growth per chapter will be limited too, like, say, in Mass Effect 2?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Limited in what sense?

 

[ForceStealer]

So would your suggestion be that the rate that you level and learn spells/abilities be slowed down directly proportional to the amount the scenario has been stretched out?

 

[LoonySpectre]

Limited in what sense?

In ME2, you didn't get XP from killing enemies at all, only from doing missions. And each mission only gave a set amount of XP.
In the old Heroes of Might & Magic campaigns, you were explicitly told that "your characters can't level up past level X in this chapter", to use a less extreme example.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ahhh I see, I mean that works if they want to do it that hard.

But I'd prefer there just being a cap. I'd imagine it's easier and would allow them to just lift the cap upon release of each episode. They do this in online RPGs too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Makoeyes987
It was you who said this in the "Hopes for the remake (story/content)" thread just a little more than five hours ago:

Its not an exact copy, but the creators aren't going to add in elements completely at odds and divergent with the game and it's original style. FFVII allowed players all the time they needed to prep and explore the world once all resources were afforded to them. It would be poor game design to suddenly add a limiter to the portion of the game most open and explorable.

Why shouldn't that also apply here?

 

[Ite]

To be fair, a time limit is very different from a level cap.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because it would adversely affect gameplay and scenario framing.

Episodic games or games that are chapter based like XIII have hard limits in place in order for the game experience to be optimized for the first run and not power creeped beyond reason. If free reign were potentially given for abilities, materia and stats, it's conceivable a player could make their characters strong enough to the point that they have end-game level stats by the time they just enter part 2.

So either the developers game design off that possibility and make enemies ridiculously difficult to surpass the limits of the previous chapter, accept that they may craft a lukewarm game experience due to the nature of episodic releases, or they can only allow part of the experience points to carry over and reset materia, or they just cap the AP and Experience and prevent the problem from the start.

Either way, something will be lost or limited.

Capping the experience is the cleanest resolution because no one is gonna want to see their hard work and experience removed and most players aren't looking to power level and then face a game where if Cloud sneezes on an enemy, it dies. Developers likewise can only arms race the battle mechanics so far before it becomes unwieldy and absurd. 99,999,999 damage being dealt by Thundaga XVI off a level 348 magic materia is gonna just look silly. Data overflow may be an issue.

The episodic release is already wildly different and at odds with how the original was done so if they are gonna need to change and accommodate the experience and AP systems to match it, they might as well do it now from the start. They need to make the game as enjoyable and balanced as it can be.

 

[Ite]

Level cap me at 15 baby I’m ready. We could level our materia to max, what’s the harm if we don’t have the MP to use the spells?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well when you put it that way, there's no harm per se, regarding overleveled materia. I forgot the MP would be capped as well.

However stat bonuses would need to be tweaked or removed because if materia gives stat bonuses, you now have a back door to raise stats even beyond level cap limits.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because it would adversely affect gameplay ...

Paralysis of the growth system in a single-player RPG would adversely affect gameplay. =P

As well as the crucial work-to-reward element of RPGs.

... and scenario framing.

Well, in the case of Meteor, we agree that a realistic countdown to impending doom should take a backseat. Why not this?

Episodic games or games that are chapter based like XIII have hard limits in place in order for the game experience to be optimized for the first run and not power creeped beyond reason. If free reign were potentially given for abilities, materia and stats, it's conceivable a player could make their characters strong enough to the point that they have end-game level stats by the time they just enter part 2.

I had all my characters at Level 120 in the chapter-based FFXV during Chapter 3. I saw no problems.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

I think having spells that you don't have the MP to cast because of a level cap sounds really frustrating. Anything in the first game that the player has access to should be able to be used, otherwise it makes the first game more advertisement to the second than standalone title. Then again, I think it's way more important that each game is satisfying on its own right; carry-over between games is gravy, and should get the axe if they can't make it work.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Paralysis of the growth system in a single-player RPG would adversely affect gameplay. =P

As well as the crucial work-to-reward element of RPGs.

But it doesn't adversely affect gameplay. Developers have used such a system effectively with plenty of single player RPGs. It was done with FFXIII and it's still one of the most challenging and strategic games in the series.

Well, in the case of Meteor, we agree that a realistic countdown to impending doom should take a backseat. Why not this?

No entire chapter/portion/level/etc of FFVII has ever been under the constant pressure of a real time clock that limits how much exploration and preparation you could do until facing the consequence of Game Over.

Certain portions of the game are timed as challenges but not entire portions and certainly not the last part of the game where open exploration and side quests are finally given to the player.

I had all my characters at Level 120 in the chapter-based FFXV during Chapter 3. I saw no problems.

That's good for you, but you do realize some players actually hate when they over-level through the sheer consequence of never running from battles, right?

One thing that made XIII effective and challenging with its gameplay was that it forced you to work within the parameters of the gameplay caps and win through mastery of the ATB and paradigm system. You couldn't brute force your way through the game and face roll everything.

FFXV is fun and has it's challenging moments but it definitely can reach easy mode levels when you just power level and get the best weapons. Especially the XIV Vortex weapons.

I think having spells that you don't have the MP to cast because of a level cap sounds really frustrating. Anything in the first game that the player has access to should be able to be used, otherwise it makes the first game more advertisement to the second than standalone title.

You can still use the lower level spells of the materia, you just wouldn't be able to cast the spells beyond your MP capacity.

And that was possible in the OG. I leveled up Bolt to Bolt2 but Cloud was unable to cast Bolt2 due to insufficiemt MP. So it's not unprecedented or impossible in FFVII.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

You can still use the lower level spells of the materia, you just wouldn't be able to cast the spells beyond your MP capacity.

And that was possible in the OG. I leveled up Bolt to Bolt2 but Cloud was unable to cast Bolt2 due to insufficiemt MP. So it's not unprecedented or impossible in FFVII.

Yeah, but you could level Cloud up until he could cast that spell in the same game. I was saying that if you can't get the necessary MP in the entire game due to a hard level cap, you shouldn't be able to see the spells you can't cast in a menu somewhere.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's a superficial quibble. Pretend it's not there. Unless you think materia growth should be stunted too.

At least with Ite's idea, grinding AP still serves a purpose and you get rewarded upon carry over and level up. If you want to just stop it's growth. Okay.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But it doesn't adversely affect gameplay.

Yes, it does.

Developers have used such a system effectively with plenty of single player RPGs. It was done with FFXIII and it's still one of the most challenging and strategic games in the series.

Case in point.

It was indeed "used effectively" -- but unfortunately, "effectively" here doesn't involve a positive effect.

No entire chapter/portion/level/etc of FFVII has ever been under the constant pressure of a real time clock that limits how much exploration and preparation you could do until facing the consequence of Game Over.

Certain portions of the game are timed as challenges but not entire portions and certainly not the last part of the game where open exploration and side quests are finally given to the player.

No entire chapter/portion/level/etc of FFVII has ever been under the constant pressure of an artificially imposed growth cap that limits how much combat exploration and preparation you could do. Certainly not the last part of the game where open exploration and sidequests are finally given to the player.

That's good for you, but you do realize some players actually hate when they over-level through the sheer consequence of never running from battles, right?

That's where "Making It Yours" becomes the option that most matters. Other players' irresponsible approach to their own experience isn't my responsibility.

EDIT:

Pretend it's not there.