You misunderstand.
The time between the INTERsection event and the NOW is three months for Zack
The time between the INTERsection event and the NOW is no time for Party.
I haven't seen the footage, but why is that not possible?
I think you take the Zack crossing Cloud and the team thing to literally. I think it is just symbolic for Cloud Aerith and Zack being on different paths which fits nicely with him entering the empty church.
Also you again didn't answer why the boy from the opening is now sitting crying in Aerith church lol
Well why would a boy from the upper plate of sector 7 be in the church of Aerith with another bunch of crying people? My guess is that this alludes to the plate drop. Everyone who lost there home probably took refuge in Sector 5.
3 months for one person, is 3 months for everyone else if they share the same spacetime. 3 months, is 3 months. Time is the same for everybody.
So that makes no sense if Zack is suddenly in the same timeline!!
The game was just showing what happened where the Party was three months in the past. Zack wasn't there, so why should Zack's passage of time need to progress the same as the party's?
The INTERsection scene was a flashback. Zack at the church is a present event.
It's obviously not exactly at the same time since where Zack is standing it's bright sunlight lol Like I said I think you are taking this things too literally. Time travel shenanigans are always a bit nonsensicalFor Zack to be entering the church, while Aerith is commenting on having a bad feeling, the events have to be occurring simultaneously between each other. Which would mean that Zack, is entering the church during FFVII.
Use your common sense, what else would be the reason for a boy from the sector 7 upper plate to show up with a bunch of clearly grieving people in Aerith church? We already have a example of someone who lived through the plate drop who ended up in Sector 5, which would be BiggsWhy does this allude to the plate drop?
Do we know that he's from Sector 7, though? That park from the upper plate in the opening is in Sector 5.Well why would a boy from the upper plate of sector 7 be in the church of Aerith with another bunch of crying people? My guess is that this alludes to the plate drop. Everyone who lost there home probably took refuge in Sector 5.
The ending of Part 1 where Party and Zack intersect. For the party it's December. Zack's not literally there, he's in September -- it's flashbacking to September.No it was not. That was not a flashback. Cloud and the others being on the road to Kalm, is a direct continuation of what happened at the end of Part 1. Where did you even hear that?
The ending of Part 1 where Party and Zack intersect. For the party it's December. Zack's not literally there, he's in September -- it's flashbacking to September.
Do we know that he's from Sector 7, though? That park from the upper plate in the opening is in Sector 5.
I grant you that the site of things inside the church suggests people reacting to the Sector 7 plate drop, but I don't think we can give priority to what that looks like on the surface over what else we've seen and read with certainty (i.e. Cloud and Zack walking past one another in VIIR's ending, and what the first Ultimania had to say about all that; Zack and Cloud both still having the Buster Sword; the way it seems like the same amount of time has passed for Cloud and co. to arrive outside Kalm from that spot in the wastelands just outside Midgar to the amount of time for Zack to get from that spot in the wastelands just outside Midgar to arrive at the church).
I guess we have to wait for that new Ultimania lol. But the way I look at these things is just from a visual narrative perspective. The Remake is actually very straight forward with it's visual presentation. The thing it's cryptic about is mostly dialog related. If the game is showing me footage of Aerith saying she has a weird feeling and then a moment later showing me Zack who is just about to enter her church than thematically the game is putting these both scenes in relation to each other.Do we know that he's from Sector 7, though? That park from the upper plate in the opening is in Sector 5.
I grant you that the site of things inside the church suggests people reacting to the Sector 7 plate drop, but I don't think we can give priority to what that looks like on the surface over what else we've seen and read with certainty (i.e. Cloud and Zack walking past one another in VIIR's ending, and what the first Ultimania had to say about all that; Zack and Cloud both still having the Buster Sword; the way it seems like the same amount of time has passed for Cloud and co. to arrive outside Kalm from that spot in the wastelands just outside Midgar to the amount of time for Zack to get from that spot in the wastelands just outside Midgar to arrive at the church).
If the game is showing me footage of Aerith saying she has a weird feeling and then a moment later showing me Zack who is just about to enter her church than thematically the game is putting these both scenes in relation to each other.
Zack does not need to catch up. The first time Zack appears in FFVII Remake proper (present day) is entering the church.Okay.
So if that's the case, how in the world is Zack in the same timeline and time frame as Cloud and the others? How could he be entering the church as Aerith is saying she has a bad feeling?
