Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Deleted member 546]

he rides on the back of a huge stuffed Mog he magically brought to life. Megaphone in hand, he's always shouting orders and creating dopey attacks

Cait Sith isn't animatronic, but the Mog is. Cait is a magical being so he could just poof away and sacrifice the Mog in the temple of the ancients and also utilise materia. Unless all this time I've gotten this wrong and you lot are gonna ruin my head-canons

Sorry, but no. Cait is a robot. The whole Toysaurus thing is just a cover story.

You're gonna need to start citing sources here rather than just disagreeing with me. That quote came from the game booklet. I know it's been a long time since I last played it but I don't recall it explicitly saying anywhere that Cait is a robot.

 

[JBedford]

Cait Sith
“You'd just be wastin' your time if you tried.
This body's just a toy anyway.”

“My real body's at Shinra Headquarters in Midgar.
I'm controlin' this
toy cat from there.”

 

[Claymore]

You're both right. I mean, the game trumps booklet information in terms of canonicity, but yeah. Heck, doesn't an ultimania somewhere throw another spanner in the works by giving Reeve some weird telekinetic and puppet-developing abilities?

Reeves / Cait Sith is one area that I would quite like them to develop more.

Heck, forget what he is ... I'm still having a hard time seeing him in this Remake.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, the lore is fucked where Reeve and Cait Sith are concerned. The cat is explicitly a robot in multiple entries (most obviously in Before Crisis, where the player's Turk has to reassemble it after it gets dismembered), but the matter is needlessly complicated by that magical "Inspire" stupidity.

I think it'd be cool if in the Corel flashback, Barret didn't appear as buff (obviously still huge, but not jacked as much), to imply the transformation once he started going against Shinra.

But he and Dyne are so jacked in the first place because they were miners.

And isn't the gun arm thing already transformation enough? I know it seems a mundane detail for us after 20 years, but I expect the remake to really focus on this in some way.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

The thing about considering Cait Sith as merely a robot, and not a semi-separate, 'magical' being is that (and I know this is one of the things that got lost in translation, so bear with me here) Cait Sith is demonstrated to an extent to have his own separate personality, unique from Reeve's. I know in the original Japanese, it was supposed to be something along the lines of Cait Sith speaking in a rural, sort-of 'chaotic' loose dialect whereas Reeve speaks and behaves like the executive he is. On top of this, you ALSO have the fact that immediately after Cait Sith's little sacrifice speech, where he mentions that even if another Cait Sith comes along it won't actually be the same as him, you have Cait Sith #2 appearing and speaking in a broad, southern (as in America) accent. Again, this shift couldn't have been what was intended in the original Japanese, but the two Cait Siths speaking differently SEEMS to have been. Now, you might just wager that Reeve is a highly devoted method actor who takes time to craft the personalities and speech patterns of his various...robots, and who knows, but presumably when the Shinra executives had him arrested, they searched him for remote controls for cats? Then again, they're not known to be the most careful.

AKA, Cait Sith is a clusterfuck. And I love it.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well, Reeve DOES put that accent on, as Scarlet calls him on it after the President's office is destroyed and he slips up, "What is it Reeve? You're speaking strangely."

But I agree that Cait Sith can also exist on his own, before the Inspire nonsense, I just always figured it was a robot with AI, but Reeve could directly take control when he saw fit to do so.

 

[ChipNoir]

I don't think it's hard to believe that cait sith has an independent thought process. When you think about it logically how exactly would reeve be able to control him all the time while still working within Shinra?
I always thought it more plausible that it ran with a sort of AI that reeve was the architect of but when he wasn't around it was free to make independent decisions.

If I were to push for anything in this game to be delved deeper into, the concept of AI existing side-by-side with a culture that has an actual confirmed afterlife that people are aware of. That offers a lot of insight to a character like Cait Sith, especially if he does have an independent AI, and if said AI has to process the idea that Cait Sith 1.0 was his own independent AI as well.

How do you react if you have access to the same memories, but you didn't experience them yourself? Do you worry more about your own future, knowing that you won't live on the way a living entity will in the Lifestream? Do you have any stakes in the world, when you have no participation in it's cycle of life?

 

[Deleted member 546]

That's too deep for a Sunday night.

I'm just gonna throw out here that of all the Compilation, I've played VII, watched Advent Children and played a bit of Dirge so anything beyond that I have to plead ignorance of.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think it's hard to believe that cait sith has an independent thought process. When you think about it logically how exactly would reeve be able to control him all the time while still working within Shinra?
I always thought it more plausible that it ran with a sort of AI that reeve was the architect of but when he wasn't around it was free to make independent decisions.

If I were to push for anything in this game to be delved deeper into, the concept of AI existing side-by-side with a culture that has an actual confirmed afterlife that people are aware of. That offers a lot of insight to a character like Cait Sith, especially if he does have an independent AI, and if said AI has to process the idea that Cait Sith 1.0 was his own independent AI as well.

