SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[ForceStealer]

The scene with Sonon would have been perfectly effective if it just ended at the elevator doors sliding closed, leaving Yuffie alone and horrified on the other side, her face stained with Sonon's blood; and then that is followed up by the scene of her running outside distraught to witness Sector 7's fall.

Like, as overly drawn out as Zack's death scene in CC has often been argued to have been, this one with Sonon takes just all the fucking cheese. All of the cheese!

Totally agree. I was completely fine with the drama up to the point where the doors close. Once it then continued after was when I was like "why are we still on this?"
I gathered he'll be a meat puppet later, maybe a bit more involved than Nyx at the end of XV, but I don't expect any more than that.

And watching the ending I merely assumed Zack's "Aerith...?" was because she wasn't there and it was full of other people.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The DGs are not just some random weirdos, they killed someone she cared about in front of her, and were recognised by both Yuffie and Sonon as something distinct and notable from everything else they had been fighting ...

How many groupings of enemy does Shin-Ra have that are "something distinct and notable"? A lot.

... an event which the story is trying to set up as a pivotal moment for Yuffie and a core part of her motivation. You can't have it both ways, where it is the climax of the story and a defining moment for the character, but also she wasn't really paying attention and never thought about it again or told anyone.

But I'm doing the opposite of that? I'm saying she would have told someone -- when it became relevant as these familiar uniforms showed up shortly prior to Dirge.

Up until then, what specifically useful details would she know to tell? "Shin-Ra sure has a lot of dark secrets/experiments/combat operatives"? Yeah, no kidding. Thanks for the hot tip, girl, but we had kinda noticed over the course of All The Things trying to kill us.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I haven't played this game so I don't have a stake in this debate, but might she not at least have told Cloud and Co during her travels with them, once she learnt to trust them? Might she not have confided in Cloud or Tifa that she'd been travelling with a friend who was brutally killed by some wierd Shinra operatives from underground? Wierder even than the Turks; some gimp in bondage gear! Yuffie has a flair for the dramatic and loves telling stories about herself. And wouldn't Cloud, Tifa and Barret put that together with their own experiences in Shinra's secret underground lab? Knowing Yuffie, though, they might not believe her, so there is that.

 

[looneymoon]

I admittedly didn't read all the posts about Zack, but if the discussion is about whether or not Aerith is there... wasn't the point to like, wonder about that? I mean, it's essentially drawing out the same drama of Crisis Core's ending, where Zack and Aerith's reunion doesn't happen (except now *~*~we don't know~*~*).

As for Yuffie knowing about stuff that makes DoC weird - I'm kinda leaning into the idea that the Remake series is going to conclude stuff left hanging in the Compilation so... it might be addressed, it might just be handwaved away /shrug

 

[KindOfBlue]

It could easily be the same time tho. Not that it has to but the ending of the DLC makes it look like it's evening but that's because of the rain. You had the same affect at the ending of part one where it looked like the sun was already setting just for it 5 minutes later to be clear and sunny again.

But what I mean is that it was sunny in Midgar right after we see rain falling outside Kalm, my general point is that we really can’t rely on the placement of scenes as an indication of wha certain events occurred, the best we can do is assume based on what’s shown

Obviously they can do whatever they want and could end up going in an altogether counterintuitive direction from here. To me, though, "Aerith is in trouble" is just a Cinematic Storytelling 101 reading of this scene.

I mean like I’ve been saying, anybody can evoke the “cinematic storytelling” argument and be completely wrong especially for a story like this that goes out of its way to keep the audience on its toes. Zack’s survival in the main game was already treated with an ominous tone so it doesn’t surprise me that Zack showing up to the church isn’t treated as something celebratory. I dunno, all I’m saying is a fade to black on “Aerith…?” doesn’t exactly trigger any alarm bells for me as to what her status might be yet when they just showed her to us…

I admittedly didn't read all the posts about Zack, but if the discussion is about whether or not Aerith is there... wasn't the point to like, wonder about that?

My brain is too small to keep up with every single hyperanalysis of the story that this fanbase conjours up so I’d rather wait until the ultimania tells me to overthink it

 

[Eerie]

Not quite sold on the likelihood the writers would bother bringing Sonon back, however if they did, it would definitely not be "Sonon" anymore. I mean, he died. Hard. Impaled through all his torso vital organs, without the benefit of being a SOLDIER.

Yeah pretty much. I think Sonon might come back, but... he's dead. It would not be him anymore. So in a way, he's truly dead. But they will expriment on him, and it might be Yuffie's role to put him down for real and release him from his misery.

