SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Theozilla]

So to put it in simple terms:

Aerith doesn't need to be dead for Sephiroth to be defeated IF she casts/activates Holy earlier than she did in the OG?

Sorta, it’s more if the party had defeated Sephiroth at the Northern Crater faster/earlier, Holy would have been released earlier and thus would have been able to push back Meteor without the Lifestream’s help because Meteor wouldn’t have been so close to impact when Holy actually was released.

 

[Roundhouse]

Ah, so the key here is Sephiroth. Defeat him earlier and Aerith lives, wait too long and Aerith needs to be dead (barring any new stuff they introduce). Make it happen, Zack.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah but they don't meet the real Sephiroth before Aerith dies so there's that ^^'

 

[Theozilla]

Ah, so the key here is Sephiroth. Defeat him earlier and Aerith lives, wait too long and Aerith needs to be dead (barring any new stuff they introduce). Make it happen, Zack.

I mean, defeating Sephiroth earlier doesn’t mean Aerith lives, she’s already dead by that point. Defeating Sephiroth earlier just means the Lifestream doesn’t need to be rallied (which Aerith is involved in) to help Holy repel Meteor.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Sephiroth isn't really alive or dead. He's both a presence in the physical world and the "spiritual" world. Aerith is a Cetra and by nature is also in both worlds. In the OG, her power to influence the physical world was extremely limited. Sephiroth could do stuff she couldn't because he could opperate in the phsical world in ways she didn't want to as someone who was already dead. Having Aerith alive actually puts her on more even footing than if she's dead.

It's also noteworthy that everything we know about how the Cetra interacted with the Planet is about them while they were alive. How they talked with the Planet and cultivated life energy on it and healed the Planet. Nothing actually goes into what the Cetra could do while dead. In fact, the most we see them do is give Aerith advice. They don't actually *do* anything to impact the physical world.

 

[Fiz]

Yeah I don't think there's a crossing lines thing. I think at the very end of the spectrum of possibilities, we do have a "merging realities" ala what Nomura already did in another game apparently (KH series?). But the bet is clearly safer with two timelines (even if I enjoy looking at the merging realities one because my brain works like that, and who doesn't like poking at Mako lol).

The thing is, if we expect Zack to be there in another reality... then at *some point* he will have to interact with the "OG" timeline. It makes no sense to have him there, on an alternate reality, and to do nothing with it (because he's not the hero, we're not going to focus on his story).

To me the merging realities does have the appeal of solving how tf does Zack rejoin the party. Because they are in the same world now, so it's easily solvable, unlike the second timeline where Aerith has to juggle with another singularity to maybe bring him back? Unlikely. The two Cloud in Northern Crater would be absolutely siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick and a big reason why I'm not letting the merging worlds theory die just yet lol (I did say my brain liked that kind of puzzles didn't I? XD).

I agree. I think, whatever the mechanism, we have one timeline with all characters in it. I just don’t see Zack not being involved with the main group. That would burn too many opportunities for character stories and development.

It’s also possible that to prevent duplicates of the characters all duplicates have met untimely ends. Resulting in a world where we have all the characters and various things have changed.

 

[Theozilla]

Sephiroth isn't really alive or dead. He's both a presence in the physical world and the "spiritual" world. Aerith is a Cetra and by nature is also in both worlds. In the OG, her power to influence the physical world was extremely limited. Sephiroth could do stuff she couldn't because he could opperate in the phsical world in ways she didn't want to as someone who was already dead. Having Aerith alive actually puts her on more even footing than if she's dead.

It's also noteworthy that everything we know about how the Cetra interacted with the Planet is about them while they were alive. How they talked with the Planet and cultivated life energy on it and healed the Planet. Nothing actually goes into what the Cetra could do while dead. In fact, the most we see them do is give Aerith advice. They don't actually *do* anything to impact the physical world.

No, no, we do see some pseudo-dead Cetra in the OG, the “Black Mage”/nyum-nyums from the Temple. They specifically are/were tasked with guarding the temple according to Aerith.

