SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Shademp]

The simplest explanation to me is that Visual Works (apparently they have changed their name to Square Enix Image Studio Division, yeah sorry that's not gonna stick ) were given visual references from most of FF7 franchise history, but ultimately they decided to take their own liberties with the church designs because that's what creative artists do: Take liberties and pride in doing their own work. If the divisions of Square was adamant on Visual Works to copy the designs from the real-time renderings, then there wouldn't be such a gap between how our main characters look in-engine versus how they look in FMVs.

I take this as a sign that other divisions in Square are not comfortable with walking up to the SE Image Studio Division and saying "HEY, DON'T DETRACT! COPY THE PLANS EXACTLY FROM THE REAL-TIME STUFF!"

Let us also not forget Rule #1 of Midgar: If it doesn't show design/architectural inconsistencies between scenes, it's not a TRUE Midgar.

 

[Eerie]

No. What I mean is: if the church in Zack's timeline is more reminiscent to the church in CC, then the Remake church makes *no sense*. It should not be *that* different from the church in CC, but it is. So the Remake timeline can only be a parallel universe to the OG and the CC timelines.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The simplest explanation to me is that Visual Works (apparently they have changed their name to Square Enix Image Studio Division, yeah sorry that's not gonna stick ) were given reference from most of FF7 franchise history, but ultimately they decided to take their own liberties with the church designs because that's what creative artists do: Take liberties and pride in doing their own work. If the divisions of Square was adamant on Visual Works to copy the designs from the real-time renderings, then there wouldn't be such a gap between how our main characters look in-engine versus how they look in FMVs.

And why would there be an inconsistency like that when they've went straight to designing Intermission after completing FFVII-R? Numerous visual cues and call backs exist that tie the church to Crisis Core's design (in a scene with Zack no less) yet you think that's by accident/coincidence? These aren't character models, these are textures that are opposite in appearance. Textures that show a church in disrepair and dilapidation. And textures that show a church in a newer, cleaner and brighter light.

After we've seen how much painstaking detail was made to recreate the locations from FFVII, such as the Shinra Building, Wall Market, etc, you think that they somehow accidentally made one church clean and reminiscent of CC, while another is dilapidated and brown like FFVII?

There is consistency. It's just with a past church reminiscent of Crisis Core, which just so happens to be when Zack's final battle took place, where he then he began marching towards Midgar to see Aerith.

No. What I mean is: if the church in Zack's timeline is more reminiscent to the church in CC, then the Remake church makes *no sense*. It should not be *that* different from the church in CC, but it is. So the Remake timeline can only be a parallel universe to the OG and the CC timelines.

The church has changed in every depiction of the Compilation of FFVII. It changing from how it looked in Crisis Core to now is not that unusual.

 

[Shademp]

It was humorous to watch Intermission while believing that I had been spoiled about Genesis appearing at the end. In actuality I had just misinterpreted what somebody else said online. I still believe that Genesis will appear sooner or later in the FF7R series, but because I was expecting a Genesis revealed I ended up *almost* feeling like Intermission didn't have enough surprises.

 

[Eerie]

The church has changed in every depiction of the Compilation of FFVII. It changing from how it looked in Crisis Core to now is not that unusual.

In short, if there is a universe merging, it will be a new church... so it makes sense in that perspective. And I still think it's something ala skybox error, due to the CGI team lol.

 

[waw]

I don't even understand the argument. Passage of time? When is this supposed to take place then? Years in the past?

Idk, I'm applying Occam's Razor. Lighting differences and the fact that Visual Works uses different models for the CG than the in-game stuff account for the minor differences.

Any other argument just leads to Stamp's friends nonsense.

Zack's Death and Cloud's Midgar arrival happens at what... September something, right?
And the Midgar Escape/plate fall happens in early December.

So in theory, if Zack survived his fight and heads straight to the church, it could look a bit fresher by a manner of months/weeks. Yes, the developer could chalk up these changes to time. Maybe Zack gets so pissed, he throws out the pews and puts a big whole in the floor.

Or, there's parallel universes here with small differences between them and the game is highlighting those on purpose.

Or...

The simplest explanation to me is that Visual Works (apparently they have changed their name to Square Enix Image Studio Division, yeah sorry that's not gonna stick ) were given visual references from most of FF7 franchise history, but ultimately they decided to take their own liberties with the church designs because that's what creative artists do

As Shademp said, there's NOTHING significant going on here whatsoever and it's just developer's rendering that creates the issues we see. Mako's theory isn't confirmed, but this is a head scratcher, and if it's an accident, it's quite the weird one.

