Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[ForceStealer]

Ah, Before Crisis. Endless source of "huh?"s

Quite simply, Genesis and Angeal are dead. They have no functional presence or purpose in VII's plot. These characters are solely connected to Zack's development and story in Crisis Core. Their influence is present, memorable and important to the universe of FFVII but they are not present or relevant to VII's own plot at all. Zack had a unique story and these characters existed in that story. I don't think anything personal or based on their character will present themselves in the Remake.

But this, exactly. I've been saying from the beginning when you had people falling on their fainting couches about how Genesis was gonna muck up the remake OR that the Compilation was going to be wiped from the record.
No, both of those things can very likely be wrong. He can both be completely absent, AND still be "canon," because THE ENTIRE POINT was that he was absent for events of the original game.

 

[oty]

I mean, he's probably canon, but he's the long, forgotten kind of canon. It's like that technical detail, that, well, is technically right buuut nobody really brings up, or is just kind of referenced in the side

 

[Pizzachu]

Right, Angeal is dead and Genesis is away from the main events of the game. I don't want anything overt, but I wouldn't mind finding, like what Lic said, an old SOLDIER recruitment poster or something like that. ^^

But if there ever is a Remake of Crisis Core (probably won't happen, but it's still fun to imagine), I hope Genesis and Angeal have more characterization added to them. I like them, but like others said, they are fairly flat characters.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's just fanon though isn't it. That doesn't happen in the actual game. Zirconiade is fought in some weird ass final dungeon construct above Midgar. BC never references any damage that was done to the city as a result of Zirconiade iirc.

In chapter 22, Fuhito and AVALANCHE were in the Sector 6 slums and Wall Market. But they then escaped and actually you're right.... It's indeterminate where they actually ended up in Midgar for the final battle.

They started in Sector 6's slums and the area but. For whatever reason BC isn't exact on where the chase ends. Oh well

 

[Jairus]

But how canon is BC, anyway? Its release was extremely limited, on a very limited and no longer available platform, and never went outside Japan. I don't know that they would include much from a title most people playing the game likely have no idea ever even existed, let alone played.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Limited release means nothing. If the writers are referencing it and using it, it's canon.

Now, BC does contradict several subsequent Compilation titles that depict narrative points in BC differently. So those plot elements should be ignored.

But Before Crisis exists and even though it's Japan exclusive, it's relevant. Hell, that's what explained how Red XIII doggy-styled his puppies in the ending of FFVII.

 

[Jairus]

Well, they could always change that explanation of Red's cubs with the remake and ignore BC's version (as it didn't exist when FFVII first came out), since as you said they ignored or should ignore other parts of it. So it seems like it's more they're using parts of the Comp and reworking what they're using rather than including all of it wholesale unaltered.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They're not going to though. It's done. They wrote it. They're using it.

This isn't DC or Warner Bros rebooting and redoing everything that happened every X amount of years because they're hoping to re-do things over and over again. These are the same people who wrote these stories coming back and remaking the story set in the same established universe. They're not interested in erasing their work. They did it. They'll probably hint or reference Before Crisis's Dinne character. But they're not gonna change the fundamental plot that was outlined there.

 

[Jairus]

See, this is the tone I'm talking about. Like you don't allow that you could be wrong about anything. The finality in the way you write stuff like that just rubs me the wrong way, that's what I meant before about coming across as a know-it-all. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that's how it feels. When you write that way, it makes it seem like anyone who questions what you say is foolish and ignorant. I know that's not how you're trying to make anyone feel, but that tone of absolute knowing does that by its very nature. You can't say you know for sure what only the SE really knows.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

BC has been referenced a lot over the years in other stuff. Cissnei in CC originated in BC. Veld explicitly appears in Episode:Shin-Ra of "On the Way to A Smile," as do at least a few of the unnamed BC Turks. BC's events were also included in the Compilation summary from "Advent Children Complete" (in Japan and elsewhere in the world).

For that matter, it still stands to reason more people are familiar with BC than they are with "The Kids Are Alright," and

Spoiler

we already know from leaks that's going to get some acknowledgement in the remake.

 

[Makoeyes987]

See, this is the tone I'm talking about. Like you don't allow that you could be wrong about anything.

I'm sorry, I speak with confidence. The reason I type in the manner where I don't believe I could be wrong.. Is simply because don't believe I am. I mean. That's it.

And it's nothing against you. So I don't see why you'd take it personally. Believe me, it's not an insult to you at all. However, the reason why I'm so certain is for the reasons I illustrated.

