SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I mean, you asked for proof that these things were happening in both Zack's September and Cloud's December.

The dome was literally formed right in front of Cloud in his December. =/
And I agree that they happened in both Zack’s September and Cloud’s December, what I’m questioning is if both of those points in time are occurring simultaneously. Like I said, with an entity like the Whispers, I don’t think it’s a stretch that killing them in the present may have effects on what they did in the past. In fact, we already have that with Zack’s survival itself.

The Whispers sense a change is about to occur in the present, so they form a dome to try to prevent that change. Similarly, they detect that the past is about to be changed, so they also form a dome in the past. That’s all hypothetical of course, I’m just spitballing here.

He carries Cloud to Midgar, which happens simultaneously as Cloud and the others leaving Midgar, in December. Once more, the Singularity shows us this.
Again, we don’t know if it happened simultaneously. We have a visual of it, but we don’t know if it’s meant to be taken literally.

Instead of speculating "perhaps something happened", you need to explain what froze Cloud and others time in place to suddenly make Zack able to jump 3 months into the future to sync up with them during FFVII's time frame and be in the same timeline. Because without a clear explanation, it's not where he's shown to exist. His events happen around the time of Crisis Core.
Because you’re still hanging on to the idea that Zack’s last stand and Cloud leaving Midgar are occurring simultaneously, you keep misunderstanding the explanation others already gave. Presuming that they aren’t taking place simultaneously, nothing has to happen to make Cloud freeze in place or make Zack skip ahead. Time still moves exactly as we know it to, only now we don’t know what happened to Zack in between the end of Crisis Core and the beginning of FF7.

So the past can be changed in its entirety, collapsing two timelines into one, but somehow nothing about the characters or their belongings changes whatsoever. Okay.
Yes, exactly. That’s the convenience that a device like the Singularity allows if what I’m saying is true. It allows the writers to take the characters from inside the Singularity, namely Cloud, and keep the development along roughly the same path as the OG while also expanding the kind of curveballs that can be thrown our way.

Why are there two Stamps? Why were we even shown that?
For pretty much the same reason why we’d see them if we are dealing with two timelines, to differentiate between the old and the new.

Imagine if you will, our party is unaffected by the changes occurring outside the Singularity. We remember what Stamp looked like, a beagle right? But he’s a terrier now? When did this change happen? We specifically remember him being a beagle but he’s a terrier now, and nobody but us seems alarmed by this?
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Yeah, if the single/combined timeline scenario is path that’s going to play out (and not separate timelines), basically one should view the singularity and the events that occurred inside of it as equivalent to the Time Sphere from Futurama Bender’s Big Score, it allows for paradoxical duplicates to exist without breaking time because (to quote the JJBA meme of King Crimson) “it just works”.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
And I agree that they happened in both Zack’s September and Cloud’s December, what I’m questioning is if both of those points in time are occurring simultaneously. Like I said, with an entity like the Whispers, I don’t think it’s a stretch that killing them in the present may have effects on what they did in the past. In fact, we already have that with Zack’s survival itself.

They do occur simultaneously, because it's a singularity. We witness these events unfold simultaneously as the audience. The Ultimania of FFVII-R confirms it. Why are we debating and relitigating what the Singularity location of FFVII-R is? Where was this confusion before?


Again, we don’t know if it happened simultaneously. We have a visual of it, but we don’t know if it’s meant to be taken literally.

We do, because it is a singularity of time. Past and present cross within a singularity space.

Because you’re still hanging on to the idea that Zack’s last stand and Cloud leaving Midgar are occurring simultaneously, you keep misunderstanding the explanation others already gave. Presuming that they aren’t taking place simultaneously, nothing has to happen to make Cloud freeze in place or make Zack skip ahead. Time still moves exactly as we know it to, only now we don’t know what happened to Zack in between the end of Crisis Core and the beginning of FF7.

Then why are Cloud and the others passing by Zack and a comatose Cloud?

Why did the dome of whispers explode at the exact same time for Cloud and the others and Zack?

We see this happen, so explain how it isn't what we actually witness within the game's ending.

Yes, exactly. That’s the convenience that a device like the Singularity allows if what I’m saying is true. It allows the writers to take the characters from inside the Singularity, namely Cloud, and keep the development along roughly the same path as the OG while also expanding the kind of curveballs that can be thrown our way.

