Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

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Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Almost everything about Crisis Core's story I'm either actively annoyed by or apathetic to. Dirge might have less game play variety, and it's story may be fucking nonsense, but at least it makes me laugh. Crisis Core is a gray, miserable slog in comparison. I'm not about to say dirge actually has more interesting gameplay, because it doesn't, but at least its over relatively quickly and there's decent variety in the levels. Crisis Core is just "run down empty hallway, fight enemies, run down hall way, repeat." Even if the combat is more fleshed out, that doesn't make it less tedious.
 
I honestly think that what they lacked was good writers.
BC was a farrago of nonsense, but it never really pretended to be anything else, and it gave us a bunch of characters whose existence in the world of FFVII made sense.
Even Avalanche Mark I makes sense, though teenage Rufus being its founder and funder doesn't, really.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Crisis Core is a gray, miserable slog in comparison.

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This is the brightest stage of the game. This is also during daytime. :monster:


...but at least its over relatively quickly and there's decent variety in the levels. Crisis Core is just "run down empty hallway, fight enemies, run down hall way, repeat." Even if the combat is more fleshed out, that doesn't make it less tedious.

Dirge of Cerberus' locations are Kalm, Edge, Shinra Manor, WRO headquarters, Sector 7 Train Graveyard, the Shinra Building and Deepground.

Crisis Core's locations are the Shinra Building, Sector 8, Sector 5, Sector 6 slums, Wutai's Fort Tamblin, Banora, Modeoheim, Junon, Costa del Sol, Nibelheim, Mt Nibel, Gongaga, Shinra Manor, the Chocobo Farm, and the Great Northern Crater... In color.

Now yes it did reuse a lot of assets for missions that were simplistic maps but Crisis Core was a PSP game with limited storage space. They did the best they could. At least they had color.

You don't wanna embrace your dreams...? Don't give up!

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This is the true power of SOLDIER!
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Dirge was the epithome of cheesiness, the writing quality... atrocious.

It could have been good, it was nice to see a bit of VIIs world on the PS2.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
To be fair, cheese can be delicious.

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Remember when Vincent fought a bondage sex slave? :monster:

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Or remember that time Cloud was viciously harassed by a psycho cougar?

Good times :monster:

@Odysseus I forgot when you went outside the WRO. Fair enough. You found the one chapter the sun was free to shine in the game.

And yes Nibelheim was dark. But even that was still colorful comparatively speaking.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Dirge definitely isn't free from the compilation's tendency towards gray, but I feel like you aren't giving it enough credit. The only super gray stages are the wasteland and edge. One of my actual non-ironic points of praise for Dirge is its art direction, specifically that its more colorful than Advent Children and Crisis Core. It isn't a very bright game, mind you, but it isn't so washed out. The deepground portion in particular I always really liked:

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its the only compilation entry that really feels like it has a sense of style, the rest is just kind of bland looking.
 

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
... How the heck is geriatric Vincent Valentine (unless it's cutscene magic) better gameplay than CC...?!

In my recent Crisis Core playthrough on hard mode my sole strategy consisted of running behind the enemy/boss and spamming the basic attack, consequently stun locking them with critical hits. If the enemy/boss didn't have a back then you just do the same to their face. Dodge whenever you feel threatened. Have cure, barrier, and mbarrier. Occasionally the "action" is interrupted by the DMW wherein you have to watch an unskippable animation multiple times a sitting. And don't get me started on the monotonous 300 extra missions and flat level design.

In my recent Dirge of Cerberus playthrough on hard mode I found genuine surprises, especially when navigating Deepground. At least aiming requires a bit of effort. At least the shootouts incorporate the level design. At least Dirge is weird. Furthermore, Dirge was a RPG-shooter before Destiny and The Division where even a thought. You could customize a character in the online mode! It was ahead of its time in a way.
 
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Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
To justify retconning characters out of existence, I think you need a better reason than 'I don't personally like them'.

I don't find Genesis and Angeal two dimensional. And the player Turks in BC don't even have names, but you love em.

Mako, I never played KH, I don't know who Xemnas is.
Crisis Core and the Compilation have merit, the original game also has merit. This should be a remake of the original game. Hojo's death should be his death, Genesis should not be interjected in the story of Sephiroth's fall. These things served the story of the Compilation, the Remake should not let their canon hamper it's ability to tell the story it is suppose to tell.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
In all honesty, I think both set the bar really, really low for the series. I still think that CC is better than Dirge ( hell, I think almost everything is....) but CC isnt really a bright bulb. If anything, it's this horribly designed, barely functioning one, that keeps frickin stop you to yell MODULATING PHASE. And thats without talking about the most loved character in the Compilation.