How do you react if you have access to the same memories, but you didn't experience them yourself? Do you worry more about your own future, knowing that you won't live on the way a living entity will in the Lifestream? Do you have any stakes in the world, when you have no participation in it's cycle of life?

Perhaps as worthy of consideration: would the possibility exist for you to become part of that cycle since memories=life, they can be copied/transferred as data, and that world's equivalent of the Internet can interface with the Lifestream via SND?

 

[Deleted member 546]

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Presumably Cait Sith is mako-powered in some way?

 

[Shademp]

SND

I just now realized this is another Compilation reference I'd like to see in the remake.

It's already been long visualized in my head that the player might find obscure references by hacking into Scarlet's and/or Heidegger's computer(s). The player might then find references to Deepground, Tsviets, Synaptic Net Dives etc either as the names to folders that the player can't open, or as revealed keywords in encrypted documents that the player (or some tech-savvy NPC) have only managed to partially decrypt.

I picture these optional references being available either during the infiltration of Shinra HQ, the "disc 2" revisit to Midgar or after the fall of Shinra (or all of these aforementioned instances).

 

[Teioh]

I love the idea of optional references which observant players can kind of sniff out. I posted on tumblr last year about maybe being able to discover President Shinra's passcode as a nod to Episode Shinra (and as a Rufus Shinra fan, well I'd be delighted ), just little random details that fans and players of the compilation can find and squeal nod sagely at. I'm totally relying on TLS to hunt them all down if they do exist

 

[ChipNoir]

I suppose the opportunity is there. You'd have access to President ShinRa's desk...

 

[Cat Rage Room]

While the remake shoehorning in the Compilation in the main game would be a fucking pain in the ass, it would be irresponsible for them as writers and forming a narrative to just forget it exists entirely. I hate that shit; if you write something in a lore, follow through with it (and make it better) unless you consciously write it out. I'm fine with optional references in a larger world.

 

[ChipNoir]

While the remake shoehorning in the Compilation in the main game would be a fucking pain in the ass, it would be irresponsible for them as writers and forming a narrative to just forget it exists entirely. I hate that shit; if you write something in a lore, follow through with it (and make it better) unless you consciously write it out. I'm fine with optional references in a larger world.

They have a loophole through Untrustworthy Narrator. For a large majority of the game, we look at the events through Cloud's eyes. Aside from cryptic existential break downs that have no context till Disc 2, we trust Cloud's knowledge to be true.

So until the we get to the Mideel arc, any and all compilation nods could be buried away along with the truth in Cloud's memories. We may not get any references till part III, at which point they would have played it safe by hooking in even the most die-hard anti-compilation people. It might piss them off when Golden Hilt, ShinRa Files, and Genesis Cameos come flying in part three and beyond, but at that point they'd be locked in, or at least have paid for 2/3rds of the franchise. Everything except for Cloud and Tifa being attacked by Genesis Clones and the Gold Hilt has been more or less carefully written to not conflict with the canon by killing off characters, sending them into hiding, or that ShinRa has a strangle hold on all information.

It'd be devious, but I'm not entirely sure Square would realize this opportunity is there. But they 'could' go this route, and build a LOT of material for the final part as both padding, and a reward for Compilation loyalists that would eagerly seek this material out.

 

[Clement Rage]

References have to be used very very sparingly IMO, it became a big problem for BC that it felt the need to reference everything.

Re Deepground, as someone that most likely loves Dirge more than most of you, I think it's better off left alone. Undermines the super secret nature of it to be able to say 'Oh, yeah, we stumbled across that completely by accident before, we just never bothered to bring it up.'

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Undermines the super secret nature of it

As opposed to the dozens of other super secrets that the party/player finds out during FFVII?

Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. When I was a kid I was sold on the idea of secrets being so secret that nobody ever finds out but I think when I joined the Navy the concept fell apart as preposterous when you start seeing shit that's supposed to be SUPER SECRET accidentally divulged in emails, voicemail messages, slips of paper that people forget in the mess hall, divulged to their booty calls, etc etc.

I remember when the Deus Ex games came around. A lot of the games involve sneaking around and having to find passwords to computers, electronic locks, PIN numbers etc etc, and a lot of the solutions to said passports (if the player doesn't feel like hacking them) are found in game on notepads, emails, scribbled down on scraps of paper etc etc. A few players pointed out "Isn't that unrealistic that passwords to super secret shit are just found by the player by soda machines and shit" and the developers (and a few players) responded that no, people really do that.

Let me be another one to tell you; people really do that shit.

There's a lot of state secrets that a lot of people will never know, but almost nothing is that secret, especially if you're already in the position to find out secrets, (like naval personnel like myself dicking around), or the FFVII party.

 

[Roger]

It's established that Vincent and Reeve specifically don't know about don't know about Deepground specifically. Plenty of people in the FFVII world might, but the FFVII do not. It's different with Genesis, nothing established during or after FFVII neccesitates that Cloud or anyone else can't know about him (and plenty of reason to be believe that he does).

