Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Castiel Strife]

True. And the idea of two or more different play-modes, while neat, isn't something you can expect from really any AAA title. They spend far too much time creating battle systems and the like for them to do that.

Now... someone eventually modding something like that on PC? Maybe. But also incredibly difficult. I wouldn't expect it.

I get that and I tried to reiterate in my post that it would be extremely difficult and unlikely. I just think it’d be neat if they found a way.

Personally, I am all for it going action. I was against it at first (not to the point where I pretended I wouldn’t buy or play the game), but I quickly got over that and now I welcome it and am glad they are modernizing the combat.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

Yeah, I think the abandoning of turn-based was something a lot of us older-school veterans had to "come to grips with"...in my case, the RM being the start and the catalyst for it, but ultimately, with gaming/RPG-ing at large. I still standby the thought that the core foundation of a well-built turn based system is still something that could totally work in a 'modern' game, and needn't be thought of as having been fundamentally 'surpassed'. In a sense, I consider it not too far removed from the way in which 2D graphics + gameplay were considered 'lost' things of the past in games like Mortal Kombat or Sonic for quite a while, before time eventually proved that there were things achievable within those systems that weren't within 3D and, most importantly, that the "fun factor" wasn't lost. Whenever a mechanic is in some way linked to 'hardware limitations', and the ceiling of limitations is raised, the line between what is fundamentally less 'fun', and what is merely an 'alternative', seems to deeply blur. It's the difference between ditching the combos that "Street Fighter II" introduced to return to the originals punches and kicks, and declaring that all of the series entries after "EX" should be in 3D, because two-directional movement is 'archaic'. There's quite a distinction, even if both were born from evolutions in tech and design.

But, at the same time, I've come to terms with not expecting that from "Final Fantasy", and (obviously) not from the RM specifically.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You know, FFXV had "Wait Mode" which was essentially like a turn based battle system you could use instead of action combat.

That was a thing. Granted battles with time limits were disallowed from being played in Wait Mode but the rest of the game could be played in the classic style.

 

[ChipNoir]

It doesn't quite work so well, since you have to activate it EVERY time you want to freeze things, and sometimes it doesn't really help all that much. The other aspect of TBRPGs is everything is very organized. action-rpgs are usually a chaotic mess of melee. Pausing doesn't really do much to remedy that. Either you're able to be in the moment, or you're going to be jamming WAIT every other hit, and that doesn't really sound like fun.

 

[Claymore]

What's funny is that Bravely Default and Octopath Traveller showed that turn-based systems are still utterly loved, and that they can work in a modern game. However, with the need to create games with as much mass appeal as possible, an action RPG is the compromise.

I do have hope that they will still present a lot of the RPG side of things, if the targeting system is anything to go by. However, the core of VII's system to me is the Materia, and what they do with magic is really the defining issue here.

 

[Gary Caelum]

That's a common claim that they ditched it because action has more of a mainstream appeal.

And yet, FF7 is still the best selling in the series.

My theory is they've largely ditched turn-based because it doesn't make for very good preview trailers. They want something that looks flashy! Characters calmly standing in a line waiting for their turn has always looked a bit silly.

 

[Lulcielid]

That's a common claim that they ditched it because action has more of a mainstream appeal.

And yet, FF7 is still the best selling in the series.

My theory is they've largely ditched turn-based because it doesn't make for very good preview trailers. They want something that looks flashy! Characters calmly standing in a line waiting for their turn has always looked a bit silly.

A bit of context to VII numbers. By August 2015 VII had sold over 11 millon copies across multiple platforms, so 11 millons in almost 18 years and 7 months.

XV sold 8.4 millons by October 2018, over 1 year 11 months since its release.

Meaning an ARPG sold 76.36% of the best selling TBRPG (of SQEX) in 10.3% of the time it took the later to reach those figures.

 

[Gary Caelum]

That's misleading. FF7 sold about 10 million on the PS1 within 4-5 years. Then the 1 million up to 2015 was just on the PS3/PSP/Vita, which happened about a decade later.
So comparing like for like would be comparing the 10 million to whatever figure XV reaches by the end of the PS4, which will almost definitely be less than 10 million. Sales tend to decrease quite heavily over time, so it's very unlikely it'll sell another 1.5 million after 2.5 years, unless of course they do add more to it and release another retail version (or maybe if Episode Ardyn happens to be incredible and it generates enough buzz)

 

[ChipNoir]

I think changing demographics also need to be considered here...

