Improve Crisis Core Thread

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I get thinking that about Genesis and his motivations but I could only see reaching that conclusion if you were uninformed of the context in which Genesis exists regarding his connection to Sephiroth.

Like if he were any other dude without a black wing and a tragic mad scientist backstory? Yeah I could see his motivations being that straightforward and based on simply a flawed narcissistic personality. But the game wants you as someone playing this game as a prequel to FFVII to make that connection. And I don't think you even need supplemental materials to see it. Just knowledge of FFVII and Sephiroth.

Oh well, agree to disagree and all. :monster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Along a completely different tack related to Genesis, I wish we had gotten the reason Tseng would even suspect that Genesis could be influencing his copies from within the Lifestream after death.

A familiar audience will have obviously seen Tseng and his colleagues deal with a similar situation involving Sephiroth in AC, but that hasn't happened yet for Tseng as of CC. Have the Turks seen this phenomenon before?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I always took it as a hint that Tseng was far more informed thanks to being privy to Shinra research regarding the Lifestream and Planet Theory. Alluding to Shinra not being ignorant of what Mako is and how they harm the Planet's spirit energy. It just goes to show Shinra gives no fucks.

Which segues nicely to the Remake revealing President Shinra, the company and even the populace actually are aware and just don't really care. Oh, and Tseng's smartass response to Reno regarding rationalizing the Sector 7 platefall :monster:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
It is worth noting that "falling into the Lifestream" never... has resulted in people actually dying. They all get swept away by the current to wash up somewhere else in the world And Genesis has some kind of influence on his Copies while he's alive. So... I can buy "falling into the Lifestream doesn't mean death" being something people know about in the setting as like... something that happens. And Tseng is just putting two and two together. Genesis fell into the Lifestream... and his copies have turned up and someone is obviously coordinating them... and Genesis was doing that while he was alive so that means he's probably not dead at least.

It occurred to me that it's not that difficult to intersperse in-between the CC chapters where to put the missing "exposition of the status quo" type stuff... as well as were to put time/places to explore the world before the Main Story continues (which are already in the game as far as story reasons go...). I got something like this.
Chapter 1 - Zack VR training
Interlude 1 - SOLDIER before the mass desertion; see/interact with Angeal, Genesis and Sephrioth when "normal"; maybe go on non-Wutai missions
Chapter 2 - Getting briefed that Genesis is missing and the Wutai mission, going to Wuai, Angeal's desertion
Interlude 2 - SOLDIER after the mass desertion; stress that SOLDIER is stretched thin when it comes to manpower; stress on the effect the absence of Angeal and Genesis causes for SOLDIER (and Sephrioth)
Chapter 3 - Banora, first confrontation with Genesis and Angeal, Shinra covers up what happened at Banora
Interlude 3 - Zack dealing with Banora cover-up and how Angeal and Genesis are behaving very oddly and have wings now); probably have the bulk of Zack's encounters with BC AVALANCHE here
Chapter 4 - Promotion to 1st Class, 1st Half of Raid on Shinra/Midgar, Sephiroth's flash-backs to Genesis and Angeal
Chapter 5 - Meeting Aerith, 2nd Half of Raid on Shinra/Midgar, Hojo's meeting with Genesis and Angeal
Interlude 4 - Zack dealing with what he learned from the Midgar Raid about Genesis and Angeal... and mooning over Aerith and what she said about SOLDIER
Chapter 6 - Modeoheim, first real connection between Project G and Jenova made, Angeal dies
Interlude 5 - Zack dealing with Angeal's death (with Aerith's help), Zack wondering what is up with Project G, Hojo, Jenova Cells and how all those connect back to Angeal and Genesis and probably deciding he's not sure if he should want to know since he's surounded by Turks and everyone else is pretending Modeoheim never happened, Zack... distracting himself from all that with his relationship with Aerith and Cloud
Chapter 7 - Turks keeping an eye on Zack at Junon, Genesis Clones attack to free Hollander which suggests Genesis isn't dead
Interlude 6 - indications that Sephrioth is looking into what happened in Modeoheim and Project G (the more the better honestly... and probably signs he's semi-ignoring anything that could be a lead on what Jenova is
Chapter 8 - Aerith/Zack bonding time... with Tseng looking on, Nibelhim mission assigned
Interlude 7 - Sephrioth, Zack (and Cloud probably) bonding during the trip to Nibelheim
Chapter 9 - Nibelheim incident
Interlude 8 - overview of experiments with Hojo in Nibelehim (there's an entire series of missions about what monsters Hojo was having Zack fight while in the Nibelehim manor, so...), Cloud's mental state deteriorating as time passes and all Zack can do is watch, Zack probably starts admitting to himself he can at least get where Genesis (and even Sephrioth?) were coming from when it comes to being furious at the Shinra Science Department
Chapter 10a - Zack breaks out of the Nibelheim manor, Zack encounters Cissnei outside Nibelehim
Interlude 9 - Zack and Cloud between Nibelehim and Cosmo Canyon, being pursued by... pretty much everyone
Chapter 10b - Zack encounters Genesis outside Cosmo Canyon
Interlude 10 - Zack and Cloud between Cosmo Canyon and Gongaga
Chapter 10c - Zack encounters Cissnei outside Gongaga, Zack encounters Genesis, Hollander and Lazard
Interlude 11 - Zack, Cloud and Lazard between Gongaga and Banora... particularly... how did they cross the ocean?
Epilogue a - Banora, Zack and Genesis fight for the last time, the Planet fixes Genesis' degredation, Lazard dies
Interlude 12 - expanded scene for aftermath of the Zack and Genesis fight with a better explanation for what was going on there
Epilouge b - Zack's death, Cloud reaches Midgar
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Funny how differently people read things.

