How would you re-write AC/C?

[Flare]

After all, it's not like Cloud was overtly forced, against his will, to walk all the way up to the North crater.
Sure he was forced to raise his blade to Aerith and to hand over the black materia, but him walking all the way to the renuion happened without him knowing he was even being manipulated, and what I am saying is that the excuse that the Junon shop-keeper didn't do the same is because of his "strength of will" doesn't cut it in that context.

I know you said you're done talking about it, which is fine; there's just a couple things I wanted to mention
Sure, Cloud was being manipulated, but it wasn't all done subconsciously. In fact, I'd argue that if not for Sephiroth giving them something physical to go after and follow, they wouldn't have gone to the Northern Crater at all. Maybe Cloud would've had the urge and perhaps his weak will (yes I do believe it's a factor) would've made him more susceptible to the subconscious manipulation, unless Tifa stopped him.
But the physical and conscious manipulation most certainly played the biggest part. Sephiroth was leading them around, and Cloud was driven to follow and find him.

That's not how real psychology work.
Take the example of the demonstration technique for negative psychological suggestion -
I tell you not to think of black cat, and you will immediately do so to one degree or another. Your "strength of will" never comes into the picture.
The human psyche can be manipulated in many ways, and most of your psyche you have no conscious control of what so ever.

In either case though - it's not a real point to keep harping on about. I've already clarified that I consider it a relative non-issue because I don't expect a fantasy writer for a game to have extensive knowledge of human psychology and neuroscience.

I agree that a lot of things can happen subconsciously and instantly in you mind, before you have time to control it. I also think, however, like with the negative suggestion, that one could learn to resist such subconscious control that another is trying to exert over you.
Also, it is fiction (that we know of ), but it might not be so much a case of the creators not having extensive knowledge of human psychology and neuroscience, but that they are adding to the knowledge or bending them. Like I said above, who's to say that on the Planet with those humans, that such psychology isn't quite the same? Or that one can't learn to control their minds, consciously and subconsciously?

I'm just someone who, instead of thinking a creator might not know what they're talking about when it comes down to specifics, that they instead might be just creating their world and story, by expanding on what we already know or altering it.

Edit: Back to the topic at hand though... I did mull over this the other day and thought of some things I would've loved to have seen happen in the Remake but that didn't.

Firstly, make Cloud participate with the group a little more on the Bahamut fight. He sort of comes in at the end and does a 'save the day' thing. But this is a minor quibble.

Next, I know it's hinted at that Sephiroth is behind the Remnants and controlling their actions, but I would've liked to have seen him more in the movie instead of right at the very end. And then he does a 6 minutes battle with Cloud, beating the shit out of Cloud, but suddenly at the every end Cloud beats him. That's a bit of a 180 turn, and factors into my next rewrite.

Last big rewrite I can think of, is make the entire group participate in the battle with Sephiroth. I don't mind a part with him and Cloud doing a one-on-one, but I would love to have the group participate somehow in the beginning, you know? I mean they say they've lost the power they once had, but if Cloud can get it back, surely they could too? Instead of leaving the fate of the Planet only in Cloud's hands? I mean they all fought Sephiroth two years ago... would've been cool to see them all help out.
Also, seeing Sephiroth interact with them all individually, even if just a comment here and there, would be fun too.

Though maybe the last point is too much of a rehash of the game? All of them fighting Sephiroth again?

 

[Starling]

That's still a bit short. I'd give another month or two, have the game end in late February at earliest.

 

[Mayo Master]

That's still a bit short. I'd give another month or two, have the game end in late February at earliest.

And that's probably not considering how long it takes to breed several generations of chocobos

 

[Clement Rage]

Great. Okay, so they start putting Jenova cells in SOLDIER, the Nibelheim incident happens, and Hojo start putting Sephiroth cells into Zack because...?
No seriously, now things are just getting silly. Here you have a SOLDIER, injected with pure Jenova cells, showered in Mako, then locked up in a tank to be subjected to essentially what amounts to diluted Jenova cells from Sephiroth and more Mako showers...

For contrast? 'This convenient sample is what normally happens, where this is a different reaction. Now, can I determine what causes this difference?'