 

[Fiz]

I honestly expect the digitization tech to be something President Shinra expected to use to live forever. He's big enough egomaniac and hates Rufus enough to never want to pass on or believe he has a true heir. He likes showing up as a hologram. Having his mind downloaded, living forever in Neo-Midgar as the eternal president seems like a plausible goal for this guy.

Hojo was just his tool to achieve it but Hojo had his own plans. #headcanon



I expect we'll see Zack being pinned as a sort of Last Whisper meant to fix the timeline or save things and he'll get to reunite with and/or save Aerith. I know, folks expect her to still die, and I could see that happening and it's a very important plot element. But if Zack lives, he'll save Aerith. Even if it means sacrificing himself.

If Zack is in the Remake timeline/universe, Aerith won't die.

I think Aerith is the... erm... payoff. But I’m not convinced she will live, as I’ve speculated before, I think she’s “something else” in Remake. Probably some form of “already dead”.

 

[Fiz]

Barret looks really good, Tifa and Cloud are OK but somehow... they botched Aerith's face IMHO :| She looks so very weird which is a shame because her lines and acting are very cute there.

I really dislike the CG models.


(Sorry for not using multiquote, it doesn’t seem to work on mobile... does anyone else have this?)

 

[Odysseus]

No, no, we do see some pseudo-dead Cetra in the OG, the “Black Mage”/nyum-nyums from the Temple. They specifically are/were tasked with guarding the temple according to Aerith.
View attachment 10161

Oh man, what the fuck are those gonna look like in the remake?

 

[LNK]

I'm not disagreeing with any of that tho. Logically that should be the outcome of things, I just think it would be messed up to make that kind of story for two characters that really don't deserve any of this. Like the moral of their story would be "some people just need to die for good things to happen" like even though that might be true it's such a heavy and morally complex situation that I just can't see the devs really going for that.

Could you have seen the devs using the whispers in remake?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Oh man, what the fuck are those gonna look like in the remake?

Probably something like this? The Temple of the Ancients is kinda nuts in terms of area design too. I imagine the entire area will get a massive face-life.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

No, no, we do see some pseudo-dead Cetra in the OG, the “Black Mage”/nyum-nyums from the Temple. They specifically are/were tasked with guarding the temple according to Aerith.

They're also nothing like what Aerith is in ACC or the end of the OG. She hasn't got a semi-physical body like that.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm almost certain the weird black mage esque designs will be retained, along with the Escher style interior design. Might ditch they Egyptian murals though.

 

[KindOfBlue]

My reasoning is indeed reliant on the author caring about Yuffie's reactions in DoC being consistent with the new lore of Remake. They very well may not care for such consistency. I hope they do, though.

Honestly I was just impressed that not once does Yuffie indicate she doesn't know what DG is or who Nero is at any point in DoC. It's probably good enough in their eyes.

Well, if we consider that this is a new version of FF7, then I imagine Remake’s version of DoC will either consider Yuffie’s new involvement OR we’re venturing towards something else altogether. So as far as DoC goes, the reason why Yuffie doesn’t seem to know about Nero or Deepground is because the events of INTERmission just didn’t happen in that continuity, that’s all.

 

[Theozilla]

They're also nothing like what Aerith is in ACC or the end of the OG. She hasn't got a semi-physical body like that.

True, but the Nyum-Nyums have been hanging in the temple for eons/1000s of years, also it’s implied the way they became pseudo-dead is different from the regular death that Aerith experienced.

Anyways this is largely irreverent to the general point of: Aerith didn’t need to die for Holy to succeed, Sephiroth just needed to be defeated earlier/faster, but since he wasn’t, the Lifestream was needed to aide Holy in destroying meteor, and “waking up” the Lifestream was something Aerith was able to even while dead; could she have done the “waking up” while alive too? Who knows, the OG never specified otherwise, and the Compilation seems to lean towards former notion. None of that contradicts the thematic significance NKN discuss about Aerith’s death specifically not being a deliberate sacrifice, but rather representative of senseless sudden loss.