- Genesis's wing comes and goes. He begins CC without it; manifests it in front of Zack later (clearly not manifesting it for the first time); it goes away later; he manifests it again in DoC

- Angeal begins CC without his wing, then manifests it in front of Zack later (clearly not his first time either); it goes away when he's mortally wounded by Zack.

We never see them de manifest it, though. Genesis' form goes away when he's healed by divine intervention, Angeals goes away when he dies, along with the rest of his monster form. That's not 'at will'. Could be its a transformation they've been fighting a while.

Sephiroth's kinda a special case, considering he doesn't really have a body at all anymore.

I don't think Angeal approves of Gillian's suicide at all, he's devastated. He doesn't try to defend himself when Zack does blame him, because he really does think it's his fault.

o be honest that's like only one person...

Everyone in SOLDIER?

While the poem follows the main character. He was definitely serious about finding the cure through following the ancient literature and finding the Gift of the Goddess. That wasn't for fun.

He wants to heal himself, but he tries to do it through S Cells, A cells, and Hollander. He just lucks out at the end (although that part always confuses me. His base is Banora, did he know about the giant materia all this time? Why didn't he use it before then?)

Then I have to ask what you think the reasoning was for giving Genesis a big black wing in the text.

Why is the story telling us about this SOLDIER 1st Class, who suddenly goes AWOL and murders his parents, hometown, and subordinates?

Perhaps to demonstrate that their actions weren't through the influence of Jenova? That other people went through the same thing but reacted differently, that what happened wasn't inevitable at all.

Shinra doesn't have absolute knowledge of what happened in the reactor. No one came hunting Tifa after all.

Mako poisoning is an established condition of falling into the lifestream, the doctor already knows about it when Cloud washes up. It's a thing that happens.

Honestly, the trios motivations are fairly straightforward.

Genesis: I am dying. Slowly. Painfully. I want to fix that, or at least make Shinra pay for doing this to me.

Angeal: I am a monster that is used to create more monsters by mad scientists, which will keep going as long as I exist. Therefore, I need to not exist.

Being a monster is not a minor detail in this world. They're a real danger that regularly kill people. It's a legitimate concern, not empty whining. The only person he can trust to do it and not put him in a lab and harvest him is Zack.

