Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Makoeyes987]

They didn't remove the moogle doll mount to make him look less ridiculous. They did that to save themselves work in animating him for AC. Fur was especially difficult for them to render and animate. The fur and movement for motion capture would be a hell of a pain to do.

And seeing as how Cait isn't even the focus of the movie, they figured they'd combine their efforts and make Cait ride on Red XIII.

As for DC, they excluded the mount because Cait Sith was the "stealth" character. His entire purpose was to be a spy, and add an element of stealth gameplay seeing as how he can fit in tight spaces, move quickly, and be something of a challenging character to play.

There's absolutely no reason at all to think Cait's moogle doll mount is somehow being omitted, especially when in all other depictions of his FFVII look, they do include it. So relax, come on.

 

[Claymore]

Yes that's exactly what I was gonna say. Harder to do that in the main game. Although we still don't know how faithful they're intending to be to the original. They might just ditch the moogle doll.

Honestly, I'm fully expecting them to reveal an entirely new look for Cait Sith. It just does not fit any of the aesthetics which they have revealed for the game so far. This is going to be one of several new 're imaginings'.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Reiterating what Mako said about the fur in AC. That explanation was given by Nomura, and seems to hold up, as the moogle mount was added in for ACC.

I'd also argue that its presence in the remake's aesthetic won't be any more ridiculous than it was in that of AC/ACC. And arguably less ridiculous than that of random encounter enemies we already know will be retained from the original.

 

[Claymore]

I'd also argue that its presence in the remake's aeathetic won't be any more ridiculous than it was in that of AC/ACC.

To be fair that was just 5 seconds in the flashback and it did look quite ridiculous.

I'd personally love them to keep him the same, more because of the significance that would mean for the rest of the game and other areas, but we'll see.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Seriously.

There's no evidence at all that Cait or anything about him is being changed.

By that logic I'm predicting they're going to just take out Chocobos because "it just does not fit any of the aesthetics which they have revealed for the game thus far."

Like, seriously? The whole point of Final Fantasy is the integration and sometimes juxtaposition of core FF tropes with the unique scenario of the story.

FFXIII's hyper-futuristic sci-fi setting didn't cause it to ditch Chocobos, Cactuars or Tonberries. Like at all.

FFXV's realistic yet magical setting didn't cause it to ditch those same things either.

FFVII's techno dystopian and realistic setting is going to remain juxtaposed with the same core fantasy elements it had before. The creators could've done away with it all that with Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus, but you know what they did?

They dug right in.

 

[ChipNoir]

Any talk of "Aesthetic" flies out the window the moment you remember Wedge is a character.

 

[pxp]

Is Palmer more Moogle Doll-esque or Wedge-esque?

 

[Kain424]

All this is to say nothing on what they'll do with Mukki.

 

[Claymore]

Eww. That reminds me how much I hate mods which do that to the sprites. It really doesn't fit.

 

[Kain424]

I was just upset the speedos were replaced.

 

[Roger]

The five seconds it appeared in Advent Children was basically a still image. It's not like they actually had it walk around with Cloud and be treated as a member of AVALANCHE and close friend of Cloud in it's own right until revealed to be robot. Wedge and Palmer are overweight people, those exist. In this setting talking animals are established to exist. The moogle is not those things.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It most certainly is one of those things.....Moogles exist in Final Fantasy VII too.

How the hell is a giant, cartoon bipedal bird okay but a fuzzy stuffed bear-like monster with a stuffed cat on it, not?

I mean, that's neglecting the dancing cacti or the murderous yet adorable robbed lizard monsters with the star floating above their heads...

Really? I'm really not grasping how Cait Sith's full body is somehow not fitting in with the myriad of fantastical and whimsical elements of FFVII. Especially when the only reason it was omitted in AC was a graphical issue.