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'll only make a few points to wrap this up, so I'll skip the quote boxes and just go for a short (I failed) list:

-Hojo's quality
Hojo is variously described as "an inexperienced man assigned to take over the work of a great scientist" (Sephiroth), "a walking mass of complexes" (Sephiroth again) with "an utter lack of scientific talent compared to the genius of Dr. Gast" (Vincent says this in optional dialogue on the Highwind), "dull" (Rufus) and "a second-rate scientist" (Rufus again).

He also comes out in agreement with the "Hojo Sucks" Fanclub just before he dies, while speaking to Cloud:

"Every time I see you, I...
It pains me that I had so little scientific sense...
I evaluated you as a failed project.
But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone.
Heh, heh, heh...... I'm even beginning to hate myself."

And he also most certainly did random experiments just to see if they would work or what the results might be -- e.g. trying to breed Aerith with Red XIII to preserve both species, and doing the experiments on Vincent that made his body so durable without having any particular objective in mind (on this latter point, he even remarks in DC that it was ironic cause and effect that his experiments made Vincent's body capable of containing Chaos).

If you look at Before Crisis as well, there he implanted materia directly into people's bodies just to see if it would work.

The guy is basically a Nazi.

-When Cloud learned stuff about Jenova cells and mako
If you're requiring only things explicitly shown in the game to turn this into something other than a plothole, couldn't he have just put two and two together between a) Hojo saying he "created" Cloud with Jenova cells and mako (just before Meteor is cast), b) confirming he's a real person, and c) remembering stuff from his time in Hojo's lab and after (e.g. what he overheard from Zack)? All of that is explicit.

It's only even technically a plothole because we don't know the precise details of when and why he came to know it -- but there is plenty of reason for him to know, and more than enough for it not to stand out to us. Just like what Rufus was up to between leaving Costa del Sol in a helicopter and arriving in Rocket Town, seemingly on foot, is technically a plothole (where did the helicopter take him? why didn't one take him all the way to Rocket Town?) -- but also pretty inconsequential, if not irrelevant, and easily explained away or ignored without cheapening the story.

FFVII has enough genuinely problematic plotholes without worrying about stuff like this.

-SOLDIERs without Jenova
The original SOLDIERs (pre-Sephiroth) didn't have any, just mako. Not that odd since Deepground (which also existed pre-Sephiroth) has some SOLDIERs who lack the cells, and some who have them.

-Hojo injecting Zack, Cloud et. al. with Sephiroth's cells
This is stupid, yes. It's one of the Compilation's additions -- the original game simply had it that these were Jenova cells.

-Original game's story lasting 43 days @Force
Especially surprising since another week was spent between the fall of Shin-Ra and Meteorfall. That only leaves 29 days for everything else we see in the game.

Enough time for it all to happen, I guess, but still surprising.

 

[Clement Rage]

-Hojo's quality
Hojo is variously described as "an inexperienced man assigned to take over the work of a great scientist" (Sephiroth), "a walking mass of complexes" (Sephiroth again) with "an utter lack of scientific talent compared to the genius of Dr. Gast" (Vincent says this in optional dialogue on the Highwind), "dull" (Rufus) and "a second-rate scientist" (Rufus again).

He also comes out in agreement with the "Hojo Sucks" Fanclub just before he dies, while speaking to Cloud:

"Every time I see you, I...
It pains me that I had so little scientific sense...
I evaluated you as a failed project.
But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone.
Heh, heh, heh...... I'm even beginning to hate myself."

And he also most certainly did random experiments just to see if they would work or what the results might be -- e.g. trying to breed Aerith with Red XIII to preserve both species, and doing the experiments on Vincent that made his body so durable without having any particular objective in mind (on this latter point, he even remarks in DC that it was ironic cause and effect that his experiments made Vincent's body capable of containing Chaos).

If you look at Before Crisis as well, there he implanted materia directly into people's bodies just to see if it would work.

The guy is basically a Nazi.

I agree with most of the rest, but I'm not sure about this. Sephiroth and Vincent both have strong reasons to be biased against Hojo, and Rufus doesn't have a high opinion of anyone.

Hojo's project is clearly superior to both of Hollanders, and he's quick to understand things other people have done (He figures out what's going on in Th Northern Cave quicker than everyone else, seeing Chaos is enough for him to figure out how to put Lucrecia's theory into practice.) He successfully upgrades Zack in about ten seconds on a whim. And while he made some mistakes, he had a better understanding of the JENOVA reunion than anyone else had.