Edit: @KindOfBlue, if we dismiss the filmmaking and how Nomura did his job, we might as well dismiss everything that is told because anyone can interpret how they want. The point of filmmaking is to use tropes and smoke to tell you how to feel when you see a scene. Why some scenes hit more than others? Because of how they're told.

 

[cold_spirit]

Here's my thoughts on the "Is Yuffie encountering Nero/Deepground a contradiction?" debate:

Before Whisper Harbinger was defeated, I think events like Dirge of Cerberus would've happened in Remake's future. As the game defines, the Whispers maintain "the flow of the great river that is the planet, from inception to oblivion."

Key words being "events like Dirge of Cerberus". It should be noted that the world of Remake is inherently different from the original game's. Previously there was no Leaf House, no Corneo Trio, no Leslie subplot. I doubt Midgar is the only area with examples of this, so I assume the entire timeline has differences with what's presented in the original game and Compilation. Point being, the Whispers don't maintain a perfect replication of events. There are natural variations.

The Whispers have even introduced their own alterations. In the original game, Jessie attended the Mako Reactor #5 bombing mission. In Remake, the Whispers purposely broke Jessie's ankle to force Cloud into the mission. They introduced an alternation to bring about a greater correction. It would seem that some events are more essential than others and the details surrounding them can vary.

Those who have seen/read Steins;Gate might be familiar with "convergence points". Something similar might be at work here.

I like to think in Remake's future before Whisper Harbinger was defeated, Yuffie did warn the party and the WRO about the troops she encountered in the Shinra Building. However, this action did not alter events enough to necessitate the involvement of the Whispers. Maybe the WRO unsealed Deepground instead of a group of reporters. Maybe Kalm was better equipped for an invasion. Ultimately though, Deepground still performed genocide, Omega was summoned, and Vincent put an end to the madness.

With Whisper Harbinger's defeat, however, I think events will spiral so far out of control that there'll be no way for Dirge of Cerberus to take place in this continuity. Time will tell, of course.

 

[Odysseus]

Tets was getting at that too I think, how the world if the remake was already inherently different from the original even without time traveling plot ghosts. I wasn't sure how much weight i should give that, because I'm not sure how much Square wants us to care about those changes to the fine details of the story. If you consider that the remake was an alternate continuity from the original at the outset, with no connection to the compilation as we know it, then does introducing the whispers even matter? All they're doing then is changing things from one set of unknowns to another, none of the preexisting material matters. The big theory with Sephiroth is that he's from after advent children, but in this case he's not from after the movie "advent children", he is from after some slightly different version that would have happened in an unaltered remake continuity, and the whispers version of Kadaj and crew were also from that alternate version.

I guess I didn't seriously consider this because I feel like it's too convoluted even for square, to have the crux of the story hinge on a hypothetical alternative version of the original compilation being replaced by something else, rather than the remake story just trying into the previous material (even as a sequel.) I guess I view the preexisting differences in the remake to be like the design changes to the characters in the compilation from the original; if you take it at face value, that would point to them being seperate continuities, why would cloud have the deepground logo on his belt in the original otherwise? But in the grand scheme of things stuff like that doesn't matter, it's the larger beats that matter.

...

This is hard to explain.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I haven't played this game so I don't have a stake in this debate, but might she not at least have told Cloud and Co during her travels with them, once she learnt to trust them? Might she not have confided in Cloud or Tifa that she'd been travelling with a friend who was brutally killed by some wierd Shinra operatives from underground? Wierder even than the Turks; some gimp in bondage gear! Yuffie has a flair for the dramatic and loves telling stories about herself. And wouldn't Cloud, Tifa and Barret put that together with their own experiences in Shinra's secret underground lab?

But again, what is specifically actionable about that? What call to action beyond what they are already doing would it create for them?

Even assuming she felt like sharing more specifics about her friend's death than "We broke into Scarlet's basement and she sicced her pet freaks on us. He didn't make it," what impetus does her story offer to Cloud and the others that they should make a point of heading back there as soon as Sephiroth is dealt with? Especially once Diamond Weapon and then Meteor wreck the Shin-Ra headquarters, and eventual reconnaissance of the area (after all of the immediate infrastructure and medical needs have been addressed) yields no further survivors or bodies?

