SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[cold_spirit]

I mean, if it's an AU anyway then that make the whispers a pointless plot element because they could have just made things different from the start in that case.

And does that mean that the Zack from the original universe is alive again now, if you're saying that the beagle universe is the new one?

Hmmm, the storytellers have a point they're trying to make with Whispers. Your milage will vary whether you like it I suppose.

As for Zack, I theorize he's alive in the Terrier timeline, which I see as separate from the original game and Beagle timelines. So original game Zack is dead, Beagle Zack is dead, and Terrier Zack is alive and well.

 

[Odysseus]

For me personally, I think the differences from the OG would need to be more substantial for me to believe beagle world is it's own seperate thing. Right now it's just slightly different in ways that don't really matter much to the compilation outside of this small thing with Yuffie which I still don't think is all that big of a deal.

Part 2 is unfortunately what we'll need to see before we can be more certain though...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If you think SE are ever going to clarify things, let me make a prediction.
We'll still be arguing about the meaning of the Whispers and the Terrier v Beagle timelines in the old folks' home.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm trying to say is that a few people's explanations for why Yuffie meeting deepground here and the whispers being nowhere to be seen is that the remake is it's own seperate continuity from the compilation from the outset, before the whispers get involved. This is evidenced by things like the leaf house existing, or the wall market trio existing, or Leslie and his subplot, which were all things different from the original without whisper involvement. These differences could potentially mean that the events of advent children and dirge were never going to happen in the future of the remake anyway, as there's already a precedent for it being different. That's what Tets was saying when I started this discussion, and what cold spirit reiterated just a few posts ago. This would mean that the remake has no connection with the compilation or the original FF7 and is effectively a self contained narrative that just borrows elements from prior ff7 materials. Thus, Yuffie's doc doesn't contradict dirge because it exists in an AU where Dirge's plot was never going to happen.

The remake is its own separate continuity from the outset, yeah (Nomura said that before the game was even released), but see, the reason I got incredulous with that explanation from Tets is that a version of AC was clearly meant to have happened in Remake's Beagle Timeline. We had the trio of Whispers based on the AC brothers, which we all agree indicates a version of AC being intended.

So to acknowledge that but also suggest a version of Dirge's events wasn't also on the table just comes across as a case of Special Pleading.

I mean, not exactly. Like I said, I think a version of AC and DC was going to happen in Remake's future had the Whispers gotten their way, but it wouldn't be exactly like the on-screen events we saw of those titles.

To be really precise: I'm a believer of separate, asynchronous timelines. As such, I think the events of the original game/Compilation happened before Remake in another timeline. That Sephiroth has since found his way to Remake's timeline (i.e. the Beagle timeline) and is wreaking all sorts of havoc, causing the Planet to activate the Whispers and Aerith to gain memories of the original game. I actually don't think time travel is involved at all, what we're seeing is an interacting multiverse.

So I wouldn't say Remake has no connection to the previous titles and I wouldn't say it's self contained. I theorize all three timelines (original game/Compilation, Beagle, and Terrier) will be canon to each other when all is said and done.

Hmmm, the storytellers have a point they're trying to make with Whispers. Your milage will vary whether you like it I suppose.

As for Zack, I theorize he's alive in the Terrier timeline, which I see as separate from the original game and Beagle timelines. So original game Zack is dead, Beagle Zack is dead, and Terrier Zack is alive and well.

All this is me as well.

 

[Odysseus]

Do you think ever crisis will be those versions of events, or is that a separate thing. It's just bizarre to me to have the plot hinge on events we've never seen the relevant versions of. It's also funny to me that a "compilation" version of FF7 just doesn't exist, since the OG can't really be canon to the compilation either.

 

[Tetsujin]

I've suggested from the beginning that a version of the compilation events *would* have happened in the Remake future, just differed in the details btw. Not that DoC outright didn't happen.

 

[Odysseus]

That just feels kind of stupid and pointless to me, but then again, this is Square Enix.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've suggested from the beginning that a version of the compilation events *would* have happened in the Remake future, just differed in the details btw. Not that DoC outright didn't happen.

Sorry if I misunderstood. The nuances of all our positions have gotten muddled once or twice (or six times, since this topic is such an ouroboros).

Do you think ever crisis will be those versions of events, or is that a separate thing.

Excellent question. I wish I knew enough to guess with confidence.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That just feels kind of stupid and pointless to me, but then again, this is Square Enix.

How is it stupid? A journey is not simply defined by it's destination.

Certain events by the nature of the characters involved simply compel themselves to happen in some form or another.

Even if there's precedent to be "different" via the inclusion of new events or interpretations, there's also the fact certain character motivations, carrying on towards their expected end point, will demand an action that will compel an outcome. In fact, I'd argue certain new events and inclusions compel this Remake continuity to swing even more in line with what we know to happen in the continuity of the Compilation we've already seen.