Are you going to say that Cloud and the others were on the road for 2 months to allow Zack time to catch up to their corresponding point in time, or something?
Zack does not need to catch up. The first time Zack appears in FFVII Remake proper (present day) is entering the church.
His only other appearance is in a flashback to events that occurred before the game even started.
The present day when the flashback occurs is December, it's flashing back to what happened to Zack in September. At this time when Zack is appearing in the flashback, actual present day Zack is already heading to Aerith's church.
Because Zack has been in Midgar throughout the entire timeline of Part 1 (thanks to time shenanigans).
We were shown two points in time simultaneously, I don’t know if it’s confirmed that they actually took place simultaneously otherwise it’s like showing a flashback and concluding that the flashback and the present are taking place concurrently but on separate timelines. Zack survives his battle, a few months pass, and then he goes to Aerith’s church at the same time that Cloud is leaving Midgar. That in itself isn’t such a stretch unless it is proven that the fight with the Whispers occurred at the same time as Zack’s last stand OR if we were just being shown a flashback that is now altered by our present actions.
View attachment 10036
“From the fact that there are two Clouds that exist at the same time”. Are they just describing what is literally on screen? Because if there are two Clouds, why wouldn’t it be possible for them to pass each other? It’s presumed that they are not in the same place and time, but are they in the same place but a different time, or the same time but a different place? Are they describing two realities occurring simultaneously but displaced temporally, or a singular reality in which the past events of those in the present still occurred based on their memories, but the present all around them has changed to match the changes of the past, creating dissonance between the party’s memories and the rest of the world?
The answer to all of these questions is…yet to be explained by the story, so all we have is conjecture. No matter what the ultimania says, we have not reached the resolution of the story yet. I have no hard theories on what the hell is going on here, just wanted to put that out there lol.
As far as the discrepancy between the church in-game and the church, I chalk it up to outsourcing the prerendered cutscenes so maybe they weren’t even done by the time FF7R came out. Or maybe because we only see sector 5 the morning after the plate drop, the refugees were moved there later.
Zack survives his battle, a few months pass, and then he goes to Aerith’s church at the same time that Cloud is leaving Midgar. That in itself isn’t such a stretch unless it is proven that the fight with the Whispers occurred at the same time as Zack’s last stand OR if we were just being shown a flashback that is now altered by our present actions.
Yes.And where does the game tell us any of that? What you're saying is your own headcanon.
Yes.
That's what this exercise has been about. Explaining to you how the church scene fits into the same-timeline theory.
The same-timeline theory says that upon exiting the singularity the party have landed on the Zack Lives timeline.
We were shown two points in time simultaneously, I don’t know if it’s confirmed that they actually took place simultaneously otherwise it’s like showing a flashback and concluding that the flashback and the present are taking place concurrently but on separate timelines. Zack survives his battle, a few months pass, and then he goes to Aerith’s church at the same time that Cloud is leaving Midgar.
Zack sees the Whisper dome around Midgar during his late September, but that's happening in the party's December. It literally knocks him down ...That in itself isn’t such a stretch unless it is proven that the fight with the Whispers occurred at the same time as Zack’s last stand
“From the fact that there are two Clouds that exist at the same time”. Are they just describing what is literally on screen? Because if there are two Clouds, why wouldn’t it be possible for them to pass each other?
The same-timeline theory says that upon exiting the singularity the party have landed on the Zack Lives timeline.
Let’s backtrack a bit because I think there’s too much misinterpreting what’s being argued here.And where does the game tell us any of that?
That flies entirely in the face of Chapter 18 of the Remake, where Zack's shown to have literally been fighting his final battle in Crisis Core during Cloud's battle with Sephiroth in the Remake, and Zack prevails thanks to the actions of Cloud and the others. Then from that point, Zack reaches Midgar and proceeds to the Church. Because the ending of Intergrade is a continuation of the ending of Part 1. You've simultaneously stated that the events from the ending are concurrent yet not, but somehow able to have transported Zack to the same timeline as the others, yet not really because Zack's been thrust back into the past, to somehow be present during everything in Part 1, already??
What you're saying is your own headcanon. And I don't see any evidence pointing to that interpretation at all.
It really is not that complicated or elusive to understand, since Zack's entire experience during the end of Chapter 18, is a corresponding event that has been depicted in Crisis Core. It has a date. It's an event. It's not ambiguous where or when it happened. So why the hesitancy to state what is plainly in front of the audience?
