Improve Crisis Core Thread

[Obsidian Fire]

When I say "go crazy" from degredation... it's right in the CC Keyword Guide that degradation causes the people with it bodys to break down in a variety of ways. From their immune system shutting down to the skin and muscle tissue wasting away. And that the people with degredation's mental faculties break down as well. Specifically along the lines of not being able to restrain themselves from violent outbursts. Whatever hold Genesis and Angeal had on their tempers before they had degradation... pretty much would have become non-existent as their degradation worsened. And both of them have a number of legitimate things to get mad at. They just wouldn't have a mental fuse/safety catch to keep them from acting on that anger.

Which... is pretty much what we see happen over the course of CC. The longer CC goes on, the harder and harder it is to reason with either Genesis or Angeal and the more and more violently they react to things. And after Genesis does get his degredation fixed, he does... almost a compete 180 in how he talks with Zack. It's... honestly the least combative we've seen him be the entire game.

 

[Cae Lumis]

When I say "go crazy" from degredation... it's right in the CC Keyword Guide that degradation causes the people with it bodys to break down in a variety of ways. From their immune system shutting down to the skin and muscle tissue wasting away. And that the people with degredation's mental faculties break down as well. Specifically along the lines of not being able to restrain themselves from violent outbursts. Whatever hold Genesis and Angeal had on their tempers before they had degradation... pretty much would have become non-existent as their degradation worsened. And both of them have a number of legitimate things to get mad at. They just wouldn't have a mental fuse/safety catch to keep them from acting on that anger.

Which... is pretty much what we see happen over the course of CC. The longer CC goes on, the harder and harder it is to reason with either Genesis or Angeal and the more and more violently they react to things. And after Genesis does get his degredation fixed, he does... almost a compete 180 in how he talks with Zack. It's... honestly the least combative we've seen him be the entire game.

Which I think segues nicely to how I would fix Crisis Core... and in the simplest way possible, all one would really need to do is not make it be a PSP Game. In outline, worldbuilding, and explanation, Crisis Core makes plenty of sense why things are the way they are. However, because its a PSP Game with Hours of Side Missions and Advent Children Quality Cutscenes on top of the many in-engine cutscenes it already has... so much of the information was either cut down to the thinnest it could be delivered or just removed entirely for the Ultimania's to explain instead. In a visual and interactive medium... this is Crisis Core's biggest weakness.

So... logically, an improved Crisis Core would have been a full-length Final Fantasy PS3 title, and given the marketing as a full prequel to Final Fantasy VII, rather than as the trailers and marketing at the time making it feel more like an optional side-story. By making Crisis Core a Full-Length title, you could expand the story of Crisis Core in numerous ways. More flashbacks with Genesis back before his injury to provide better contrast with his characterization as a slowly growing desperate anti-villain, more time with Angeal before his defection to make us care about him questioning his humanity before cracking and begging Zack to destroy him, more time showing how chaotic VII's world was right after the Wutai War due to Wutai Remnants along with Avalanche and Genesis' Rebel Forces all vying for their own reasons to bring Shinra down... and especially more time to explore how all these characters connect with one another. Time was a precious luxury in the PSP title due to how much limited space the UMD Disc had... when in a story like Crisis Core... the story needed more time to show you what it wanted to get across.

I hope... this rambly mess made sense.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm not questioning whether what you say about Jenova's effect on G-SOLDIERS is canon. What I'm saying is that if I have to read a guide in order to understand that Angeal and Genesis are being controlled by Jenova and not acting from a purely human combination of outrage, anger, bitterness and despair, then the game writers haven't done a very good job.

The relevant section of the keywords translation states, "Furthermore, the subject loses their ability to restrain themselves from giving in to brutal outbursts, which can temporarily raise their skills in combat, but they run the risk of eventually devolving into monsters." As you can see, these "brutal outbursts" are specifically connected to their actions while in combat mode, and not to their decision-making processes generally. Moreover, the "brutal outbursts" are a direct result not of Jenova driving them mad, but of the general degradation of their physical matter, neurons included, I guess - which in turn is "is due to an imperfect integration of Jenova cells into their bodies."

Degradation and its accompanying dementia is specified as a flaw of the G-SOLDIERS and their clones. Sephiroth would therefore be excluded, as would Zack and Cloud.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not questioning whether what you say about Jenova's effect on G-SOLDIERS is canon. What I'm saying is that if I have to read a guide in order to understand that Angeal and Genesis are being controlled by Jenova and not acting from a purely human combination of outrage, anger, bitterness and despair, then the game writers haven't done a very good job.

How in the world is suddenly murdering your parents, an entire village and replacing them with imposters made up of subordinates of your previous employment, who are now mind controlled and wearing your face forever, a normal human reaction?

