Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
So uh... Aerith's Church in Crisis Core has wood planks on the windows like in the ending scenes of Integrade... so does this means Zack Living happens in the CC timline but not the OG and Remake timeline....
Wait, does this mean CC doesn't happen in the past of the OG????
Stay tuned for the next episode of "How many temporal knots is this plot tied up in?"
Wait, does this mean CC doesn't happen in the past of the OG????
Stay tuned for the next episode of "How many temporal knots is this plot tied up in?"
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
Maidenofwar
They/Them
I am watching someone stream the Yuffie DLC and it's really nice to see
Wedge and his fur family again!
waw
Pro Adventurer
I could see this being a mistake on part of fans to believe in. Difference in coloring, rendering, lighting, etc all that really could be the case. A continuity error could account for the pews... they get moved for the refugees or something. What I'm saying is, I really find Mako's theory here plausible, but I could see an out.
I do have to say, on my first viewing of that scene, I thought the outside of the church looked way more CCish than Remakeish, but I didn't think anything of it until Mako really pushed it. Maybe I'm seeing something erroneous, but I think he's right. The church is too deliberately different.
I've always assumed the original compilation all worked together and any continuity errors were little more than production inconsistencies. For the most part, I think that's the same here. The changes to Wall Market, for example, aren't something that makes me think we have two different timelines. Yeah, the events are quite different, but they're meaningless in that sense (to me). Just the differences between two stage plays telling the same story.
But the Remake-Reduxed-CC-Ending defies anything in the saga so far. I'll continue to think of CC as an FF7 prequel... I'm just excited to get this stuff told differently and opened up.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
...they don't?
I don't see a difference
Oh, so now you trollin' me, huh wise guy??
Look at this.
The are clearly not the same. The drapes are missing in FFVII-R. The walls of the church in FFVII-R are not clean like they are in the ending. Look at the cross-like shape that's there. It's paneled in wood in Zack's ending. That wood is missing in FFVII-R. Furthermore...
The only other time we see the Church have that wood paneling on its cross-like shape at the alter there.... Is in Crisis Core. The pews are also there near the flower bed in Crisis Core and in Zack's ending. Those pews are not near the flowerbed in FFVII-R.
There's a very clear allusion going on.
Torrie
astray ay-ay-ay
Okay no circles, but I hope the pictures themselves speak louder.
The altar... place? Idk what the proper name should be, but you get the idea.
The floor definitely looks different.
So INTERmission shows us the church which looks either identical or at least very similar to the CC church in terms of colours, decorations, and the floor. The candle holder also looks slightly different everywhere.
Edit: Ninja'd by Mako
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Zack version has completely different lighting than the Church usually has. It's *very* bright outside so all the light streams in through the door/windows. I'm pretty sure they're "faking" it with a specific lighting set-up rather than just using the native lighting on the map. Or more likely, they used a copy of the map and tweaked it to fit the mood they wanted. It's a really common thing to do in video game cutscenes.
You can see how the lighting here comes in from the far left side of the picture. It's not shining full on on the side of the building where the door/stained glass window is, so the window isn't lit up as brilliantly.
This one... I"m almost tempted to say this is using a completely different *rendering* meathod than the other one. And different models/textures. The stone-work in particular is a lot more subdued. In fact, I'm almost sure this uses Visual Works instead of the in-game rendering system. So that would cause a huge number of differences all by itself.
Even without that... the lighting is coming in from the upper right instead. It would be hitting the door and stained glass window full on and causing them to light up much more obliviously.
In fact, you can see here what the lighting is like outside. It's a *super* bright white light.
Funny how none of those semi-circular stained glass windows are on either side of the door/alter in CC. And yet the Remake church always has them no matter what. It's almost like there's three different churches with slightly different modeling jobs by the dev team... maybe they're just using models as they get done with them and forgot to finish one completely? And then it got finished some more down the line?
Actually... has anyone gone into Aerith's Church in Remake after the texture update happened?
Attachments
waw
Pro Adventurer
Look at the church structure. We're going from a very marble-y/white to a worn brown/brick/wood appearance. This could a lighting thing, but it just seems pretty deliberate in CC and Zack Remake scenes, it's very white. In Remake, it's very brown and worn.
The difference in layout is the broken floor boards, pew positions, wall drapes. Okay, that stuff could get moved and shifted, no problem. But why actually design that stuff to be different within a single game? That's a lot of work.
I'm not sure what lighting would shift the setting from white to worn brown. That's odd.
Can we get comparative shots for outside the church in Remake, Remake-Zack, and CC?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
The church in Zack's ending is clearly cleaner, less dilapidated, and the floor is not nearly as destroyed.
Also the pews. There are less pews in the church in FFVII-R, when compared to the ending.
The churches in these two scenes are different in regards to how the passage of time has worn one versus the other.
Also the pews. There are less pews in the church in FFVII-R, when compared to the ending.
The churches in these two scenes are different in regards to how the passage of time has worn one versus the other.
Torrie
astray ay-ay-ay
Look, this is what Sreliata has to add. I have no idea how people extract all those models though...
Eerie
Fire and Blood
There is something eerie (no pun intended) between those two churches. Because, if you *really* think about it, the problem is not that the church by the end of Remake isn't the same that we see during the game; it's that the one during the game is really different from the CC one!