 

[Roundhouse]

Obsidian made a good point in regard to no one looking over at Zack during his entrance: sometimes not everything in a scene is worked through in a realistic style, the priority can be emotion and the drama of the moment.

Part of me wondered why there are even people in the church, because it instinctively feels more dramatic to me if the church is empty. Then I realised that an empty church isn't actually dramatic at all in this case, because Zack would just think, 'well, maybe Aerith isn't around at the moment'. So how do you signal that something mysterious and negative may have happened, so that Zack has an apprioriately crushed and confused reaction?

I guess a group of upset people can do that. Now, if it's the plate fall, all you need to tackle is 'would Zack know about this before getting to the church or not?'. I'm not familiar enough with the geography of Midgar to answer that, though. If it's not plate fall, could it be that they think Aerith is still captured by Shinra? This alternative seems less likely, though. Of course, there is another theory floating around...Aerith is dead in this timeline. Possible, but I have a tricky time seeing where that leads, story-wise. Obviously Zack would be devastated, and.........then what?

 

[Lex]

Hi,

This DLC was very good. I was frownyface towards the end with the DoC stuff going on (that this happened with Yuffie present obviously has other implications) but overall I loved Yuffie, liked Sonon and the storyline of the DLC. As much as I know some of you were totes buzzing for a bit of DoC attention I felt like it was unnecessary and didn't really add anything to the narrative. That said, it was intended as fan-service anyway (a newcomer would have no fucking idea what was happening between Nero and Weiss, lmao). I was ambivalent towards the ending.

Until the CG started of course. Somehow that "new ending" with the gang made me feel slightly better about Remake's ending in general.

Re: Zack, I'm really excited that this confirms he's alive, even if it's an alternate timeline. But my gut feeling is that it only makes sense to go to the trouble of bringing Zack back if they're going to merge at some point, or if they're part of the same timeline. I actually hate this "timeline" chat so much lmao

I think I've decided that the whispers were invented by the team for the sole purpose of getting Zack back into the story (and giving them other creative freedoms with the future plot). I think the team came up with an idea down the line in the story that would require Zack to have survived, and they needed to find a way to make it happen. Which is how we are where we are now. I don't mind this, but it's pointless if he doesn't have some monumental impact on the old plot going forward.

More tomorrow when it's not 4am. We'll be streaming the Square Enix conference thing tonight so can discuss with those of you who want to pop on Discord.

 

[LNK]

That said, it was intended as fan-service anyway (a newcomer would have no fucking idea what was happening between Nero and Weiss, lmao)

This is why I still think Remake is interchangeable with OG in the compilation timeline. Unless we get a payoff with Nero and Weiss in remake, newcomers just have to play DoC to find out what happens to them

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Well... I just went through the opening of FFVII and compared it to the ending Church Scene. And there's a good... seven or eight people (potentially more) that crop up in both locations. There's also an indicator for "Sector 8" near an intersection. Weather it's pointing where people are coming from or going to is a bit fuzzy.

So I'd say it's very good odds that the people in the Church are people who used to live on the Plate and now are no longer on the Plate. Them either being from Sector 7/8 or going to Sector 7 seems... likely.

List of NPCs I've found in both locations...
construction workers
mako delivery men
woman with red/orange shirt
older woman with red shirt
boy with nice suit and cap
girl with dusk pink sweatshirt
man with black shirt and jeans

 

[Cae Lumis]

Another thing to consider is that perhaps if Zack was indeed time-displaced as a result of the events surrounding the Whisper Dome, then he does not necessarily have to have arrived to witness the events leading up to Sector 7's Plate Fall. Instead, he could be arriving into Sector 7 the same day as the Party leaving Midgar and arriving at Kalm, completely unaware that anything was amiss due to angle of approach he had to take to enter Midgar from the cliff side he was on when the battle ended.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Well... I just went through the opening of FFVII and compared it to the ending Church Scene. And there's a good... seven or eight people (potentially more) that crop up in both locations. There's also an indicator for "Sector 8" near an intersection. Weather it's pointing where people are coming from or going to is a bit fuzzy.