That guidebook does not need to tell you everything Genesis is doing is completely abnormal, and it only gets worst the greyer and flakier his skin gets.

Everything he was doing spoke to a man who was on the fringes of sanity. Including his belief that re-enacting a play would somehow make him better. It only happened to work by accident.

The fact Genesis' rage and insanity mirrors Sephiroth's is only another "Hmmm...." moment to draw you to the conclusion of what happens when you make babies using The Thing's cells. They're all part of the Jenova Project. They all act weird upon knowing the truth. They all act destructive and dangerous. That's a structurally obvious indicator of abnormality between all of them since they carry alien genes/cells among them.

Degradation and its accompanying dementia is specified as a flaw of the G-SOLDIERS and their clones. Sephiroth would therefore be excluded, as would Zack and Cloud.

Sephiroth and S-series SOLDIERs don't degrade or exhibit those symptoms. That doesn't mean Jenova cells don't have an effect on the mind. Sephiroth's madness clearly shows that. Jenova is a destructive and murderous alien organism. Sephiroth clearly inherited it's instincts.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think Clem already covered that.

Anyway - first of all, I'm playing a video game. With magic. And monsters. And summons. The parameters aren't the same and I can't read the characters' actions in the same way that I would if they were acting in our world. If Genesis were in our world, then maybe his actions could be interpreted as insane, but even then, to me that's a bit like the argument which would effectively rule every single murderer as not criminally responsible. Just because someone is evil, it doesn't mean they're crazy.

He didn't slaughter his parents randomly for no reason. They lied to him about the most essential aspects of his being. Once a glorious superhero, he is now sentenced to die a slow, ugly, degrading and painful death. I'm not saying that slaughtering his parents and their village of Shinra apparatchiks was a morally justifiable act. But you can understand why he did it and why it felt satisfying. He wasn't being puppetted by Jenova.

Genesis might be a narcissist, or even a psychopath, but he's not insane. Abnormal is not insane. Obviously, nothing about the three products of the Projects G and S is normal. They're not supposed to be normal.

Also, Genesis didn't replace the villagers of Banora with imposters. He killed everyone except Angeal's mum, then moved his clone factory into the old apple processing warehouse. The clones never pretend to be villagers.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Genesis' parents basically didn't tell him he was adopted. They loved, spoiled and treated them like their own child. He came from a loving, wealthy household where he was able to pursue his hobbies and pursue his dream.

He returned their kindness with murder. Not just murder but murder that then spread to an entire village. He responded like a sociopath. And he was never a violent sociopath before. Something dark awakened in Genesis. Something inhuman.

Notice how Angeal didn't respond to the discovery of his unique birth with bloodlust and murder. Yes he felt distraught and all of those things. But not homicidal.

He didn't slaughter his parents randomly for no reason. They lied to him about the most essential aspects of his being. Once a glorious superhero, he is now sentenced to die a slow, ugly, degrading and painful death.

That wasn't his parents' fault. Yes, the target of his ire would be the mad scientists of Shinra who did that to him, not the people who loved him and had zero idea. Randoms assigned to care for him wouldn't have even known that. They were simply his adopted parents. He literally killed them for no reason. That's not normal or understandable no matter how you slice it unless you remember...

He's a product of the Jenova Project. Who else responded with indiscriminate homicidal violence while screaming about "betrayal" upon learning the truth of their creation and sprouts a single black wing?

You literally have the precedent of only people who are gene spliced with murderous alien DNA, going on indiscriminate spree kills that raze entire towns and it's citizens. That's not a coincidence.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It's... painfully obvious to the point of being heavy handed that Genesis and Sephrioth are foils when it comes to how they react to finding out their origins. Both go on indiscriminate murder sprees, both end up falling into the Lifestream, both end up searching out something of the Planet to further their own goals... the similarities go on and on.

The big difference is... one of them jumps at the chance to be "not normal" once they find a semi-plausable "why". Even when the first "why" they find isn't actually correct! The other wants to know the correct "why" of why they aren't normal so they can go back to being "normal". And that character is arguably... less rational... than the other character is! On a fundamental level, Sephrioth doesn't want to be "cleansed" from Jenova's influence. Genesis is obsessed with being "cleansed" from her influence, so when someone tries to save him, he doesn't ignore the opportunity (heck, he's been trying to make opportunities for the entire game).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

How was this player supposed to know that Genesis' parents had zero idea of who, or what, they were raising? Where in the game does it tell me that? Where does it say, "He was their beloved darling whom they spoiled and doted upon"? His father was the Mayor of the town. Banora was a town Shinra built to house its experiments. Genesis was adamant his "parents" betrayed him. Maybe Mr Rhapsodos (and his wife) did know, and maybe the entire reason they were so rich and important was because they were overseeing the project for Shinra. The game doesn't say they were, but it doesn't say they weren't, either.