I think it's also hard to compare a PSP to a PS2 game, and not really about console power. More like their different directions. It doesnt justificative CC's horrible gameplay and structure, but it does provide context.

And I agree with Odysseus. Dirge has his own sense of style. Not that it was executed well, but at least I can try talk about it, because there is something to talk about.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
... How the heck is geriatric Vincent Valentine (unless it's cutscene magic) better gameplay than CC...?!

Dirge of Cerberus is what would happen if a mad scientist took Devil May Cry, drained all of its vital fluids, absorbed its discorporated soul and grafted a bare bones 3rd person shooter mechanic onto its corpse like some Frankenstein-weapon-monster.

Then commanded the undead abomination to dance for a children's party.

Crisis Core had far more in-depth action RPG gameplay with its materia fusion system, accessories, armor, items and hundreds of combinations of various types of materia. Not to mention dozens of unique spells, commands and summons. And of course there's the Digital Mind Wave. A gameplay element that was integrated into the story's end so well, it was the most creative and emotional fusion of gameplay mechanics and story I've ever seen. It did more as a PSP game than Dirge of Cerberus ever tried to do.. As a PS2 game.

Dirge of Cerberus which gave us Fire, Lightning and Blizzard materia... That's it. Vincent only had 4 guns. For customization, you just simply Lego pieced 5 parts together for the gun you wanted. Vincent only had 3 accessories in the entire game. You either used exp points to level up or get gil magically to buy more parts and items from Jukeboxes, or the end of each chapter on a menu scree . These were the most phoned in game mechanics I've ever seen in a Square-Enix spin off title.

Vincent had only one limit break, which was triggered by an item. One of the most iconic aspects of his play style and character... Was completely and inexplicably shelved/ignored. Except in the final battle of the game for some stupid fucking reason. Then you could use Chaos to face roll the boss because the game wasn't easy enough. Unless you played hard mode.

And at least Crisis Core tried to include as many of the unique and flavorful enemies of the OG it could.

Aside from Deepground soldiers and their numerous permutations, Dirge of Cerberus gave us just 8 monsters. Guard Hounds, Crimson Hounds, Bizarre Bugs, Epilonis, Sahagins, Dual Horns, Gargoyles and Cactuars... Who only existed to be shot. Because if Cactuars fought back, they'd destroy you through sheer speed since you're so sluggish you'd think Vincent just woke up from his coffin sleep of 30 years.

The creators phoned this game in. Dirge didn't even have an optional superboss. At least Crisis Core felt like a labor of love trying to capture some spirit of the OG.

And don't get me wrong, I don't hate Dirge of Cerberus. I enjoyed some of it unironically. I love Deepground. I love the Tsviets. I love Vincent's overdramatic theatrics in cutscenes as he ends his boss fights. The storyline cgi cutscenes were awesome as hell along with the soundtrack. I even accepted and was amused by the final villain reveal.

...But the game is mediocre as hell. I've never been more painfully aware of the discordance between storyline cutscenes and gameplay until playing that game.

So I can't understand how anyone can say Dirge of Cerberus as a game was better than Crisis Core. When CC literally told a longer, fleshed out story. Created a deeper, more enriching game with mechanics carrying depth and challenge. And actually attempted to make the game hold some semblance of Final Fantasy. Dirge felt so rushed and slapped together on the fly in terms of its gameplay that it boggled my mind, even today.

That's a lot of extra words to say "You right, Dirge was actually better." :awesome:

Almost everything about Crisis Core's story I'm either actively annoyed by or apathetic to.

Yeah, this will always be the overriding thing for me. BC's gameplay is a chore to watch, so I doubt it was much more fun to play, but overall the story and characters were fairly interesting to me.

If I have to pick between the game whose gameplay looks painful or whose story is painful, I'll probably give the ribbon to the one with the crappier gameplay that at least seems to consistently reward you.

Which is not to say that Dirge's story is without infuriating moments. Any scene with Lucrecia is guaranteed to make you want to lock yourself in a coffin. But for me the problems in Dirge's story are usually more cringey and secondhand embarrassing than "Why?? Why would you do this?? What God would allow this?? Whyyyyy" -- which is how I feel about almost everything in CC. =P
 

MelodicEnigma

Pro Adventurer
Crisis Core and the Compilation have merit, the original game also has merit. This should be a remake of the original game. Hojo's death should be his death, Genesis should not be interjected in the story of Sephiroth's fall. These things served the story of the Compilation, the Remake should not let their canon hamper it's ability to tell the story it is suppose to tell.