 

[pxp]

Bear in my mind too that you first meet Cait Sith in the Gold Saucer and you have no idea of his/its true identity at that point. He very much fits into the theme park aesthetic of that particular location (doubtless that’s Reeve’s plan, he’s so NOT SHINRA), and it’s not at all incongruent - even with modern graphics.

 

[Kain424]

Yeah, this is kind of a non-issue.

 

[hian]

I'm not really seeing the comparison's here, like at all.

A chocobo is an ostrich crossed with a chicken. Both birds exist. The moogle is a giant plush animal that looks nothing like any living creature I am familiar with.

FFXIII has a much more stylized aesthetic than that of the remake, stronger color palette etc. and FFXV has clearly gone for realism in the structure and appearance of all its in-game animals. There are no moogles in FFVX (except as a plush toy). Also, we absolutely do not know to what extent they'll be including, changing or removing the other weird looking creatures and enemies in the game.

So, while I am not going to assume anything about how much they will change in terms of Caith Sith's appearance, or the other creatures in FFVII for that matter, I do not consider it unreasonable to imagine a scenario were most of that stuff is either removed or changed to such a degree it's almost unrecognizable to fit their new vision of realism in the game.
It could pan in all kinds of ways. We could be looking at a Metal Gear-esque Kojima levels of genuis in terms of blending the real with the surreal, or we could be looking at a weird mish-mash of cringy crap that doesn't blend at all, or we could be looking at a stream-lined, consistent and grounded version of FFVII.
Who knows? The idea that we can know at this point which is more likely I think is pretty hard to argue.
Looking at the trailers we've gotten though, the last alternative looks the most likely to me.
Problem is however, we cannot really even go by those trailers anymore, so back to zero with that.

The above arguments though are not solid rebuttals to the worry expressed by some here imo. They're comparing apples to oranges. A chocobo is nothing like a moogle in terms of design or concept. FFXIII looks nothing like the remake aesthetically, and FFXV, the only other game that seems somewhat to function as a parallel to what we've seen of the remake, literally cut out almost almost all the goofy elements of FF except for some really weird and tonally inane DLC content like the cup noodle stuff, and the Terra Battle cross-over.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Moogles exist in FFVII as materia and Zack makes friends with a moogle. They're magical creatures as is the norm in any Final Fantasy.

Moogles exist in FFXIII's universe or did you forget the one Serah travels with that serves as her weapon and was gifted to her by her sister?

So again. They exist in almost every FF that exists.

I'll do you one better. Fucking Magic Pots live in the Northern Cave. Cute little gremlins that live in pots and ask for Elixirs.

And again. TONBERRIES. Cute murderous lizard creatures that wear robes and wield a chef's knife.

A chocobo being a cross between a chicken and an ostrich is ridiculous despite both being existent. I don't understand how that is sensical and OK but the OTHER mascots of Final Fantasy are just a bridge too far. They're ALL mascots of Final Fantasy. All of them. Final Fantasy VII is a FINAL FANTASY. So it's going to be an FF game and incorporate the tropes of said series. ESPECIALLY if as said by the developers, they want to capture the feel of the original in this remake. Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima are working on it and have NEVER shied away from including those key aspects of the franchise. Look at the previous games, like... I dunno. ALL of the games they worked on? The other FFVII Compilation titles? Everything?

FFXV is not the same as it was done by Tabata. Tabata was the one with the hard on for realism and ensuring the fantasy and realistic aspects mirrored one another. Hence the exclusion of certain summons and things like moogles from FFXV. And guess what? He's fired.

Like what is this, I don't even.

 

[Kain424]

Well, to play devil's advocate a bit here with Hian, didn't a team member say something a while back about attempting to make things look more functional and realistic? I can't remember the actual quote.

 

[pxp]

FFXV is not the same as it was done by Tabata. Tabata was the one with the hard on for realism and ensuring the fantasy and realistic aspects mirrored one another. Hence the exclusion of certain summons and things like moogles from FFXV. And guess what? He's fired.