The finality in the way you write stuff like that just rubs me the wrong way, that's what I meant before about coming across as a know-it-all. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that's how it feels. When you write that way, it makes it seem like anyone who questions what you say is foolish and ignorant. I know that's not how you're trying to make anyone feel, but that tone of absolute knowing does that by its very nature. You can't say you know for sure what only the SE really knows.

Trust me, if you notice, there are times I am uncertain. But when I'm certain, I tend to lean into it.

It has nothing to do with me insulting your or anything. However, if I'm confident, I'm confident. I'm sorry you're taking it that way, but I assure you it's not anything insulting at all.

 

[Jairus]

I understand, but that very confidence comes off as a bit arrogant, that's all. Not saying you are, that's just how it feels, and I'm not sure that's how you want to be seen. So maybe try backing off a little and not lean into it so much even when you don't think you're wrong. Because nobody knows everything. And that means the possibility to be wrong always exists.

And SE may include unexpected things in the remake specifically to throw off people like you and other so-called FF7 experts who seem to think they know how the whole thing is going to go. Might want to keep that in mind.

 

[jazzflower92]

With Genesis and Angeal, I think they should just revamp their characters from the way up.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, in my opinion, I don't think they'll do that because they've been very clear and emphatic that they want to continue to use what they've written already.

I don't doubt they'll throw in new stuff, of course. But, they aren't gonna suddenly decide, "Before Crisis? Nah, fuhgettaboutit!"

I wouldn't say I'm an expert. But, I was right about the Compilation inclusion. I didn't believe they were gonna ignore or negate their own writing. I predicted that it was some sort of misunderstanding and was right. But no, I'm certainly no expert. And I can't predict the future.

But with the knowledge of what's been done, stated, and the experience of seeing how these writers worked before, I feel certain in saying they're not gonna erase Before Crisis. They'll continue to acknowledge it like they always do.

 

[jazzflower92]

Well, in my opinion, I don't think they'll do that because they've been very clear and emphatic that they want to continue to use what they've written already.

I don't doubt they'll throw in new stuff, of course. But, they aren't gonna suddenly decide, "Before Crisis? Nah, fuhgettaboutit!"

I wouldn't say I'm an expert. But, I was right about the Compilation inclusion. I didn't believe they were gonna ignore or negate their own writing. I predicted that it was some sort of misunderstanding and was right. But no, I'm certainly no expert. And I can't predict the future.

But with the knowledge of what's been done, stated, and the experience of seeing how these writers worked before, I feel certain in saying they're not gonna erase Before Crisis. They'll continue to acknowledge it like they always do.

I do think this come off as a contradiction to earlier interviews where they said it wouldn't include Compilation elements and would be it's own thing.

 

[Jairus]

Fair enough. Since you said some of BC contradicts other stuff, though, it may only be partially used, like much of the rest of the Compilation material. Use what works and is salvageable and ignore what isn't and what contradicts. I guess I just wonder why they would put so much emphasis on BC, something that only a small proportion of the playerbase has even heard of, let alone seen or played.

 

[Theozilla]

The earlier French Nomura interview that people referenced so much was very misunderstood. The original context of the question was in reference to a KH Remix style Compilation port release. Nomura was talking about coherency in that it wouldn’t be beholden to the Compilation (in the same way the Compilation isn’t even beholden to itself or the OG), not that Compilation wasn’t canon anymore and/or the Remake wouldn’t build upon it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well of course, they simply can't use everything. Not everything in the Compilation is relevant, capable or warranted in the actual FFVII story.

They'll simply use what's relevant and actually fitting for the narrative and go from there.

And the simple reason the writers continue to use Before Crisis, is because it's their work. They wrote it. It's story serves as foundation for the lore and history of FFVII's world, and they see no reason not to use it. Yes, no one outside of Japan has played it or seen it's story beyond the fan-translations posted online and youtube.

However, those in Japan from 2004 to 2018 did play it. And given the fact that this is their story, and their writing, human nature dictates they would hold some level of attachment and pride in their work. Which they've stated they do carry. So, that's just the reality of it. They like it, they're proud of it, and it's the lore of FFVII.

