Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Kain424]

All this is to say nothing on what they'll do with Mukki.

 

[Claymore]

Eww. That reminds me how much I hate mods which do that to the sprites. It really doesn't fit.

 

[Kain424]

I was just upset the speedos were replaced.

 

[Roger]

The five seconds it appeared in Advent Children was basically a still image. It's not like they actually had it walk around with Cloud and be treated as a member of AVALANCHE and close friend of Cloud in it's own right until revealed to be robot. Wedge and Palmer are overweight people, those exist. In this setting talking animals are established to exist. The moogle is not those things.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It most certainly is one of those things.....Moogles exist in Final Fantasy VII too.

How the hell is a giant, cartoon bipedal bird okay but a fuzzy stuffed bear-like monster with a stuffed cat on it, not?

I mean, that's neglecting the dancing cacti or the murderous yet adorable robbed lizard monsters with the star floating above their heads...

Really? I'm really not grasping how Cait Sith's full body is somehow not fitting in with the myriad of fantastical and whimsical elements of FFVII. Especially when the only reason it was omitted in AC was a graphical issue.

 

[pxp]

Bear in my mind too that you first meet Cait Sith in the Gold Saucer and you have no idea of his/its true identity at that point. He very much fits into the theme park aesthetic of that particular location (doubtless that’s Reeve’s plan, he’s so NOT SHINRA), and it’s not at all incongruent - even with modern graphics.

 

[Kain424]

Yeah, this is kind of a non-issue.

 

[hian]

I'm not really seeing the comparison's here, like at all.

A chocobo is an ostrich crossed with a chicken. Both birds exist. The moogle is a giant plush animal that looks nothing like any living creature I am familiar with.

FFXIII has a much more stylized aesthetic than that of the remake, stronger color palette etc. and FFXV has clearly gone for realism in the structure and appearance of all its in-game animals. There are no moogles in FFVX (except as a plush toy). Also, we absolutely do not know to what extent they'll be including, changing or removing the other weird looking creatures and enemies in the game.

So, while I am not going to assume anything about how much they will change in terms of Caith Sith's appearance, or the other creatures in FFVII for that matter, I do not consider it unreasonable to imagine a scenario were most of that stuff is either removed or changed to such a degree it's almost unrecognizable to fit their new vision of realism in the game.
It could pan in all kinds of ways. We could be looking at a Metal Gear-esque Kojima levels of genuis in terms of blending the real with the surreal, or we could be looking at a weird mish-mash of cringy crap that doesn't blend at all, or we could be looking at a stream-lined, consistent and grounded version of FFVII.
Who knows? The idea that we can know at this point which is more likely I think is pretty hard to argue.
Looking at the trailers we've gotten though, the last alternative looks the most likely to me.
Problem is however, we cannot really even go by those trailers anymore, so back to zero with that.

The above arguments though are not solid rebuttals to the worry expressed by some here imo. They're comparing apples to oranges. A chocobo is nothing like a moogle in terms of design or concept. FFXIII looks nothing like the remake aesthetically, and FFXV, the only other game that seems somewhat to function as a parallel to what we've seen of the remake, literally cut out almost almost all the goofy elements of FF except for some really weird and tonally inane DLC content like the cup noodle stuff, and the Terra Battle cross-over.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Moogles exist in FFVII as materia and Zack makes friends with a moogle. They're magical creatures as is the norm in any Final Fantasy.

Moogles exist in FFXIII's universe or did you forget the one Serah travels with that serves as her weapon and was gifted to her by her sister?

So again. They exist in almost every FF that exists.

I'll do you one better. Fucking Magic Pots live in the Northern Cave. Cute little gremlins that live in pots and ask for Elixirs.

And again. TONBERRIES. Cute murderous lizard creatures that wear robes and wield a chef's knife.

