Improve Crisis Core Thread

[Odysseus]

Following up on Cloudy's post a bit, the other thing that frustrates me about Crisis Core is how often it just steals set-pieces from the original game. Zack couldn't have met Aerith while on a mission in the slums, no, he HAD to also fall into the church from reactor five. The game HAD to also start on a train heading to Mako Reactor 1. Then there's less direct lifts that are still overly derivative; what is Genesis if not a shittier Sephiroth? Angeal just Zack's Zack? Genesis even seemingly dies in a reactor before coming back later, and Angeal dies while Zack grips the Buster sword and looks up to the sky. Some people see these things as cute callbacks, but I just see it as Crisis Core lacking an identity.

 

[Tetsujin]

Following up on Cloudy's post a bit, the other thing that frustrates me about Crisis Core is how often it just steals set-pieces from the original game. Zack couldn't have met Aerith while on a mission in the slums, no, he HAD to also fall into the church from reactor five. The game HAD to also start on a train heading to Mako Reactor 1.

Yep, the George Lucas school of prequelling.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

So... I've been reading through all the NPC dialogue (thank you @Shademp for extracting all of that!) and... a good chunk of the "added" stuff I have in this post actually is in the game. It's just... normal NPC dialogue that can be easily skipped over in a playthough. If your impression of CC is only from watching cutscenes, you'll miss all of it. Same if the playthough is trying to rush through the game to get it finished as soon as possible.

As for what is in the NPC dialouge... so much lore is there from the OG. Shinra is... as leaky as a sieve when it comes to a lot of "classified" info. I don't know what the Turks are doing, but they really should look into what SOLDIERs are actually talking about on break. Especially if it's the scientists in the SOLDIER Department (not the Science Department). Maybe it has to do with how all those scientists were deliberately transferred (or are thankful they got headhunted) out of the Science Department because they really don't like Hojo. You've got stuff like the rumored existence of the Black and White Materia (and what they do!), how what the Science Department thought was an Ancient actually wasn't, that SOLDIERs are injected with mako, that Hojo is the one to do the operation that makes people into SOLDIER. Humm.. what else... that Gast, Hollander, and Hojo were the ones heading up the Ancient studies program a while back, the Ancients knows how to talk to the Planet and control it's power, the Science Department was researching making SOLDIERs of their own and Gillian was working on that project. And... how Banora was funded entirely by Shinra. They're also definetly aware that Lazard was a sane boss compared to the likes of... basicly everyone else in power at Shinra.

Never mind that you've got scientists who are really angry with the Science Departmetn blabbing about Cetra Lore (that sounds... a lot like parts of the hologram in Remake) and what Hojo did to Ifalna (who is known to be the last surviving Cetra!) and how that justified them releasing a bunch of experiments all over Midgar in the hope they'd kill everyone of. And they're saying this in the Exhibit Hall that is filled with visitors to the Shinra Tower. No, I am not making that up.

You've also got scientists in the actual Science Department who think everyone in SOLDIER are the Science Department's puppets and are just meatheads (which... definetly isn't the case given the SOLDIER Company Grapevine).

Also, there's just... tons of dialog on the SOLDIER floor that shows Zack stepping into Angeal's shoes in the SOLDIER department and being the guy everyone goes to for reassurance no matter what their rank is. CC definetly was setting him up to be the heart of SOLDIER if Nibelehim hadn't happened.

Really, I don't know how Sephrioth never connected the dots about some of this stuff. Because he grew up in Shinra! To say he comes off as deliberately not wanting to think about this stuff is... an understatement. There are mentions of him being in the SOLDIER Records Room digging up the history of the science department... but given that people already know some of it (more like... a lot of the parts that actually matter), I don't know what he was expecting to find that he wouldn't already have gotten the chance to hear.

So yeah, something Crisis Core actually got right was... lots of worthwile NPC conversations when it comes to world-building. Which is often one of the first things anyone speed running the game skips...

 

[Clement Rage]

You'd think after the second time, Aeris would put up a net or something.

 

[ForceStealer]

As X observed many many years ago: Aerith clearly rigs her roof as a way to meet men.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It should be noted this isn't the first or second time someone has fallen through the Church Roof in front of Aerith. The First time is in BC when the Player Turks falls through... just in time to stop AVALANCHE from taking Aerith.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I figured Clement meant that "you'd think" there'd be a net up for Cloud

 

[waw]

I have a few differing opinions from everyone in that I really like Angeal and Genesis and the expansion of the Jenova project. I like that there are failed prototypes and it helps understand more about Jenova as an entity. I also like this vibe that Genesis sort of... chose... Minerva over Jenova. I think there's so much there worth exploring....