 

[Tetsujin]

I just imagine Square digging their heels in and yelling "Dirge of Cerberus was COOL, dangit!"

and I just wanna gently touch them by the shoulders and be like

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Still better than the other Compilation games. =P

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Well, despite being a rather hard game to get your hands on now (if not impossible outside that PC download from a while ago), the overall existence of BC isn't THAT obscured, though. This especially in Japan where a plethora of reading material can be taken in to observe it as part of the canon of FFVII. In any case, I've never seen any problem (if anything, being an advocate for) in integrating material from the Compilation to improve the storytelling in the Remake. It would seem very...counteractive to what they've spent years developing for the overall series to do that.

 

[cold_spirit]

I just imagine Square digging their heels in and yelling "Dirge of Cerberus was COOL, dangit!"

Not a fan, eh? That's fine, that just means there'll be more Dirge for the rest of us.

Spoiler: Opinion

Dirge isn't even my favorite Compilation title. However, compared to CC's gameplay, its combat is more varied and the level design is more interesting. Dirge also offers the Compilation's best lore addition through Omega Weapon and its possible connection to Jenova.

 

[Makoeyes987]

... How the heck is geriatric Vincent Valentine (unless it's cutscene magic) better gameplay than CC...?!

Dirge of Cerberus is what would happen if a mad scientist took Devil May Cry, drained all of its vital fluids, absorbed its discorporated soul and grafted a bare bones 3rd person shooter mechanic onto its corpse like some Frankenstein-weapon-monster.

Then commanded the undead abomination to dance for a children's party.

Crisis Core had far more in-depth action RPG gameplay with its materia fusion system, accessories, armor, items and hundreds of combinations of various types of materia. Not to mention dozens of unique spells, commands and summons. And of course there's the Digital Mind Wave. A gameplay element that was integrated into the story's end so well, it was the most creative and emotional fusion of gameplay mechanics and story I've ever seen. It did more as a PSP game than Dirge of Cerberus ever tried to do.. As a PS2 game.

Dirge of Cerberus which gave us Fire, Lightning and Blizzard materia... That's it. Vincent only had 4 guns. For customization, you just simply Lego pieced 5 parts together for the gun you wanted. Vincent only had 3 accessories in the entire game. You either used exp points to level up or get gil magically to buy more parts and items from Jukeboxes, or the end of each chapter on a menu scree . These were the most phoned in game mechanics I've ever seen in a Square-Enix spin off title.

Vincent had only one limit break, which was triggered by an item. One of the most iconic aspects of his play style and character... Was completely and inexplicably shelved/ignored. Except in the final battle of the game for some stupid fucking reason. Then you could use Chaos to face roll the boss because the game wasn't easy enough. Unless you played hard mode.

And at least Crisis Core tried to include as many of the unique and flavorful enemies of the OG it could.

Aside from Deepground soldiers and their numerous permutations, Dirge of Cerberus gave us just 8 monsters. Guard Hounds, Crimson Hounds, Bizarre Bugs, Epilonis, Sahagins, Dual Horns, Gargoyles and Cactuars... Who only existed to be shot. Because if Cactuars fought back, they'd destroy you through sheer speed since you're so sluggish you'd think Vincent just woke up from his coffin sleep of 30 years.

The creators phoned this game in. Dirge didn't even have an optional superboss. At least Crisis Core felt like a labor of love trying to capture some spirit of the OG.

And don't get me wrong, I don't hate Dirge of Cerberus. I enjoyed some of it unironically. I love Deepground. I love the Tsviets. I love Vincent's overdramatic theatrics in cutscenes as he ends his boss fights. The storyline cgi cutscenes were awesome as hell along with the soundtrack. I even accepted and was amused by the final villain reveal.

...But the game is mediocre as hell. I've never been more painfully aware of the discordance between storyline cutscenes and gameplay until playing that game.

So I can't understand how anyone can say Dirge of Cerberus as a game was better than Crisis Core. When CC literally told a longer, fleshed out story. Created a deeper, more enriching game with mechanics carrying depth and challenge. And actually attempted to make the game hold some semblance of Final Fantasy. Dirge felt so rushed and slapped together on the fly in terms of its gameplay that it boggled my mind, even today.

 

[Odysseus]

You guys better be careful, lest you awaken Shademp's rage.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I have a soft spot in my heart for Dirge of Cerberus and was even playing it some the other day on my PS2. It was nostalgic and I enjoyed it's accomplishments. It's fun.

However, Crisis Core is my UIL champion.

....While Dirge of Cerberus won a "Most Black Eyeliner Applied in 30 Seconds" and "Tightest Black Skinny Jeans" award from Hot Topic back in 2006.

So yeah...