A chocobo being a cross between a chicken and an ostrich is ridiculous despite both being existent. I don't understand how that is sensical and OK but the OTHER mascots of Final Fantasy are just a bridge too far. They're ALL mascots of Final Fantasy. All of them. Final Fantasy VII is a FINAL FANTASY. So it's going to be an FF game and incorporate the tropes of said series. ESPECIALLY if as said by the developers, they want to capture the feel of the original in this remake. Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima are working on it and have NEVER shied away from including those key aspects of the franchise. Look at the previous games, like... I dunno. ALL of the games they worked on? The other FFVII Compilation titles? Everything?

FFXV is not the same as it was done by Tabata. Tabata was the one with the hard on for realism and ensuring the fantasy and realistic aspects mirrored one another. Hence the exclusion of certain summons and things like moogles from FFXV. And guess what? He's fired.

Like what is this, I don't even.

 

[Kain424]

Well, to play devil's advocate a bit here with Hian, didn't a team member say something a while back about attempting to make things look more functional and realistic? I can't remember the actual quote.

 

[pxp]

FFXV is not the same as it was done by Tabata. Tabata was the one with the hard on for realism and ensuring the fantasy and realistic aspects mirrored one another. Hence the exclusion of certain summons and things like moogles from FFXV. And guess what? He's fired.

And yet there's this of course (albeit DLC but still):

Well, to play devil's advocate a bit here with Hian, didn't a team member say something a while back about attempting to make things look more functional and realistic? I can't remember the actual quote.

They're apparently mixing realism and stylisation:

"We learn that the team is aiming to balance realism and stylized look. If the characters were to appear too realistic, they wouldn’t be recognizable, so they’re looking to settle one step shorter of realism in order to preserve the characters personalities." (Dec 2015)

https://www.dualshockers.com/final-...arty-size-battle-character-graphics-and-more/

 

[Makoeyes987]

...That sounds more like evidence of them wanting TO keep things true to the original and including things like Cait's moogle doll. Not like they're taking shit away for "realism."

Like again. What is even this discussion?

 

[Kain424]

Oh, I agree. Everything they've said indicates they want to please the fans.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The above arguments though are not solid rebuttals to the worry expressed by some here imo. They're comparing apples to oranges. A chocobo is nothing like a moogle in terms of design or concept. FFXIII looks nothing like the remake aesthetically, and FFXV, the only other game that seems somewhat to function as a parallel to what we've seen of the remake, literally cut out almost almost all the goofy elements of FF except for some really weird and tonally inane DLC content like the cup noodle stuff, and the Terra Battle cross-over.

XV still features Carbuncle, tonberries, chocobos -- and plush moogle dolls you can use as decoys in battle. Cait Sith's mount is literally that: a stuffed toy.

Being "a fantasy based on reality," XV is also not the best point of comparison for VII's remake anyway, what with it being a fantasy based on FFVII.

I also really have to ask how the moogle mount is any goofier than the comedic talking cat riding it? Why would one get the boot, but not the other? If "we don't want goofy" is a concern here, they would have to just remove the character altogether a la Daniel Burke's bizarre obsession.

Nomura has already said they intend to preserve Cloud's dorky personality from the original FFVII -- so if even he's not so myopic as to want to remove that so they can fully lean into "My Edge Is Too Sharp 4U" nonsense, I don't see them gutting the whimsical aspects of the setting either.

The Cup Noodles quest wasn't DLC, by the way.

FFXV is not the same as it was done by Tabata. Tabata was the one with the hard on for realism and ensuring the fantasy and realistic aspects mirrored one another. Hence the exclusion of certain summons and things like moogles from FFXV. And guess what? He's fired.

Unlike with Sakaguchi or Matsuno, there's no reason to believe "Tabata quit" is Japanese business speak for "homeboy was fired."

In what way is Tabata responsible for XV's aesthetic, by the way? Other than by being the director, I mean. That "fantasy based on reality" thing was long established before he was put in charge.