He's not nice, or ethical, but he's not just an idiot randomly following his whims either.

 

[Starling]

Don't forget the time it took to leave Midgar. The character profiles seem to expect everything up to meeting Cid to happen before January, if I recall.

 

[ForceStealer]

-Hojo injecting Zack, Cloud et. al. with Sephiroth's cells
This is stupid, yes. It's one of the Compilation's additions -- the original game simply had it that these were Jenova cells.

I thought this was the case, but I wasn't quite sure enough to bring it up.

 

[Tashasaurous]

He's not nice, or ethical, but he's not just an idiot randomly following his whims either.

I can say many things about Hojo. He's heartless, his heart was weak when it came to discovering things, lost in the darkness, he's cruel, through out the years of his life.

His obession with science and experiment things(possibly at grade school), eventually turned him so twisted and evil as he grew older to the point where he eventually came to care only about his experiments while no one else was interested, ignoring everyone.

Thus, because of this, I believe, he abandoned all life and believes that he is the only human in the world, that he is a god who can take control of the world behind everyone's backs, do whatever he wants to, and that every other living being, humans included, are nothing but toys and puppets he can experiment on to his own liking and can happily just kill anyone for his experiments, because as far as he's concerned, he is the only one with a soul, who can control people...

Even though he also has to avoid in getting caught or in trouble. That's why only three people, (the original President, Scarlett and Heidegger) like him, because everyone else, including both the Turks and Sephiroth, hate him, and I don't blame them, because I hate him too.

That's why he's the way he is...at least that's what I think, all the way to the point of hating himself, because of the fact the hates being a human as well.

So glad that he didn't appear or was even mentioned in AC/C.

 

[Roger]

Just to ask, you think that Jenova is always manipulating the back of someone's mind (subconscious) and that they can't do anything about it? I'm not quite sure.

No, I think it's obvious that Jenova does both. The point is that your strength of will, in terms of real world psychology, is only relevant to explicit and overt, and since a large part of Jenova's manipulation also happens sub-consciously and indeed Cloud essentially heading to the Reunion was entirely done sub-consciously, and Jenova even sub-consciously making ex-soldiers don black robes makes it a case of special pleading when you then state that their strength of will supposedly stopped them from joining the reunion.

After all, it's not like Cloud was overtly forced, against his will, to walk all the way up to the North crater.
Sure he was forced to raise his blade to Aerith and to hand over the black materia, but him walking all the way to the renuion happened without him knowing he was even being manipulated, and what I am saying is that the excuse that the Junon shop-keeper didn't do the same is because of his "strength of will" doesn't cut it in that context.

Jenova did both to Cloud, specifically to the false persona Cloud created using Jenova cells. Cloud, lacking the strong will required to become a SOLDIER, failed the test and got Mako poisoned for years, then ultimately created someone stronger then himself using Jenova. The pull Jenova has on that guy should not be a baseline for any SOLDIER that is just sound of mind in their own right and never had difficulties.

 

[Tennyo]

@Jenova's manipulation over SOLDIERS:

Perhaps it's something akin to the One Ring in LOTR? Some people are more strongly affected by the ring's powers than others.

 

[Kuja9001]

FFXIII has sequels because the first game was missing enough context to make more games out of it.

I think it was FFXIV bombing real hard that had a major factor.

 

[Tashasaurous]

FFXIII has sequels because the first game was missing enough context to make more games out of it.

I think it was FFXIV bombing real hard that had a major factor.

Mainly because FFXIV had techniquel and freezing problems in the first place. That's why they got rid of it and replaced it with A Realm Reborn and then some.

 

[hian]

Without delving back into the topic of psychology, I'll say this :
Some of you are fundamentally confused about the distinction between the conscious and unconscious mind, and what would distinguish manipulation of the two. It's worth reading up on, because it is interesting.

As for Hojo :
As I said - Hojo is without scruples - like some here said, much like a Nazi scientist.
Hojo is however also quite clearly capable of running a lab filled with equipment that only a person with the know-how would be able to use, and has enough knowledge about medical science and biology etc. to be plan and carry out experiments that while haphazardous and dodgy still provide him concrete results, I simply cannot help but feel that pinning anything inconvenient about the "science" of FFVII in relation to things that Hojo has had a finger in, on "Hojo's madness", is a short-hand for "can't be bothered to find a better explanation", or as a way of making excuses for bad writing (which is ironic when the excuse itself would be an example of bad writing).