Most likely, if she did bring it up, they'd be more concerned with offering their condolences about her friend than making bestiary inquiries. And even if they did compare their editions of Encyclopedia Midgaranica, Barret's just going to be like, "I damn sure bet Scarlet keeps some freaky stuff in the basement. You wouldn't believe the shit we ran into in Hojo's zoo on the top floors."

For that matter -- and this is a question for @Clement Rage most of all -- why does Yuffie randomly decide that her former Shin-Ra executive friend, Reeve, definitely doesn't know about the security goons in the glowy suits she ran into or their Lovecraftian bondage buddy? Why does she feel the need to tell him about this when he doesn't ask her specifically if she suspects there's a secret army in an enormous secret underground facility headed up by a secret cadre of extra special supersoldiers?

And for that matter, seeing as Reeve at least knew that Shin-Ra had a program called "Deepground" -- the details of which he was told was on a need-to-know basis -- why didn't he investigate the matter? Unless he didn't believe there was anything left to investigate after the world, Midgar in particular, got wrecked? Or maybe he did, yet there was nothing to find?

There are soooo maaaany reasons why the specific series of discussions that would need to happen for anyone to make enough of Yuffie's encounter with Deepground so as to prevent the events of Dirge are preposterously unlikely. Even with discussions happening, the specifics of what Deepground actually is are so outside the boundaries of what could have been reasonably expected as to make the notion a slums-to-plate reach.

You're technically right about the reporter, but I can't imagine the WRO not taking an interest in a crew poking around Shinra HQ or allowing it to happen without being involved.

Does "taking an interest" have to amount to trying to strong-arm the media at gunpoint or dictate what a group of civilian volunteers is doing? Does a former Shin-Ra executive with noble intentions really want that kind of publicity?

Though "We've been told we shouldn't be here" could explain the urgent, almost frantic pace at which the reporters and investigation crew were making their way into the ruins? But that again points to this not being the WRO conducting this investigation.

The big theory with Sephiroth is that he's from after advent children, but in this case he's not from after the movie "advent children", he is from after some slightly different version that would have happened in an unaltered remake continuity, and the whispers version of Kadaj and crew were also from that alternate version.

I do actually think he's our original Sephiroth from after the movie, and that he's simply -- to borrow some "Loki" terminology -- now become a Variant of sorts.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I take your point, Tres, but on the other hand, when a plot depends on characters not talking to each other about stuff that would tend to arise sooner or later in conversation about the mission they're on, in not making connections that are obvious to fans, and in not taking actions that it would seem in character for them to take (such as Cloud and Barret not resting until the full threat from Shinra has been dealt with), then that's normally weak writing. This is especially the case when one of those characters - Yuffie - loves to boast about her exploits. You really think she's going to pass up the chance to brag about how much bigger and more dangerous the underground Shinra warrior she took on was than any of these grunts, SOLDIER 3rds or monsters she's encountering with the gang?

You'd think Cloud, at least, would take a professional interest in any mention of some hitherto unknown, hyperpowerful Shinra warriors. In OTWTAS, Cloud, Barret and Tifa are trying to carve out new, post-apocalyptic, peacetime lives for themselves because they think the danger posed by Shinra to the planet and its people was ended when Sephiroth was ended and Shinra collapsed. This time around, they have seen for themselves the secret labs under the city and all the horrors therein, and Yuffie knows about and has fought some uniquely different Shinra military who never (in the OC) crop up again. It just seems a bit out of character for Cloud, Barret, Tifa and all to blithely assume the threat posed by whatever lurks underground to have simply gone away. They didn't have to deal with this in the OG because it didn't exist then.

However, I'm only making a general comment here, since I haven't seen the DLC and I've never seen or played DoC. So I don't know if there really are any glaring contradictions.

 

[Odysseus]

do actually think he's our original Sephiroth from after the movie, and that he's simply -- to borrow some "Loki" terminology -- now become a Variant of sorts.

What I'm trying to say is that a few people's explanations for why Yuffie meeting deepground here and the whispers being nowhere to be seen is that the remake is it's own seperate continuity from the compilation from the outset, before the whispers get involved. This is evidenced by things like the leaf house existing, or the wall market trio existing, or Leslie and his subplot, which were all things different from the original without whisper involvement. These differences could potentially mean that the events of advent children and dirge were never going to happen in the future of the remake anyway, as there's already a precedent for it being different. That's what Tets was saying when I started this discussion, and what cold spirit reiterated just a few posts ago. This would mean that the remake has no connection with the compilation or the original FF7 and is effectively a self contained narrative that just borrows elements from prior ff7 materials. Thus, Yuffie's doc doesn't contradict dirge because it exists in an AU where Dirge's plot was never going to happen.

