SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Wol]

We all know Zacks will take a different route and end up in Quadratum.

 

[Eerie]

Thus we consider scenarios of temporal displacement. When Zack opened the church doors he was either sent two months into the future (Terrier Timeline, December, year 0007) or sent into the main universe (Beagle Timeline, December, year 0007). This complicates matters beyond deduction. But if it WAS the Beagle Timeline Zack got sent into, it would remove the emotional impact of Aerith's death preventing a reunion between her and Zack. Ergo why I'm leaning more into this having all to do with events in the Terrier Timeline and not Zack suddenly jumping universe.

I do think that Zack has moved through time without realising it, in the singularity. As you said, if he had seen the plate missing, then he would have worried. However, we can summit that, if Shinra did indeed kill Barret, Tifa and probably someone else from Avalanche, would they make the pillar fall? Probably not. Besides, as I said, it's once the FFVII timeline starts that Zack and Aerith cannot be alive at the same time, ergo December. Whether the two timelines are merged or not remains to be seen (probably not).

How do we even know that the scene of Zack appearing at the church door follows chronologically from the scene in which he defeats the Shinra troopers? People are making a lot of assumptions, for a game which has so far shown it enjoys playing with time and exploding assumptions.

Well, he hasn't visibly seen Aerith for a long time (he's practicing in front of the church), so chronologically, that's the only time when it fits. Whether it's right after or in December is unknown, but if in the OG Aerith has survived until the OG timeline starts, there is no reason for her to die before FFVII starts. Logically, it makes no sense to have her die before that.

the theory that because Zack survived in his timeline and that this will lead to a chain reaction of bad things happening seems legit fucked up to me. Like it's such a dark and hopeless message that I can't really see the game going there.

However, and I've stated this for more than a year already, the fact is that Zack being alive threatens the FFVII plot. I keep telling this, and people keep disagreeing for whatever reasons, but it's Zack dying that makes FFVII possible, it's because he dies that Cloud is able to walk by himself to Midgar and the chain of "good" events go on. Plus, FFVII has always been dark, in all honestly, yes it's bright and colourful, but the story has always been dark, the characters have been wounded in ways we can't conceive.

So Zack being alive is pretty much a butterfly effect; if he's alive, Cloud can't meet up with Tifa, he remains in a comatose state, with mako poisoning. Barret and the Avalanche gang die early. FFVII doesn't start. Aerith gets taken (at best, it seems worst have happened there) by Shinra, and Hojo doesn't have pretty plans for her anyway. Red XIII remains as a prisonner in Hojo's hands. This is plainly what happens if Zack remains alive. Obviously, Zack didn't meet up with other refugees from sector 7, so we can guess that *at least* the plate fall did not happen in his reality.

 

[KindOfBlue]

BUT in chapter 14 we have seen the church and it was empty. So people did not gather there after the plate fall.

I’d chalk it up to inconsistency between the game and the prerendered cutscene but that aside, I don’t think it’s hard to imagine that some of the survivors who were still in Sector 7 (like the ones we see in chapter 15) might have gone to the church sometime after Cloud and the gang leave Sector 5 to go to Shinra HQ

How do we even know that the scene of Zack appearing at the church door follows chronologically from the scene in which he defeats the Shinra troopers? People are making a lot of assumptions, for a game which has so far shown it enjoys playing with time and exploding assumptions.

I’d say it’s a fair assumption that he got there after defeating the Shinra troops since Midgar was his destination, question is when exactly did he get to the church I suppose

I mostly gave up on trying to meaningfully guess at the future story because I know I'll probably be wrong anyway. I've found that being to certain of any one theory is a great way to be disappointed anyway.

My thoughts exactly, me defending the single-timeline theory has less to do with me thinking that’s what’s actually happening and more to do with us not still having any idea what the hell is going on lol

 

[Theozilla]

Before the Yuffie DLC was released I considered the possibility that they would somehow make her encounter with Deepground still congruent with the Dirge of Cerberus plot. In most aspects you could still make an argument that the Yuffie we see in Dirge of Cerberus is retro-actively the same Yuffie we now see in Remake.

The main dent in that notion now is the fact that Nero is directly responsible for the death of Yuffie's comrade. It's impossible to place Remake-Yuffie in Dirge of Cerberus and not have her react strongly to facing Sonon's killer. True, AC-Tifa on a chipper phone call with Reno is an impossible scene that still manages to exist.