Sephiroth is also not as irrational as he appears. He finds out that his mother is a research specimen, is alive, and is being harvested for her cells in Nibelheim reactor. Priority 1 is to break her out, and wreak revenge on the humans that did this to her.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
We never see them de manifest it, though. Genesis' form goes away when he's healed by divine intervention

Genesis' wing still exists and manifests once more in Dirge of Cerberus, dude. He hasn't lost his wing. He unfurls it before flying off with Weiss. That's still part of him. And unless you believe he can now never enter a building with less than 10 feet clearance, he can make it vanish.. Just like Sephiroth, another of Jenova's "children." There's no indication it's unable to be dissipated when not in use.


Also, Genesis is clearly walking around without his wing in Modeoheim, and only releases it when Zack fights him one-on-one during his boss fight. So he pops it in and out even in Crisis Core. You can see the hole in his jacket.

Everyone in SOLDIER?

Since when is every SOLDIER spliced with Jenova's genetics in their DNA and a product of the Jenova Project? They're not the same as Genesis, Angeal or Sephiroth.

Perhaps to demonstrate that their actions weren't through the influence of Jenova? That other people went through the same thing but reacted differently, that what happened wasn't inevitable at all.

So you just discard the symbolism, narratively defined connection and numerous thematic parallels entirely because... Reasons? The factors of Jenova and their similarity between Genesis and Sephiroth are clear and too numerous and intentional to be coincidental; what would be the point to inject that clear thematic symbolism and parallel for zero narrative context and meaning? Again.

Why give Genesis the wing, Sephiroth foreshadowing and numerous allusions to Sephiroth's condition? Why make him a product of the Jenova Project? Why make Zack, the thematic foil of Cloud, have a thematic foil of Sephiroth as his villain? This isn't complicated at all.

Genesis wishing to save his own life doesn't change how his actions are clearly abnormal and similarly destructively motivated. It's multifaceted. There are parallel forces at work within him. To a point that's thematically and similar to Sephiroth's own rage and revenge. And he didn't just want to save his own life. He wants revenge on the world, he says if he can't be saved he'll take the world with him. He calls himself a monster for a reason. Don't pretend he's simply a rational actor trying to save himself when he positioned himself as a monster, had his copies attack bystanders, and slaughtered a village. He's not stupid.


Hell, Sephiroth wanted to own the planet and become a god. He wanted to become one with it, and it just so happened to mirror the same exact methodology that Jenova utilized to devour planets in the past. Yet, we know Sephiroth is in control of his actions. That's because his motivations may be his own, but his instincts and methods are derived from Jenova because he is Jenova. He's part of that species.

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this parallel concept. Genesis' agency is his own. But his instincts and mental condition are corrupted and influenced by the Jenova in him. We know this is what Jenova does. To think he isn't subject to it despite mirroring Sephiroth, is to deny the very principle of why he's a character that's part of the Jenova Project in the first place. Why is he flawed then? Why does he materialize Jenova's abilities? Why is he creating the footsteps Sephiroth himself will follow and succeed in?
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
When did Genesis fall into the Lifestream?
Genesis falls into the Lifestream at the Modeoheim reactor. He fights Zack and then... pretty much lets himself drop into the depths of the mako reactor (where every other reactor leads down to the Lifestream/mako pool). And then he doesn't show up for several months during which the Genesis Cones are pretty quiet. At least until the Junon assault where the Genesis Copes get Hollander finally.
He wants to heal himself, but he tries to do it through S Cells, A cells, and Hollander. He just lucks out at the end (although that part always confuses me. His base is Banora, did he know about the giant materia all this time? Why didn't he use it before then?)
He apparently did. He just didn't think of using it to heal his degredation until he'd figured out all the sources of Jenova Cells did work. Or rather, that trying to mix different Jenova Cell "strains" always resulted in more monstrous traits. He only turned to the Lifestream until he had literally no other options left. In the Keywords that have to do with the Goddess Minerva, there's some more info on what he's thinking. Especially in "The Meeting with Minerva" entry.