No. What I mean is: if the church in Zack's timeline is more reminiscent to the church in CC, then the Remake church makes *no sense*. It should not be *that* different from the church in CC, but it is. So the Remake timeline can only be a parallel universe to the OG and the CC timelines.

I hope y'all are ready. FF7 Remake Part 7 will be a Crisis of 7 Gaias (a la DC's Crisis of Infinite Earths) with a Legion of Doom consisting entirely of Sephiroths show up to collapse all of reality/FF7 multiverses into one FFSephi-verse. Clouds upon Clouds will show up allowing you to have a Cloud Party as you fight. But don't worry, the realities will all converge afterward. There'll be the Original Timeline Cloud now going by Nimbus (and later, we'll find out an evil version survived, going by Cumulous).

The Sephiroths will do the Fusion Dance and being Seephiroth a la Luuke or some crazy shit....

OR, it's just some art errors that are incredibly misleading. I have an on going theory that fans catch way more details than creators intend! It's a very original theory.

That said, I hope Mako is right on this one.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ironically, I thought the Stamp design change between the one in the ending and the entire game itself was simply a meaningless difference.

Yet that was proven false.

The designers/artists aren't as careless as you make them out to be. If you wish to believe that an entirely different church with textures, layout and motifs reminiscent of Crisis Core is a result of errors with no intentionality... Then as confirmed before, you'll be surprised.

They clearly didn't make that church with zero planning, intention or meaning. They make effort to call attention to differences concerning Zack given his significance, as shown with Stamp before. And this is clearly evocative of that.

As Shademp said, there's NOTHING significant going on here whatsoever and it's just developer's rendering that creates the issues we see. Mako's theory isn't confirmed, but this is a head scratcher, and if it's an accident, it's quite the weird one.

The significance is the fact Zack made it to Midgar's Sector 5 Church alive. And he's looking for Aerith but she's gone and in her place are a bunch of people crying. Seemingly in mourning.

You think that's meaningless?

OR, it's just some art errors that are incredibly misleading. I have an on going theory that fans catch way more details than creators intend! It's a very original theory.

Even at their worst, the writers never pull meaningless or misleading shit like that. So again, I am extremely doubtful that the designers just happened to coincidentally manifest a church that's brighter, cleaner and evocative of CC with no meaning attached to it. In a scene with Zack, no less.

 

[waw]

The designers/artists aren't as careless as you make them out to be. If you wish to believe that an entirely different church with textures, layout and motifs reminiscent of Crisis Core is a result of errors with no intentionality...
You think that's meaningless?

Sometimes I wonder if you actually read posts other than your own. I've been very supportive of your theory and helped point out some of these differences. Nothing you've posted though confirms an alternate timeline or intentionality, or discrepencies by design in this case. I agree, I think it will be the case, but if we start pulling in all the art differences by different art teams at different generations, we'll end up in a series of multiverses that are totally different because each of these discrepencies.

How do I say this? It's strong evidence, but not proof? Does that help? I could see these all being errors, but I don't really believe that'll be the case. Do you understand?

The "nothing significant" is in the church changes only. I really shouldn't have to clarify that, that's all I talked about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sometimes I wonder if you actually read posts other than your own. I've been very supportive of your theory and helped point out some of these differences. Nothing you've posted though confirms an alternate timeline or intentionality, or discrepencies by design in this case. I agree, I think it will be the case, but if we start pulling in all the art differences by different art teams at different generations, we'll end up in a series of multiverses that are totally different because each of these discrepencies.

How do I say this? It's strong evidence, but not proof? Does that help? I could see these all being errors, but I don't really believe that'll be the case. Do you understand?

The "nothing significant" is in the church changes only. I really shouldn't have to clarify that, that's all I talked about.

Ummm.... I wasn't responding to you there.

That was actually in response to Shademp because his post was right underneath mine and I cba to quote it, however because posts were made while typing mine, the layout changed. But no, I wasn't replying to you there. Because yes, I am in agreement with you, lol

The parts quoted in my post were in direct response to you.

 

[Tetsujin]

I mean for one thing I think claiming it's *entirely* different is not even accurate. There are very minor differences and they don't call attention to them like they did with Stamp.