I'm not really sure of what expectation is behind the context of "interjection" for Angeal and Genesis' characters somewhere in the full Remake project, but as is with any other plot/character/lore element developed from the Compilation—it has absolute free reign and justification to be included in some form as long as it adds or improves the storytelling/game experience of the Remake. That, as far as I'm concerned, should always be the goal the writers are considering with their materials here. The [most] Compilation materials aren't meant to be such a separate entity or canon from the OG as in practical terms now, their additions have become part of the "essence of the universe" that the OG had set off. I wouldn't agree with some notion of using the Compilation materials in a way where this Remake acts as, like, a Remake for THOSE titles, but I believe in the staff enough, in that aspect, to not dig that hole for themselves.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I'm not really sure of what expectation is behind the context of "interjection" for Angeal and Genesis' characters somewhere in the full Remake project, but as is with any other plot/character/lore element developed from the Compilation—it has absolute free reign and justification to be included in some form as long as it adds or improves the storytelling/game experience of the Remake. That, as far as I'm concerned, should always be the goal the writers are considering with their materials here. The [most] Compilation materials aren't meant to be such a separate entity or canon from the OG as in practical terms now, their additions have become part of the "essence of the universe" that the OG had set off. I wouldn't agree with some notion of using the Compilation materials in a way where this Remake acts as, like, a Remake for THOSE titles, but I believe in the staff enough, in that aspect, to not dig that hole for themselves.

Not sure I take your meaning, Genesis appears in events that the FFVII story covers once and only once. Crisis Core's depiction of him being there either is or is not canon. It's a hole they've already dug for themselves as they did before with Before Crisis and Last Order's depiction of events, which they ultimately decided not to adhere too.
 

Saven

Pro Adventurer
Someone mentioned this on Reddit, but after seeing the flashback scene during the bombing run when Cloud remembers Nibelheim, it makes soooooo much more sense now for Tifa to dress up like a cowgirl when Sephiroth eventually burns it down.
 

MelodicEnigma

Pro Adventurer
Not sure I take your meaning, Genesis appears in events that the FFVII story covers once and only once. Crisis Core's depiction of him being there either is or is not canon. It's a hole they've already dug for themselves as they did before with Before Crisis and Last Order's depiction of events, which they ultimately decided not to adhere too.

I'm....not sure I really understand what your point is. Lol Which is not a jab or anything, but I'm not sure how that has anything to do with Genesis' ability to have a presence somewhere appropriately placed in the Remake project. To be precise to what I think you're getting at, his character influence to the world and/or Sephiroth's story isn't limited in being included here in some form just because this isn't his source story (CC, though Dirge is his first "appearance") being remade. This is why I mention the likes of what context the expectation is coming from, which mainly resolves on the "how" Compilation materials are integrated. We may be talking about different things, but the above is where I'm mainly coming from.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Without getting into whether Dirge or CC was worse, this idea that Dirge is more colorful than Crisis Core is....making my head spin. Crisis Core is the only compilation title that even approached FF7's color palette.

And I don't actually mind ACC's and DC's color palettes. They both effectively fit the mood and atmosphere of those pieces. But...what?
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
I actually enjoyed CC as a game (just not as a story) and didn’t mind its art style (I didn’t find it too dismal). AC’s grey palate makes sense and establishes Edge as not a happy place. But grey palates were definitely heavily overused during this time period.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I'm starting to think "colorful" may have been the wrong word to use. Crisis Core on the whole is a brighter game than Dirge for sure. I think its just that I find the pallet and use of color to be pretty bland. There aren't too many locations that stick out in my memory as being especially visually striking, whereas I can think of plenty from dirge. The slums look pretty bleak and monotone, Nibelheim is gray, Banora is just bland despite having a relatively bright pallet. I don't really know how to defend my position better than this, I just remember Crisis Core looking really boring.
 

Erotic Materia

[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
All of this discussion is only making me feel less guilty for never having played either of the two games. Technically I started CC, but only played the first like 3 hours. Regardless, it sounds like I wasn't missing out on much.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
One of my actual non-ironic points of praise for Dirge is its art direction, specifically that its more colorful than Advent Children and Crisis Core. It isn't a very bright game, mind you, but it isn't so washed out.

Now, I agree with you 100% in reference to DC's unique art direction, style and design for it's characters. One of the things I enjoyed were the stylized appearances of their main characters along with the detail of some it's locations. Kalm's traditional old European/Irish town design was a cool architectural style to give the place along with it's villagers. The WRO was well done, too. And you later mentioned Deepground itself, which I completely agree with. I found it to be the most fascinating, mysterious and well done location of the game. I wish it were a PS3 game so it could be properly detailed, explored and investigated as they really did a great job in the design of that location. When DC did it's own unique art and design, they did it well.