You still haven't answered any of my questions regarding that being the case then :monster:

For pretty much the same reason why we’d see them if we are dealing with two timelines, to differentiate between the old and the new.

Then how can you differentiate them, if they're in the same timeline?

It's a contradictory and superfluous element then. If they're in the same space and time, why are there two?

Imagine if you will, our party is unaffected by the changes occurring outside the Singularity. We remember what Stamp looked like, a beagle right? But he’s a terrier now? When did this change happen? We specifically remember him being a beagle but he’s a terrier now, and nobody but us seems alarmed by this?

But we don't see a Terrier dog Stamp with Cloud and the others. That's with Zack.

Cloud and everyone else are associated with the original Stamp we've seen before, so why would there be two Stamps if it's all just one timeline in the end?

We remember and see the original Stamp in Intermission. So what's the point?
 

JBedford

Pro Adventurer
AKA
JBed
I think you're misunderstanding me. I take @JBedford to be suggesting that the party unknowingly emerged into Alternate Zack's timeline -- so they've been walking down the highway and hitchhiking in September while thinking it's December.
Oops, turns out I've still been unclear.

I think the party is in December of Zack Lives timeline. The other's possible but I've never considered it.

Order of events from party's perspective
Zack dies in September . Cloud walks to Midgar.
Game starts in December.
Shinra Building stuff.
Singularity happens. Whispers die in all time so even the past can change.
The party exit the singularity onto a changed timeline (where Zack lived) still in December. The game shows a flashback to the September of this changed timeline.
Living Zack enters church.


I wasn't really thinking about the Buster Sword. The "time rewrites contrive a way to put the party on the same path" explanation seemed to be the simplest solution but now it doesn't work. There are other explanations but they're more convoluted (like the Cloud on the Zack Lives timeline ended up outside Midgar but sans Buster Sword. upon exiting the singularity, ZackLives!Cloud is deleted and replaced by ZackDies!Cloud with Buster Sword. this deletion only applies to living things... and their clothes I guess).

Still, I can't think where they'd be going with Zack on a parallel timeline.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
And that's why a parallel, separate timeline with Zack makes the most sense. :monster:

Occam's Razor. The simplest of competing theories is preferred to the more complex, and explanations of unknown phenomena should be sought first in terms of known quantities.

The Remake's scenario is complicated enough without adding multiple unnecessary layers of convoluted timeline mess that isn't needed to explain or understand the phenomenon we're witnessing.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
In fairness, Nomura shaves his ass hair with that.

LMAO

Oh man.

Please, I pray to Minerva, that this never comes close to the sideshow that was KH Union X.

I honestly don't think it will. There's zero indication it will, and this isn't Nomura's one-man-circus-show like KH currently is. So yeah, I do feel confident about it it not turning into that. :monster:

Honestly? Considering what the whole stinger with Zack and the timeline shenanigans are, this added clarification turned out pretty good? It doesn't feel like it made shit more confusing than it already is and it pretty much solidified/aligned with what the Ultimania text hinted at. I don't feel like it threw an unnecessary and gratuitous curve ball here.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
They do occur simultaneously, because it's a singularity. We witness these events unfold simultaneously as the audience. The Ultimania of FFVII-R confirms it. Why are we debating and relitigating what the Singularity location of FFVII-R is? Where was this confusion before?
The Singularity is where the fight with Sephiroth and the Whispers takes place, everything else outside of it should have occurred at a fixed moment in time. You think the Singularity changes the fact that Zack’s last stand was in September and Cloud left Midgar in December?

We do, because it is a singularity of time. Past and present cross within a singularity space.
Again, that’s specifically where Cloud and the gang fight the Whispers. Then they leave and continue on in whatever new world they’re in.

Then why are Cloud and the others passing by Zack and a comatose Cloud?
Symbolism? I dunno why that idea is such a stretch considering how much of it is used in this series. We the audience see it happening when we do because it’s a change that our present actions caused, but I don’t think it means it’s literally happening at the same time.

Why did the dome of whispers explode at the exact same time for Cloud and the others and Zack?
Because the Whispers transcend time, them being defeated in the present affects what they were able to do in the past. That’s literally why Zack is alive in the first place.

We see this happen, so explain how it isn't what we actually witness within the game's ending.
Dude, the story isn’t even over. Not a single one of us here is in any position to be as sure as you are of what the hell is going on lmao the most we can offer here are ideas.

