SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Eerie]

Isn't it said somewhere in the Compilation that kids love to go in the church usually though?

 

[Makoeyes987]

So what about the kid?

What about him?

I'm not sure what you're implying.

The ending of Crisis Core and FFVII are separated by 3 months. Why would that somehow preclude a child who exists from being shown somewhere twice? Do you think he should have hit his puberty growth spurt, or something?

What if it means that both timelines coexist in the same one though? Because Remake still has the old Stamp I guess, only Intergrade has the new one. So there would be a mix of both Stamps, indicating a mix of both timelines.

The two timelines coexist already. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. You're talking about them fusing together somehow.

If you merge the two distinct dimensions together then you'd have very confused populations trying to figure out why everything is simultaneously different and the same. What would even be the narrative point of that?

The two distinct Stamps acted as a visual clue and reference point. What does having two at the same time mean after making them distinct? And again, how does Zack inhabit the same timeframe as the Remake after being seen and going through his ending of Crisis Core? How did he jump 3 months into the future? Where did that occur?

I don't know why refugees would be in Aerith's church all of a sudden .... we get to go back to the church for the Kyrie event ... and then after that there is an old couple praying. Unless it's some kind of gameplay/story segregation thing

Who says they're refugees?

 

[Theozilla]

Also no surprise, Sonon dies at the end.

Interesting that while the sword impalement is "censored"/tamed down with Nero's darkness particle effects, Sonon does at least have the "dramatic blood seeping from mouth" trope present (plus splatters on Yuffie's face). Wonder how indicative that might be of Aerith's Remake death in regards to its graphicness?

 

[Roundhouse]

Are you going to keep tossing hypotheticals at me?

Yes!

But nah, don't worry -- I was curious to see your response to theories and developments, as you are one of the lore experts in the community.

Theo: You're breaking my heart.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

I think the biggest reason for me to assume

What about him?

I'm not sure what you're implying.

The ending of Crisis Core and FFVII are separated by 3 months. Why would that somehow preclude a child who exists from being shown somewhere twice? Do you think he should have hit his puberty growth spurt, or something?



The two timelines coexist already. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. You're talking about them fusing together somehow.

If you merge the two distinct dimensions together then you'd have very confused populations trying to figure out why everything is simultaneously different and the same. What would even be the narrative point of that?

The two distinct Stamps acted as a visual clue and reference point. What does having two at the same time mean after making them distinct? And again, how does Zack inhabit the same timeframe as the Remake after being seen and going through his ending of Crisis Core? How did he jump 3 months into the future? Where did that occur?



Who says they're refugees?

You need to chill my friend, it ain't dat serious you always get so aggro over this shit
Like I said before I think a couple of month have already past when Zack arrives at the church. But there also could be just time shenanigans at work, after all we see Zack and Cloud pass each other at the same time even though we know that's not possible.
And regarding the kid, why would a child from sector 7 upper plate suddenly be sitting crying in Aerith church lol

 

[Eerie]

And again, how does Zack inhabit the same timeframe as the Remake after being seen and going through his ending of Crisis Core? How did he jump 3 months into the future? Where did that occur?

Dude, I don't know for you, but I've been asking the same about Cloud for 20+ years now... after his last stand, Zack can barely walk and he has to drag Cloud with him so there's that.

If you merge the two distinct dimensions together then you'd have very confused populations trying to figure out why everything is simultaneously different and the same. What would even be the narrative point of that?

It's a really good question. It avoids the trouble of Zack and Aerith dying while at the same time being alive. I think the parallel timeline is still a big possibility, mind you. But then, why make Zack arrive too late in Midgar? There's literally no point to that. Early when we were discussing various timelines, someone (I don't remember who) here mentioned that Nomura had already done a merging a new timeline onto the old one. It would be similar, and it's a possibility.

The fact that Zack is late literally avoids the trouble of him confronting Cloud too early. IF the two timelines are truly merged (which I am not 100% convinced of yet, mind you), then there will be a lot of changes, indeed, even if they keep the skeleton of the OG.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think the biggest reason for me to assume

You need to chill my friend, it ain't dat serious you always get so aggro over this shit
Like I said before I think a couple of month have already past when Zack arrives at the church. But there also could be just time shenanigans at work, after all we see Zack and Cloud pass each other at the same time even though we know that's not possible.
And regarding the kid, why would a child from sector 7 upper plate suddenly be sitting crying in Aerith church lol

I'm perfectly fine, I'm just asking you to explain the massive hole in your assumption.

You're trying to assert that Zack's sequence of events are happening concurrently with Cloud and the others after the ending of FFVII-R.