For that matter, what "exclusion of certain summons" are you talking about? He included half a dozen of the most popular classic summons from the series -- one of whom is an enormous water snake!

 

[ChipNoir]

...That sounds more like evidence of them wanting TO keep things true to the original and including things like Cait's moogle doll. Not like they're taking shit away for "realism."

Like again. What is even this discussion?

The rippling echoes of concern caused by the compilation. It's true that while the compilation has it's absurdist moments, they feel a lot more diminished in favor of the "Look, we're a gritty, serious drama now!" vibe of that series of games and media. FFXIII and XV both also have their moments of levity, but they tend to also lean again on that post-modern aesthetic more than the first 10 games except maybe 8 ever did it.

It does tend to feel like the charm has been sucked out of the franchise as of late for larger scale games. Not that I don't think Nomura couldn't bring it back in VII if he wanted to. KH3 has shown he's clearly capable of working with such elements.

Question being: Do Nomura, Nojima, and Kitase WANT to work with it. given they seem to have near total creative control? I don't know if we can say one way or the other yet.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Unlike with Sakaguchi or Matsuno, there's no reason to believe "Tabata quit" is Japanese business speak for "homeboy was fired."

In what way is Tabata responsible for XV's aesthetic, by the way? Other than by being the director, I mean. That "fantasy based on reality" thing was long established before he was put in charge.

I admit that's more my conspiratorial bent on how it all happened, speaking there. But the whole thing reeked of him being forced out or something.

Like, him announcing it on a livestream anniversary special thing. And then S-E announcing the amount of money lost on his projects. And Tabata essentially going, "Thanks to me leaving, S-E has decided to totally axe EVERYTHING I worked on and promised for this game series, but I'm so appreciative of them for my time here. And I'm leaving right now! So thank you everyone and goodnight!"

Like, it was *weird.* Then after he leaves, he says in not so many words he was not happy there, and then I swore I read somewhere he revealed more of how they were coming down hard on him. But alas, yes. Technically he quit. But it didn't seem he quit under the most positive circumstances. And the fact S-E made a point to axe it all seemed purely malicious.

For that matter, what "exclusion of certain summons" are you talking about? He included half a dozen of the most popular classic summons from the series -- one of whom is an enormous water snake!

I could have sworn I read an interview that talked about how he wanted summons to be viewed as gods and integrate with the elements of the world and while he liked Odin, he couldn't quite think of how he would make it fit with that goal in my mind. It was Odin and another one, but it escapes me, right now. And I briefly forgot that FFXV was Versus XIII and in crackpot Nomura's hands before. My bad

The rippling echoes of concern caused by the compilation. It's true that while the compilation has it's absurdist moments, they feel a lot more diminished in favor of the "Look, we're a gritty, serious drama now!" vibe of that series of games and media. FFXIII and XV both also have their moments of levity, but they tend to also lean again on that post-modern aesthetic more than the first 10 games except maybe 8 ever did it.

It does tend to feel like the charm has been sucked out of the franchise as of late for larger scale games. Not that I don't think Nomura couldn't bring it back in VII if he wanted to. KH3 has shown he's clearly capable of working with such elements.

Question being: Do Nomura, Nojima, and Kitase WANT to work with it. given they seem to have near total creative control? I don't know if we can say one way or the other yet.

This was never a concern spawned from the Compilation. What?

For like the hundredth time. The Compilation took great pains to include all of the fantasy and whimsical elements of FFVII in each entry. It had more than just have its absurdist moments.

If Cait Sith hoping out of a fucking Reeve puppet body after being shot is a sign that they're going to jettison all the humor and fantasy of FFVII then they telegraphed such a design choice in the most shitty way possible. Totally a serious, and gritty drama moment there

And if KH3 is the only modern example of S-E keeping it's "charm" to you, then I have no idea where you are. Cause that's... LOL nevermind.