Anyway, I'm not going to go on about this anymore because it's derailing from the discussion about the rewrite of AC into one of the original.

Instead, on a completely different note, I'd like to tentatively ask if anyone would actually be in on a community rewrite?
Been thinking about it for the last couple of days, and it keeps "demanding" attention from me to the point that it's interfering with my other work.
I was thinking something like a Visual Novel with a few game-play elements thrown in the mix (having the focus on writing, with music and stills added to the presentation and some simply game-play elements breaking up the reading)?

Spoiler: Click this for two concept screens I just threw together yesterday - I wasn't feeling to creative so I just tacked "versus" on the end. It was either that or "rewritten" or some other horrible tag-line

Nothing demanding (since I'd do most of the work), just if someone with real know-how about the franchise (looking at you Twilight) and maybe a modicum of design or writing skills whom could help shape the thing, or be there to bounce ideas off of, supply feedback etc.?

 

[Starling]

You know, it's not so much that Cloud was too weak to resist Jenova as well as anyone who made it into SOLDIER so much as the his mental state for the better part of the OG prevented him from resisting as well as he'd be able to otherwise. I mean, he could resist well enough not to kill Aerith himself and I've pointed out before that Sephiroth had to put actual effort into manipulating Cloud, making liberal use of normal psychological manipulation and only really using the Jenova based manipulation when Cloud is caught offguard.

We don't actually know the specific reason Cloud wasn't allowed into SOLDIER and it wouldn't be surprising if Cloud would've actually done fine as a SOLDIER if they let him join but simply failed to see his potential the way others seemed to overlook him, if the way he was treated in Nibelheim is any indication. There's also how the physical aspect of Jenova means a resistance to its effects probably only go so far regardless of strength of mind.

That Cloud could resist at all despite his issues should indicate he's not as weak minded as everyone keeps making him out to be, especially not compared to what the compilation keeps showing us of SOLDIER and similar groups.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Instead, on a completely different note, I'd like to tentatively ask if anyone would actually be in on a community rewrite?
Been thinking about it for the last couple of days, and it keeps "demanding" attention from me to the point that it's interfering with my other work.
I was thinking something like a Visual Novel with a few game-play elements thrown in the mix (having the focus on writing, with music and stills added to the presentation and some simply game-play elements breaking up the reading)?

Spoiler: Click this for two concept screens I just threw together yesterday - I wasn't feeling to creative so I just tacked "versus" on the end. It was either that or "rewritten" or some other horrible tag-line

Nothing demanding (since I'd do most of the work), just if someone with real know-how about the franchise (looking at you Twilight) and maybe a modicum of design or writing skills whom could help shape the thing, or be there to bounce ideas off of, supply feedback etc.?

I'd be up for at least some idea bouncing and back feeding. I don't have a lot of time right now for more than that.

The most important thing to establish first is what theme(s) are going to be at the heart of your re-write. I had those in mind from the start when Shademp and I worked on FFVII: For All Gaia’s Children.

 

[hian]

I'd be up for at least some idea bouncing and back feeding. I don't have a lot of time right now for more than that.

The most important thing to establish first is what theme(s) are going to be at the heart of your re-write. I had those in mind from the start when Shademp and I worked on FFVII: For All Gaia’s Children.

Great. I'll hit you up with a PM with what I've got thus far - thoughts on setting/state of the world, plot and characters.
I'm sorta lost on themes, because unlike most writers (and indeed people) as a moral and existential nihilist, I really don't have any themes I want to preach to people about, and it's pretty much the very opposite of who I am to do so.
I see stories more or less as having value in and of themselves as devices for carrying the audience away to foreign and interesting places/scenarios, even if they have no greater thematic significance to impart.

So, that will definitely be a place I might need some ideas. Currently, as we've already discussed, I think the plot should be close to 2 decades after the original, centered around the next generation of children born from people who were exposed to Jenova cells.
I'm toying with the idea that a group of these people might have made somewhat of a cult around the figure of Jenova due to the power "she's bestowed upon them" (and apart from the central cast of he original, most people wouldn't really know truth of the events leading up to the meteorfall and Jenova's true nature and role in the event), which I think would be good thematic transition from the original when you consider that "Jenova" is a derivation of "Jehova" I.E the Christian God as read by Jehova's Witnesses.