Is this what I think actually happened? Of course not; there is no "what really happened" because the game doesn't tell us. We have to use our imagination to infer from limited evidence, which is open to interpretation either way.

The point I keep trying to make is that I did not come away from playing Crisis Core thinking, "Wow, poor Genesis and Angeal, the Jenova influence in their DNA drove them certifiably insane and made them do all sorts of terrible things." If that's what I was supposed to think, then the writers did a bad job. I started playing Crisis Core right after watching Advent Children; before watching AC I knew nothing about Final Fantasy VII, I'd never even heard of it, and that single viewing of AC is all the prior knowledge I brought to my understanding of Crisis Core. Obviously someone who's deeply steeped in the lore is going to have a different reading from someone who knows very little.

This argument is all kind of pointless, since I can't go back into the past and alter the understanding I had then of the characters in the game. I don't think I'll ever change my mind about Genesis; he has way more agency than some people are giving him credit for, and to me he seems more like a fundamentally bad person than a good person driven mad by the alien influence whispering inside his head. He was given great power and he used it for evil because he felt bitter and betrayed, and he never once expressed the slightest regret about all the terrible crimes he committed. All he ever did was feel sorry for himself. That's on him. Angeal reacted differently because he was a better human being to start with.

Actually probably the single most annoying thing in the whole of Crisis Core is that Genesis's obsession with Loveless and his single-minded pursuit of the goddess in hopes of a cure turned out to be just the ticket. He found her. She cured him. I have no idea what to make of that. Anyone less deserving of a cure than Genesis would be hard to imagine. Too bad she couldn't have found and cured Sephiroth too. Maybe Banora's just too far away from the Northern Crater.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You learn about Genesis' parents from dialogue with Angeal, his fanclub and reading Genesis' own little scrapbook-thing in the Banora underground.

Yes, Shinra built the town and populated it with it's employees, but what does that have to do with Genesis' actual childhood? That didn't prevent him from having a happy experience growing up where he could plant all the unique types of apples and horticulture shit he wanted, enter contests, play with Angeal, and do whatever he wanted. His life never lacked for anything, he was honestly spoiled. To try and say he somehow had a terrible life because of his association with Shinra is false. He's not Sephiroth. He had a normal life, albeit one that was connected to Shinra. But he wasn't betrayed by his parents; he was betrayed by Shinra's scientist who made him through the Jenova Project. How does Angeal have the common sense to delineate the two, but not Genesis? And Genesis never had a homicidal streak at all, he just magically gained one from one revelation that's wholly unconnected to his childhood. If anything, Angeal had more reason to want to kill Hollander and Gillian, his parents who were active members and participants of the Jenova Project but he didn't. Yet Genesis ended up murdering Shinra employees who were not even apart of the project and actually did love and give him a loving home.

Again, the info is in the game and I don't know how you specifically missed it. However, missing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Especially since the writer's illustrated this point with Jenova and it's corrosive influence on people like Sephiroth, Copies, and SOLDIER time and time again. Sephiroth's destructive instincts and impulses are connected to the extraterrestrial entity that carries an instinctual drive to murder and destroy other lifeforms and planets. Those who carry its cells can fall under it's influence. Even when they're technically not being puppeted. That's just how it is. Genesis does have agency over his actions, however he also fell under influence of Jenova just like Sephiroth did. Sephiroth, who has supreme agency over himself AND Jenova, yet fell under the destructive impulses/instincts that exist within it's cells. They're Jenova Project foils. Being spliced with alien DNA from a creature that's born and bred to kill will naturally create homicidal impulses and a disregard for life. That's part of being a freak science experiment. They're not fully human.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Like... honestly a lot of good games... CC doesn't tell the entire story in the "main scenario" script. It's there in company e-mails Zack gets. The reactions he has to various texts he picks up in the world. The DWM memoires. In the dialouge that is part of the "normal" gameplay and not the cutscenes. The stories behind the missions he goes on. There's... honestly a ton of text about the normal operations of SOLDIER and different Shinra departments in CC that's mainly accessed through the menu. Most of the "setting the feeling of what the status quo is" stuff isn't in the "main scenario" at all.

If you were to ask me were some of the best "world-building" happens in CC it's... in the e-mails. What type of mail goes around the SOLDIER department, how Lazard presented himself, who was comfortable emailing Zack, what Shin-Ra's official announcements look like (and how some people know they're fake!), what people are noticing Sephrioth is doing durring this time (reading up on Project G as it turns out... I'm still wondering how he could have found that but no hint of any Project S stuff or mention of Jenova....), the kind of news non-Shinra affiliated reporters are looking into (yes, they do exist apparently), what the SOLDIER fan-clubs are like (having access to a crazy ammount of personal details)... it's a fantastic microcosm for what working for Shinra looks like from the inside. Which wasn't something we were ever going to get in the OG.