That doesn't make sense because of the 3 month gap between Crisis Core's ending, and Cloud traveling to Kalm. 3 months separate these two events.

If they happened concurrently, Cloud and the others just chilled on the road and didn't move at all for 3 months on their way to Kalm, because how else do you explain the time gap disappearing? Where did those 3 months go, for Zack to suddenly fast forward and catch up to the depicted events of FFVII-R, when he was just fighting his last stand in CC during the escape from Midgar battle in FFVII-R, which was only the previous night?

Dude, I don't know for you, but I've been asking the same about Cloud for 20+ years now... after his last stand, Zack can barely walk and he has to drag Cloud with him so there's that.

That's not what I'm talking about. Months passed for Cloud because he was suffering from Mako Poisoning. And then was found by Tifa.

Zack (carrying Cloud) passed Cloud and the others on the outskirts of Midgar at the break of dawn, after their battle with Sephiroth. For Zack, that was during Crisis Core. For the others, that was during FFVII.

And that's a separation of 3 months.

The next morning, Cloud and the others are hitching to Kalm.

The next morning for Zack, he visits Aerith's church. How is Zack suddenly 3 months in the future? He was in Crisis Core's time period in the ending. And now we're assuming he's in FFVII. How did that happen?

This doesn't make sense. But it does, if you assume, going by the evidence, that they inhabit different timelines occurring at different points simultaneously. Trying to shoehorn them together in one time and place makes all of it completely incoherent.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I love how this has cleared nothing up. Mako is still confident it's an alt timeline, while the same timeline theorists are still confident it's the same timeline. I really wish we could just get a confirmation one way or another, haha.

Well, it’s the mystery of the story…as frustrating as it may be, there’s really nothing else to do but wait and see

I think we can all agree on one thing.
It's a shit show.

‘fraid not

 

[KindOfBlue]

Unless the whispers of fate were machine gunned out of integrade I'm gonna have to disagree.

Then no, we can’t all agree on one thing

 

[a_apple 2.0]

That doesn't make sense because of the 3 month gap between Crisis Core's ending, and Cloud traveling to Kalm. 3 months separate these two events.

Like I said before I think some couple of months already past lol
The reason for that is for one that Zack is completely healed up and the other reason is that I think the game is referencing the plate drop when Zack arrives. Mainly because we see the boy from the opening sequence sitting in Aerith's church and crying also just the way how the ending is cut plays into that idea, we are shown footage of Aerith looking up at the rain and saying she has suddenly a uneasy feeling just for it to cut to Zack who realizes Aerith left her church. From a narrative perspective the game seems to suggest that these things happen loosely around the same time.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Like I said before I think some couple of months already past lol
The reason for that is for one that Zack is completely healed up and the other reason is that I think the game is referencing the plate drop when Zack arrives. Mainly because we see the boy from the opening sequence sitting in Aerith's church and crying also just the way how the ending is cut plays into that idea, we are shown footage of Aerith looking up at the rain and saying she has suddenly a uneasy feeling just for it to cut to Zack who realizes Aerith left her church. From a narrative perspective the game seems to suggest that these things happen loosely around the same time.

Then what were Cloud and the others doing for 2 months after defeating Sephiroth and making it to the Midgar Wastelands during the ending of Part 1? How did the 3 months get erased to make Zack suddenly fit during the events of FFVII?


I feel like there's a distinct misunderstanding of FFVII-R's ending and when it took place, which has people working backwards to try and affix meaning to what's being shown in Intergrade/Intermission.

The fight against Sephiroth happened within the Singularity... Which then showed the audience that at the same time in the past, the ending of Crisis Core was proceeding. Zack was making his last stand against the Shinra Army, which occurred in September of the year 007.

While Zack was fighting the final battle of Crisis Core, Cloud and the others were fighting against Sephiroth during December of 007, during FFVII-R.

The fight ends and Sephiroth retreats. The FFVII party lands on the outskirts of Midgar, in FFVII-R. Meanwhile, because the Whispers are gone, Zack emerged victorious against the Shinra Army and proceeds to make his way with Mako Poisoned Cloud to Midgar.

We see these two parties cross paths, going in opposite directions because they seemingly happen in the same location, at different points in time. One during Crisis Core. The other during FFVII-R.

Now, in Intermission, we see what happens after that ending with Cloud and the others. They are on the road, hoping to hitch a ride to Kalm.

We also see what happens to Zack. He goes to the church to see Aerith, to see her no longer there, people crying/mourning, and the flowers unkept and not looking so good.

These events cannot be happening at the exact same time because their previous events happen over 3 months apart. They are not in sync. The only way they could be happening concurrently, is if these are two timelines having their events play out in parallel.