You still haven't answered any of my questions regarding that being the case then :monster:
You already accepted the Singularity as being a place transcending time, what else do you need?

Then how can you differentiate them, if they're in the same timeline?

It's a contradictory and superfluous element then. If they're in the same space and time, why are there two?
Beagle represents the world before the Singularity event, terrier represents the world after. It’s really not that different than using the two to represent separate parallel timelines, it’s just a matter of whether one can go back and forth between the two.


But we don't see a Terrier dog Stamp with Cloud and the others. That's with Zack.

Cloud and everyone else are associated with the original Stamp we've seen before, so why would there be two Stamps if it's all just one timeline in the end?

We remember and see the original Stamp in Intermission. So what's the point?

We see the terrier with Zack after the Singularity event has changed the past. We don’t see it with Cloud yet because we’re still in a pre-Singularity world during most of FF7R and similarly during Intermission. Once we leave the Singularity, then we see if Stamp matches with what Cloud remembers Stamp looking like. If he keeps his memories of a pre-Singularity world, he’ll remember Stamp as being a beagle. But everybody who was outside of the Singularity remembers him being a terrier because to them, he always was a terrier.

Obviously, that’s all just guessing. But if you’re familiar with stuff like Steins;Gate, it’s really not such a stretch.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
The Singularity is where the fight with Sephiroth and the Whispers takes place, everything else outside of it should have occurred at a fixed moment in time. You think the Singularity changes the fact that Zack’s last stand was in September and Cloud left Midgar in December?

A singularity point is a location in space-time that connects to all points in time, meaning that while Cloud and the others were fighting Sephiroth, Zack's last stand occured. They are temporally connected. No, it doesn't change the months each event occurred, but it allows simultaneous events like the Whispers exploding to occur in the past and present. That's literally the point of a singularity.

Again, that’s specifically where Cloud and the gang fight the Whispers. Then they leave and continue on in whatever new world they’re in.

They leave and find themselves at the exact same spot Zack and Cloud in Crisis Core are in, 3 months in the past. That's why they pass by each other because they are in the exact same spot, just at different times. The singularity point allowed us to see how these two events unfolded concurrently.

Symbolism? I dunno why that idea is such a stretch considering how much of it is used in this series

But it's not just symbolism because the Ultimania itself addressed it from a completely diegetic perspective. They didn't just dismiss it as symbolism. In fact, they specifically treated it as something more than symbolism and brought attention to it as a key narrative point of mystery.


Because the Whispers transcend time, them being defeated in the present affects what they were able to do in the past. That’s literally why Zack is alive in the first place.

Their transcendence of time is not a dismissive hand-wave for phenomenon. We see what they do, and what they did. Their destruction was witnessed and felt by Zack in Crisis Core, and Cloud's group in FFVII. This is not a mystery. Their blow up happened before our eyes and we see the same golden light and sparkles fall on Zack in Crisis Core while it also falls on the present Midgar in FVII. This is a simultaneous occurrence. You saying, "but what if it isn't?" isn't a point or theory. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. And you're not providing any evidence to support this not being a simultaneous occurrence as the game/text presents it to us.

Dude, the story isn’t even over. Not a single one of us here is in any position to be as sure as you are of what the hell is going on lmao the most we can offer here are ideas.

That literally doesn't matter. Cloud could turn into a brain eating zombie in Part 2, and no one would see it coming. Because it's pretty obvious nothing in the setting or narrative alludes to such a freak occurrence happening. We as the audience can follow the evidence, and what is clearly being alluded to through the narrative and setting, especially thanks to the commentary/clues provided by the book materials themselves. Just because the story isn't over doesn't mean we have to abandon critical thinking or stating what's obvious to our eyes. And certainly still have to support what we're gonna claim is going on.

You already accepted the Singularity as being a place transcending time, what else do you need?

I never accepted the Whispers somehow eating time like Langoliers or something. I believe the same laws of time currently exist, even with time travel shenanigans. And the temporal plot holes that exist need filling if you're going to posit a single timeline as the explanation for the time travel scenario.

Beagle represents the world before the Singularity event, terrier represents the world after. It’s really not that different than using the two to represent separate parallel timelines, it’s just a matter of whether one can go back and forth between the two.