Also, having to rely on an Ultimania to figure out all the fine plot details of a Final Fantasy game has been a decade-long thing by the time CC came out. If we're going to have issues with CC not telling it's story well and putting a bunch of key character motivations outside of the game... The OG, Advent Children, and DoC were all doing this long before CC came out. The Remake has it even worse in some respects with not one, but two Ultimanias that are almost required to figure out what the heck was going on in the last chapter of the game. To say that a game's story is bad because you need something else other than the game to understand it... this just feels like the wrong game series to be complaining about that now. And for one particular game, but not the other games in the series. Like... I seriously do think it's a weakness of FF games to heavily rely on the Utimanias... just... that feels like a series-wide discussion to be had, not something to knock just one game for.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Makoeyes987
It's like you're insisting on trying to force Lic into a conversation other than the one she's made clear several times now is the one she's participating in. She's talking about the piss-poor presentation of the narrative, which does diddly squat to contrast Genesis pre-discovery with Genesis post-discovery.

The only flashback of him pre-discovery (VR room) and quotes attributed to him pre-discovery (fanclub e-mails and news clipping) give the impression of a petty narcissist consumed with glory since childhood and bitter with envy in adulthood -- and the presentation of him post-discovery only doubles down on that impression. You really are left with a sense of confusion as to why anyone would have ever thought they were actually friends with this sociopath (a question Sephiroth voices aloud in the story as it's presented!), or why they would have even wanted to be.

There is no sense offered that this was a fundamentally decent and reasonable person whose actions have been warped to the opposite by circumstances beyond his own clear-headed decision-making. Angeal, too, comes off as an insincere and vapid figure, who -- despite grandiose posturing and pretty speechmaking -- immediately abandons his supposed ideals, instead being someone just as consumed with status as Genesis in the sense of where a person comes from/the circumstances of birth.

Of the three Jenova toddlers, Sephiroth is ironically the only one to be presented as possibly experiencing an outside influence on his psychology when he clutches his head and stumbles a bit in the Nibel reactor, and then soon after goes from the calm, measured figure we've seen several times prior to a manic, deranged sadist.

Yet as far as the full scope of canon goes, Genesis and Angeal were probably more mentally deteriorated than Sephiroth.

The pooch of the story was screwed. The presentation of the narrative is a fucking mess that makes BC look really clean and tight. There are a couple thematic gems to be dug out of CC if you try hard enough, but you will dig through a mile of shit before you get there.

Also, having to rely on an Ultimania to figure out all the fine plot details of a Final Fantasy game has been a decade-long thing by the time CC came out.

We're not talking about fine plot details, though, so much as basic character personalities. Typically, FF excels at making those shine through while the plots can be a little hazy.

The name of the Fusion spell from FFIX's plot never comes up in the game itself, nor does the precise mechanics of what Terra and Gaia merging would have involved -- but you don't really have to know about any of that in contemplating whether you have a solid assessment of Zidane's personality and motivations.

Furthermore Hojo himself has become unglued and obsessed with it thanks to his proximity to it.

It has nothing to do with Remake TBH, Remake just confirms what we were already seeing. It has everything to do with the OG and Crisis Core and actually paying attention to what people are saying and how they react to things.

I'll grant that the Compilation was actually making clear Jenova's potential for psychological deterioration even before CC. In DoC, Hojo's copy says "I attempted to perfect my body for Omega by injecting myself with Jenova's cells. However, that didn't go as I had planned. I failed to consider the fact that the cells might try to take over my mind and eat away at my soul."

(Which implies you're incorrect on that specific point, by the way, Mako: Hojo didn't go crazy from just being around Jenova. It wasn't until he injected himself with the crap that he lost himself.)

But even if someone were familiar with this from DoC before going into CC, we're also talking about an adult with an established personality injecting himself with the alien psycho cells, pretty much immediately going crazy -- and us getting to observe the before and after. A tad different a context from a grown human-alien hybrid who has already been synthesized with the alien matter since conception, and therefore has been walking around for 20+ years with an established personality (that we barely got to see) before supposedly suddenly going off to crazy town -- even though crazy town for him just looks like more of the same behavior that was there prior to crazy town.

Let's call a spade a spade: the canon is what it is, but the presentation of the subject belongs to a drastically different plot.

There is no hypocrisy.

They're trying to kill you.

Considering Zack specifically makes it a point to not kill his opponents, even Wutai soldiers who dedicated their lives to his destruction, the fact Zack fights for his life at the bitter end makes perfect sense.