It's a succinct and simple answer, that goes by the evidence presented. It is not complicated in the least.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I feel like Mako's correct here, but I wouldn't put wacky-ass shenanigans past Nomura and co. either. At the very least, we have an alternate timeline's Zack and Buster Sword in Remake's timeline -- but it would make more sense if the alternate timeline Zack is still in his home dimension.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah I don’t think the three-month gap is that hard to explain if something was preventing Zack from actually reaching the church until three months later.

His sword is another story though, unless if preventing Zack’s death somehow made a duplicate of the sword or something, I dunno. With something as nebulous as time travel, the rules can be pretty much whatever you want them to be lol.

 

[Yumelinh]

For someone who doesn't really like the idea of different timelines, I got way too happy when I saw that scene of Zack at Aerith's church! That's how I wanted CC to end after all

Anyway, it's kinda exciting to not know what's gonna happen in a game you're supposed to be familiar with..... so I guess bring it on, SE?! ( just don't take to looong ;-

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Then what were Cloud and the others doing for 2 months after defeating Sephiroth and making it to the Midgar Wastelands during the ending of Part 1? How did the 3 months get erased to make Zack suddenly fit during the events of FFVII?

I'm saying Zack dragged his beat up ass to Midgar, we have some time merge thing going on so his Cloud went bye bye. Zack made it to a doc, was in such a bad shape that he was out for a couple of months after he was a-ok he went to Aerith's church by then the team was already on their way to kalm. Also what about the boy from sector 7 upper plate who suddenly shows up in Aerith's church?

 

[JBedford]

I don't see the problem here. I haven't heard anything that contradicts the same-timeline theory. It doesn't seem any less likely to me right now.

We see Cloud and party pass Zack. Zack and Party exist at different moments in time (Zack is three months in the past).

We see Zack three months later (the now, the same time as the party) visiting Aerith's church.

The why of the three months doesn't really matter (recuperating explains it enough). They just needed to have Zack do something to show where Zack is now.

 

[KindOfBlue]

For someone who doesn't really like the idea of different timelines, I got way too happy when I saw that scene of Zack at Aerith's church! That's how I wanted CC to end after all

Anyway, it's kinda exciting to not know what's gonna happen in a game you're supposed to be familiar with..... so I guess bring it on, SE?! ( just don't take to looong ;-

It’s funny, I was just explaining to a friend why I think alternate timelines intersecting in Spider-Man comics are annoying, why it’s a miracle Into the Spider-Verse was as good as it was, and why I don’t particularly care for a live action Spider-Verse movie (though I wouldn’t say I’m against it either).

And yet I don’t have the same kind of aversion to alternate timelines when it comes to FF7. I guess it’s because despite how controversial it is for some, for me it’s really tame compared to the mess I’ve had to endure from years of reading Spider-Man comics lmao. All in all I’m excited, though if we do get a reunion between Zack and Aerith something tells me we’re in for some heartache…

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I'd just like to throw it out there that Zack being present through all that chaos that just happened in Midgar doesn't mesh well with his general disposition here, not like say, everyone else in the church.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah I don’t think the three-month gap is that hard to explain if something was preventing Zack from actually reaching the church until three months later.

His sword is another story though, unless if preventing Zack’s death somehow made a duplicate of the sword or something, I dunno. With something as nebulous as time travel, the rules can be pretty much whatever you want them to be lol.

I'm saying Zack dragged his beat up ass to Midgar, we have some time merge thing going on so his Cloud went bye bye. Zack made it to a doc, was in such a bad shape that he was out for a couple of months after he was a-ok he went to Aerith's church by then the team was already on their way to kalm. Also what about the boy from sector 7 upper plate who suddenly shows up in Aerith's church?

You're missing my point here.

It's about the chain of events, and they're clear. We see them in the ending. There's no confusion because the continuity happens for us. People have seemingly forgotten this.

If you posit that the sequence of events between Zack and the FFVII party are occuring simultaneously and in the same timeline, then you have to follow what's shown after the battle's conclusion in the ending. They're a sequence of events. After Crisis Core's final battle, and FFVII-R's final battle, Cloud and the others pass by Zack. And Zack passes by them. This happens at dawn.

During the day, Cloud and the others are hitching to Kalm. That's right after the ending of Part 1.

Zack dragged his beat up ass to Midgar, we have some time merge thing going on so his Cloud went bye bye. Zack made it to a doc, was in such a bad shape that he was out for a couple of months after he was a-ok he went to Aerith's church by then the team was already on their way to kalm.