When reasonable logic is applied however, DoC-Yuffie never met Nero three years prior (not even retroactively) and certainly didn't have her comrade killed by him. If this will ultimately *mean* anything is up to the future but everybody already knows the camp I'm in: The FF7R series will find a way to resolve Deepground, Hojo, Omega Weapon etc before Meteorfall and lead to Dirge of Cerberus not happening in the new timeline. If the FF7R series ends with the old status quo, with the old post-OG continuity still happening, then ALL THE SHENANIGANS with Whispers, changing fate etc will feel LEAGUES more pointless than it already does.

I think your overthinking trying to reconcile new material introduce in media that is a “prequel” to media made earlier. The the Watsonian reason reason why Yuffie doesn’t react strongly to Nero in DoC despite encountering him in Intermission is the same “reason” why Cloud doesn’t mention Genesis in the OG Nibelheim flashback, it’s whatever is beholden to the Doylistic motivations of the creators.

It’s the same phenomenon as “why” Darth Vader doesn’t react significantly to C3P-0 in the OT, or why Chewbacca doesn’t bring up Yoda to Luke, or why Luke still even has Skywalker as a last name. It’s because the prequel stuff was created later and the creatives are more concerned with doing emotional storytelling (and/or adding fun fan service) than being concerned with whether the nitty gritty plot details are super consistent with each other or require significant reconciliation for the suspension of disbelief.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

I do think that Zack has moved through time without realising it, in the singularity. As you said, if he had seen the plate missing, then he would have worried. However, we can summit that, if Shinra did indeed kill Barret, Tifa and probably someone else from Avalanche, would they make the pillar fall? Probably not. Besides, as I said, it's once the FFVII timeline starts that Zack and Aerith cannot be alive at the same time, ergo December. Whether the two timelines are merged or not remains to be seen (probably not).



Well, he hasn't visibly seen Aerith for a long time (he's practicing in front of the church), so chronologically, that's the only time when it fits. Whether it's right after or in December is unknown, but if in the OG Aerith has survived until the OG timeline starts, there is no reason for her to die before FFVII starts. Logically, it makes no sense to have her die before that.



However, and I've stated this for more than a year already, the fact is that Zack being alive threatens the FFVII plot. I keep telling this, and people keep disagreeing for whatever reasons, but it's Zack dying that makes FFVII possible, it's because he dies that Cloud is able to walk by himself to Midgar and the chain of "good" events go on. Plus, FFVII has always been dark, in all honestly, yes it's bright and colourful, but the story has always been dark, the characters have been wounded in ways we can't conceive.

So Zack being alive is pretty much a butterfly effect; if he's alive, Cloud can't meet up with Tifa, he remains in a comatose state, with mako poisoning. Barret and the Avalanche gang die early. FFVII doesn't start. Aerith gets taken (at best, it seems worst have happened there) by Shinra, and Hojo doesn't have pretty plans for her anyway. Red XIII remains as a prisonner in Hojo's hands. This is plainly what happens if Zack remains alive. Obviously, Zack didn't meet up with other refugees from sector 7, so we can guess that *at least* the plate fall did not happen in his reality.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that tho. Logically that should be the outcome of things, I just think it would be messed up to make that kind of story for two characters that really don't deserve any of this. Like the moral of their story would be "some people just need to die for good things to happen" like even though that might be true it's such a heavy and morally complex situation that I just can't see the devs really going for that.

 

[Shademp]

it’s whatever is beholden to the Doylistic motivations of the creators.

My reasoning is indeed reliant on the author caring about Yuffie's reactions in DoC being consistent with the new lore of Remake. They very well may not care for such consistency. I hope they do, though.

 

[Deleted member 13557]

Watched Max play this; I'm not gonna get a PS5 any time soon and I'd probably be spoiled regardless so

Don't really have a lot of thoughts on this one. Cool seeing Yuffie, ending was neat.

Then there's the Deepground bollocks

 

[Theozilla]

My reasoning is indeed reliant on the author caring about Yuffie's reactions in DoC being consistent with the new lore of Remake. They very well may not care for such consistency. I hope they do, though.

Well, I personally wouldn’t hold my breath for it. Considering how “prequel” storytelling and these creative in particular have demonstrated in the past, I wouldn’t expect them to be as pedantic as we fans are.
Remember we’re all easily one pitfall from being these Simpson’s clips, if not already in it.

 

[Eerie]

Zack and Aerith are that kind of couple that can only reunite in death. Is it cruel? Yes, but it's always been their fate. I expect both of them to still die by the end of Remake. The only way for it to not happen would be:

- a merging storylines
- Zack managing to save Aerith (I believe that only he can do that)
- throwing the Lifestream scene before Aerith's death (not happening, Aerith dying is part of Cloud's fall).