The CC Ultimana Scenario Q & A also goes into this.
Q6-2: What was Genesis’ objective?

A6-2: His objective was to cure the deterioration. He looked for the way, and as mentioned in A4-2 and A4-3 he took various actions towards that goal. However, as he was unable to take Cloud’s cells, and with the death of Hollander, he lost the way to stop his deterioration, so as his final recourse he turned to the Lifestream.
Q6-3: After Genesis is collected in the ShinRa helicopter you can see a sheet of paper saying “To become the dew that quenches the land; to spare the skies, the seas to sands; I shall become an unspoken offering.” Is this phrase from the lost final chapter of LOVELESS?

A6-3: The final chapter of LOVELESS is missing, and nothing official exists in the world of FFVII. Experts study it, and there are currently various theories about it. The phrase you mentioned is the final chapter of LOVELESS as Genesis conceived it, and reflects Genesis’ state of mind.

By being defeated by Zack, Genesis is able to regain the pride he had as a SOLDIER, and with Sephiroth and Angeal now dead, he decided that it is up to him, who has being left behind, to protect the world. And so, in order to prepare for the day when a crisis threatens the world, Genesis seals himself in the flooded chamber on his own volition. This is the true meaning of Genesis’ version of the phrase from the final chapter of LOVELESS, and at the same time the true meaning of the secret movie in DC (see A7-3).
Since when is every SOLDIER spliced with Jenova's genetics in their DNA and a product of the Jenova Project? They're not the same as Genesis, Angeal or Sephiroth.
Since the CC Keywords in the CC Ultimania. If not the OG itself actually...
Jenova Cells
The cells from Jenova used in the Jenova Project and SOLDIER surgical procedures. Those who have been injected with these cells undergo physiological changes such as improvement of their physical abilities and partially receiving Jenova’s abilities. However, mentally weak people are unable to withstand Jenova’s will, and it sometimes brings about mental abnormalities.
In addition, the Keyword guide also calls attention to how Zack can copy people's limit breaks to use as his own limit break. And then directly compares it to how Cloud would (unconsciously!) copy his own limit break, Meteor Rain, off of Zack's limit break that was based on Cloud called Meteor Shot!
Limit Breaks
When your spirit energy rises to its ultimate limit, for a short while it aligns with and emits from your body. Furthermore, Zack is unusual in that he can copy Limit Breaks, such as taking Aerith’s “Healing Wind” Limit Break from FFVII and turning it into his Limit Break “Healing Wave”. In the same way, Cloud takes his Limit Break “Meteor Rain” from the original Limit Break Zack created based on him called “Meteor Shot”.
In addition to that, the DMW itself links up memories Zack has of people with him using their abilities as his own. So there's some kind of memory related power going on with it and we all know how much Jenova's power set runs on manipulating memories...

Aside from all that... there's Cloud explaining what happened to him in Hojo's lab in the OG... and how it was the same way SOLDIERs are created. And one of the specific things he mentions about it is that both mako and Jenova Cells are involved.
Cloud
I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER.
Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult.
It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.
You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy.
Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......
For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER.
It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion.
But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing.
So yeah, Jenova Cells being involved in the normal SOLDIER creation process is... very, very old.

The differences between "normal" SOLDIER, Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth is explained in the CC Ultimania Scenerio Q & A though!
Q2-3: What are the crucial differences in the experimental processes for those born from Project S and those born from Project G?

A2-3: Put simply, it’s a difference between when the Jenova cells were injected into the body, and the concentration and purity of the Jenova cells.

Sephiroth was implanted with Jenova cells at the embryonic stage. Angeal was born from an ovum from Gillian, who has Jenova cells, and developed in her womb. Genesis was born from a fertilized egg cell unrelated to Jenova, and at the embryonic stage was implanted with genes from Gillian, who has Jenova cells.

