Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (gameplay/combat)

[Theozilla]

They just need to find a way to make the characters always look like they're always doing something instead of just standing around in a battle. That goes for enemies too. I was refreshing my memory of XII's battle system by watching clips of it on youtube and I was surprised to see one of the stronger optional bosses just standing there for the entire battle letting you attack him. He rarely if ever defended himself or moved. That breaks the immersion. I mean, I can live with it, but they can do soooo much better.

I really don't think there are as many people as you seem to think who are going to agree with you on the "breaking immersion" view to the degree that you feel about it. If there were, games like Pokemon wouldn't still be popular.
For many people regardless of graphically quality/realism of the game as long as the battles are fun they can easily suspend their disbelief as part of the gameplay-story-segregation.

 

[Flintlock]

I don't think the comparison to Pokémon is a relevant one because Pokémon games don't have realistic graphics.

I'm struggling to think of a "triple A" title from the last few years that has HD graphics, realistically proportioned characters, and a turn-based system. If the VII remake was to use that combination, it would be unusual for doing so. That could well be a good thing, but that's not really my point.

 

[Claymore]

I'm confused. Are we honestly saying here that turn-based or strategy RPGs must never have HD graphics because they wouldn't be able to achieve the very nature of their own gameplay immersion?

 

[Flintlock]

I'm definitely not saying that, and I'm not sure anyone else here is, either. But the number of new strategy- or turn-based RPGs seems to be inversely proportional to graphical realism, so it seems that game developers think that way.

 

[Tetsujin]

I did, point still stands.

 

[clowd]

hleV, how do you feel about Cait Sith?

 

[Solordinn]

hello folks new member here and just like you all i am excited to see what this remake will bring to the franchise.

what i hope for in this remake is sort of a dynamic battle system melded with the classic ATB. something in the realm of FFX2 and FF13. and with that i'd like to present what kind of system i envision. (i had to use a hud-disabled battle from FF13 as an example)

much like classic ATB, once the gauge fills, the command menu appears. normally you issue just one command but in mine, you have 3. once 3 commands are entered and the targets of said orders are selected, the menu jumps to the next character ready while the other executes those commands.

like ff13, you cannot manually move the characters. there is a pseudo gambit-like system (FF12) that commands the ai of you character such as barret to move out of the heavy fight zone so as to keep his distance and attack when you tell him to (since he is a long range gunner).

This is what i have so far. (if you know your FFs, you should recognize some elements from other battle system)

 

[Theozilla]

much like classic ATB, once the gauge fills, the command menu appears. normally you issue just one command but in mine, you have 3. once 3 commands are entered and the targets of said orders are selected, the menu jumps to the next character ready while the other executes those commands.

In your hypothetical example, would a player have a choice of which character to jump to next? Like (using your example) after one had entered the commands and targets for Tifa, if both Barret and Cloud's gauges were full but Barret's had filled first, could one issue commands/actions to Cloud before doing so to Barret? Or would one always be constrained to who's gauged had filled first?

 

[leadmyskeptic]

Y'know what's a tiny thing I hope they change, that I keep forgetting to mention and the above post made me think of? It would only apply if they somehow still ended up using a turn-based system, I suppose. But when the limit break meters are full...STILL GIVE ME THE OPTION TO FREAKIN' REGULAR ATTACK!!! I always hated having to use magic (or do nothing) if I wanted to save a Limit once it was full, since you lost that option.

 

[Solordinn]

In your hypothetical example, would a player have a choice of which character to jump to next? Like (using your example) after one had entered the commands and targets for Tifa, if both Barret and Cloud's gauges were full but Barret's had filled first, could one issue commands/actions to Cloud before doing so to Barret? Or would one always be constrained to who's gauged had filled first?

if tifa's atb gauge fills up before clouds, it automatically switches to hers. if the other atbs fill up, you can switch to them

 

[Solordinn]

additionally, the yellow wheel around the characters is the limit gauge. once filled, you have the option to activate your limit break and execute your limit attacks.

 

[Flare]

Y'know what's a tiny thing I hope they change, that I keep forgetting to mention and the above post made me think of? It would only apply if they somehow still ended up using a turn-based system, I suppose. But when the limit break meters are full...STILL GIVE ME THE OPTION TO FREAKIN' REGULAR ATTACK!!! I always hated having to use magic (or do nothing) if I wanted to save a Limit once it was full, since you lost that option.