There are a way bigger inconsistencies that are in the game where they just didn't give a fuck

Like sector 7 being buried completely under the plate and yet the slums are still there with nary a hint of the mountain of rubble that should, at the very least, surround the slums if it didn't entirely bury them.

Yes I'm still salty about this like where the fuck is it

 

[Shademp]

Looking forward to the Ultimania translations to settle all these matters...

Like sector 7 being buried completely under the plate and yet the slums are still there with nary a hint of the mountain of rubble that should, at the very least, surround the slums if it didn't entirely bury them.

^...except for this part, obviously. No Ultimania will even attempt to salvage a reasonable explanation for these oddities. It is known since Dirge of Cerberus lore of old that the Sector 7 plate magically disappeared and nothing underneath was crushed.

 

[Odysseus]

Somebody picked up the pizza slice before it went bad. 5 second rule.

 

[Theozilla]

There's also a sector 6 plate above sector 7 in the ending, so

Sigh, this and the Sector 5 slums having the Sector 6 slums skybox will always bug me. I wonder if it just hasn’t been noticed by SE? Or if they have noticed, do they just not care enough to put resources into correcting it? Or is there some scene breaking deal in regards to the lighting that requires the Sector 6 slums’ skybox to be reused where it shouldn’t be? (it’s especially befuddling when some of the early trailers did show the Sector 5 slums with the correct plate above for its skybox l)

 

[Shademp]

Oh and the rubble reflected in Yuffie's eye was just rubble all along.

imactingastonished.jpg
surprisedpikachuface.jpg

 

[Odysseus]

If anybody wants to use the INTERmission (not that dumb weapon) code that came with my physical game disc, here:

MEKK-C2NF-5KHL

I already just bought it on PSN because I'm stupid, so I don't need this code. Even if you don't have a PS5 you can still redeem it on PSN for later probably.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Some things regarding Whispers and Timelines I want to see people's reactions too...

When Zack has his Last Stand in Remake, the Whispers are never around him. They are only around the Troopers. Does this mean the Whispers aren't interfering in Zack's fate?

Zack "wins" the Last Stand *before* the Whisper Dome dissipates. The Whisper Dome dissipating does not cause Zack to win the Last Stand. Does this mean Zack "wins" the Last Stand *in spite* of the Whispers rather than *because* of them?

The Whisper Dome is first created in the "present" of Remake while Cloud and Co. are at the Highway. But then we see it in the Past with Zack as well. Could it mean that the Whisper Dome is a 4th Dimensional "object"?

When we see Cloud and Co. on the cliff in the Wasteland. It is mid-morning (at least). Given they went into the Singularity in the dead of night, is it possible the Singularity deposited them into the future by a few hours rather than where/when they should have been if they had never gone into the Singularity?

Zack's Last Stand, the cleaning up of Sector 7, and Biggs waking up all show the same golden particles of the dissipating Whisper Dome. Do all these happen at the same time?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Welp! Upon defeating Weiss in the VR Room... You get this...

 

[waw]

The parts quoted in my post were in direct response to you.

Just gonna see myself out over here.... XD My apologies!

I really hope this isn't the case of art accident and it's important to it all somehow. God, I'd love a Zack-led party.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Welp! Upon defeating Weiss in the VR Room... You get this...

So Hojo had his hooks in Weiss this early, huh?

Or maybe, Hojo was "playing" Weiss' combat simulator data, ala a fighting game?

 

[Tetsujin]

"Eitherway, see you in Deepground."

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Or maybe, Hojo was "playing" Weiss' combat simulator data, ala a fighting game?

I could totally see him doing this to see how good Cloud and Co. are...

He does it with Zack all the time in CC with Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis... and even Zack's own data at times.

 

[Roundhouse]

So we are all finally in agreement, and have narrowed the choices down to this:

A) Zack is in the same timeline and goes back to the church but Aeris has already left for Kalm, so Zack simply finds the people upset about the plate collapse there, and is worried and confused as a result.

B) Zack is in an alternate timeline, and when he goes to the church the people there are mourning the death of Aeris, and he's about to have his heart broken.

C) Zack was in an alternate timeline and is now phasing into the normal timeline because of temporal magic weirdness, and so a merge is occuring that will mean he is essentially in the same timeline.

D) Zack is in a completely different timeline with different events to anything we have seen thus far. Here, Cloud is the Sephiroth of the world and Sephiroth is the hero.