Considering it's the company he gave his life to, trying to end his and Cloud's life. There's zero hypocrisy killing in self defense the goons who are trying to take your freedom and life after already losing 4 years as is.

Zack has no fucking reason to justify wanting to be free. He's a human being, he's not a Test Sample. It's why Cissnei didn't need to be reasoned with, or whatever Turk he met on the way. They knew the order was wrong from the start and chose to let him live and they eventually defect. Because they're human. As if talking to a gauntlet of soldiers with guns drawn, backed up with attack helicopters would have made any difference. LOL they were there for one and one reason only.

Whoever they are is not Zack's problem. He's literally fighting for his life. He cannot be responsible for his life, Cloud's life and the lives of his would be executioners. That's some moralistic nonsense run amok. The entire perspective is skewed backwards. You blame Shinra for throwing red shirt MPs into a SOLDIER 1C meat grinder, not the SOLDIER who's a victim of human experimentation for 4 years fighting to save his veggie-brained best friend and fighting for his life to not die or become a black cloaked zombie.

Not that I think Zack has to justify fighting to the death either, but it's equally off base to justify his lack of need-to-justify by implying the red shirts had all that information you laid out there. =P

Angeal and Genesis grew wings. It's not like they can just go back to work as though nothing happened.

They can manifest and de-manifest the wings at will.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The only flashback of him pre-discovery (VR room) and quotes attributed to him pre-discovery (fanclub e-mails and news clipping) give the impression of a petty narcissist consumed with glory since childhood and bitter with envy in adulthood -- and the presentation of him post-discovery only doubles down on that impression. You really are left with a sense of confusion as to why anyone would have ever thought they were actually friends with this sociopath (a question Sephiroth voices aloud in the story as it's presented!), or why they would have even wanted to be.

But that's not Genesis' true feelings from childhood. He only became that petty after joining SOLDIER. His bitter rivalry stemmed from his innocent desire to be friends with Sephiroth becoming warped. Whatever changed in him from childhood to adulthood happened after he moved from Banora to Midgar to join SOLDIER.

There is no sense offered that this was a fundamentally decent and reasonable person whose actions have been warped to the opposite by circumstances beyond his own clear-headed decision-making. Angeal, too, comes off as an insincere and vapid figure, who -- despite grandiose posturing and pretty speechmaking -- immediately abandons his supposed ideals, instead being someone just as consumed with status as Genesis in the sense of where a person comes from/the circumstances of birth.

There's nothing at all indicating he's a murderous sociopath either. Being a dick isn't equitable to being a murderous monster who'd go on a rampage that would consume even his own parents. He's as reasonable as the other colorful cast of FFVII characters who have their own idiosyncrasies and quirks of personality. Genesis suddenly went rogue against his loved ones after a training accident which lead to the discovery of the "truth" of his birth. He pulls a face-heel turn that results in a rampage.

And Angeal is hardly insincere. If anything he's sincere to a fault, there's nothing duplicitous about him. Having a code doesn't make one consumed with status. His own ideology of wanting to defend the world and retain his honor leads him to a conclusion where the only way to reconcile his own existence and ideals was with his own death. He didn't abandon his ideals, he was consumed by them. Consumed by his own rigid ideology and desire to hold onto his "honor." It's no different than a samurai who experienced great dishonor and feels forced to commit seppuku in order to retain his honored identity and end his existence with his perceived reputation in tact. Angeal did not want to be a monster and manipulated by Shinra and other forces to go against what he believed in. He was in absolute despair and thought death was the only way out because he couldn't bring himself to turn against his company, but he couldn't accept being a genetic weapon freak or used to hurt other people. The only problem is he forced Zack to do the deed for him, but at the same time, he passed all he had onto him. And despite it all, Zack was able to understand that. He didn't resent him for it.

The pooch of the story was screwed. The presentation of the narrative is a fucking mess that makes BC look really clean and tight. There are a couple thematic gems to be dug out of CC if you try hard enough, but you will dig through a mile of shit before you get there.

LOL it really wasn't though. Especially compared to BC. I really don't get how people say the story was so shredded when it tells it's narrative tightly within the confines of a portable game. Aside from early 2000s S-E Kingdom Hearts-esque direction and canon minutiae that gets tangled up in the decades long threads of FFVII lore, it tells what it's meant to tell with it's overall themes in tact. The tragic story of Zack and SOLDIER pawns discovering what they are, and then dying. It's held up as one of the best PSP games for that reason and it's why Zack has a literal cemented lock in FF popularity. Thanks to Crisis Core's screwed up story. I mean, if it's an example of a horribly screwed story, then S-E fired Tabata because they feared what he'd do with a perfect one.