In other words, because Sephiroth received Jenova cells with a high level of purity at an early stage of development, he ends up inheriting Jenova’s abilities the best.
"Normal" SOLDIERs aren't talked about, but given they would be getting Jenova Cells in their late teens... they'd have even less integration (and Jenova abilities) than Sephrioth, Angeal and Genesis would.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
"Normal" SOLDIERs aren't talked about, but given they would be getting Jenova Cells in their late teens... they'd have even less integration (and Jenova abilities) than Sephrioth, Angeal and Genesis would.

That's what I mean. SOLDIERs are still human, albeit humans with alien cells added to their body. They aren't some hybridized life-form that actually carries Jenova's genetic markers and DNA within their own cells. Like Sephiroth.
 
Crisis Core seems like a perfect example of how the meaning of a text depends on what the author reads into it.
We can infer or assume that Gensis fell into the Lifestream, but we don't know that for a fact. The reactor at Modeoheim was either never completed, or decomissioned, so there might not be any llifestream at the bottom of it. We just don't know.
Angeal obviously has an emotional reaction to his mother's suicide, but to describe him as devastated depends on how you interpret his body language. We don't know for a fact that he hadn't gone to her cottage to kill her; we infer that from the little we know of his character. Zack immediately assumed he did it, which shows Zack thinks he's capable of such such a thing. What Angeal says is, "My mother no longer had any reason to live and I'm guilty of the same crime." What exactly that "crime" is, is open to interpretation.
When it comes to the Jenova in them, I think the difference between the Big Three and all the other SOLDIERs is like the difference between genetic engineering and vaccination.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It would be completely out of character for Angeal to want to murder his parents. Nothing in the text comes close to suggesting that he harbors those feelings and the writers even explain his mindset in commentary. I don't get how that attribution would even be affixed to his character.

You can criticise his depiction in the game with good reason but there's nothing that confuses his alignment or motivations. He's a "good guy" thrown into tragic circumstances that lead to his own self destruction. He's not some masked sociopath.

The crime is being a monster. I mean he says this, come on. :monster:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
That's what I mean. SOLDIERs are still human, albeit humans with alien cells added to their body. They aren't some hybridized life-form that actually carries Jenova's genetic markers and DNA within their own cells. Like Sephiroth.
Certainly to a lesser degree. We know one of the things Jenova Cells are amazingly good at is acting like a virus to pass on their own genetics to other cells to change those cells into something resembling the Jenova Cells. I wouldn't put it past them to at least effect something in all SOLDIERs, just not to the degree of Sephrioth and Co.

Ifalna actually mentions Jenova doing passing on her cells to the Cetra when she says...
Ifalna
That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came.
He first approached as a friend, deceived them, and finally...... gave them the virus.
The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad... transforming into monsters.
Then, just as he had at the Knowlespole.
He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the virus...

【イファルナ】
「それが星を傷つけた者です…… 空から来た厄災! わたしたちは、そう呼んでいます」
「その者は親しげな顔でセトラたちに近づき…あざむき…そして……ウィルスを…ウィルスを与えたのです」
「ウィルスに侵されたセトラたちは 心を失い……そしてモンスターと化しました」
「その者は、ノルズボルと同じように別のセトラの部族に近づき……… そしてまた…ウィルスを……」
I've posted the JP script of this, because the Japanese phrase translated as "went mad" in the OG doesn't mean what it sounds like. The JP phrase is pretty much "lose your heart/sense of self"... which is significant if you know anything about the Kingdom Hearts franchise. It's the same concept there down to the JP wording used. The JP word used in the OG is "kokoro" and it gets translated as "Heart" in the KH franchise. So it's... essentially saying that the Cetra Jenova infected with the Virus lost their "heart"... more like their "sense of self" and not just in a metaphysical way. "Kokoro" is like... a combination of "body, heart, mind" and there's not really a good English equivalent for it. So yeah, getting the Jenvoa Virus probably turns you into some kind of Heartless/Nobody hybrid if you're going by the terms used for what is going on.