The plot would follow Cloud and Tifa's daughter, a person I've temporarily named "Jorda Lockheart" (because "Jorda" is Norwegian for the earth, which is similar to Aerith in meaning, and consistent with the Norse themes of the original game), who would be wielding the sword from the concept art. I'm drafting her as we speak (once I've finished tracing and the clean-up, I'll do some anti-aliasing, and apply colors etc. and then hopefully we'll have something that's consistent with the original art if nothing else).

But, at the moment, as I said, the greater theme/threat is pretty much up in the air.
I have the setting, the characters, and the beginning of a plot, but it lacks the driving force and climax of a proper story.

You know, it's not so much that Cloud was too weak to resist Jenova as well as anyone who made it into SOLDIER so much as the his mental state for the better part of the OG prevented him from resisting as well as he'd be able to otherwise. I mean, he could resist well enough not to kill Aerith himself and I've pointed out before that Sephiroth had to put actual effort into manipulating Cloud, making liberal use of normal psychological manipulation and only really using the Jenova based manipulation when Cloud is caught offguard.

We don't actually know the specific reason Cloud wasn't allowed into SOLDIER and it wouldn't be surprising if Cloud would've actually done fine as a SOLDIER if they let him join but simply failed to see his potential the way others seemed to overlook him, if the way he was treated in Nibelheim is any indication. There's also how the physical aspect of Jenova means a resistance to its effects probably only go so far regardless of strength of mind.

That Cloud could resist at all despite his issues should indicate he's not as weak minded as everyone keeps making him out to be, especially not compared to what the compilation keeps showing us of SOLDIER and similar groups.

I've always gotten the impression that Cloud not making it in Soldier was a specific narrative device playing into the "people are only strong when they fight for what they believe in/other people" trope that is so common in Japanese shonen media.

Cloud is clearly strong enough to do nearly impossible feats when he's doing it for the sake of other people (surviving the fall from Mt.Nibel searching for Tifa as a child with only a few scratches, or beating Sephiroth in the Nibelheim incident, or at the end of the game), whilst young Cloud joining Soldier was doing it purely out of self-interest.

So, I think it's strongly thematically implied that Cloud fails Soldier because he doesn't cut it, and the reason he doesn't cut it is because he can't realize his potential in pursuit of self-interest (which is an extremely typical Japanese way of thinking).

 

[Starling]

That justification seems insufficient for claiming Cloud is weak. Incidentally, he didn't join SOLDIER out of pure self-interest. He wanted to be strong enough to protect the people he cares about and thought joining SOLDIER would help with that. Besides, self-interest didn't stop all the less than moral Shinra employees from getting places.

 

[hian]

That justification seems insufficient for claiming Cloud is weak. Incidentally, he didn't join SOLDIER out of pure self-interest. He wanted to be strong enough to protect the people he cares about and thought joining SOLDIER would help with that. Besides, self-interest didn't stop all the less than moral Shinra employees from getting places.

I wasn't claiming Cloud is weak - in fact I said the exact opposite. Cloud is super strong, but only when he's motivated out of compassion for others.


You really think young Cloud's interest in "protecting people" had anything to do with actually compassion and not a young delinquent wanting to get into Tifa's miniskirt and show one up on the villagers he didn't like?


Finally comparing Cloud to other Shinra employees is completely inane in this context. The lesson isn't that "people can't join Shinra and Soldier out of self-interest", which they clearly can.
The lesson is "Cloud, who is the main character and probably the strongest character in the FF7 universe, can only bring out that power for the sake of other people" which furthers the theme of collectivism and solidarity which is common in Japan.
Ultimately, Shinra loses, and ultimately everyone who were in it only for their own sakes lost out in the end of the game.
Cloud not making it within that morally bankrupt and selfish system despite being stronger than the strongest of the soldiers within it is a moral statement on part of the writers.

 

[Starling]

Cloud is pretty much always motivated by that. It's only when his other issues get in the way that he really falters.

I have a hard time imagining an 8/9 year old kid would be thinking about getting into anyone's pants. Regardless of age it is, in fact, possible to care about someone and want to help them without even thinking about possibly having sex with them. Cloud consistently puts other people before him and is a very caring individual so I don't see why it'd be so hard to believe he isn't doing it just to get in Tifa's pants. There's so much more to their relationship than that.

