SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Obsidian Fire]

Or maybe, Hojo was "playing" Weiss' combat simulator data, ala a fighting game?

I could totally see him doing this to see how good Cloud and Co. are...

He does it with Zack all the time in CC with Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis... and even Zack's own data at times.

 

[Roundhouse]

So we are all finally in agreement, and have narrowed the choices down to this:

A) Zack is in the same timeline and goes back to the church but Aeris has already left for Kalm, so Zack simply finds the people upset about the plate collapse there, and is worried and confused as a result.

B) Zack is in an alternate timeline, and when he goes to the church the people there are mourning the death of Aeris, and he's about to have his heart broken.

C) Zack was in an alternate timeline and is now phasing into the normal timeline because of temporal magic weirdness, and so a merge is occuring that will mean he is essentially in the same timeline.

D) Zack is in a completely different timeline with different events to anything we have seen thus far. Here, Cloud is the Sephiroth of the world and Sephiroth is the hero.

E) Zack is in the same timeline, but Genesis employed a troupe of actors to fill the church and make it seem like Aeris is dead. He has directed this play to fool Zack into giving up on her so that Zack will not mess up the timeline by confronting Cloud and co.

 

[Makoeyes987]

A) Zack is in the same timeline and goes back to the church but Aeris has already left for Kalm, so Zack simply finds the people upset about the plate collapse there, and is worried and confused as a result.

This seems the most unlikely due to the fact the church Zack enters is different than the one in FFVII-R. Not only that, its appearance resembles Crisis Core's design of the church from the past. That, coupled with the fact Zack's trek to Midgar with an unconscious Cloud happened right after his changed fate from Crisis Core's final battle, makes me feel it's unlikely he jumped forward in time to suddenly enter the present where a location mismatches what we see in the story. The fact this would be the second direct reference to Crisis Core after the first in Part 1's ending lends credence to them setting up this alternate fate for him here. I just don't see how all of that coupled with every other "spot the difference" visual cue we've had with Zack in this Remake so far, is a coincidence.

B) Zack is in an alternate timeline, and when he goes to the church the people there are mourning the death of Aeris, and he's about to have his heart broken.

D) Zack is in a completely different timeline with different events to anything we have seen thus far.

These seem the most possible, especially since Zack living through his last stand in Crisis Core already set the stage for us to have a different timeline with events never before seen. I mean, Zack was supposed to die. And thanks to Cloud and the others, he now lives.

I dunno if Aerith is dead but the scene certainly implies something is wrong there.

 

[waw]

A) Zack is in the same timeline and goes back to the church but Aeris has already left for Kalm, so Zack simply finds the people upset about the plate collapse there, and is worried and confused as a result.

I'm not terribly sold that this won't be the case. In some ways, it's the simplest storyline to pursue here. Zack, Biggs, Jesse, and any other characters that they want to not be dead could have their death-fates averted.

There's a timing issue that remains unresolved (when he died vs. when he's arriving to the church in canon) that could be resolved.

There's art discrepencies around the Church and Stamp. These could also get resolved to make this work. I'm think this is setting at a 3/5 likelihood for me.

B) Zack is in an alternate timeline, and when he goes to the church the people there are mourning the death of Aeris, and he's about to have his heart broken.

We have no clue to the second part there being the case but the people are mourning something. If Cloud never joins Avalanche, does Zack? Would they carry out their missions as normal? Probably not if Tifa isn't dragging Cloud into it. So maybe Avalanche dies/loses much earlier. There may be no party of heroes in this timeline. Aerith may or may not be dead as a result. I think the jury needs to be left out on this one. Zirconiade? Some other disaster? We just don't know, but in general option B, Zack in another timeline doing his own thing is still out there. That story would logically and likely have to intersect with FF7 Remake to give reason for so much emphasis and working going into it. 3/5 Likelihood.

C) Zack was in an alternate timeline and is now phasing into the normal timeline because of temporal magic weirdness, and so a merge is occuring that will mean he is essentially in the same timeline.

I think this is a real likelihood here. I'm going to say 5/5 It's a bit connected to the one above, but I think there needs to be some sort of convergence that's bringing things together. If Zack crossed over into this reality from his, it would give the players a voice exploring where alt-Sephiroth came from and how Aerith is semi-Alt-Aerith. He could pop into Minerva or something, or Genesis, to figure this stuff out. Hell, Genesis and Weiss from the end of DoC as Time Cops could be made into something worthwhile here.