I personally think this is a leap too far, because I think the remake is meant to close out the compilation rather than existing separately from it. I think those differences are superficial and just to add depth to the original story for the sake of modernizing it and making it more justified as a full length game, rather than indicating that it's wholly removed from prior materials. I'm pretty sure the larger story here is Sephiroth's final crack at victory by going back somehow after AC and trying to rewrite history, making this game a follow up rather than a reboot.

 

[cold_spirit]

These differences could potentially mean that the events of advent children and dirge were never going to happen in the future of the remake anyway, as there's already a precedent for it being different. That's what Tets was saying when I started this discussion, and what cold spirit reiterated just a few posts ago. This would mean that the remake has no connection with the compilation or the original FF7 and is effectively a self contained narrative that just borrows elements from prior ff7 materials. Thus, Yuffie's doc doesn't contradict dirge because it exists in an AU where Dirge's plot was never going to happen.

I mean, not exactly. Like I said, I think a version of AC and DC was going to happen in Remake's future had the Whispers gotten their way, but it wouldn't be exactly like the on-screen events we saw of those titles.

To be really precise: I'm a believer of separate, asynchronous timelines. As such, I think the events of the original game/Compilation happened before Remake in another timeline. That Sephiroth has since found his way to Remake's timeline (i.e. the Beagle timeline) and is wreaking all sorts of havoc, causing the Planet to activate the Whispers and Aerith to gain memories of the original game. I actually don't think time travel is involved at all, what we're seeing is an interacting multiverse.

So I wouldn't say Remake has no connection to the previous titles and I wouldn't say it's self contained. I theorize all three timelines (original game/Compilation, Beagle, and Terrier) will be canon to each other when all is said and done.

 

[Odysseus]

I mean, if it's an AU anyway then that make the whispers a pointless plot element because they could have just made things different from the start in that case.

And does that mean that the Zack from the original universe is alive again now, if you're saying that the beagle universe is the new one?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This is so cool! They can simply keep remaking FFVII over and over and over again, with new additions every time, while the poor people of Midgar cycle repetitively through their Moebius loop apocalyptic version of Groundhog Day.

 

[Eerie]

I'm totally with Ody there; what we have to remember is what the devs told us themselves what they wanted to do: to encompass the Compilation into FFVII the original title, so everything would be smoother. Nomura with his mysterious "Remake" is planting theories about time loops, alternate universes, etc. but I think it's far-fetched. The most I can say is, in the way Remake diverges from the original doesn't make it that different. To me, Remake could happen instead of the OG, and vice-versa. The reason why they want people to know about the OG and the Compilation is for them to enjoy Remake *more*. They can see the nods and how the Compilation is integrated and anticipate some events and fights. It's another way to tell the OG, while expanding on it greatly.

This is how I see Remake and why to me there's no time loop, Remake is not another continuity etc. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but so far the only timeline error that could be constructed as a parallel timeline, is Zack's. Then you have Sephiroth from chapter 18 that we don't really know about and can only theorise. So far, that's it.

 

[cold_spirit]

I mean, if it's an AU anyway then that make the whispers a pointless plot element because they could have just made things different from the start in that case.

And does that mean that the Zack from the original universe is alive again now, if you're saying that the beagle universe is the new one?

Hmmm, the storytellers have a point they're trying to make with Whispers. Your milage will vary whether you like it I suppose.

As for Zack, I theorize he's alive in the Terrier timeline, which I see as separate from the original game and Beagle timelines. So original game Zack is dead, Beagle Zack is dead, and Terrier Zack is alive and well.

 

[Odysseus]

For me personally, I think the differences from the OG would need to be more substantial for me to believe beagle world is it's own seperate thing. Right now it's just slightly different in ways that don't really matter much to the compilation outside of this small thing with Yuffie which I still don't think is all that big of a deal.

Part 2 is unfortunately what we'll need to see before we can be more certain though...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If you think SE are ever going to clarify things, let me make a prediction.
We'll still be arguing about the meaning of the Whispers and the Terrier v Beagle timelines in the old folks' home.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm trying to say is that a few people's explanations for why Yuffie meeting deepground here and the whispers being nowhere to be seen is that the remake is it's own seperate continuity from the compilation from the outset, before the whispers get involved. This is evidenced by things like the leaf house existing, or the wall market trio existing, or Leslie and his subplot, which were all things different from the original without whisper involvement. These differences could potentially mean that the events of advent children and dirge were never going to happen in the future of the remake anyway, as there's already a precedent for it being different. That's what Tets was saying when I started this discussion, and what cold spirit reiterated just a few posts ago. This would mean that the remake has no connection with the compilation or the original FF7 and is effectively a self contained narrative that just borrows elements from prior ff7 materials. Thus, Yuffie's doc doesn't contradict dirge because it exists in an AU where Dirge's plot was never going to happen.