Zack's experience from that point in time, is during Crisis Core's time period, specifically the final battle. That's not ambiguous, mysterious or conjecture. That is how it's described and confirmed by the writers.
The singularity is a place where all events in time happen simultaneously. That's right out of the game. We know that's what the singularity is.
Citation needed. Where does it say anywhere "months" have passed? This is the type of assumption that's just being presented as fact. Who or what is stating that months have passed? Months haven't passed or anything for Cloud and the others, they're picking up right where they left off. The corresponding events from the ending of Remake Part 1 to it's continuation in Intermission, show these events happening concurrently. Nothing alludes to the fact that "months" have passed.
The Ultimania quote is obviously describing what we, the audience, see in the ending because a picture of said ending accompanies that text. They're talking about Cloud's FFVII party passing by Zack carrying mako poisoned Cloud. This isn't difficult to interpret. The reason the two Clouds can't literally pass each other or be in the same time and place here is because it's a paradox. Cloud not inheriting the Buster Sword from a dying Zack, doesn't become the Cloud of FFVII who we see proceeding on the journey after the Remake's ending.
Why is this suddenly mysterious or ambiguous?
But the dome and golden Whisper snow is seen by Zack in his September and people like Marle in their December. =\I think your presumption is that because we were shown two events simultaneously, Zack’s last stand and the final fight of FF7R, that it means that they’re taking place at the same time on two separate timelines that are offset from one another.
But the dome and golden Whisper snow is seen by Zack in his September and people like Marle in their December. =\
---
Also, I'm just going to take to saying it every post now: there's two Buster Swords.
I mean, you asked for proof that these things were happening in both Zack's September and Cloud's December.As for the Whisper dome, we’re dealing with entities that can transcend space and time, I don’t think it’s such a stretch that two people at different points in time might be able to see them. Perhaps the dome around Midgar exploding is a residual effect of their failed attempt to prevent the future from changing?
Ah. Well, that's a different -- and entirely possible -- kettle of fish altogether from the generally proposed same-timeline theory (i.e. that Cloud and co. changed their own past, the Cloud we control literally is the Cloud who Zack was carrying, etc.).
Also, I'm just going to take to saying it every post now: there's two Buster Swords.
Zack’s last stand took place months before the events of FF7R. The fight with the Whispers occurs within the singularity, which transcends time and space. This results in the outcome of Zack’s last stand changing, but you still have to account for the period of time between when he would have died and when FF7R starts.
Meaning that perhaps something happened between Zack’s survival and where we are now that kept him from reaching Aerith’s church until after we already left Midgar. From Zack’s perspective, he never died, so he never gave up his sword. But this change of the the past isn’t reflected in the future, where we see that Cloud still has the sword. Perhaps being inside the singularity kept him and the others from being affected by the altered timeline, I dunno. Just a theory.
We were shown two points in time, but we do not know if they actually occurred together. Because we know they’re not supposed to, we know Zack’s last stand was months prior. Why would it be different now? Because we can see it? There’s other flashbacks and flashforwards, do they all now occur at the same time because we can see them? It’s not exactly the most compelling evidence in my book.
I addressed the swords, if Cloud being in the Singularity protects his past from being altered by the Whispers then perhaps it wouldn’t erase his sword from being in his possession because to him, it still happened. So we end up with twoThi swords, maybe even two Clouds, but one new timeline. As for the Whisper dome, we’re dealing with entities that can transcend space and time, I don’t think it’s such a stretch that two people at different points in time might be able to see them. Perhaps the dome around Midgar exploding is a residual effect of their failed attempt to prevent the future from changing?
I think you're misunderstanding me. I take @JBedford to be suggesting that the party unknowingly emerged into Alternate Zack's timeline -- so they've been walking down the highway and hitchhiking in September while thinking it's December.There's a problem with this theory because the Ultimania goes out of its way to allude this is clearly a paradoxical outcome. The narrative is aware of the fact that Cloud not inheriting the Buster Sword puts him at odds with being the character who's the main protagonist of FFVII. Would be kinda weird for them to allude to that point, yet simultaneously let such an outcome occur.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I take @JBedford to be suggesting that the party unknowingly emerged into Alternate Zack's timeline -- so they've been walking down the highway and hitchhiking in September while thinking it's December.
I think you just summarized the remake.that's another weird situation we need resolving