And as I have asked you before. Explain to me what Cloud and the others were doing for 2 to 3 months to give Zack enough time to heal up and now make it to the proper coresponding time frame of FFVII? These events cannot be simultaneous yet sperate. You pick one or the other, or accept they're separate timelines.

The children are irrelevant, 3 months isn't going to suddenly change the look of a child. He'd have a corresponding counterpart in the mirror timeline Zack would conceivably inhabit. That's an irrelevant point.

I don't see the problem here. I haven't heard anything that contradicts the same-timeline theory. It doesn't seem any less likely to me right now.

We see Cloud and party pass Zack. Zack and Party exist at different moments in time (Zack is three months in the past).

Oy vey.

So, Crisis Core and FFVII did not happen at the same time. That is the fundamental issue some people are seemingly ignoring. I have no idea how the corresponding gaps in time are being simply ignored to make a theory work, when we literally see the progression of events unfold clearly in the ending.

We see Zack three months later (the now, the same time as the party) visiting Aerith's church.



The why of the three months doesn't really matter (recuperating explains it enough). They just needed to have Zack do something to show where Zack is now.

So again I ask.

What were Cloud and the others doing for 3 months sitting on the side of the road?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm saying Zack dragged his beat up ass to Midgar, we have some time merge thing going on so his Cloud went bye bye.

But not his sword?

Zack made it to a doc, was in such a bad shape that he was out for a couple of months after he was a-ok he went to Aerith's church by then the team was already on their way to kalm.

Mako Poisoning Cloud wasn't even out of action for that long.=P

Also what about the boy from sector 7 upper plate who suddenly shows up in Aerith's church?

Can you explain what you see as relevant about him? Sorry I'm not following the implications.

 

[JBedford]

What were Cloud and the others doing for 3 months sitting on the side of the road?

You misunderstand.

The time between the INTERsection event (Zack's September) and the NOW (Zack at Aerith's church) is three months for Zack
The time between the INTERsection event (Party's December) and the NOW (party at side of road) is no time for Party.

I haven't seen the footage, but why is that not possible?

Edit: To be clear, Zack going to Midgar and the party leaving Midgar are shown at once but do not occur at the same time. That's not what I think.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

If you posit that the sequence of events between Zack and the FFVII party are occuring simultaneously and in the same timeline, then you have to follow what's shown after the battle's conclusion in the ending. Cloud and the others pass by Zack. And Zack passes by them. This happens at dawn.

During the day, Cloud and the others are hitching to Kalm. That's right after the ending of Part 1.

I think you take the Zack crossing Cloud and the team thing to literally. I think it is just symbolic for Cloud Aerith and Zack being on different paths which fits nicely with him entering the empty church.
Also you again didn't answer why the boy from the opening is now sitting crying in Aerith church lol

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Can you explain what you see as relevant about him? Sorry I'm not following the implications.

Well why would a boy from the upper plate of sector 7 be in the church of Aerith with another bunch of crying people? My guess is that this alludes to the plate drop. Everyone who lost there home probably took refuge in Sector 5.

 

[ultima786]

Can yall reply to this lettting me know your non-spoiler impression on how intergrade is handled? Thank you kindly!

 

[Makoeyes987]

You misunderstand.

The time between the INTERsection event and the NOW is three months for Zack
The time between the INTERsection event and the NOW is no time for Party.

I haven't seen the footage, but why is that not possible?

Okay, if they're in the same timeline, how does that even make sense???

3 months for one person, is 3 months for everyone else if they share the same spacetime. 3 months, is 3 months. Time is the same for everybody.

So that makes no sense if Zack is suddenly in the same timeline!!

I think you take the Zack crossing Cloud and the team thing to literally. I think it is just symbolic for Cloud Aerith and Zack being on different paths which fits nicely with him entering the empty church.
Also you again didn't answer why the boy from the opening is now sitting crying in Aerith church lol

You're not making any sense.

If your premise is that Zack and the others are all in the same timeline, then that means their events are occurring simultaneously within the Singularity and they have now come together. How else would they be in the same timeline?

For Zack to be entering the church, while Aerith is commenting on having a bad feeling, the events have to be occurring simultaneously between each other. Which would mean that Zack, is entering the church during FFVII.

This creates a clear inconsistency of missing time, because we were shown during the ending of FFVII-R that the events of Crisis Core and FFVII-R, were happening simultaneously through the Singularity. Cloud and the others are picking up right after that event, as is Zack.

So you need to explain the missing time that would happen if these events which were parallel, are now also happening concurrently within the same timeline. I don't know how else to explain it.

The kid doesn't matter, because I'm not positing your theory. The kid could be the same corresponding child from the Terrier timeline. Him existing doesn't change a single thing if multiple timelines are at work. Because the same people can exist.