So I'd say it's very good odds that the people in the Church are people who used to live on the Plate and now are no longer on the Plate. Them either being from Sector 7/8 or going to Sector 7 seems... likely.

List of NPCs I've found in both locations...
construction workers
mako delivery men
woman with red/orange shirt
older woman with red shirt
boy with nice suit and cap
girl with dusk pink sweatshirt
man with black shirt and jeans

That's pretty interesting. Also keep in mind that one of the new Ultimanias (it was either "a walk through MIdgar" or the Material Ultimania) told us that the church in sector 5 was build for people to morn their dead loved ones so the fact that they put this information in there around the same time when they were probably working on the DLC is also kinda sus.

 

[Alex Strife]

List of NPCs I've found in both locations...
construction workers
mako delivery men
woman with red/orange shirt
older woman with red shirt
boy with nice suit and cap
girl with dusk pink sweatshirt
man with black shirt and jeans

Just to give a counter-point... I wouldn't discard them simply re-using assets. After all, this is CG* and it'd be faster, cheaper and easier to re-use the already existing models.

* That is also why I don't understand all the talk of "Church textures have changed". In theory, CG are just movie files so I don't think anyone could have extracted the textures... because CG textures shouldn't be in the game anyway. It's not real-time rendering.

 

[Claymore]

A few more non-timeline thoughts after letting it settle a bit.

SE really need to improve the implementation and timings of the mini-games / sidequests. It always feels far too abrupt and brings the overall tension and feel of the story to a grinding halt unceremoniously. They need to find a better way of introducing them without hurting the flow of the game.

If Sonon was a test for Cid, then I'm going to really enjoy playing as the foul-mouthed pilot.

I'm not sure how I feel about certain skills (like the Ninja Cannonball) being Materia. I kinda feel that they should be innately learnt, akin to the weapon proficiency system when you have synchronised with Sonon for some time. The fact that it might not ever be used again going forward just makes it redundant as a Materia (though I hope we see the move return with an eventual refined Team Attacks system they may implement in the future).

If the Sync feature is how they are going to implement AC style team up attacks, I'm more than down with that.

I love that, again, Shinra aren't stupid and were well aware of Yuffie and Sonon's infiltration. Scarlet really shined in this DLC.

The Happy Turtle music rocks. Not sure why the name was changed from Turtle's Paradise though?

I'm loving all the unique aspects of the characters which feel like it should have been in the original game. It's going to be so hard when eventually choosing your team mates.

The Whispers stopping Yuffie from entering Seventh Heaven was a neat touch. It was like "nope, we going all in on this shit lol".

Really hated the Roche addition. They hamed it up big time and it ruined the character even more. I did like that he is searching for Cloud though, as he should have been in the motorcycle chase at the end of the Remake.

So excited for Part 2.

 

[Odysseus]

I like how Roche's appearance here made a lot if people hate him even more, but I loved ever second of it lol. I guess I'm a sucker for ham, and he brings it in spades.

Until the CG started of course. Somehow that "new ending" with the gang made me feel slightly better about Remake's ending in general.

I think a lot of the existential fear people had in the wake of the ending was that the dynamic would be totally unrecognizable from the original FF7 going forward, so seeing things proceed as usual with them going to Kalm and being casual with each other rather than going on long diatribes about "destiny" is a good reassurance that FF7 is still there. I'm actually wondering how much acknowledgement the whispers are even going to get going forward. I hope it was more than just an excuse to get Zack back in the picture (and Biggs too I guess) but there's no telling until next time.

The DoC stuff was definitely fan service, but I think it also has the value of making those elements of the compilation feel more tight-knit with the original story. Now Deepground has set up, and it doesn't come from nowhere to be the excuse for a mediocre PS2 shooter game. Of course, Yuffie's reactions in Dirge now seem lacking retroactively, but that's the price you pay for these sorts of things. I wonder if Ever Crisis will address this at all.

I'm surprised it took someone so long to bring up how ridiculous it is to be having these "timeline AU" discussions in regards to FF7 btw.