...However, I simply do not see what you're saying in it being more colorful than Crisis Core. Crisis Core's visuals are more vibrant and varied in color palette. I had to turn my TVs brightness up to 100 to see things properly :monster: But I will say that Dirge looks good and has a great unique art style (especially for a PS2 game for it's era), even though it's colors are very subdued. Unless you're Deepground. In which case you shine brightly like a neon star.

I think sorta get what you're saying in terms of Crisis Core's style not being as interesting to you, too. Crisis Core stayed really close to FFVII's style and really didn't try too hard to chart out a new direction for itself. In terms of what Dirge brought to the table in unique art design and appearance, I kinda agree. But at that the same time, I did like Crisis Core's look and return to VII's appearance in PSP graphics.

In my recent Crisis Core playthrough on hard mode my sole strategy consisted of running behind the enemy/boss and spamming the basic attack, consequently stun locking them with critical hits. If the enemy/boss didn't have a back then you just do the same to their face. Dodge whenever you feel threatened. Have cure, barrier, and mbarrier. Occasionally the "action" is interrupted by the DMW wherein you have to watch an unskippable animation multiple times a sitting. And don't get me started on the monotonous 300 extra missions and flat level design.

....What? No way. First off, stun locking only works on basic low to mid level enemies, which requires you to actively critical hit them repeatedly. Unless you have one of the high level accessories that allow a critical hit rate of 100% you can't naturally just stunlock enemies to death like that. And most high level enemies and bosses have a passive auto-endure that allows them to not recoil or get stunlocked from critical hits. Raising your stats and enhancing passives via items and materia is one of the most unique and creative ways to manipulate the RPG attributes for Zack. It allows you to low-level run mission levels far beyond your inherent level. It's similar to how Critical Mode in KH challenges you to master the combat beyond just the RPG level mechanics and it's an interesting challenge. You're selling Crisis Core waaaay too short. And you can totally skip DMW and summon sequences just by pressing the action button.

Again, I'll admit the Extra Missions get repetitive in their design due to the fact this is a PSP title with limited storage space, but at least Crisis Core tried to give each of the missions their own unique story reason and lore. That was a nice touch to give it some semblance of identity.

In my recent Dirge of Cerberus playthrough on hard mode I found genuine surprises, especially when navigating Deepground. At least aiming requires a bit of effort. At least the shootouts incorporate the level design. At least Dirge is weird. Furthermore, Dirge was a RPG-shooter before Destiny and The Division where even a thought. You could customize a character in the online mode! It was ahead of its time in a way.

Deepground is the best looking and most uniquely designed level in the entire game so I agree with it being a proper stage that incorporated the terrain for well done gameplay. But the rest of the game simply isn't like that. And given your setting of the bar so low here, I can easily flip that argument to Crisis Core's favor. :monster: Crisis Core at least gave Zack more than 1 limit break, 3 magic spells, a handful of accessories and weapons, and actual summons. There's depth and RPG mechanics to work with. I didn't expect Resident Evil 4, Devil May Cry, or Bloodrayne but the dearth of depth was disappointing. Now, granted I agree about it's multiplayer mode being ahead of it's time, and being unique and cool for it's time. That would have served it's longevity and I think there were unique mechanics that were included there as well. It is a shame we never got it.

That's a lot of extra words to say "You right, Dirge was actually better." :awesome:

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:monster:

Technically I started CC, but only played the first like 3 hours. Regardless, it sounds like I wasn't missing out on much.

Wrong.

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You missed this.

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And this. :monster:
 
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oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
In all honesty, just watch those "X full movie All cutscenes" for both. Even then, I dont think you will have a very pleasant experience.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Crisis Core is a decent RPG gameplay wise. Just don't play hard mode (it basically just inflates HP totals). And don't do the side missions, yes they're repetitive, but worse is that you will rapidly become grossly overlevelled for the story bosses, robbing them of any drama.

And I enjoyed the arcade-y nature of Dirge's gameplay. And I had fun with the gun customization. But I won't pretend it's good.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Yeah like I said, colorful was the wrong word to use. I've scoured through some screen shots to refresh my memory, and its more vibrant that I remembered. Still fairly bland looking, but not quite as dull as I remembered it being. I think the limitations of the PSP didn't allow them to create an interesting atmosphere the way dirge could. I mentioned this somewhere else, but I really wish CC was on the PS3 instead. However,

I did like Crisis Core's look and return to VII's appearance in PSP graphics.

I can't agree with that. VII had a much more distinct artstyle in its prerendered backgrounds than Crisis Core could replicate on the PSP. Everything returning from the original takes a level up in blandness. I'm really starting to think Crisis Core's biggest issue was the platform it was released on. I think Square could improve it tremendously if they were to remake it, too.

Boy this thread got off topic. Sorry!
 
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