 

[Ryuman]

I think changing demographics also need to be considered here...

Yeah, turn based RPGs were very popular in gaming many years ago, but now paradigms have shifted. It's not anything to do with the validity of the genre, there is just a different audience with different tastes. Of course I don't have a graph or anything though.
Beyond that, Nomura just likes action games.

 

[Lulcielid]

That's misleading. FF7 sold about 10 million on the PS1 within 4-5 years. Then the 1 million up to 2015 was just on the PS3/PSP/Vita, which happened about a decade later.
So comparing like for like would be comparing the 10 million to whatever figure XV reaches by the end of the PS4, which will almost definitely be less than 10 million. Sales tend to decrease quite heavily over time, so it's very unlikely it'll sell another 1.5 million after 2.5 years, unless of course they do add more to it and release another retail version (or maybe if Episode Ardyn happens to be incredible and it generates enough buzz)

My point (my bad in not making it clear) was that XV was the fastest selling game in the franchise, Square itself says so.

 

[ChipNoir]

My point (my bad in not making it clear) was that XV was the fastest selling game in the franchise, Square itself says so.

Doesn't that just have more to do with built up hype and controvercy? People tend to flock towards things with an unusual circumstance. A game overdue by five years with ten years of notoriety is something most people would have wanted to see ASAP rather than wait around for reviews.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A game overdue by five years with ten years of notoriety is something most people would have wanted to see ASAP rather than wait around for reviews.

I would have thought the opposite?

In any case, when FFVII came out, it had an unprecedented marketing push/hype machine.

 

[Castiel Strife]

What's funny is that Bravely Default and Octopath Traveller showed that turn-based systems are still utterly loved, and that they can work in a modern game. However, with the need to create games with as much mass appeal as possible, an action RPG is the compromise.

I do have hope that they will still present a lot of the RPG side of things, if the targeting system is anything to go by. However, the core of VII's system to me is the Materia, and what they do with magic is really the defining issue here.

To be fair both of those games are on a portable system. I’m not saying that makes your point any less relevant, but I still think it’s different than a huge AAA game on a PS4. That being said, Dragon Quest XI seems to be doing just fine as did Persona.

I will love the remake no matter what. It can be “Dance Dance Revolution: Final Fantasy VII Edition” and I will still love it and defend it to my grave. But as time has gone by, I prefer action RPGs to turn-based styles these days. I still think there is a place for turn-based games and there are still ways to spice them up, but I enjoy the action more and feel they are more immersive as far as combat goes.

 

[KiwiPizza]

What were they referring to with the 'one major game per year' though? Just the main Square Enix Japan devs? Cos surely Tomb Raider and Dragon Quest XI count as major games for 2018 as well?

My impression is they mean high profile games. So...

I’m pretty sure they were referring to KH3, 7R, Avengers Project. I think there’s a slide out there from one of the internal presentations

My running theory is that there's only one "Game", the basic install.

So that's how I think VII-R is going to work: You pay for the initial digital download or CD (CD's these days seem to just be data dumps and you have to install content from online anyways), and every part after just shoves more data onto your hardrive to continue where you left off.

So it'll probably be impossible for anyone to play the remake's second part (and onward) without already having purchased and completed part 1.

That has also been my theory for a while. One App on the PS4 dashboard/PS5 dashboard that grows in size with each part.

However I will disagree about making Part 1 mandatory to own as that makes Part 2 story content that is locked out without first buying something else. Players will probably be unable to access the Part 1 locations and unable to backtrack but I can’t see Part 2 itself be totally locked unless Part 2 has like a data install comparable to Read Dead Redemption 2 where it adds your missing data if you don’t already own Part 1. It could just put you in at a predetermined level.

I’m not sure why people would skip a part though.

 

[Claymore]

To be fair both of those games are on a portable system. I’m not saying that makes your point any less relevant, but I still think it’s different than a huge AAA game on a PS4. That being said, Dragon Quest XI seems to be doing just fine as did Persona..