The cross behind the altar really catch my eye; even if the church falls into neglect, and the wood paneling is in poor condition, it's less pristine... the cross shouldn't have changed. But it did. So I'm going to lean on "visual trick", CGI team different (think about the difference between the characters in game and CGI models, but they're also to blame for the plate sky model error).
I mean, it's not so much a CC church than a real different church. The differences between the two are huge, but also... to simply put it, not possible. So it's probably more like a skybox error :/
Edit: Sreliata works for the game industry, FYI, so she's good at modeling etc.
The cross behind the altar really catch my eye; even if the church falls into neglect, and the wood paneling is in poor condition, it's less pristine... the cross shouldn't have changed. But it did. So I'm going to lean on "visual trick", CGI team different (think about the difference between the characters in game and CGI models, but they're also to blame for the plate sky model error).
I mean, it's not so much a CC church than a real different church. The differences between the two are huge, but also... to simply put it, not possible. So it's probably more like a skybox error :/
Edit: Sreliata works for the game industry, FYI, so she's good at modeling etc.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Aww snap.
There you go. Thank you
I figured it might be a different model, but I wasn't sure. But more than anything, it is clear that the church is different.
It's the Sector 5 Church of Crisis Core. And like Zack's Buster Sword, it's design has been updated to fit the Remake's aesthetics, while still calling back to the important key features that differentiate it from the present FFVII-R rendition of said church.
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
I don't even understand the argument. Passage of time? When is this supposed to take place then? Years in the past?
Idk, I'm applying Occam's Razor. Lighting differences and the fact that Visual Works uses different models for the CG than the in-game stuff account for the minor differences.
Any other argument just leads to Stamp's friends nonsense.
Idk, I'm applying Occam's Razor. Lighting differences and the fact that Visual Works uses different models for the CG than the in-game stuff account for the minor differences.
Any other argument just leads to Stamp's friends nonsense.
JBedford
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- JBed
Okay, so the churches are different.
How are we using this to indicate parallel timelines?
Any differences found between Zack's present day scenes and scenes of the pre-singularity Party can be explained because the Party was on the ZackDies timeline, and (like with the Stamp design) the church is different in the ZackLives timeline.
I don't even get what the church being like the Crisis Core church could possibly indicate. That the difference between the church in the Zack scene and the one in FFVIIR proper is... three months of wear?
Edit: Yeah, I'm just baffled. I don't get what they're trying to indicate. Maybe different points in time is the simplest explanation.
How are we using this to indicate parallel timelines?
Any differences found between Zack's present day scenes and scenes of the pre-singularity Party can be explained because the Party was on the ZackDies timeline, and (like with the Stamp design) the church is different in the ZackLives timeline.
I don't even get what the church being like the Crisis Core church could possibly indicate. That the difference between the church in the Zack scene and the one in FFVIIR proper is... three months of wear?
Edit: Yeah, I'm just baffled. I don't get what they're trying to indicate. Maybe different points in time is the simplest explanation.
Last edited:
Eerie
Fire and Blood
So you mean he's travelled back in time? Honestly I don't think it is it. Also your problem is that... with a merge of two realities, some things are going to take from one reality and some things from another, it's a mix. To me, this proves about nothing. The problem that it poses with Zack living in the same reality is, however, the thing hinting truly at an AU.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I don't even understand the argument. Passage of time? When is this supposed to take place then? Years in the past?
Idk, I'm applying Occam's Razor. Lighting differences and the fact that Visual Works uses different models for the CG than the in-game stuff account for the minor differences.
Any other argument just leads to Stamp's friends nonsense.
So why would they make an entirely separate model of the Sector 5 church for Zack's ending if its meant to just be the same as the one shown in FFVII-R?
Especially when it clearly has similarities to the Church's appearance in Crisis Core when it was less dilapidated?
It's clear that Zack is not in the same timeline or present that the characters in FFVII-R inhabit. They're in the "future" relative to Zack.
The "argument" is that Zack is in a separate past timeline, with the time frame taking place right after Crisis Core. September of Eya 007. That ending is a continuation of him making it to Midgar while carrying Cloud on his shoulder and then proceeding to meet up with Aerith. Only to find she isn't there. Those mourners in the church aren't refugees from the Sector 7 platefall.
Just like Zack was experiencing the final battle of Crisis Core during Cloud and the party's fight with Sephiroth in Chapter 18. And because of the intervention from Cloud and the others through destroying the Whispers Zack survived. The ending in Intermission is simply a continuation of what we saw in FFVII-R's ending.
How is Zack present with the main characters of FFVII-R if he's clearly in the past? Not just the past, but the past where he survived, which is a paradox for several characters, particularly Cloud. There aren't 2 Buster Swords. Zack simply exists in a new past created by his survival thanks to Cloud and the others.
Shademp
420
^
Yup, the game really tugged at my nostalgia strings with those scenes. Not even gonna try to pretend it didn't.
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
Probably why any CG by Visual Works uses different models for everything, presumably because you can't just dump the in-engine stuff into whatever they use to animate that shit and call it a day
Which makes more sense than this half-destroyed chuch being squeaky clean white for years but suddenly turning "brown" within the few months between CC and VII. And it's not even that, it's literally just the lighting.
Again, this is Stamp's friends territory for me.