Which... honestly explains why "degredation" in CC is so weird if you're just looking at it from the physical perspective (that it's a genetic disease). It's not something that is just effecting them physically, its... everything that makes them "them" and not "of Jenova" that is effected. Which... includes their reasoning and how they think about things. It's like... heh... watching the Nobodies in Kingdom Hearts and how they end up with very flawed reasoning that doesn't make sense... because large parts of what makes them "them" are missing. Only unlike Nobodies, their bodies are not functioning correctly either as they transform into monsters... so they really have the worst of both Nobodies and Heartless.

Unfortunately, getting any of that across in English is really hard, since English loves treating "body" and "soul" as two separate things metaphysically and not one combined thing. As in where what happens to one happens to the other. And the idea that "body" and "soul" are in a combined "state of being" that shouldn't (usually more like can't) be separated is really common over the entire FF series.

TLDR: FFVII was dong Kingdom Hearts metaphysics before Kingdom Hearts was (or is it the other way around?). It just never came out in English due to translation issues. For yet another example, look up what, The Final World, a place on the edge of the Kingdom Hearts afterlife, looks like... it's... very familiar....
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I don't get it. Why is the goddess his backup plan and trusting the obviously untrustworthy Hollander Plan A?

Honestly, it would be kinda dumb for them to assume Sephiroth was dead after Genesis and Angeal supposedly survived similar fates.

You're right about the wing, which is weird. The wings are the whole symbol of their monstrosity and degradation, the idea that they can come and go is weird. Still, I don't think they can just go back to work like nothing happened.

If we're just talking about the three supersoldiers, that's 1 person that didn't go on killing sprees v 2 that did.
 

Torrie

astray ay-ay-ay
So, um, I've just beaten Minerva but I don't feel as happy as I thought I would. With all the top tier armor and equipment, costly punch, full cure, and those 99 phoenix downs, the battle becomes less strategical and more mechanical: hit, run, hit, dodge, hit, die, reraise. I didn't even need to farm SP as all the guides suggest. Hypothetically, this could be improved somehow too, either in terms of difficulty, or its placement in the game, because she was literally the last mission I did, and I have nowhere to go anymore -- only march towards my death at the end of the game. I might try the hard mode someday though, but at this stage the game is so imbalanced that it's all about gigantic numbers and maximum stats rather than careful tactics.
 

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
If you want more of a challenge, don't use Costly Punch :monster:

Don't do this lmao. Minerva has 10 million HP, 20 million on hard. Your best DPS option is plain ol' attacking if you restrict yourself from the "punch" materia. Plain attacks are shit against her max level and stats. Just a few thousand per hit. It takes three and a half hours. I know because I did it haha.
 

cloudy

Rookie Adventurer
I felt that the pacing was very off. Like when Zack fights Angeal and then falls through the church, suddenly he forgets about his friends that need him to flirt with this girl he doesn't even know. (Not that his time with Aerith should be cut, it should just be in a different place.) I just feel like Zack wouldn't do that. Also, it would be cool to see more of his relationship with Cloud, it would give a lot more meaning to Cloud's memories of him if they actually knew each other well before Nibelheim more than just in passing. I'd also really like to see more of Angeal, I imagine there was a lot of complexity in what he was thinking and feeling that just sort of got glossed over.

actual events aside do I even need to mention the combat...
 

Torrie

astray ay-ay-ay
Also, it would be cool to see more of his relationship with Cloud, it would give a lot more meaning to Cloud's memories of him if they actually knew each other well before Nibelheim more than just in passing.
I couldn't agree more. Zack and Cloud's interactions are one of the most underdeveloped plotlines in the game. Just a tiny little line of dialogue here and there, and the picture would have been majorly improved. There's an old but curious off-topic discussion here on TLS, which I keep rereading once in a while, on whether or not they were best friends or just army buddies. The game is obviously to blame for not portraying it properly and leaving far too much to the player's imagination and head canon.
 
I liked it more when they were just army buddies; when Zack was someone who was kind to Cloud whenever their paths happened to cross and never really thought about him the rest of the time, while Cloud built up this big wishful thinking fantasy about how he and this awesome first class dude were pals. I like it less when Zack and Cloud are portrayed as best friends. Apart from anything else, it feels improbable.
 
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