D) Zack is in a completely different timeline with different events to anything we have seen thus far. Here, Cloud is the Sephiroth of the world and Sephiroth is the hero.

1/5 because we have yet to see good and evil inverted in any way. Although, if they're doing multiple timelines and the like, I'd really like to see a redemption for Sephiroth, even if it's in the form of one of his Remnants, perhaps one embodying his Humanity.

E) Zack is in the same timeline, but Genesis employed a troupe of actors to fill the church and make it seem like Aeris is dead. He has directed this play to fool Zack into giving up on her so that Zack will not mess up the timeline by confronting Cloud and co.

10/5

 

[Tetsujin]

Also, I just realized

what was up with that "Heretic Rayleigh" thing from the jpn soundtrack

I mean I know now what enemy it refers to (the boss in the VR simulator before you fight Nero) but like...what's the connection here

 

[JBedford]

what was up with that "Heretic Rayleigh" thing from the jpn soundtrack

I mean I know now what enemy it refers to (the boss in the VR simulator before you fight Nero) but like...what's the connection here

It's that enemy's name in Japanese.

 

[Tetsujin]

It's that enemy's name in Japanese.

Well yeah, I know. But is there a connection to Rayleigh from BC at all is what I mean

 

[JBedford]

If all we have is the enemy's name, then they probably want us to assume it's what became of Rayleigh post-some Jenova experiment.

It's definitely Rayleigh in some form though. The only other Heretic is Jenova-transformed Hojo.

Something they added to reference the Compilation and explain a character's absence. Something the Ultimania will point out.

 

[Tetsujin]

Also, I forgot to mention: Foreshadowing of the Proud Clod/Clad/Pride and Joy whateverthefuck in Scarlet's lab. As in, the real thing, still under construction. That was pretty neat.

 

[cold_spirit]

The church during the new Zack scene has more in common with the in-game FFVIIR version than any other previous version. Please everyone, do not plunge this thread into church hysteria. Had the storytellers wanted to highlight a visual difference between the churches, they would've done so much more obviously, like with Stamp.

I'm so annoyed that I'm even engaging with this discussion lmao.

 

[Torrie]

Wait, does this mean CC doesn't happen in the past of the OG????

If CC never happened, it means Genesis never existed either

When Zack has his Last Stand in Remake, the Whispers are never around him. They are only around the Troopers. Does this mean the Whispers aren't interfering in Zack's fate?

It's an interesting point; I remember watching someone on YouTube theorizing about it. If the Whispers are there to change Zack's fate but they are swirling around the troopers, they might be making sure that they miss the target therefore Zack has more opportunities to defeat them faster.

Zack "wins" the Last Stand *before* the Whisper Dome dissipates. The Whisper Dome dissipating does not cause Zack to win the Last Stand. Does this mean Zack "wins" the Last Stand *in spite* of the Whispers rather than *because* of them?

Maybe the Whisper Dome does cause him to win, as it releases the Whispers to control the situation. Besides, he wins before it starts raining. In CC, he was fighting long enough for the clouds to gather. After the Dome dissipates, he is supposed to be killed by three troopers who have been waiting for a perfect moment to finish him off, but it doesn't happen as he has already eliminated everyone by that time. So I'm still inclined to believe the Whispers help somehow by impeding the troopers and causing them to miss more often, because the Planet needs him for a reason.

OR NOT Maybe he was supposed to die, but his zest for life was so strong that the Dome released the Whispers to make sure he would die but he won in spite of them, and then the Dome disappeared, and no one could stand in his way any longer.

When we see Cloud and Co. on the cliff in the Wasteland. It is mid-morning (at least). Given they went into the Singularity in the dead of night, is it possible the Singularity deposited them into the future by a few hours rather than where/when they should have been if they had never gone into the Singularity?

I have the impression that they spent as much time in the Singularity as they would have spent in the normal flow of time. Anyway, they might have ended up in a different timeline / parallel universe / anywhere but the FFVIIR Midgar.

To sum up, "Nothing is confirmed until it's confirmed" is going to be my favourite statement from now on.