I like this idea; I like being able to save my limit break for something more useful than a random fight all the time.
Wasn't there another FF game that allowed you to do that? I forget

 

[leadmyskeptic]

Yes! FF8 had the traditional 'desperation attack' method of giving you a limit break specifically when your HP was very low, rather than after receiving a certain amount of hits/damage, which I am not the biggest fan of. But, it had a neat little trick where a glowing and blinking arrow next to the regular "attack" command would let you know it was ready, and you'd simply "slide" over using the d-pad if you wanted to execute the limit, or leave it alone for a regular attack.

 

[Flare]

Oh yeah, that's handy! And also, I finally remembered, X allowed you to save limit breaks too. Why didn't I remember this sooner, X's battle system is one of my faves.

 

[Theozilla]

Another battle system I've heard suggested for basis/inspiration for the FFVIII remake is from Lost Odyssey (which came out at the end of 2007, it's turn-based without any ATB).

From the the game's wiki:

For the most part, Lost Odyssey has a classic battle system that will be easily adapted to by most RPG players. There are items, spells, attacks, and skills: all that good stuff. The first big thing to know, is how turns are decided. Lost Odyssey is a turn based game, in which the player starts the each round by choosing an action for each party member. Once an action has been chosen for each member the player may confirms his selection. With his selection confirmed all party members and enemy units will proceed to execute said actions one after another in turn order. With those actions complete a new round begins. What's interesting here is that turn order is determined independently each round. Each unit's turn placement is based on the casting time or execution time of the action chosen and units relative stats; attack speed for basic attack and commands, casting speed for spells. The times are represented as a number followed by a letter.

. For example one of your characters might have these spells:

Flare (1-B)
Flara (1-D)
Prisma (2-A)

Any thoughts on this type of system?

 

[Wimbly]

Another battle system I've heard suggested for basis/inspiration for the FFVIII remake is from Lost Odyssey (which came out at the end of 2007, it's turn-based without any ATB).

I played through most of Lost Odyssey and enjoyed the battle system. I thought it worked quite well. A system based off the elements used in LO could be very good imo.

Loved the short stories from that game. Tears galore in a few!

 

[Claymore]

Another battle system I've heard suggested for basis/inspiration for the FFVIII remake is from Lost Odyssey (which came out at the end of 2007, it's turn-based without any ATB).

Any thoughts on this type of system?

I've played and owed the game, but had to look up footage to refresh my memory ... so that can't be good, lol. I'll personally pass on that system.

 

[clowd]

OK, I figured out a way I'd like to see the world map done.

Split it into 'regions'. Each region is highly detailed with seamless towns and battles. Crossing from one region to another requires a loading screen.

Some areas cannot be directly accessed in a region. These places can be considered 'sub' regions. For example, after passing the Midgar Zolom, you'll see a cave entrance. Once entered there is a loading screen and you are transported to the Mythril Mines. At the other end of the Mythril mines is a cave exit that leads you to the region that has Fort Condor and Junon. So while you have these large 'regions' there can be entrances in them to more areas which are not restricted by geographical location or size.

Another example would be the Nibelheim Mountains. They won't have their own region, but that wont stop them from being expansive. Just like the original game, you enter in the Nibelheim region and come out in the Rocket Town region.

Highwind travel can be done by having it fly high in the sky over a map in the same style as the original game. But since you're so high you dont really notice the inferior graphics. If you settle over the chocobo farm and request to land, there will be a loading screen and you'll be dropped off at the exact location in the Chocobo Farm / Midgar region. Of course you can call the highwind to pick you up at anytime, as long as your not in a 'sub' region. This way you can experience the freedom, speed, and control the Highwind from the original game offered.

 

[Theozilla]

OK, I figured out a way I'd like to see the world map done.

Split it into 'regions'. Each region is highly detailed with seamless towns and battles. Crossing from one region to another requires a loading screen.

Some areas cannot be directly accessed in a region. These places can be considered 'sub' regions. For example, after passing the Midgar Zolom, you'll see a cave entrance. Once entered there is a loading screen and you are transported to the Mythril Mines. At the other end of the Mythril mines is a cave exit that leads you to the region that has Fort Condor and Junon. So while you have these large 'regions' there can be entrances in them to more areas which are not restricted by geographical location or size.