(Which implies you're incorrect on that specific point, by the way, Mako: Hojo didn't go crazy from just being around Jenova. It wasn't until he injected himself with the crap that he lost himself.)

There was something in the Remake or it's accompanying lore that stated that Hojo's unraveling sanity may have been the result of Jenova's continued presence around him. I could've sworn I heard and read that somewhere... Maybe it was just that FFVII-R Ultimania description of Jenova and me extrapolating and combining it with what he said in DC.

 

[Odysseus]

Maybe the real crisis was the cores we made along the way

 

[cold_spirit]

Like @LicoriceAllsorts, I was never given the impression from Crisis Core itself that Genesis and Angeal had some kind of mind altering reaction when discovering their origin due directly to the influence of Jenova. The knowledge shook them to their core, and for Genesis was justification to do some terrible things, but to me it was always presented (poorly) as a severe identity threat.

Don't @ me about this lmao

 

[Odysseus]

Genesis and Angeal probably could have used more pre-defection screen time. The most we see Genesis before that, outside of text blurbs and the DMW, was in the scene where he fights Sephiroth in VR. The guy we see there seems just as cocky and jealous as he is later on, so the idea he went crazy because of Jenova doesn't seem like what they're showing.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Genesis being hyper-competitive and seemingly jealous is the classic, "you play too much" macho/ego shit where competitive and playful banter escalates into outright brawling due to one or both parties taking it too far. It's the kinda shit guys do rough housing or playing that results in coming to blows, albeit in much less destructive ways. It's immature but not indicative of evil. Genesis had a chip on his shoulder like so many people do.

Yeah we definitely could've used more of Genesis' past so it could serve as a baseline for a clearer before/after and improved depiction of why what he did was so unprecedented. Sephiroth is cold, taciturn and a killing machine yet everyone was shocked he went postal during a mission. Because he showed he had a human side.

However, in the end all 3 of them are results of the Jenova Project. Which would obviously color how one interprets their unraveling and unusual behavior. I don't see how one couldn't compare Sephiroth and Genesis given their obvious parallels, right down to the same aggrieved accusatory language and the black wing donning when turning evil.

 

[Clement Rage]

What about all the people that have Jenova in them that don't go on random killing sprees? It's quite a list.

Angeal isn't violent at all. Lazard has less destructive influences than he already had as a human. We see what Angeal's will is when it manifests in Lazard, and it's pure 'save as many people as possible, at your own expense if necessary'.

They can manifest and de-manifest the wings at will.

They can? We never see that.

It feels like something like what happened with FF13 happens with CC. The characters have surface motivations, which are different from their actual motivations. LOVELESS and honour are their coping mechanisms, not they're actual motivations.

Genesis doesn't think re-enacting a play will make him better. Otherwise he'd just stage a production of LOVELESS and not bother with Hollander.

He doesn't get his information from an Ultimania, he just has to draw conclusions from what he knows. How can he know that his parents were sincere, and not just doing what they were paid to do, like the people that replace the Nibelheim villagers? It is the kind of thing Shinra does, after all.

Genesis' parents basically didn't tell him he was adopted. They loved, spoiled and treated them like their own child. He came from a loving, wealthy household where he was able to pursue his hobbies and pursue his dream.

He returned their kindness with murder. Not just murder but murder that then spread to an entire village. He responded like a sociopath. And he was never a violent sociopath before. Something dark awakened in Genesis. Something inhuman.

Notice how Angeal didn't respond to the discovery of his unique birth with bloodlust and murder. Yes he felt distraught and all of those things. But not homicidal.

And that's interesting, isn't it? If those impulses were an inevitable result of the experiment and not based on their personalities, why didn't they react the same way?

Hojo on Jenova and Hojo not on Jenova are not very different.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They can? We never see that.

- Genesis's wing comes and goes. He begins CC without it; manifests it in front of Zack later (clearly not manifesting it for the first time); it goes away later; he manifests it again in DoC

- Angeal begins CC without his wing, then manifests it in front of Zack later (clearly not his first time either); it goes away when he's mortally wounded by Zack

- Sephiroth shouldn't require any additional examples

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Mako, you ask, "How does Angeal have the common sense to delineate the two, but not Genesis?"

And my question is, does he actually make that delineation?

While I agree it's highly unlikely he would have killed his own mother, the choice is taken out his hands when Gillian kills herself. So, nio closure there. Angeal approves of Gillian's suicide. He thinks she's done the only honourable thing. And who is the victim of her moral crimes? He is. Never once does Angeal express the slightest regret or sorrow for his mother's death. He may not have killed her, but he thought she deserved to die.