 

[cold_spirit]

I've been advocating for separate, asynchronous timelines since April 2020. Here's my latest:

 

[Wol]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402679729514192897

Huh? Is Nomura trying to tell us something cryptic here with this change?

 

[Eerie]

People in the twitter thread have noticed it sounds like One Wing Angel from AC/C. That's really interesting. To me it gives credits that something is wrong - I've said it enough but I always felt that Sephiroth was taunting Aerith when he went through the portal, and only Zack's vision decided her to act.

When Zack has his Last Stand in Remake, the Whispers are never around him. They are only around the Troopers. Does this mean the Whispers aren't interfering in Zack's fate?

Looking at the fact that the whispers are around the troopers... I'm starting to think that maybeeeeeee this scene is from a parallel universe from where Zack wins anyway. And the Sephiroth from that universe is trying to come to the OG universe. Actually, this would give credit to the merging universe theory, because that would be chapter 18 Sephiroth's goal, in order to wreck chaos in the OG timeline too.

Which would make me think that in this universe, because there is no Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret... they all die. Hence why we see people mourning Aerith maybe in her church. That would solve the "doubles" problem, except for Cloud's, which is to get resolved in the Lifestream.

That also reminds me that in their fight against Sephiroth at the end, Sephiroth only talks to 3 characters: Cloud (expected), Aertih (expected), and... Tifa. And he really doesn't like Tifa. Is this simply a way for the devs to allude to her role in the Lifestream scene, depriving him of puppet!Cloud? If this Sephiroth is from a parallel universe, logically, he hasn't heard of Cloud and the gang. Since they all die or Cloud is mako-poisoned. But I've also had the theory that the Lifestream is joining all the parallel universes... what if the OG story is the only universe where Sephiroth loses? Then wouldn't other Sephiroth(s) from other parallel universe(s) study that case in the Lifestream? Then Sephiroth's goal would be to win everywhere, maybe to converge all the parallel universes into one where he wins, and with all the power accumulated, truly becomes a god who can escape the Planet's fate?

Edit: also I was coming to this thread to talk about Scarlet and how she talks about Wutai: they're definitely scapegoats, and just like in the OG we're going to find that they've become pretty much a vacation spot for Shinra.

 

[Shademp]

It's interesting that Sonon and Yuffie talk about Godo being in "jail". I wonder if it's just a simple house arrest or if he is in an actual prison.

Also while the ending is great, rewatching it confirms the jarring transition I felt the first time. When Yuffie is riding the chocobo she appears mostly unphased from all the tragedy that just happened. A bit apprehensive in her humming, yes, but way too happy and eager to have others join her. It feels as though the entire tragedy with Sonon never even happened. That's my main complaint with the ending. There is too much missing between Yuffie crying to the sky and the 1-2 days later when she is on the chocobo.

OMG

Spoiler: Weiss fight spoilers

I can't believe Weiss actually used Azul's gun

And he can also use Rosso's blades.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh. My. God.

They deadass gave us a combined new remix of "Flicker" and "Fearful Happening" from the Dirge of Cerberus soundtrack.

I fucking squee'd out loud between that and seeing Nero and Weiss get unleashed.

Holy shit, this fucking chapter is lit.

EDIT: Holy hell, these fucking Deepground SOLDIERs are competent?!?!

What is this, Fortnite!?! They boxing me in, going invisible, and outmaneuvering me with guns!!!

EDIT2: IT'S THE MUTHAFUCKIN' PEGASUS RIDERS THEME FROM THE DIRGE OF CERBERUS MULTIPLAYER MODE SOUNDTRACK!!! ;ALKFJAS;LFKASJD;LFSDLFAS;DKLFJA

 

[Eerie]

Also while the ending is great, rewatching it confirms the jarring transition I felt the first time. When Yuffie is riding the chocobo she appears mostly unphased from all the tragedy that just happened. A bit apprehensive in her humming, yes, but way too happy and eager to have others join her. It feels as though the entire tragedy with Sonon never even happened. That's my main complaint with the ending. There is too much missing between Yuffie crying to the sky and the 1-2 days later when she is on the chocobo.

I don't think she's really happy. I think she's trying hard and putting a facade up there. Moving on from losses like this one *is* an FFVII theme, after all, and we all know it's not easy. But she's trying hard, just like Aerith is trying hard to move on from Zack, etc.