The remake is its own separate continuity from the outset, yeah (Nomura said that before the game was even released), but see, the reason I got incredulous with that explanation from Tets is that a version of AC was clearly meant to have happened in Remake's Beagle Timeline. We had the trio of Whispers based on the AC brothers, which we all agree indicates a version of AC being intended.

So to acknowledge that but also suggest a version of Dirge's events wasn't also on the table just comes across as a case of Special Pleading.

I mean, not exactly. Like I said, I think a version of AC and DC was going to happen in Remake's future had the Whispers gotten their way, but it wouldn't be exactly like the on-screen events we saw of those titles.

To be really precise: I'm a believer of separate, asynchronous timelines. As such, I think the events of the original game/Compilation happened before Remake in another timeline. That Sephiroth has since found his way to Remake's timeline (i.e. the Beagle timeline) and is wreaking all sorts of havoc, causing the Planet to activate the Whispers and Aerith to gain memories of the original game. I actually don't think time travel is involved at all, what we're seeing is an interacting multiverse.

So I wouldn't say Remake has no connection to the previous titles and I wouldn't say it's self contained. I theorize all three timelines (original game/Compilation, Beagle, and Terrier) will be canon to each other when all is said and done.

Hmmm, the storytellers have a point they're trying to make with Whispers. Your milage will vary whether you like it I suppose.

As for Zack, I theorize he's alive in the Terrier timeline, which I see as separate from the original game and Beagle timelines. So original game Zack is dead, Beagle Zack is dead, and Terrier Zack is alive and well.

All this is me as well.

 

[Odysseus]

Do you think ever crisis will be those versions of events, or is that a separate thing. It's just bizarre to me to have the plot hinge on events we've never seen the relevant versions of. It's also funny to me that a "compilation" version of FF7 just doesn't exist, since the OG can't really be canon to the compilation either.

 

[Tetsujin]

I've suggested from the beginning that a version of the compilation events *would* have happened in the Remake future, just differed in the details btw. Not that DoC outright didn't happen.

 

[Odysseus]

That just feels kind of stupid and pointless to me, but then again, this is Square Enix.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've suggested from the beginning that a version of the compilation events *would* have happened in the Remake future, just differed in the details btw. Not that DoC outright didn't happen.

Sorry if I misunderstood. The nuances of all our positions have gotten muddled once or twice (or six times, since this topic is such an ouroboros).

Do you think ever crisis will be those versions of events, or is that a separate thing.

Excellent question. I wish I knew enough to guess with confidence.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That just feels kind of stupid and pointless to me, but then again, this is Square Enix.

How is it stupid? A journey is not simply defined by it's destination.

Certain events by the nature of the characters involved simply compel themselves to happen in some form or another.

Even if there's precedent to be "different" via the inclusion of new events or interpretations, there's also the fact certain character motivations, carrying on towards their expected end point, will demand an action that will compel an outcome. In fact, I'd argue certain new events and inclusions compel this Remake continuity to swing even more in line with what we know to happen in the continuity of the Compilation we've already seen.

Aerith tending to orphans in Midgar? Healing them of ailments with her flowers that grow in her church? Undercity children knowing her well while the pasts of The Kids Are Alright characters unfolds as depicted in the novel? That's a lot of similar coincidences for a continuity that is meant to veer completely off the rails of expectations.

Hojo is enraptured with the idea of digitizing himself, and has taken interest in Weiss. Deepground exists. The Tsviets want out, and are going to push the boundaries of their freedom. Barring the Tsviets being put down before Meteorfall or being set free, a sequence of events reminiscent of Dirge of Cerberus still lies in wait in the future of this new continuity. It could be 65% the same, or 98% the same but there's nothing at play preventing this outcome.

That's why predicting with certainty these writers are 100% all in on rewriting history or whatever is not so clear cut. There's plenty of evidence that, at the very least, they're somewhat ambivalent to that course of action. There's plenty shown to imply history may indeed repeat itself.

 

[Odysseus]

Sorry