However, Cloud failing Aerith is part of his story and... most of all Aerith needs to die to save the planet. I don't really know why people focus on Holy, which she manages to cast before dying anyway, but Aerith is needed in the Lifestream to counter Sephiroth, even moreso with the whole Compilation information. That is something she can't do while alive (because she hasn't been taught by the Cetras how to do Cetras stuff) and the only true way to save the planet. Zack and Aerith's story is tragic. And whatever SE is doing with Remake, is to double down on FFVII's story's characteristics, to expand each facet. So Zack and Aerith's story will be *even more tragic*.

Edit: this was for @a_apple 2.0 sighhhhhh. thread moving too fast, etc.

 

[Odysseus]

Honestly I was just impressed that not once does Yuffie indicate she doesn't know what DG is or who Nero is at any point in DoC. It's probably good enough in their eyes.

 

[Roundhouse]

I thought Aerith needing to be dead to defeat Sephiroth was a fan myth? From what I recall, what actually allowed them to beat Roth was.....well, going into the crater and beating him, because he was able to suppress Holy before that anyway.

 

[Theozilla]

I thought Aerith needing to be dead to defeat Sephiroth was a fan myth? From what I recall, what actually allowed them to beat Roth was.....well, going into the crater and beating him, because he was able to suppress Holy before that anyway.

I think it’s a misunderstanding from after Holy failed, Aerith being dead in order to help rally the Lifestream to push back Meteor is what was necessary. So no, if Holy had gone off earlier, it would have presumably been able to push back Meteor on its own, and Holy didn’t need Aerith dead for it to work. But once Holy failed, the Lifestream needing a kick in butt to start up was implied to be significantly due to Aerith being dead.

 

[Eerie]

Yes basically what the Compilation tells us is that Aerith is needed in the Lifestream to counter Sephiroth. She's the only one who can go against him, and can only do so from the Lifestream. So her surviving would be problematic - she casted Holy but it failed to move, and I did think during the OG that she had managed to cast it. However, because of Sephiroth, it couldn't move, basically failing.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

However, Cloud failing Aerith is part of his story and... most of all Aerith needs to die to save the planet. I don't really know why people focus on Holy, which she manages to cast before dying anyway, but Aerith is needed in the Lifestream to counter Sephiroth, even moreso with the whole Compilation information. That is something she can't do while alive (because she hasn't been taught by the Cetras how to do Cetras stuff).

once Holy failed, the Lifestream needing a kick in butt to start up was implied to be significantly due to Aerith being dead

Aerith has been talking to the Cetra in the Lifestream ever since she was at ToA. They're the reason she even know to go to the Forgotten City to cast Holy to begin with. We even see her talking to Cetra outside ToA and inside ToA. So it's safe to say she was probably talking with them all the way to the Forgotten City. If you go by the novella Picturing the Past, Aerith has talked to the Cetra and the Lifestream when she was a kid. And the OG has her talking to Ifalna in the Lifestream at the Church after Ifalna dies. So... Aerith can talk to Cetra in the Lifestream just fine. She's been doing it her entire life.

It's also canon that Cetra can control the Lifestream while alive. This is why Shinra wanted to find the Cetra in the first place and make a hybrid of them. We also see Aerith control the Lifestream in Remake! She does... something... to Sephrioth's portal to the Singuarity that turns it white. That's her controlling the Lifestream while she's alive. So no, Aerith doesn't *have* to be dead to stop Meteor. Or Raise the Lifestream. She can do it while she's alive. Death just isn't a *hurdle* for her ability to do that.

Incidently, the one place that goes into Aerith in the Lifestream in detail, Case of Lifestream - White, never has Aerith raising the Lifestream to push back Meteor. Even though Case of Lifestream - Black goes into Sephiroth trying to protect Meteor from the rest of the Lifestream. The OG is very vague on if Aerith actually *is* controlling the Lifestream at the end also. So there's room to think that Aerith might not have had anything to do with the end of the OG at all and it was the Lifestream acting independently of her that was acting against Meteor.

By NKN's own admission, the entire point of Aerith's death is that it's *pointless*. No one gains anything from it. Not Sephrioth, not the Planet, not Cloud. Up until Aerith, NKN felt like the deaths in FF games were done with a sense of "gaining" something for the story from them. So you'd get people sacrificing themselves so someone else could go on, etc. Aerith's death has always been meant as a contrast to that. Her death "doesn't work" if something is gained from it based on what NKN were doing with it.