So improvements:
-More Cloud and Zack, probably working in the field together with Cloud showing some value and Zack some strong mentorship.
-More pre-insanity Sephiroth giving us nuance. Almost a compassionate side.
-Some issues with early Avalance a la Before Crisis.
-Some indication of Lost Force and Ragnarok. Look, I know that stuff is hidden, but Ragnarok wasn't a hidden unit from what I recall. Explaining the SOLDIER units and who led Ragnarok (and eventually lost to the Restrictors....)
-Zack being given some hard orders during the Wutai War, like innocents and stuff that Shinra would have to go after and trying to solve his way out of that.
-If we're keeping Genesis and this choice between Minerva and such, I think a closer relationship between him and Zack would be beneficial, like Zack choosing Sephiroth over Genesis or something and that helped make him go wonky.
-If we are talking about shifting Genesis's character in any way or replacing, we should look back at the girlfriend/sister role Aerith originally was marked for and fold Sephiroth out that way. Give him a "sister" or a "lover" that's quite mad after he "died."

From a gameplay perspective, there were too little towns to explore and real montonous action. Looking at later games like Jedi: Fallen Order, Sekiro, etc, it makes me feel really limited to just run around and battle as bluntly as we do. The models of what we fight are awfully limited and the Wutai are not fleshed out enough. (Like, why not a duel with Godo?)

In many ways the game is a weird pro-Shinra experience with honor of SOLDIER and all this. But their tasks weren't always honorable (well maybe they were and we just don't understand?). And now that we know characters like Roche exist, CC could get some serious expansion to flesh out other SOLDIERs.

Honestly, BC and CC just need repackaged as an old school Final Fantasy with Zack, Cissnei, and Lazard centering it. All get challenged by Shinra's nature in various ways and end up leaving the company anyway. (Kind of....)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Tseng should also centre it. And he should look like CC Tseng and have his voice actor.

 

[Torrie]

I have a few differing opinions from everyone in that I really like Angeal and Genesis and the expansion of the Jenova project. I like that there are failed prototypes and it helps understand more about Jenova as an entity. I also like this vibe that Genesis sort of... chose... Minerva over Jenova. I think there's so much there worth exploring....

If there was an updated CC with all the improvements you've described, it would be hands down one of my favourite games ever.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

-More pre-insanity Sephiroth giving us nuance. Almost a compassionate side.

-If we are talking about shifting Genesis's character in any way or replacing, we should look back at the girlfriend/sister role Aerith originally was marked for and fold Sephiroth out that way. Give him a "sister" or a "lover" that's quite mad after he "died."

Both of these are very much not there in Crisis Core at all. Even the JP version. In fact, reading the more literal fan translation of Crisis Core makes Sephrioth out to have... at very least some kind of superiority complex long before the Niblehim Incident. It's subtle, but it's certainly there.

It particularly comes out in the Sephrioth vs. Genesis and Angeal flashback where... Sephrioth is much more condescending of both Genesis and Angeal long before any of them left Shinra. Sephrioth is consistently portrayed in Crisis Core as knowing he's better than everyone else is and that just... feeds more into the decision he makes at Nibelehim. Other places it comes out are when Angeal deserts and Sephrioth immediately pegs him as being a traitor (and Angeal was supposed to be the one Sephrioth was closer to than Genesis). Or when Sephiroth is dismissive of Angeal's ideals and beliefs. He's clearly the dominant personality in his friendship with Genesis and Angeal.

The thing with Crisis Core is that... it paints Sephrioth as someone who always knew he was "special" compared to other people and everyone acknowledged that he was "special". And there's nothing more special he can be than being Jenova's loyal son.

One fun thing to do is compare Sane Sephrioth from Crisis Core with Griffith from Berserk's Golden Age Arc. Which... would have been running for seven years by the time FF7 was released, let alone Crisis Core. There's a lot of similarities between how they treat people they are supposed to be friends with... and I can't but help think that might have been intentional.

n many ways the game is a weird pro-Shinra experience with honor of SOLDIER and all this. But their tasks weren't always honorable (well maybe they were and we just don't understand?). And now that we know characters like Roche exist, CC could get some serious expansion to flesh out other SOLDIERs.

So... SOLDIER and SOLDIER Honor have... almost nothing to do with each other. Shinra didn't come up with the idea of "SOLDIER Honor". Angeal did (or rather, his dad did and Angeal believed in that ideal himself). And then he taught that ideal to the vast majority of people in SOLDIER. A major part of Crisis Core is the SOLDIER 1st Classes realizing that Shinra isn't honorable and leaving SOLDIER because of that fact. But all of them hold onto the ideal of SOLDIER Honor... except Sephrioth who never believed in that ideal in the first place.