E) Zack is in the same timeline, but Genesis employed a troupe of actors to fill the church and make it seem like Aeris is dead. He has directed this play to fool Zack into giving up on her so that Zack will not mess up the timeline by confronting Cloud and co.

 

[Makoeyes987]

A) Zack is in the same timeline and goes back to the church but Aeris has already left for Kalm, so Zack simply finds the people upset about the plate collapse there, and is worried and confused as a result.

This seems the most unlikely due to the fact the church Zack enters is different than the one in FFVII-R. Not only that, its appearance resembles Crisis Core's design of the church from the past. That, coupled with the fact Zack's trek to Midgar with an unconscious Cloud happened right after his changed fate from Crisis Core's final battle, makes me feel it's unlikely he jumped forward in time to suddenly enter the present where a location mismatches what we see in the story. The fact this would be the second direct reference to Crisis Core after the first in Part 1's ending lends credence to them setting up this alternate fate for him here. I just don't see how all of that coupled with every other "spot the difference" visual cue we've had with Zack in this Remake so far, is a coincidence.

B) Zack is in an alternate timeline, and when he goes to the church the people there are mourning the death of Aeris, and he's about to have his heart broken.

D) Zack is in a completely different timeline with different events to anything we have seen thus far.

These seem the most possible, especially since Zack living through his last stand in Crisis Core already set the stage for us to have a different timeline with events never before seen. I mean, Zack was supposed to die. And thanks to Cloud and the others, he now lives.

I dunno if Aerith is dead but the scene certainly implies something is wrong there.

 

[waw]

A) Zack is in the same timeline and goes back to the church but Aeris has already left for Kalm, so Zack simply finds the people upset about the plate collapse there, and is worried and confused as a result.

I'm not terribly sold that this won't be the case. In some ways, it's the simplest storyline to pursue here. Zack, Biggs, Jesse, and any other characters that they want to not be dead could have their death-fates averted.

There's a timing issue that remains unresolved (when he died vs. when he's arriving to the church in canon) that could be resolved.

There's art discrepencies around the Church and Stamp. These could also get resolved to make this work. I'm think this is setting at a 3/5 likelihood for me.

B) Zack is in an alternate timeline, and when he goes to the church the people there are mourning the death of Aeris, and he's about to have his heart broken.

We have no clue to the second part there being the case but the people are mourning something. If Cloud never joins Avalanche, does Zack? Would they carry out their missions as normal? Probably not if Tifa isn't dragging Cloud into it. So maybe Avalanche dies/loses much earlier. There may be no party of heroes in this timeline. Aerith may or may not be dead as a result. I think the jury needs to be left out on this one. Zirconiade? Some other disaster? We just don't know, but in general option B, Zack in another timeline doing his own thing is still out there. That story would logically and likely have to intersect with FF7 Remake to give reason for so much emphasis and working going into it. 3/5 Likelihood.

C) Zack was in an alternate timeline and is now phasing into the normal timeline because of temporal magic weirdness, and so a merge is occuring that will mean he is essentially in the same timeline.

I think this is a real likelihood here. I'm going to say 5/5 It's a bit connected to the one above, but I think there needs to be some sort of convergence that's bringing things together. If Zack crossed over into this reality from his, it would give the players a voice exploring where alt-Sephiroth came from and how Aerith is semi-Alt-Aerith. He could pop into Minerva or something, or Genesis, to figure this stuff out. Hell, Genesis and Weiss from the end of DoC as Time Cops could be made into something worthwhile here.

D) Zack is in a completely different timeline with different events to anything we have seen thus far. Here, Cloud is the Sephiroth of the world and Sephiroth is the hero.

1/5 because we have yet to see good and evil inverted in any way. Although, if they're doing multiple timelines and the like, I'd really like to see a redemption for Sephiroth, even if it's in the form of one of his Remnants, perhaps one embodying his Humanity.

E) Zack is in the same timeline, but Genesis employed a troupe of actors to fill the church and make it seem like Aeris is dead. He has directed this play to fool Zack into giving up on her so that Zack will not mess up the timeline by confronting Cloud and co.

10/5

 

[Tetsujin]

Also, I just realized

what was up with that "Heretic Rayleigh" thing from the jpn soundtrack

I mean I know now what enemy it refers to (the boss in the VR simulator before you fight Nero) but like...what's the connection here