 

[ChipNoir]

You can list all the isolated moments you want Mako, but it's still not a balanced representation. They come too far and few in between compared to how the original game balanced things. It makes those moments feel half-assed. Like someone at Square went "Oh right, I need to include these or they'll be bored. Right that's done now back to my perfect serious storytelling."

There just isn't that much to work with here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Those aren't "isolated moments" anymore than they are in any FF game, they are literally everywhere throughout the entire games.

If Zack taking a vacation in Costa del Sol in his swim trunks and fighting with a beach umbrella, playing tag with Yuffie throughout the world, joining SOLDIER fanclubs that poke good fun at the fangirls of the bishounen characters, doing missions at the fucking Chocobo Ranch, building a flower cart with Aerith in the slums with everyone helping out, seeing Wall Market references again, making friends with FF mascots as summons, seeing the old school enemies of the franchise again in FFVII's style, not to mention the myriad of other callbacks like in BC with the callbacks to every memorable location and OG character, DC with Cait Sith and Yuffie hamming it up, AND the other games easter eggs that exist in AC which reference the OG, are somehow just "isolated moments" then you're essentially blinded by the cloudiest of nostalgia goggles at this point. Nothing is going to be good enough for you unless its like...a 1:1 recreation of FFVII down to the lego polygon models.

 

[ChipNoir]

Those aren't "isolated moments" anymore than they are in any FF game, they are literally everywhere throughout the entire games.

If Zack taking a vacation in Costa del Sol in his swim trunks and fighting with a beach umbrella, playing tag with Yuffie throughout the world, joining SOLDIER fanclubs that poke good fun at the fangirls of the bishounen characters, doing missions at the fucking Chocobo Ranch, building a flower cart with Aerith in the slums with everyone helping out, seeing Wall Market references again, making friends with FF mascots as summons, seeing the old school enemies of the franchise again in FFVII's style, not to mention the myriad of other callbacks like in BC with the callbacks to every memorable location and OG character, DC with Cait Sith and Yuffie hamming it up, AND the other games easter eggs that exist in AC which reference the OG, are somehow just "isolated moments" then you're essentially blinded by the cloudiest of nostalgia goggles at this point. Nothing is going to be good enough for you unless its like...a 1:1 recreation of FFVII down to the lego polygon models.

All just feel poorly done, and off-hand in my eyes. The attempt is there, but they don't feel well executed, and there's a lot of padded grind time between those moments. They just don't work for me. I didn't need silly one-line fangirl jokes in the original, why do I need them in a prequel?

None of it feels connected to the irreverent, earthy, and oddball tone of the original. It just feels...bleh.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because the games exist in the present where at least 15 years of fandom, history, and experience with the OG beyond it being a PSone game exists. Just like the original FFVII made reference and jokes relevant to its time, so did the games that came after it. You wanting all of FFVII to exist in a hermetically sealed jar which absconds all manner of evolution and relevance is not how this works. That's how something stays dead.

It doesn't need to just be 1:1 copy to keep the spirit of the original. Nor should it.

 

[ChipNoir]

Mako, calm the heck down. I'm critiquing a game based on subjective emotional reaction. I am not stabbing your first born child.

And stop assuming what I want. You haven't a clue what I want, and it's starting to be a bit irritating.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm perfectly calm, I'm just criticizing you're bizarre originalist tone and view that the Compilation is apparently some grimdark post apocalyptic dystopian hellscape that makes no room for moogle dolls, chocobos and makes Akira look like Disneyworld

 

[Claymore]

Maybe take a step back for a sec? Your posts certainly do read as hyper-aggressive, and it feels like you are taking opinions not aligning with your own rather personally.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...If "hyper-aggressive" is pointing out a non-issue with evidence of said non-issue-ness given the stuffed moogle doll is literally side-by-side with every other anchored FF mascots in all subsequent FFVII Compilation titles..

I guess I'm a Super Saiyan. Go me

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What Clay said. Also, your ellipses privileges are suspensed for 24 hours.