By the time of the OG/Remake though... Angeal and Zack would have been thought to be dead for five years... and Hiddegar would have also been in control of SOLDIER. Which feels like long enough for certain ideals to have been forgotten. It's worth pointing out Roche could easily be a higher rank of SOLDIER, he just doesn't want the responsibility...

 

[waw]

Yes. I don't contest it comes from Angeal. But for all the talk about it, I imagine they do some awful stuff. Puppy Zack could really be nuanced by facing some of those hard decisions.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

This is when it's good to remember SOLDIER is the RP arm of Shinra's military. SOLDIER is the branch everyone wants to go in... so they are portrayed as being noble in Shinra's propaganda. They probably don't get the really nasty stuff on purpose, as Shinra wants SOLDIERs to think they are doing something good so they can get more people to join with Shinra's military.

Only... based on what we know of how hard it is to get into SOLDIER, not everyone does. Those people probably go into the main Security Forces under Heideggar. Which is probably where the nastier stuff happens since those guys aren't being made to look good. For the even worse stuff, they've got Deepground, many of whom were SOLDIERs who were transferred there after they were injured and no one in Deepground has any choice in what they do at all.

And then there's the Turks, who are very much aware they do all kinds of nasty stuff and almost seem to use that reputation to make sure no one takes a good look at what they are doing that might not actually be in Shinra's best interest. The fact of the matter is, Shinra has a lot of people around who will do their dirty work and not (more like can't) make a fuss about it other than SOLDIER. And it is very useful to Shinra to have SOLDIER be the resident Paragons. Problem for Shinra is when the Paragons actually believe they are Paragons for real and find out about all the nasty stuff going on at Shinra and start making problems for Shinra.

Interestingly, Zack interacts with the Turks more than he does with Sephrioth in Crisis Core. He knows better than most people about the nasty stuff Shinra gets up too. But he himself isn't really doing any of it until Shinra wants him to bring Genesis and Angeal in. Or rather, Shinra would like Sephrioth to do that, but Sephrioth is a high enough rank he can refuse and make it Someone Else's Problem. And the "Someone Else" is Zack. Which kinda puts him on a trajectory of finding out about all kinds of not moral stuff Shinra is up too (the conversations Zack has with NPCs are not about how Shinra is all sunshine and rainbows!). Only, Zack (and Sephiroth even) go do the Nibelehim Mission before either of them can really make any decisions about Shinra. And then they've got bigger issues to worry about...

The other thing is that... Shinra owns the world functionally. Even if Zack does have to make "hard decisions" (which I'd argue he is absolutly making in Crisis Core... esspecially after Angeal makes Zack kill him)... what is he really going to do about it? He knows AVALANCHE is as bad as Shinra is already (if not worse... AVALANCHE is the one kidnapping SOLDIERs and turning them into actual monsters). Wutai... heh... Zack is the one who won the final victory against Wutai for Shinra and never got any credit for it... Going it alone against Shinra? Genesis and a bunch of SOLDIERs and security personal tried that already and Zack helped Shinra beat them. Fighting directly against Shinra has never worked in Zack's experience. And... it doesn't. What really changes Shinra is when Rufus takes over who has always had a very different set of priorities than his dad... and most of his dad's upper management.

Meahwhile... SOLDIER is probably the least worst Shinra department to end up in, especially after the Wutai War. There are legitimate threats against normal people in the form of AVALACHE, monsters, Genesis Copies, etc. and it's primarily SOLDIER's job to deal with those (since the non-enhanced security forces can't). There's a tangable difference SOLDIER is making in people's lives that isn't all bad. There's also the difference Zack is making in other SOLDIER and Shinra personal's lives by being there and reminding them that... they don't have to be bad people (at least, all the time). There's a bunch of NPC conversations that compare what Zack is to SOLDIER to what Angeal and Genesis were to SOLDIER in the latter half of Crisis Core (not to what Sephiroth is to SOLDIER personal, interestingly enough). Which is... being the one everyone else talks their problems over with and essentially... Zack is SOLDIER's moral compass (and in some ways, he even does the same for the Turks... reminding them that... it feels good to help people). Zack staying in Shinra's super-soldier program is... honestly something to change how the people working in Shinra think about what they are doing... and why they are doing it. Which is desperately needed if Shinra is ever going to change.

It has always been a constant theme of FF7 that not everyone working for Shinra are bad people (in fact, i'd say most of them aren't)... and Zack is the poster child of that idea.