Cloud tried to keep Tifa from falling, wasn't strong enough to keep her from falling and blamed himself for what happened because of that. All his guilt issues boil down to not being able to keep someone he cares about from getting hurt even when there's nothing more he could've done.

Cloud's main motivation for joining SOLDIER was to be strong enough to keep the incident with Tifa from happening again. Add to that the promise he made before leaving and he really did try to join SOLDIER for Tifa rather than himself.

Cloud not making it into SOLDIER because he has morals and Shinra doesn't would mean that Cloud didn't fail because he was weak, but rather because his strength wasn't noticed or valued. If you agree with that then we're on the same page.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You're both right. Part of Cloud's motivation was to prove himself, but he also wanted to be able to protect Tifa.

 

[Starling]

There's nothing selfish about wanting to prove yourself, especially if everyone around you keeps ignoring or putting you down. When you think about it, Cloud had to deal with a lot even before the Nibelheim incident to end up where he is by the end of the OG and ACC. It'd be nice to explore that kind of thing in more detail somehow.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's self-concerned at least, which not need be a bad thing the way "selfish" perhaps implies. Just saying it's different from concern for another.

 

[hian]

I have a hard time imagining an 8/9 year old kid would be thinking about getting into anyone's pants. Regardless of age it is, in fact, possible to care about someone and want to help them without even thinking about possibly having sex with them. Cloud consistently puts other people before him and is a very caring individual so I don't see why it'd be so hard to believe he isn't doing it just to get in Tifa's pants. There's so much more to their relationship than that.

Figure of speech my friend, figure of speech.
Point is that "protecting Tifa" is far from some sort of compassionate motivation when we're talking about a small boy in puppy-love and when the girl he dreams of "protecting" isn't in any type of danger what so ever.

Clearly, he's just in love with this girl, and tired of being looked down upon by the villagers and wants to impress them all by becoming a hero, which to most Japanese people, would not be a good reason for doing good works.
There's a difference between "I'm in love with this girl and want to impress her by becoming a hero so she'll like me back" and "I'm going to protect people because it's the right thing to do".
The former has some sort vision of pay-off for the person doing the act, the latter one does not - which is why only the latter is true heroism.

As for Cloud consistently putting people before himself - this is something we see Cloud do when he is free do to as he wants long after the time he dreamed of joining soldier - like when he saves Priscilla from the sea-monster at Junon harbor etc.
However, in Soldier he would not have had that freedom.

My point is that how can you expect a person who helps other people, and who's power obviously manifests itself at its strongest when friends are in peril in an environment where he would be constantly given orders to take part in an oppressive system?

Cloud tried to keep Tifa from falling, wasn't strong enough to keep her from falling and blamed himself for what happened because of that. All his guilt issues boil down to not being able to keep someone he cares about from getting hurt even when there's nothing more he could've done.

I don't see what relevance this has to the discussion. Also, if I'm not much mistaken, Cloud already dreamed of joining soldier before Tifa fell.

Cloud's main motivation for joining SOLDIER was to be strong enough to keep the incident with Tifa from happening again. Add to that the promise he made before leaving and he really did try to join SOLDIER for Tifa rather than himself.

This I think is a gross exaggeration. It was never stated nor strongly implied in the originals narrative - and even if it were it would still have to be taken with Cloud's explicit statement that he wants to prove himself in the eyes of the town etc. which sabotages the presumed selflessness of that act.

Cloud not making it into SOLDIER because he has morals and Shinra doesn't would mean that Cloud didn't fail because he was weak, but rather because his strength wasn't noticed or valued. If you agree with that then we're on the same page.

That's almost exactly the point I was trying to make - except that I would add that it isn't that his strength wasn't noticed and valued as much as it is that Cloud would not have been able to manifest or prove that strength in the environment of Soldier, since they'd never have him fight for things that actually matter to him.

Shinra was ultimately a greedy corporate structure whose armed forced only fought to strengthen their own political and economical power. Cloud is a person who deep down, can only really fight for things that truly matter (friends and loved ones).

 

[Roger]

Even after Aerith's death, falling into the Lifestream, having his conciousness explored by Tifa and all that, he still says that he is still partially motivated by his personal grudge against Sephiroth and he encourages everyone to leave and recall the personal reasons they all to be there beyond just saving the world. Cloud is never completely selfless.