Aerith tending to orphans in Midgar? Healing them of ailments with her flowers that grow in her church? Undercity children knowing her well while the pasts of The Kids Are Alright characters unfolds as depicted in the novel? That's a lot of similar coincidences for a continuity that is meant to veer completely off the rails of expectations.

Hojo is enraptured with the idea of digitizing himself, and has taken interest in Weiss. Deepground exists. The Tsviets want out, and are going to push the boundaries of their freedom. Barring the Tsviets being put down before Meteorfall or being set free, a sequence of events reminiscent of Dirge of Cerberus still lies in wait in the future of this new continuity. It could be 65% the same, or 98% the same but there's nothing at play preventing this outcome.

That's why predicting with certainty these writers are 100% all in on rewriting history or whatever is not so clear cut. There's plenty of evidence that, at the very least, they're somewhat ambivalent to that course of action. There's plenty shown to imply history may indeed repeat itself.

 

[Odysseus]

Sorry

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sorry

Wait wha?

Nothing to apologize for, I was just replying to your point lol not like it was an insult.

 

[ForceStealer]

If I had my wishes, I'd still rather the destiny/time shenanigans wind up being a pointless blemish on part one than to hang over the whole project merely to justify a bad idea

 

[Makoeyes987]

If I had my wishes, I'd still rather the destiny/time shenanigans wind up being a pointless blemish on part one than to hang over the whole project merely to justify a bad idea

I suppose my agreement with this would hinge on the proposed changes

Like, it could end up working out extremely well or landing flatter than a dead parrot. That's the joy of uncertainty but I'll say this.

If they can keep new things as interesting and well written as Intermission and give us the FFVII story, then I see no problem with it all.

 

[Odysseus]

Okay, so let me know if I'm understanding correctly.

This is what I think is happenening:

Spoiler

And this is what the you guys think is happening:

Spoiler

Is that correct?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I can only speak for myself, but you're correct about what I'm thinking.

Although, I'm not sure that the Sephiroth from whatever continuity/timeline/etc the OG and Compilation exists in, is the same as the unknown Sephiroth we've encountered in Chapter 18 of the Remake. I'm simply not comfortable theorizing his origin like that. All that's known is he's different, and potentially from somewhere else, maybe even the future.

 

[Odysseus]

It's the idea of Sephiroth going to an slightly alternate version of the established canon and then making an even more different version of that that I find to be kind of ridiculous.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's the idea of Sephiroth going to an slightly alternate version of the established canon and then making an even more different version of that that I find to be kind of ridiculous.

I'm sure Future Trunks thought the same thing.

But we can plainly see, along with what Nomura has said, that the Remake isn't the exact OG continuity. They are separate. However, they share the same lore, timeline, elements, etc. It's also connected to the Compilation. That's pretty indicative right there.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm sure Future Trunks thought the same thing.

But we can plainly see, along with what Nomura has said, that the Remake isn't the exact OG continuity. They are separate. However, they share the same lore, timeline, elements, etc. It's also connected to the Compilation. That's pretty indicative right there.

I made the Trunks comparison in my head lol, especially considering 2/5 of the timelines in play we'll probably never see.

My ideal was that the remake and original could kind of interchangeably fill the role of the "meteor crisis" story, just told differently, and the rest of the compilation is functionally identical so it doesn't matter. Of course, if the remake stroy has a totally different ending and doesn't lead into AC or DoC anyway, I guess it really isn't that important. Just requiring a whole extra timeline to accommodate a potential plot hole with the Yuffie DLC is kinda silly imo.

 

[ForceStealer]

As far as retcon-plotholes go, Yuffie not saying anything about Deepground is pretty pedestrian.

Certainly easier to handwave than no one remembering a guy whose face was literally duplicated across the globe 5/6 years ago. Or indeed Deepground's entire premise

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, it most certainly will be told differently, it kinda already is. How functionally interchangeable this story will fit as "FFVII" will depend on how the story unfolds and ultimately how one chooses to view it. For some it most certainly can never be an "FFVII" by its very existence.

So it really just depends on what goes down and I would say... What one personally places as sacrosanct for FFVII to be FFVII.

As far as retcon-plotholes go, Yuffie not saying anything about Deepground is pretty pedestrian.

Yeah, like this is so beyond unimportant to me that it just makes me chuckle. Dirge of Cerberus didn't even bother to believably show us how Cloud, Tifa and Barret managed to deal with Deepground and evacuating Edge. Cloud confronted Rosso the Crimson and the game left that hanging like a spinster accused of Witchcraft in 1692.

I'm supposed to be bothered over a retcon not showcasing Yuffie having any emotion or recognition towards Nero the Sable? The fucking game didn't even showcase Yuffie doing anything in the first place. Par for course.