And yet there's this of course (albeit DLC but still):

Well, to play devil's advocate a bit here with Hian, didn't a team member say something a while back about attempting to make things look more functional and realistic? I can't remember the actual quote.

They're apparently mixing realism and stylisation:

"We learn that the team is aiming to balance realism and stylized look. If the characters were to appear too realistic, they wouldn’t be recognizable, so they’re looking to settle one step shorter of realism in order to preserve the characters personalities." (Dec 2015)

https://www.dualshockers.com/final-...arty-size-battle-character-graphics-and-more/

 

[Makoeyes987]

...That sounds more like evidence of them wanting TO keep things true to the original and including things like Cait's moogle doll. Not like they're taking shit away for "realism."

Like again. What is even this discussion?

 

[Kain424]

Oh, I agree. Everything they've said indicates they want to please the fans.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The above arguments though are not solid rebuttals to the worry expressed by some here imo. They're comparing apples to oranges. A chocobo is nothing like a moogle in terms of design or concept. FFXIII looks nothing like the remake aesthetically, and FFXV, the only other game that seems somewhat to function as a parallel to what we've seen of the remake, literally cut out almost almost all the goofy elements of FF except for some really weird and tonally inane DLC content like the cup noodle stuff, and the Terra Battle cross-over.

XV still features Carbuncle, tonberries, chocobos -- and plush moogle dolls you can use as decoys in battle. Cait Sith's mount is literally that: a stuffed toy.

Being "a fantasy based on reality," XV is also not the best point of comparison for VII's remake anyway, what with it being a fantasy based on FFVII.

I also really have to ask how the moogle mount is any goofier than the comedic talking cat riding it? Why would one get the boot, but not the other? If "we don't want goofy" is a concern here, they would have to just remove the character altogether a la Daniel Burke's bizarre obsession.

Nomura has already said they intend to preserve Cloud's dorky personality from the original FFVII -- so if even he's not so myopic as to want to remove that so they can fully lean into "My Edge Is Too Sharp 4U" nonsense, I don't see them gutting the whimsical aspects of the setting either.

The Cup Noodles quest wasn't DLC, by the way.

FFXV is not the same as it was done by Tabata. Tabata was the one with the hard on for realism and ensuring the fantasy and realistic aspects mirrored one another. Hence the exclusion of certain summons and things like moogles from FFXV. And guess what? He's fired.

Unlike with Sakaguchi or Matsuno, there's no reason to believe "Tabata quit" is Japanese business speak for "homeboy was fired."

In what way is Tabata responsible for XV's aesthetic, by the way? Other than by being the director, I mean. That "fantasy based on reality" thing was long established before he was put in charge.

For that matter, what "exclusion of certain summons" are you talking about? He included half a dozen of the most popular classic summons from the series -- one of whom is an enormous water snake!

 

[ChipNoir]

...That sounds more like evidence of them wanting TO keep things true to the original and including things like Cait's moogle doll. Not like they're taking shit away for "realism."

Like again. What is even this discussion?

The rippling echoes of concern caused by the compilation. It's true that while the compilation has it's absurdist moments, they feel a lot more diminished in favor of the "Look, we're a gritty, serious drama now!" vibe of that series of games and media. FFXIII and XV both also have their moments of levity, but they tend to also lean again on that post-modern aesthetic more than the first 10 games except maybe 8 ever did it.

It does tend to feel like the charm has been sucked out of the franchise as of late for larger scale games. Not that I don't think Nomura couldn't bring it back in VII if he wanted to. KH3 has shown he's clearly capable of working with such elements.

Question being: Do Nomura, Nojima, and Kitase WANT to work with it. given they seem to have near total creative control? I don't know if we can say one way or the other yet.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Unlike with Sakaguchi or Matsuno, there's no reason to believe "Tabata quit" is Japanese business speak for "homeboy was fired."