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It's established that Vincent and Reeve specifically don't know about don't know about Deepground specifically. Plenty of people in the FFVII world might, but the FFVII do not.

huh what???

Respectfully, I don't understand that sentence.

If what you're trying to say is that Vincent's and Reeve's ignorance of Deepground implies that the party of FFVII by extension also couldn't know about it, that doesn't mean that they couldn't include a reference.

The audience/player knows (or could know) about Deepground, and they could easily throw in a reference to Deepground that the party couldn't decipher but the player could.

References don't have to be as heavy handed as "HEY GUYS LOOK SOMETHING CALLED 'DEEPGROUND'S' A THING WE HAVEN'T HEARD ABOUT YET HUH HOW ABOUT THAT CLOUD ANYWAY TIME TO STOP SEPHIROTH"

 

[Tashasaurous]

It's established that Vincent and Reeve specifically don't know about Deepground specifically. Plenty of people in the FFVII world might, but the FFVII do not.

huh what???

Respectfully, I don't understand that sentence.

If what you're trying to say is that Vincent's and Reeve's ignorance of Deepground implies that the party of FFVII by extension also couldn't know about it, that doesn't mean that they couldn't include a reference.

The audience/player knows (or could know) about Deepground, and they could easily throw in a reference to Deepground that the party couldn't decipher but the player could.

References don't have to be as heavy handed as "HEY GUYS LOOK SOMETHING CALLED 'DEEPGROUND'S' A THING WE HAVEN'T HEARD ABOUT YET HUH HOW ABOUT THAT CLOUD ANYWAY TIME TO STOP SEPHIROTH"

I get what you mean, but I think what Minato is trying to say is neither of them knew about Deepground until Dirge of Cerberus is basically because the only people who truly know about all of that(and quite possibly Veld and some of the Turks) are the President, Scarlet, Heidegger and Hojo and they're pretty good in keeping dark secrets.

Heck, even Rufus probably didn't know any of that. Unless Cloud comes up with a single report in the ShinRa Manor briefly indicating Deepground and he'd be like, "Huh...I don't remember this. Probably another one of Hojo's secrets." or something like that, I doubt Deepground would be fully referenced in the remake.

The only thing I can think of closely related to Dirge of Cerberus is how Vincent would look when he transforms into Chaos. But just because players would know, doesn't mean the characters of both the original game and the remake would know, because the year is different.

We go back and forth through time in different perspectives with the characters also as viewers. FFVII world and the Compilation world are completely different compared to reality.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I get what you mean, but I think what Cat Rage Room is trying to say

i am cat rage room

Unless Cloud comes up with a single report in the ShinRa Manor briefly indicating Deepground and he'd be like, "Huh...I don't remember this. Probably another one of Hojo's secrets."

That's pretty much what I'm talking about and that's all that would be necessary.

What was the last good game with good writing you guys played? Ya'll realize that clever references aren't heavy handed "HEY LOOK GUYS THIS IS DEEPGROUND FROM THAT OTHER GAME WITH DEEPGROUND ENJOY THE REFERENCE GUYS *WINK WINK* 4 THE FANZ" affairs, right?

But just because players would know, doesn't mean the characters of both the original game and the remake would know, because the year is different.

The characters don't have to know. References are for the sake of the audience, not the player characters.

 

[Roger]

It's established that Vincent and Reeve specifically don't know about don't know about Deepground specifically. Plenty of people in the FFVII world might, but the FFVII do not.

huh what???

Respectfully, I don't understand that sentence.

If what you're trying to say is that Vincent's and Reeve's ignorance of Deepground implies that the party of FFVII by extension also couldn't know about it, that doesn't mean that they couldn't include a reference.

The audience/player knows (or could know) about Deepground, and they could easily throw in a reference to Deepground that the party couldn't decipher but the player could.

References don't have to be as heavy handed as "HEY GUYS LOOK SOMETHING CALLED 'DEEPGROUND'S' A THING WE HAVEN'T HEARD ABOUT YET HUH HOW ABOUT THAT CLOUD ANYWAY TIME TO STOP SEPHIROTH"

Yeah, they can scrawl part of the word "Deepground" on a wall somewhere but as an actual source of content to beef up Part III as Chip suggests it's a nogo.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, they can scrawl part of the word "Deepground" on a wall somewhere but as an actual source of content to beef up Part III as Chip suggests it's a nogo.

That's not the kind of reference I'm talking about either.

All that really would be needed is a vague reference about a shady medical facility where they do mako based enhancements or some shit, or a shady underground facility, or a shady reserve force of SOLDIER that nobody's ever seen, or a shady vague reference to a color coded special forces, or whatever.

Hell they could spill damn near all the beans on the entire operation and it still be canon that the party 'doesn't know about Deepground' because if there's no context to the information the party receives, they won't put pieces together to figure it out (maintaining the canon that the party isn't aware of Deepground's existence) but the players will.

That's a reference.

 

[Tashasaurous]

I get what you mean, but I think what Cat Rage Room is trying to say

i am cat rage room

I already fixed it to Minato.