We don't see the Terrier Stamp mascot representing the world after the battle with Sephiroth in the singularity. We only see it representing Zack's world during the Crisis Core time period, 3 months in the past. We have no evidence at all that the Terrier Stamp exists in FFVII-R's current reality inhabited by Cloud and the others. But we do still see Beagle Stamp in Intergrade. And let's not forget, we have commentary from Nomura himself stating that Yuffie is going to meet up with Cloud and the others in Part 2, picking up from Intergrade's ending. So why would Cloud and the others be in the Terrier Stamp universe?


We see the terrier with Zack after the Singularity event has changed the past. We don’t see it with Cloud yet because we’re still in a pre-Singularity world during most of FF7R and similarly during Intermission. Once we leave the Singularity, then we see if Stamp matches with what Cloud remembers Stamp looking like. If he keeps his memories of a pre-Singularity world, he’ll remember Stamp as being a beagle. But everybody who was outside of the Singularity remembers him being a terrier because to them, he always was a terrier.

Obviously, that’s all just guessing. But if you’re familiar with stuff like Steins;Gate, it’s really not such a stretch.

I'm familiar but we don't see that currently at work at all. Going by what we do see after the final battle with Sephiroth in the singularity, we see that both parties continuing on from the events shown in FFVII-R's ending. Cloud and the others are heading to Kalm, and Zack is going through Midgar to visit Aerith at Church. No evidence is provided during these events that show Zack's timeframe suddenly changing from Crisis Core's, to FFVII's. We simply see these events continuing on from their previous introduction from the ending.

Unless something's shown or explained that says otherwise, it is a massive leap based on no evidence other than the desire to make the two characters be in the same timeline writ large. It's working backwards from a conclusion, and trying to make the evidence align with it.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Symbolism? I dunno why that idea is such a stretch considering how much of it is used in this series. We the audience see it happening when we do because it’s a change that our present actions caused, but I don’t think it means it’s literally happening at the same time.

Just Symbolism runs into the same issue with the Ultimania segment as the Just Flashback suggestion. It would be a really senselessly unnecessary bit of supplemental writing that created an understanding many players wouldn't have even had reason to think of in the first place ... just for the sake of later saying "Hey, that notion we gave you in the back of a strategy guide? Faaaake! Damn, did you just get punk'd! You must be so embarrassed!"

Like, on his worst day, I give Nomura more credit than that.

Dude, the story isn’t even over. Not a single one of us here is in any position to be as sure as you are of what the hell is going on lmao
Well, there is something we can all agree on after all. :wacky:
 
One thing's for sure. Whatever timeline he's in, Zack's still not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Imagine: you've just defeated an entire battalion of Shinra soldiers sent to kill you, you know the Shinra army and the Turks are tracking you, you have a pretty good idea you're Shinra's most wanted... and yet you head on into Midgar in broad daylight and go straight to the place where Shinra's most valuable asset can usually be found, despite the fact that you are well known to have a close emotional bond with her, and despite the extremely high probability, given what just went down in the wasteland, that she'll be heavily guarded.

Zack's a thicko. Or maybe a himbo....
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Ignoring the Great Timeline Debate for the moment because it really deserves it's own thread. Onto more interesting Integrade Specific Stuff...

Yuffie and Sonon talk about a time AVALANCHE fought against Wutai. Pretty sure this is a reference to BC's AVALANCHE... Godo is locked up somewhere in jail. So that's different this time around in general. Wonder who decided to do that to him given his OG personality and reasons he spearheaded stopping fighting against Shinra. Not that a lot of other Wutains in CC decided to go along with that idea...

We also now have at least four different groups of AVALANCHE in the Compilation. Barret's, the one Yuffie works with, Elfe's and the one at Cosmo Canyon. Kinda wonder if we'll meet any more...

Sonon's "death" is... really suspicious. And by suspicious I mean... Nero kinda just flat-out kills everyone else ASAP. And then he drags Sonon's death out and lets Yuffie get away. And Sonon gets the mother of all death flashbacks. And Nero is *very* insistent on bringing Sonon's body into his darkness with him and he doesn't bother doing that for anyone else...

This has me side-eyeing the DoC Multiplayer story and thinking Sonon would make a *really* good candidate for taking the Restrictors out from the Tsivet's point of view. They know he's good enough to at least make problems for Nero. And they know he already hates Shinra enough to get into a fight with Scarlet. And actually win for the most part. And then you have him fighting against Shinra before they even *get* there. So they know they don't need to motivate him a ton to want to take the Restrictors out. Although I do think that part of why Sonon has such a long death flashback is because Shelke is rooting around in his head and seeing what's there (and making him see one "vision" that doesn't look like the others).