Another example would be the Nibelheim Mountains. They won't have their own region, but that wont stop them from being expansive. Just like the original game, you enter in the Nibelheim region and come out in the Rocket Town region.

Yeah, a to-scale open world map could only work with sectioned regions/areas, otherwise it would either require too much development time/work and/or processing power to try to do a non-sectioned open world of a entire planet or have an open world planet that is obviously too small to be an actual planet.

You don't think that towns/cities (in addition to Midgar) need to be separated by their own loading/transition screen though? That wouldn't take to much processing power? Also would the traversable parts of the ocean have their own ocean specific regions or would they just be chopped up into the different land regions?

Highwind travel can be done by having it fly high in the sky over a map in the same style as the original game. But since you're so high you dont really notice the inferior graphics. If you settle over the chocobo farm and request to land, there will be a loading screen and you'll be dropped off at the exact location in the Chocobo Farm / Midgar region. Of course you can call the highwind to pick you up at anytime, as long as your not in a 'sub' region. This way you can experience the freedom, speed, and control the Highwind from the original game offered.

For the airship-travel designated world map would you prefer it to still be torus/donut shaped (where traveling off the North side of the map has you pop out on the South end of the map) like in the original game or would you like them to actually try to make it spherical in shape?

 

[clowd]

Yeah, a to-scale open world map could only work with sectioned regions/areas, otherwise it would either require too much development time/work and/ or processing power to try to do a non-sectioned open world of a entire planet or have open word planet that is obviously too small to be an actual planet.

Yeah, when you're dealing with an entire planet there has to be some sort of scaling.

In terms of scale once you leave Midgar I'd like Kalm to be just visible in the horizon. Just like this picture

You don't think that towns/cities (in addition to Midgar) need to be separated by their own loading/transition screen though? That wouldn't take to much processing power?

You are right, the bigger cities like Junon, Midgar etc would need to have their own loading/transition screen. Now smaller locations like the Chocobo farm should require no extra loading. In the Final Fantasy XV demo theres a gas station with a dozen people, a few cars and a highly detailed building with full interior in the middle of a gigantic region and none of it required extra loading/transition.

Also would the traversable parts of the ocean have their own ocean specific regions or would they just be chopped up into the different land regions?

In terms of traveling the shallow ocean in the Tiny Bronco, the edges of each region can be modeled a certain distance out into the ocean to allow passage around them.

As for the Highwind and the oceans, you can fly above them but you can only be dropped off where there is land.

For the airship-travel designated world map would you prefer it to still be torus/donut shaped (where traveling off the North side of the map has you pop out on the South end of the map) like in the original game or would you like them to actually try to make it spherical in shape?

They should go ahead and make it spherical. But I believe FFVIII had both map styles?

 

[Theozilla]

They should go ahead and make it spherical. But I believe FFVIII had both map styles?

Actually even FFVIII was still torus-shaped in terms of its gameplay travel-wise (as well as FFIX). This person from gamefaqs explains how it works:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/43118152

Actually they're not sphereical. If you go north on a spherical world you would end up coming South after reaching the pole and come back down the map rather than wrapping around and coming up the bottom.

The "spherical" world map display that FF8 has wouldn't actually be accurate to the game's actual flat map is simply a distorted view of your current location on the flat map (with the edges shifted to keep your location centered).

There is no way to portray a round surface as a 2D plane where the top and bottom edges were originally connected as well as the left and right edges. Go ahead and try, take a piece of paper make it so that two opposite edges are connected, it will be a cylinder. Now try to make the other set of opposite edges connect, it won't form any type of regular enclosed shape. The closest thing would be a donut shape as the TC suggested, but that would create a hexagonal map.

Technically though, the world maps such as those used in FF7 and FF8 are just plain ordinary rectangles. They simply include code that makes it so that when you go too far in one direction your position is changed to put you on the opposite side of the map. And the terrain around you is drawn by simply cutting the left/right/top/bottom of the map off and attaching it to the opposite side before rendering the scene (similar to what 8 does to create its faux-spherical display).

This is what an actual 3D representation of the map-travel mechanics would look like for Final Fantasy I-IX (the example map is from Chrono Trigger)

 

[ForceStealer]

Well...

That was fascinating.

 

[Starling]

Well...

That was fascinating.

 

[Channy]

I came into this thread wanting to debate battle systems and map ideas but I can't stop staring at that gif...

 

[Flare]

That donut map....

...So that's how it works.....


I'm lovin' it.