 

[Odysseus]

Oh. My. God.

They deadass gave us a combined new remix of "Flicker" and "Fearful Happening" from the Dirge of Cerberus soundtrack.

I fucking squee'd out loud between that and seeing Nero and Weiss get unleashed.

Holy shit, this fucking chapter is lit.

EDIT: Holy hell, these fucking Deepground SOLDIERs are competent?!?!

What is this, Fortnite!?! They boxing me in, going invisible, and outmaneuvering me with guns!!!

EDIT2: IT'S THE MUTHAFUCKIN' PEGASUS RIDERS THEME FROM THE DIRGE OF CERBERUS MULTIPLAYER MODE SOUNDTRACK!!! ;ALKFJAS;LFKASJD;LFSDLFAS;DKLFJA

I was pleasantly surprised that the DG troops were actually as tough as you'd think they'd be, instead of giant targets that go down in one shot like in dirge lol.

Also, have you slept recently, Mako?

Edit: and yeah it seemed obvious to me that Yuffie was holding in her sadness.

 

[Tetsujin]

The church during the new Zack scene has more in common with the in-game FFVIIR version than any other previous version.

Also, my image had a piss filter from photo mode, I took more without it

 

[Edley]

I haven't played the new thing and only watched the cutscene once so I don't have a strong opinion on the current debate. I haven't seen it mentioned that we're going from PS4 to PS5 here so visual fidelity updates are going to be expected. The main cast definitely looks sharper, so I could see said church getting a bit of a lighting facelift. On the other hand, sneaky SE will sneaky.

I assume we never see or hear mention of mako-Cloud with Zack in the new scenes? And lastly, Zack should invest in a moogle poncho for the lols.

 

[Fiz]

This seems the most unlikely due to the fact the church Zack enters is different than the one in FFVII-R. Not only that, its appearance resembles Crisis Core's design of the church from the past. That, coupled with the fact Zack's trek to Midgar with an unconscious Cloud happened right after his changed fate from Crisis Core's final battle, makes me feel it's unlikely he jumped forward in time to suddenly enter the present where a location mismatches what we see in the story. The fact this would be the second direct reference to Crisis Core after the first in Part 1's ending lends credence to them setting up this alternate fate for him here. I just don't see how all of that coupled with every other "spot the difference" visual cue we've had with Zack in this Remake so far, is a coincidence.





These seem the most possible, especially since Zack living through his last stand in Crisis Core already set the stage for us to have a different timeline with events never before seen. I mean, Zack was supposed to die. And thanks to Cloud and the others, he now lives.

I dunno if Aerith is dead but the scene certainly implies something is wrong there.

I’m gonna wait until part 2 on this because we don’t know where Cloud + Co. exited. They could be in a new merged timeline, or something to that affect.

I still think it’s unlikely we will be playing Cloud and co in one timeline and Zack in another because of how much it would bloat it. Given Zacks popularity in Japan I don’t see him being “Laguna’d” in execution either ?

But, dunno... I feel like I could be heavily revising my theories ?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I was pleasantly surprised that the DG troops were actually as tough as you'd think they'd be, instead of giant targets that go down in one shot like in dirge lol.

Also, have you slept recently, Mako?

Nope

I finished it all through the night, sidequests and all. Need to do Hard Mode now.

That conclusion....Holy shit. Nero... Goddamn. They made this man 100x more fucked up and frightening than he ever was back in 2006. He lived up to his role as final boss for Intermission.

And he was the one that punched Sonon's ticket... And he did it with extreme prejudice. Not just him though... Nero murdered everybody. He also broke through his Restriction.... He killed the DG soldiers, the scientists, anyone fucking close. And relished it. Like, got off on it LOL WTF. This monster. That was so sick. I LOVE IT.

But Sonon's death legit made me choke up. Coupled with Yuffie's reaction. They got me attached and feeling for him.

I felt hyped and quite nostalgic seeing Cloud and the others make their way to Kalm. They got the party dynamics and dialogue down 100%. Loved their scenes together.