When we meet him in Modeoheim, he's either trying to kill Hollander or pin Hollander down long enough for Tseng and Zack to catch up and arrest him. As far as Angeal's concerned, Hollander (his genetic father) also deserves the most severe punishment possible.

I'm not justifying Genesis's. He's a bad person (and a poorly drawn character). But he was made in a test-tube, implanted in a surrogate, farmed out for adoption to a couple who were very well rewarded for raising him and pretending he was their own; he found fame and glory as a celebrity SOLDIER, and then learnt he was doomed to suffer a slow, painful, degrading death. That's explanation enough for why he freaked out. He's a young man who is feted and rewarded for dealing death and destruction; do we really need Jenova to explain why in "You lied to me!" fury he killed his parents? Moreover, I doubt Mr and Mrs Rhapsodos were such good parents; Genesis is a completely amoral, egoistical, self-aggradising bastard, and the dumbapple doesn't fall far from the tree.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What about all the people that have Jenova in them that don't go on random killing sprees? It's quite a list.

To be honest that's like only one person... And they're a strong-willed good person to boot.

Angeal isn't violent at all. Lazard has less destructive influences than he already had as a human. We see what Angeal's will is when it manifests in Lazard, and it's pure 'save as many people as possible, at your own expense if necessary'.

Because Angeal is a good person. His strong will and intentions overcome Lazard's overwhelming feelings of revenge. The personality make up of these Jenova Project individuals obviously plays a role in their alignment and deeds. To be more precise, the overall disposition and mental fortitude they have plays a significant role in how they respond to the stress they experience, and how they act out any negative feelings within them.

Sephiroth and Genesis had personalities less committed to resisting violence and bloodshed which left them open to walking through that destructive door when tempted. Angeal was special and did not.

It feels like something like what happened with FF13 happens with CC. The characters have surface motivations, which are different from their actual motivations. LOVELESS and honour are their coping mechanisms, not they're actual motivations.

Genesis doesn't think re-enacting a play will make him better. Otherwise he'd just stage a production of LOVELESS and not bother with Hollander.

Genesis didn't want to enact the play. He wanted to enact the actual epic poem that the play was based on. The play is based on the love interest of one of the main characters... While the poem follows the main character. He was definitely serious about finding the cure through following the ancient literature and finding the Gift of the Goddess. That wasn't for fun.

He doesn't get his information from an Ultimania, he just has to draw conclusions from what he knows. How can he know that his parents were sincere, and not just doing what they were paid to do, like the people that replace the Nibelheim villagers? It is the kind of thing Shinra does, after all.

Genesis wouldn't know that because those type of village sanitizing incidents happened after his postal defection. Again, even if you give him feeling betrayed and doubtful of his parent's love, responding to those doubts with not just homicide but city/village wide mass murder is bizarre and completely psychotic. Only one other person in this narrative does that type of emotionally charged wide-scale violence. And he just so happens to share the same genetics from a murderous space alien, come from the same mad science experiment, also sprouts a black wing, and carries the same worldwide enmity. That's not coincidence.

And that's interesting, isn't it? If those impulses were an inevitable result of the experiment and not based on their personalities, why didn't they react the same way?

Hojo on Jenova and Hojo not on Jenova are not very different.

I never said that it was just the result of the experiments. I specifically stated several times Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal carry agency. What Jenova does is it heightens violent impulses. It messes with people's minds. Jenova's cells makes them more prone to destruction and disrupts their normal thoughts. It's not solely responsible. But it's an influence. Which is why strong-willed individuals are the only ones able to completely be unaffected by the process of carrying those cells.

While I agree it's highly unlikely he would have killed his own mother, the choice is taken out his hands when Gillian kills herself. So, nio closure there. Angeal approves of Gillian's suicide. He thinks she's done the only honourable thing. And who is the victim of her moral crimes? He is. Never once does Angeal express the slightest regret or sorrow for his mother's death. He may not have killed her, but he thought she deserved to die.

When we meet him in Modeoheim, he's either trying to kill Hollander or pin Hollander down long enough for Tseng and Zack to catch up and arrest him. As far as Angeal's concerned, Hollander (his genetic father) also deserves the most severe punishment possible.

Angeal being in the throes of anguish and depression perfectly justifies the reaction he feels upon seeing his mother's dead body in their home. His feelings do not hint at him feeling his mother deserves execution or speak to an influence of wanting to kill her. He feels depressed and anguish over the whole situation. That's an extremely normal reaction. Just because he's not crying like Zack doesn't mean he doesn't feel upset about it.

And if Angeal really wanted to go postal and get revenge on people like his dad, he could have killed Hollander with his barehands. He's a SOLDIER of the Jenova Project. Hollander would have been dead with his neck broken in a second if Angeal were serious.