 

[waw]

And it is very useful to Shinra to have SOLDIER be the resident Paragons. Problem for Shinra is when the Paragons actually believe they are Paragons for real and find out about all the nasty stuff going on at Shinra and start making problems for Shinra.

Just going to drop this here: This is why it's so sad that we don't see the Ragnarok Rebellion against Deepground and SOLDIER. It's that exact moment when a mass number of SOLDIERs reject the dark heart of Shinra.

 

[Clement Rage]

Pretty ambitious for a PSP game.

 

[waw]

Pretty ambitious for a PSP game.

It is, any improvements to CC are ambitious for a PSP game because it's already a top tier PSP game!

I assumed this would be a port

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just going to drop this here: This is why it's so sad that we don't see the Ragnarok Rebellion against Deepground and SOLDIER. It's that exact moment when a mass number of SOLDIERs reject the dark heart of Shinra.

We aren't really given much insight into their reasoning for walking into an expected trap in Mako Reactor 0 (they received orders to go), other than the possibility that they were tired of the petty jockeying going on in SOLDIER. We know they weren't expecting what they ran into down there, though (i.e. a unit comprised of only four SOLDIERs that could butcher a much larger force that had been considered invincible).

 

[cold_spirit]

I've been ruminating about this thread for a bit and I gotta say it's made me appreciate Crisis Core a bit more. Two points made by @Obsidian Fire have stuck with me: the importance of NPC dialogue in bridging the gap between chapters and the consistent nature of Jenova's abilities throughout the story.

Considering the popularity of Zack, it would appear the main story cutscenes were effective enough to convey the character drama. All of the other "nitty-gritty" information (i.e. the stuff our community finds interesting) is mostly there in optional dialogue. If nothing else it's efficient, which makes sense considering Crisis Core is a portable spin-off game. Perhaps if Crisis Core was a full-fledged console release we'd see more of the story fleshed out, but alas.

As for Jenova's abilities, I have to give Nojima some credit, he does appear to keep the internal workings consistent. Yet he's equally unafraid to try new things. A villain obsessed with LOVELESS and the examination of SOLDIER honor may not of been what I would've had in mind for a prequel to FFVII, but it is different. Nojima clearly has no issue pushing the boundary of what the world and cast of FFVII can convey thematically, much to the discomfort of fans (see also: Remake lol).

Perhaps part of what made Crisis Core so dissatisfying to me for so many years is that it was the Compilation's last big offering. Advent Children Complete may have been the finale, bringing the Compilation full circle with additional Zack scenes, but it was still only a re-release. Crisis Core brings the story back to the OG. However, it felt off. It tries to be this sort of origin story for Genesis, a character that ultimately goes nowhere. Now that Remake is out it feels like we can finally move past Crisis Core. It's no longer positioned as the last big FFVII release, but instead as a side story. This feels wholly more appropriate.

I still have a lot of issues. Like, a lot a lot. But perhaps with this new appreciation I'd find myself enjoying a playthrough of Crisis Core. Too bad I don't have access to it!

 

[ForceStealer]

If nothing else, it does look very nice emulated on PPSSPP

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I still have my PSP and it still works.
And I still think it is the most beautiful handheld device ever.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Perhaps part of what made Crisis Core so dissatisfying to me for so many years is that it was the Compilation's last big offering. Advent Children Complete may have been the finale, bringing the Compilation full circle with additional Zack scenes, but it was still only a re-release. Crisis Core brings the story back to the OG. However, it felt off. It tries to be this sort of origin story for Genesis, a character that ultimately goes nowhere. Now that Remake is out it feels like we can finally move past Crisis Core. It's no longer positioned as the last big FFVII release, but instead as a side story. This feels wholly more appropriate.

I think you may have helped me figure out my own feelings about it there.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

As for Jenova's abilities, I have to give Nojima some credit, he does appear to keep the internal workings consistent. Yet he's equally unafraid to try new things. A villain obsessed with LOVELESS and the examination of SOLDIER honor may not of been what I would've had in mind for a prequel to FFVII, but it is different. Nojima clearly has no issue pushing the boundary of what the world and cast of FFVII can convey thematically, much to the discomfort of fans (see also: Remake lol).

This is what has me looking at Remake, the OG, and how much story we have left to get through in the rest of the Remake series and being like... "there's no way this is sticking to the OG for the entire thing". Nojima... doesn't like doing boring writing... and sticking too closely to the OG sounds like NKN find it boring from various interviews about the Remake dev process.

On the flip-side, I'm not quite sure how much people actually want Nojima to not be board. Given that... that's how we got Genesis to begin with... or you know... Zack not dying at his last stand in Remake due to Time-Traveling ghosts... I really have to wonder how much more stuff like that there will be going forwards.