In the end, I cannot say enough how well done this DLC was. It was an incredible treat that brought so many extent concepts of FFVII together in a fun, and fitting way. I just loved it. I loved it so fucking much. I can't believe this DLC even happened. Like, this doesn't even feel real. Goddamn, this is... This is gonna be good. I'm confident it's gonna work out in Part 2.

The church during the new Zack scene has more in common with the in-game FFVIIR version than any other previous version. Please everyone, do not plunge this thread into church hysteria. Had the storytellers wanted to highlight a visual difference between the churches, they would've done so much more obviously, like with Stamp.

Ironically, this is exactly what others said about Stamp, me included. That it was a simple chip bag that was only seen once for a brief second with no other mention, and didn't imply a wider, important point. You greatly underestimate their intentionality. Designing the church with brand new textures when the original ones would have worked implies intentionality of design. Especially when it carries design cues mirroring its appearance from Crisis Core, in a scene with Zack no less.

And of course the church in the ending scene would have more in common with the FFVII-R version than not. It's the same church at different times. You'd still examine the obvious differences which stem from an environment/object being a less worn and dilapidated version of its older counterpart. That's what weathering and age does. It doesn't completely transform something into something else.

 

[Shademp]

Holy hell, these fucking Deepground SOLDIERs are competent?!?!

... They boxing me in, going invisible

I like that they decided to give the invisibility cloak to common DG soldiers. In Dirge of Cerberus we only see it used twice. First when Shelke uses it in Chapter 4, which makes sense given her title as Shelke the Transparent. Second when you meet the Black Widow Twins in Chapter 9. Incidentally, unless you have the proper emulator settings this cloaking effect will not be present. This is why many emulator recordings of Dirge will not show Shelke- or the Black Widows being cloaked.

Dirge of Cerberus always made a point of never using the all-capitals "SOLDIER" when referring to "Deepground Soldiers". It's neat to see that with the Yuffie DLC, in the bestiary, that they now get to have the all-capitals title in their name.

I assume we never see or hear mention of mako-Cloud with Zack in the new scenes?

Indeed, we have no idea where the mako-poisoned Cloud is or how he's doing.

 

[Tetsujin]

There definitely is intentionality in the church scene and it is pretty simple IMO:

We see the group left town -> hence Aerith not hanging out in the church anymore
A catastrophic event just happened with platefall -> People are seeking shelter and are in mourning

That is the simplest and most clear cut connection to draw here.

Showing that Zack survived was also pretty intentional at the end of Remake. He literally killed everyone, he asked "wait, was that everyone?", we got the triumphant FFVII theme play to underscore his victory and at the end, he carried Cloud towards Midgar.
And there too we had people deny the basic setup of the scene. "No, the scene ends just before he is killed, they just don't wanna spoil it yet!" and such. The Stamp detail wasn't even the biggest indicator that things had changed!

Bringing up the Stamp bag is ironic indeed because I think the wrong lessons were learnt from it here tbh and it's repeating the same mistakes, ignoring the basic setup of the scene and instead looking at all the wrong details to explain why something else is happening which I personally feel makes less sense in the context of the scene (and I also literally don't even see whatever Mako sees regarding the church being less dilapidated, imo it clearly isn't and this argument will flat out not convince me and all the images posted from CC work against it imo so don't even @ me ).
Like, the inconsistencies that are *actually* there (like the cross) are just background details that most people might not even notice and can easily just be unintentional.
With the Stamp bag at least they had it right in your face and in SLOW MOTION just to make sure that people catch it and that there is, in fact, intent behind it.

 

[Odysseus]

My thoughts regarding Zack:

Square is being intentionally vague about exactly what is going on with him for old players, but new players have no reason to think anything too weird is going on. Aerith mentioned her previous boyfriend, and there he is. His relationship with Cloud is the mystery for them. Once it turns out that Cloud is a fake, it will be even more credible for new players because as far as they know, Zack is alive and well, so Cloud was imprinting himself in that guy's position for some reason. Does that mean the Cloud that was with Zack is the real Cloud? That's the sort of questions I expect new players to be asking. The twist for them will be that Zack was supposed to have died, but didn't because of what the party did in part 1. Whether or not alive!zack is in the same reality as the main party is the big question for old players, which will be revealed in time as well.

I expect the misadventures of Zack to be in the background of the remake for a while to come, until he has to directly intervene with the main story (probably at the end?)