I was just about to counter your point with those very two additional examples, so I'm glad you brought them up, lol. The need for traditional turn based games is certainly there, but the real sentiment I wanted to make here was that action-RPGs appeal more to a wider audience, which is more and more a requirement / need for many big companies. The trend is shifting more to smaller companies embracing the 'niche', at least from what I've witnessed.


I disagree with the 'initial install + additional downloads' theory of the Remakes composition. That's a heck of a lot of data, with each part hosting all new areas, items, enemies, materia, mini-games, etc... I just can't see that working. And isn't SE very anti-patch / uploads anyway? I mean, they prefer to have as much as possible on a disc, whether that's a consideration for download limits, speeds or not. I seem to remember that XV was delayed for a bit so that the base printed game could have all the newest improvements on them - though saying that, that still did not stop the day one patch of course, lol. Or am I remembering wrong?

 

[ChipNoir]

It could just as easily be disc data, although disc-switching seems a little frowned on these days in favor of data installs as far as people go? I dunno.

My main point is the idea that I really don't think it's a good to make FFVII pt 2 just playable on it's own. It provides too many complications that are easily sidestepped by just treating it as an extension of the original first part's software.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

FFXV has had an absolutely enormous amount of data to be downloaded.

 

[KiwiPizza]

Part 2 should be playable on its own.

I mean if they’re treating as “multiple full sized” as Kitase has stated then Part 2 onwards should really be playable no matter what. You just don’t get to experience the story up to that point yourself.

It wouldn’t be disc switching either until the next part comes along and you can just use that to play the whole content upto the end of the Part you own.

If you don’t own Part 1 then Part 2 just adds the software to your console anyway. I am in agreement with each part being an add-on of sorts, it’s just locking Part 2 content behind not owing Part 1 would be mad (despite me not quite getting why you’d jump in at the second part as you’ll miss the first part of the story anyway)

I do think an install disc is an option.

If SE have planned this out with careful consideration then all Parts form a single piece of software and eventually allow you, for example, to freely travel the planet by the end of the final part as is in the original and return to Part 1 content. All content will be in your console by the time you’ve downloaded the final Part. Install discs may be required.

Perhaps part 2 onwards allow you to buy either Part 2 on its own or Part 1 + Part 2 bundle.

Also in response to the XV stuff, the game has had quite a few patches

 

[ChipNoir]

I just don't see why anyone WOULD just jump into part two. It seems like trying to come up with solutions for a very stupid minority.

 

[Gary Caelum]

Well no-one would really jump into Lightning Returns if they hadn't played the first 2 games either.

That's not a perfect analogy because those stories are much more detached. But still, I seriously doubt anyone bought that who hadn't played the original.

The Mass Effect approach seems best to me. They're clearly part of a trilogy, but they just frame it so that they're kinda separate stories, so that they can be standalone games. FF7 could easily do something similar with a bit of tweaking to the story.

 

[Claymore]

RE: XV - yeah I know it had a lot of patches, but SE were quite adamant that they wanted as much as possible contained on the actual disc itself. This concept certainly flew out the window with all the updates and improvements and player feedback which they needed to do to the game, but that was their goal.

I can't see the Remake being in the same position, with a base game and masses of updates / data to download on top of it. Each part is more likely to be a single self-contained game (install disc or not) with a defined end point and areas that can reached.

The Mass Effect approach seems best to me. They're clearly part of a trilogy, but they just frame it so that they're kinda separate stories, so that they can be standalone games. FF7 could easily do something similar with a bit of tweaking to the story.

Yes, this is the most likely scenario that I forsee.

 

[Gary Caelum]

The problem with each part being a separate game is that you couldn't revisit old locations. Which you even need to do for the story! So there's an issue.

 

[Claymore]

How so? You only really need to backtrack or revisit old locations right at the end for the Mega-Materia section. Anything before that, areas can be locked off for each story segment of the disc.

I assume that the final disc would have the whole world opened up for backtracking and exploration. This is, of course, assuming that we even get a standard airship at all.

 

[ChipNoir]

How so? You only really need to backtrack or revisit old locations right at the end for the Mega-Materia section. Anything before that, areas can be locked off for each story segment of the disc.

I assume that the final disc would have the whole world opened up for backtracking and exploration. This is, of course, assuming that we even get a standard airship at all.

People tend to not want to be locked out of areas like that. Look at how much flack XIII got.