From FFVII 10th Anniversary Discussion:

You can’t talk about FFVII’s heroines without talking about the tragedy that befalls Aerith at the Forgotten City. That event was a very memorable scene not only for the FF series, but all RPGs.

Kitase: In the past FFs as well, important characters died and went away. Like Galuf in FFV for example, they followed a pattern where the character would go down after giving it his all in a fight. In this case, often it went that the characters think something like, they’ve tired so hard, and just accept the death and overcome it. When creating stories I think that is an option, but in FFVII we were thinking, could we take this a step further? Bring out a sense of loss somehow? What I didn’t want to have was the kind of story development where even when a character dies there’s no sense of loss, on the contrary it just raises motivation and pushes you forward.

Nojima: Kitase’s loss talk has been consistent since back then.

Kitase: And with a lot of stories, before they die there’s a lot of dramatic preparations, aren’t there? Like a “pre-prepared excitement”, or “using this as a step to fight evil further”, those are the kinds of developments I wanted to avoid. In reality, death comes without warning, and you’re left feeling dazed at the gravity of the loss… Rather than wanting to fight evil, you’re just overcome by a great sense of loss, like you just want to give up everything. I was in charge of the direction of that scene, and I tried to bring out that sort of sense of realism.

Nomura: It’s related to ‘life’, one of the themes of FFVII, so it’s not portrayed as a “death for excitement’s sake” but expresses a realistic pain. Death comes suddenly, so I think the emotion there wasn’t excitement or anything, but sadness.

Nojima: Speaking from a scenario standpoint, FFVII is ‘a story of life cycling through the planet’, so someone needed to be part of that cycle. In other words, although what happened to Aerith isn’t really based on logic, as far as the story goes, maybe one of the team was destined to lose their life from the very start. But how that one became Aerith wasn’t decided through a notice as is popularly mentioned. It was decided after everyone, including myself, racked our brains about what to do.

 

[Theozilla]

Aerith has been talking to the Cetra in the Lifestream ever since she was at ToA. They're the reason she even know to go to the Forgotten City to cast Holy to begin with. We even see her talking to Cetra outside ToA and inside ToA. So it's safe to say she was probably talking with them all the way to the Forgotten City. If you go by the novella Picturing the Past, Aerith has talked to the Cetra and the Lifestream when she was a kid. And the OG has her talking to Ifalna in the Lifestream at the Church after Ifalna dies. So... Aerith can talk to Cetra in the Lifestream just fine. She's been doing it her entire life.

It's also canon that Cetra can control the Lifestream while alive. This is why Shinra wanted to find the Cetra in the first place and make a hybrid of them. We also see Aerith control the Lifestream in Remake! She does... something... to Sephrioth's portal to the Singuarity that turns it white. That's her controlling the Lifestream while she's alive. So no, Aerith doesn't *have* to be dead to stop Meteor. Or Raise the Lifestream. She can do it while she's alive. Death just isn't a *hurdle* for her ability to do that.

By NKN's own admission, the entire point of Aerith's death is that it's *pointless*. No one gains anything from it. Not Sephrioth, not the Planet, not Cloud. Up until Aerith, NKN felt like the deaths in FF games were done with a sense of "gaining" something for the story from them. So you'd get people sacrificing themselves so someone else could go on, etc. Aerith's death has always been meant as a contrast to that. Her death "doesn't work" if something is gained from it based on what NKN were doing with it.

From FFVII 10th Anniversary Discussion:

The Lifestream getting a last-minute rally from Aerith doesn’t contradict what NKN stated, the point is that it’s literally a last minute thing in the OG. The cast and player has no idea that Aerith could/would even help the Lifestream repel Meteor until the literal last cutscenes of the OG, the surprise is part of the point. The “pointless” and “not gaining anything” is in reference to how Holy didn’t require Aerith being dead (plus the thematic/narrative purpose behind it), and how her dying didn’t help with Holy (other than the fact she was able to cast it before being killed).

 

[Roundhouse]

So to put it in simple terms:

Aerith doesn't need to be dead for Sephiroth to be defeated IF she casts/activates Holy earlier than she did in the OG?

 

[Eerie]

While this is true, in the light of Lifestream White and Black, I do feel that she's the necessary good to Sephiroth's evil? Her role has definitely changed since the OG to me.

 

[Theozilla]

So to put it in simple terms:

Aerith doesn't need to be dead for Sephiroth to be defeated IF she casts/activates Holy earlier than she did in the OG?

Sorta, it’s more if the party had defeated Sephiroth at the Northern Crater faster/earlier, Holy would have been released earlier and thus would have been able to push back Meteor without the Lifestream’s help because Meteor wouldn’t have been so close to impact when Holy actually was released.