That's explanation enough for why he freaked out. He's a young man who is feted and rewarded for dealing death and destruction; do we really need Jenova to explain why in "You lied to me!" fury he killed his parents?

You keep ignoring the footsteps Genesis is walking in here. This isn't just a freak out. He is literally thematically paralleling and foreshadowing Sephiroth's own descent into darkness. They share the same genetic legacy. They are both born from the Jenova Project. They both unfurl a black wing when evil.

This is simply not normal human behavior. Because they are the two monsters who act out monstrously and take innocent life upon reacting to the truth of their monstrous origins. That's the theme. That's how they're foils of each other.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The difference between Sephiroth's goal and Genesis's goal is that Genesis' goal is a rational human goal: to get revenge on the people who ruined his life and condemned him to a horrible death, and to find a cure so that he doesn't need to die. Whereas Sephiroth's goal - to become a god - is one of the steretypical goals of a fictional insane person. Yes, both of them massacre a town, but aside from that their modi operandi are very different. Sephiroth works alone, and scarcely deigns to notice Hojo. Genesis creates an army of little Genesises and collaborates with Hollander. Both of them do demonstrate an absolute disregard for all human life aside from their own and that of their two friends.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The difference between Sephiroth's goal and Genesis's goal is that Genesis' goal is a rational human goal: to get revenge on the people who ruined his life and condemned him to a horrible death, and to find a cure so that he doesn't need to die. Whereas Sephiroth's goal - to become a god - is one of the steretypical goals of a fictional insane person. Yes, both of them massacre a town, but aside from that their modi operandi are very different. Sephiroth works alone, and scarcely deigns to notice Hojo. Genesis creates an army of little Genesises and collaborates with Hollander. Both of them do demonstrate an absolute disregard for all human life aside from their own and that of their two friends.

Genesis' goal wasn't just to cure his degeneration either. He said specifically to Zack that if he couldn't cure it, then the world can die with him. He only turned away from that malicious intention near the end. He wasn't just a rational actor. He was a monster quite willingly for awhile.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Genesis creates an army of little Genesises and collaborates with Hollander.

Genesis' goal wasn't just to cure his degeneration either. He said specifically to Zack that if he couldn't cure it, then the world can die with him. He only turned away from that malicious intention near the end. He wasn't just a rational actor. He was a monster quite willingly for awhile.

All of which is all the more reason the presentation of the plot fails to make anyone even consider a notion like "That poor blinkered Genesis guy's ordinarily kind and rational thought processes are sure being put through the ringer. He's going to feel mighty awful about all this if anyone ever gets through to The Real Genesis That's Been Buried Inside All Along™."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then I have to ask what you think the reasoning was for giving Genesis a big black wing in the text.

Why is the story telling us about this SOLDIER 1st Class, who suddenly goes AWOL and murders his parents, hometown, and subordinates?

Why is the story revealing he was part of the Jenova Project, showcasing him following the same dark footsteps we know were walked by Sephiroth and now foreshadow what Sephiroth will do in the near future?

Why are we being told (admittedly not shown) that Genesis wasn't originally like this? Just like Sephiroth wasn't always like the villain we know him as, but originally a hero?

Why is he even given a single black wing that's evocative of Sephiroth, with Genesis flat out calling himself a monster as he goes around doing evil deeds that were not what he did before?

Why kodoku na sora wo miageru no?

Why waratte mise te yo Kotoba ni suru no ga heta na

Ahem...

Zack, who himself is a foil of Cloud, fights this villain, who himself is a foil of Sephiroth.

The symbolism and narrative themes are as subtle as a sledgehammer. Hell, Angeal's wings coincidentally, are the only ones out of that trio that are white. I wonder why

The wings in CC are evocative of Jenova and physical embodiments of them turning their backs on humanity and being psychologically disturbed. Mentally anguished. It serves as a clear and representative symbol to showcase their different state of being. Otherwise the wings are just there, serving no real textual meaning or context.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I like symbolism as much as the next consumer of media, but symbolism should not be the story -- especially when it doesn't correspond to the story as it is presented.

Because as it's presented, the answer to your question of why Genesis suddenly embraced the role of a monster while doing openly evil things he hadn't before simply appears to be that it's because he never knew before that he would be dying young. It comes off appearing like he never tried to drag the world into oblivion with him before only because he didn't know oblivion awaited so soon and his glory hog ambitions would be forever denied.

Dude doesn't even really seem to care about his origins (which is all Angeal seems to end up caring about) beyond what it means for his celebrity ... He only appears to fear (and thus resent) dying in relative obscurity rather than fearing what death may be like, what will become of his consciousness, etc.

Like, yeah, we all know what the canon story is after delving into the supplementary material, but you're presented with a totally different story first.