In what way is Tabata responsible for XV's aesthetic, by the way? Other than by being the director, I mean. That "fantasy based on reality" thing was long established before he was put in charge.

I admit that's more my conspiratorial bent on how it all happened, speaking there. But the whole thing reeked of him being forced out or something.

Like, him announcing it on a livestream anniversary special thing. And then S-E announcing the amount of money lost on his projects. And Tabata essentially going, "Thanks to me leaving, S-E has decided to totally axe EVERYTHING I worked on and promised for this game series, but I'm so appreciative of them for my time here. And I'm leaving right now! So thank you everyone and goodnight!"

Like, it was *weird.* Then after he leaves, he says in not so many words he was not happy there, and then I swore I read somewhere he revealed more of how they were coming down hard on him. But alas, yes. Technically he quit. But it didn't seem he quit under the most positive circumstances. And the fact S-E made a point to axe it all seemed purely malicious.

For that matter, what "exclusion of certain summons" are you talking about? He included half a dozen of the most popular classic summons from the series -- one of whom is an enormous water snake!

I could have sworn I read an interview that talked about how he wanted summons to be viewed as gods and integrate with the elements of the world and while he liked Odin, he couldn't quite think of how he would make it fit with that goal in my mind. It was Odin and another one, but it escapes me, right now. And I briefly forgot that FFXV was Versus XIII and in crackpot Nomura's hands before. My bad

The rippling echoes of concern caused by the compilation. It's true that while the compilation has it's absurdist moments, they feel a lot more diminished in favor of the "Look, we're a gritty, serious drama now!" vibe of that series of games and media. FFXIII and XV both also have their moments of levity, but they tend to also lean again on that post-modern aesthetic more than the first 10 games except maybe 8 ever did it.

It does tend to feel like the charm has been sucked out of the franchise as of late for larger scale games. Not that I don't think Nomura couldn't bring it back in VII if he wanted to. KH3 has shown he's clearly capable of working with such elements.

Question being: Do Nomura, Nojima, and Kitase WANT to work with it. given they seem to have near total creative control? I don't know if we can say one way or the other yet.

This was never a concern spawned from the Compilation. What?

For like the hundredth time. The Compilation took great pains to include all of the fantasy and whimsical elements of FFVII in each entry. It had more than just have its absurdist moments.

If Cait Sith hoping out of a fucking Reeve puppet body after being shot is a sign that they're going to jettison all the humor and fantasy of FFVII then they telegraphed such a design choice in the most shitty way possible. Totally a serious, and gritty drama moment there

And if KH3 is the only modern example of S-E keeping it's "charm" to you, then I have no idea where you are. Cause that's... LOL nevermind.

 

[ChipNoir]

You can list all the isolated moments you want Mako, but it's still not a balanced representation. They come too far and few in between compared to how the original game balanced things. It makes those moments feel half-assed. Like someone at Square went "Oh right, I need to include these or they'll be bored. Right that's done now back to my perfect serious storytelling."

There just isn't that much to work with here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Those aren't "isolated moments" anymore than they are in any FF game, they are literally everywhere throughout the entire games.

If Zack taking a vacation in Costa del Sol in his swim trunks and fighting with a beach umbrella, playing tag with Yuffie throughout the world, joining SOLDIER fanclubs that poke good fun at the fangirls of the bishounen characters, doing missions at the fucking Chocobo Ranch, building a flower cart with Aerith in the slums with everyone helping out, seeing Wall Market references again, making friends with FF mascots as summons, seeing the old school enemies of the franchise again in FFVII's style, not to mention the myriad of other callbacks like in BC with the callbacks to every memorable location and OG character, DC with Cait Sith and Yuffie hamming it up, AND the other games easter eggs that exist in AC which reference the OG, are somehow just "isolated moments" then you're essentially blinded by the cloudiest of nostalgia goggles at this point. Nothing is going to be good enough for you unless its like...a 1:1 recreation of FFVII down to the lego polygon models.