And... that last bit's important. It's too much SND that makes the Tsivets use a different person to take each Restrictor down in DoC Multiplayer. And I don't think Shelke would need to use *much* SND on Sonon to get him to want to kill off the Restrictors. If the Tsivets didn't have to keep starting from scratch... that could move up their timeline to kill off all the Restrictors by quite a bit. Enough that DG might break out much earlier than last time around.

Half of me likes this idea because it opens the door for Sonon and Yuffie to get into a situation where they fight each other. The other part of me likes this because this doesn't exactly make Sonon living instantly *fix* anything given how bad DG is. I could totally see Sonon not being alive at all. The other part of me thinks this would be a *really* good way to bring in DoC Multiplayer's story with a character everyone actually cares about and is not a random nobody.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
Positive thoughts:
-Feel kinda vindicated that they are going with "Wutaian" as the epithet. I also heard someone in the slums call people up top "platies" which made me chuckle.
-The Deathwheel (the final fight of the ordnance test) is based on the OG enemy Bullmotor, which is encountered in Corel Prison. When I saw the Kalm Fang and Levrikon in Chapter 1 of Intermission, I assumed that they were made in anticipation of Part 2. After seeing the Bullmotor, my instinct is to believe that Part 2 will include the Corel Prison.
-Combat remains excellent.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I still haven’t watched Intergrade yet ☠️ About the Stamps in the Yuffie chapters, do we see both old and new, or only the old one? I’m trying to have a go at this clusterfuck but I can’t watch this before several hours so ☠️☠️☠️
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
One thing's for sure. Whatever timeline he's in, Zack's still not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Imagine: you've just defeated an entire battalion of Shinra soldiers sent to kill you, you know the Shinra army and the Turks are tracking you, you have a pretty good idea you're Shinra's most wanted... and yet you head on into Midgar in broad daylight and go straight to the place where Shinra's most valuable asset can usually be found, despite the fact that you are well known to have a close emotional bond with her, and despite the extremely high probability, given what just went down in the wasteland, that she'll be heavily guarded.

Zack's a thicko. Or maybe a himbo....
Don't ask logic or rationale to someone who is emotionally in love. It can drive you crazy.
He even didn't think straight after reading her final letter and just went to Midgar from Banora only in 2 weeks of 9 months.
 

Misterbadguy

Phantom Lord
AKA
METEODRIVE
I still haven’t watched Intergrade yet ☠️ About the Stamps in the Yuffie chapters, do we see both old and new, or only the old one? I’m trying to have a go at this clusterfuck but I can’t watch this before several hours so ☠️☠️☠️

I'm only about an hour in so keep that in mind, but in Sector 7 there's a teacher telling a bunch of kids a story about Stamp. She's using picture boards whilst narrating and they have old Stamp on them.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
So no alternate timelines? good, but the rest is still crazy.

Edit: or maybe not lol
 

Phantasm

Game Over
I dont have a ps5 but i have been reading this thread. I just watched the ending CG on youtube, can someone that played this dlc tell me where is Yuffie? i mean Is she on the same "timeline" as the rest of the group? or in Zack's timeline? Thanks in advance!
 

Lestat

He/him
AKA
Ergo, V
I dont have a ps5 but i have been reading this thread. I just watched the ending CG on youtube, can someone that played this dlc tell me where is Yuffie? i mean Is she on the same "timeline" as the rest of the group? or in Zack's timeline? Thanks in advance!
Pretty much up for debate at this point.
I've read conflicting reports from folk who completed it that it is in the same timeline as cloud and others saying it's seperate and exists in an alternate Zack alive timeline.

Thanks to the whispers of fuckery nothing is certain.
 
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eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
If this was the single timeline, I'm thinking of the terrier stamp spotted in Kalm next installment. Only Aerith notices the difference, "Stamp? Stamp!" while the others just think it was the Stamp they always know (that their memory is altered perhaps). Then Aerith would say "Oh, you're gone too". Those Aerith's line is taken from her farewell monologue in FF 30th Anniversary exhibition. Her other line which is "I hate the sky because it took everyone I love" is already delivered in part one ending with "The sky, I hate it (JP ver.)"

Right now, I cant pick whether it's always single timeline or multiple timelines does exist.
 
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