 

[Odysseus]

I mean, it most certainly will be told differently, it kinda already is. How functionally interchangeable this story will fit as "FFVII" will depend on how the story unfolds and ultimately how one chooses to view it. For some it most certainly can never be an "FFVII" by its very existence.

Oh, I mean it will never be the FFVII, that will always be the original game. What I mean is just continuity wise, either one could fill that slot without creting major issues with the compilation. It's really down to how the rest of the remake's story goes to determine that, though.

Yeah, like this is so beyond unimportant to me that it just makes me chuckle. Dirge of Cerberus didn't even bother to believably show us how Cloud, Tifa and Barret managed to deal with Deepground and evacuating Edge. I'm supposed to be bothered over a retcon not showcasing Yuffie having any emotion or recognition towards Nero the Sable? The fucking game didn't even showcase Yuffie doing anything in the first place. Par for course.

I could make a way better case for FFVII itself being noncanon to the compilation than this DLC being noncanon to it, honestly lol. The way Zack dies is fairly different, the room Cloud throws Sephiroth into the reactor is different between the OG and every other depiction of the scene. The OG SOLDIER logo is the Deepground logo in the compilation, The layout of the Shinra mansion is contradictory with Dirge and Crisis Core, the Turks outfits are blue instead of black, the Buster Sword looks very different, Red XIII says he's the last of his kind even though BC establishes he knows he isn't... etc. etc. FF7 is far from free of contradictions and design changes as it is, honestly. That's why I thought it was weird people find this one with Yuffie a deal breaker lol.

 

[ForceStealer]

Red XIII says he's the last of his kind even though BC establishes he knows he isn't...

Ugh this one is a million times more annoying than Yuffie and Nero, lol

 

[Tetsujin]

It's the idea of Sephiroth going to an slightly alternate version of the established canon and then making an even more different version of that that I find to be kind of ridiculous.

At least as far as I'm concerned, this Sephiroth would be from the Remake future rather than OG (if he is indeed from the future instead of...idk something else)

 

[Makoeyes987]

I could make a way better case for FFVII itself being noncanon to the compilation than this DLC being noncanon to it, honestly lol. The way Zack dies is fairly different, the room Cloud throws Sephiroth into the reactor is different between the OG and every other depiction of the scene. The OG SOLDIER logo is the Deepground logo in the compilation, The layout of the Shinra mansion is contradictory with Dirge and Crisis Core, the Turks outfits are blue instead of black, the Buster Sword looks very different, Red XIII says he's the last of his kind even though BC establishes he knows he isn't... etc. etc. FF7 is far from free of contradictions and design changes as it is, honestly. That's why I thought it was weird people find this one with Yuffie a deal breaker lol.

Pretty much. This is all the nature of adaption, technology and simple creative change.

And unless you're George Lucas, you just let it roll and move on past the changes.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

OK, I haven't played the DLC but I have watched one of those cutscene movie thingies and here's what I think:

- Yuffie is lying about working for the Wutai government. That's a bullshit story she (and Sonon?) made up to get Avalanche's help. She and Sonon are two independent ninjas doing their own thing. How they joined up together, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he initiated it, and that his real (secret) personal mission is to protect her, the daughter of his beloved Master.

- How can she possibly have been doing "this" - whatever "this" is - longer than Sonon when he's like ten years older than she is AND her father trained him? He's letting her be "Boss" because he knows how to manage her. He's pretty much the one making all the decisions.

- If Nayo and her cell really are Avalanche HQ, then it looks like Avalanche is run by the local high school's environmental club. (Not in itself a impausible idea, but one can see why Barret & Co would want to break away, them being adults and all). Why does Nayo have to sound like she's 12? Polk's a kid; he ought to be playing Whack-a-box in the Sector 5 Hideout.

- Barret's cell broke away a year ago, taking Jessie - the fake ID maker - with them. Have Nayo's cell really not needed the services of an ID forger at all in the last twelve months? They really don't seem very active - or effective. I can't help suspecting they're just a bunch of wannabes. Yuffie's a wannabe government agent and they're wannabe eco-activists.

- Why the fuck didn't the Shinra Elite Guards just shoot Zhijie as he was running around? What's in those big guns of theirs? Nerf balls? Or maybe every bullet they use comes out of their own paycheck?

- I liked the bit with the hoodlums trying to snatch Nayo for a Corneo bride

- Scarlet is Queen

- Did Shinra finally figure out where Biggs lives?

- People from Wutai don't look conspicuously different (i.e. "Asian"). They look the same as everybody else on this planet.

- I don't mind her being called Yoofie, but why do they have to spell it Yuffy? Yufie is how her name should be spelled.

- Why can't she keep her shorts buttoned? There's something about that which makes me feel a little queasy.