 

[Roundhouse]

Ah, so the key here is Sephiroth. Defeat him earlier and Aerith lives, wait too long and Aerith needs to be dead (barring any new stuff they introduce). Make it happen, Zack.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah but they don't meet the real Sephiroth before Aerith dies so there's that ^^'

 

[Theozilla]

Ah, so the key here is Sephiroth. Defeat him earlier and Aerith lives, wait too long and Aerith needs to be dead (barring any new stuff they introduce). Make it happen, Zack.

I mean, defeating Sephiroth earlier doesn’t mean Aerith lives, she’s already dead by that point. Defeating Sephiroth earlier just means the Lifestream doesn’t need to be rallied (which Aerith is involved in) to help Holy repel Meteor.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Sephiroth isn't really alive or dead. He's both a presence in the physical world and the "spiritual" world. Aerith is a Cetra and by nature is also in both worlds. In the OG, her power to influence the physical world was extremely limited. Sephiroth could do stuff she couldn't because he could opperate in the phsical world in ways she didn't want to as someone who was already dead. Having Aerith alive actually puts her on more even footing than if she's dead.

It's also noteworthy that everything we know about how the Cetra interacted with the Planet is about them while they were alive. How they talked with the Planet and cultivated life energy on it and healed the Planet. Nothing actually goes into what the Cetra could do while dead. In fact, the most we see them do is give Aerith advice. They don't actually *do* anything to impact the physical world.

 

[Fiz]

Yeah I don't think there's a crossing lines thing. I think at the very end of the spectrum of possibilities, we do have a "merging realities" ala what Nomura already did in another game apparently (KH series?). But the bet is clearly safer with two timelines (even if I enjoy looking at the merging realities one because my brain works like that, and who doesn't like poking at Mako lol).

The thing is, if we expect Zack to be there in another reality... then at *some point* he will have to interact with the "OG" timeline. It makes no sense to have him there, on an alternate reality, and to do nothing with it (because he's not the hero, we're not going to focus on his story).

To me the merging realities does have the appeal of solving how tf does Zack rejoin the party. Because they are in the same world now, so it's easily solvable, unlike the second timeline where Aerith has to juggle with another singularity to maybe bring him back? Unlikely. The two Cloud in Northern Crater would be absolutely siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick and a big reason why I'm not letting the merging worlds theory die just yet lol (I did say my brain liked that kind of puzzles didn't I? XD).

I agree. I think, whatever the mechanism, we have one timeline with all characters in it. I just don’t see Zack not being involved with the main group. That would burn too many opportunities for character stories and development.

It’s also possible that to prevent duplicates of the characters all duplicates have met untimely ends. Resulting in a world where we have all the characters and various things have changed.

 

[Theozilla]

Sephiroth isn't really alive or dead. He's both a presence in the physical world and the "spiritual" world. Aerith is a Cetra and by nature is also in both worlds. In the OG, her power to influence the physical world was extremely limited. Sephiroth could do stuff she couldn't because he could opperate in the phsical world in ways she didn't want to as someone who was already dead. Having Aerith alive actually puts her on more even footing than if she's dead.

It's also noteworthy that everything we know about how the Cetra interacted with the Planet is about them while they were alive. How they talked with the Planet and cultivated life energy on it and healed the Planet. Nothing actually goes into what the Cetra could do while dead. In fact, the most we see them do is give Aerith advice. They don't actually *do* anything to impact the physical world.

No, no, we do see some pseudo-dead Cetra in the OG, the “Black Mage”/nyum-nyums from the Temple. They specifically are/were tasked with guarding the temple according to Aerith.

 

[Fiz]

I honestly expect the digitization tech to be something President Shinra expected to use to live forever. He's big enough egomaniac and hates Rufus enough to never want to pass on or believe he has a true heir. He likes showing up as a hologram. Having his mind downloaded, living forever in Neo-Midgar as the eternal president seems like a plausible goal for this guy.

Hojo was just his tool to achieve it but Hojo had his own plans. #headcanon



I expect we'll see Zack being pinned as a sort of Last Whisper meant to fix the timeline or save things and he'll get to reunite with and/or save Aerith. I know, folks expect her to still die, and I could see that happening and it's a very important plot element. But if Zack lives, he'll save Aerith. Even if it means sacrificing himself.

If Zack is in the Remake timeline/universe, Aerith won't die.

I think Aerith is the... erm... payoff. But I’m not convinced she will live, as I’ve speculated before, I think she’s “something else” in Remake. Probably some form of “already dead”.