Ivalice Alliance/the Final Fantasy Tactics Page

[Strangelove]

- First page

Now, I have a question, especially for those very up on FF12's plot. The Lucavi being Espers, was that simply a nod or was there a plot reasoning to it that I missed? I know FFXII is centuries before Tactics, is it still after the Lucavi were defeated by the Zodiac Braves?

It is.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Ivalice-time.jpg

(Excuse the names, since I don't really remember what they're supposed to be and cba looking them up)

History of FFXII

- Date unknown
Occuria take to living in hiding in Gilvegan

- First year of the Old Valendia calender
Galtea alliance founded

- Year 394 of the OV calender
Galtea alliance dissolved

- Year 706 of the OV calender
Adventure of Vaan and the party (FFXII)

- Several decades after 706
Saint Ajora (female) begins a new religion


History of FFT

- Date unknown
12 heroes defeat the Demon King and save Ivalice

- 1200 years before Ivalice middle ages
Saint Ajora founds the Grebados religion

- Date unknown
All prior civilization is lost due to a massive catastrophe

- Ivalice middle ages
Start of the War of the Lions (FFT)


Sign between the Ajora dates: Possibility of being the same person?

(From the Ultimania Omega)

Although it doesn't give an actual date, that does still place it a long time before FFXII.

 

[Dark and Divine]

The only two games i played from the Ivalice Alliance up until now were FFXII and Vagrant Story and i loved the two of them.

XII, while not my favourite FF, it's still way up there. I loved the battle system, the intricate plot and i had the feeling that i was indeed exploring an entire world. The locations' and characters' designs are just stunning and very detailed and the music, while not very memorable, it fitted the atmosphere of the game flawlessly. My only complaint is that some of the characters are not very memorable, while others could have some more development, but other than that, FFXII is a work of art.

The same things i adore in XII are found in Vagrant Story. Again, the battle system, the plot, the character's design, the atmospheric music were very, very good. The puzzles in certain areas were also a lot of fun. The only flaw i can find is that the locations tend to be very similar to each other. But it is only a minor breach in this game's impeccable armour.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Not to reopen old wounds, but now I'm genuinely curious:

What strategies have people worked out with the Espers? I started a similar thread on the FF Wiki, & even from fans, I got that using Espers was often a waste of time & MP.

 

[Masamune]

Not to reopen old wounds, but now I'm genuinely curious:

What strategies have people worked out with the Espers? I started a similar thread on the FF Wiki, & even from fans, I got that using Espers was often a waste of time & MP.

Ironic that when I posted a guide on utilizing Espers, you told me you didn't even have any interest left in the game...

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Ironic that when I posted a guide on utilizing Espers, you told me you didn't even have any interest left in the game...

I don't. Think of this as "making conversation," not "asking for advice."

Even if I were to go back to playing FFXII, I would still avoid using the Espers. Something that will only be advantageous under extreme circumstances isn't "strategic," it is essentially useless.

To put it simply, the benefits of using the Espers just does not justify the cost. First of all, the battles are extremely difficult. Second of all, you have to use MP that would otherwise be great for spells or Quickenings. Third of all, Espers are not only toned down in this game, they are pathetically weak. It's difficult trying to fight & heal yourself when your Esper is in constant need of care. Fourth of all, you have only the vaguest control over an Esper once summoned. And, unlike a similar system, such as the DMW, the Esper can fuck you over.

There is the planning of their special moves, but so what? *Zalara's attack is all-or-nothing, Shemhazai's you have to charge by using an otherwise useless item hundreds of times, Hashmal's you have to put yourself at risk of being killed for, Ultima's you have to put her AND you at risk of death, & Zodiark you have to petrify yourself for (although the benefit is arguably worth it, here).

The rest are fairly decent, but I know from personal experience that you're better off just using a Quickening chain.

*=Zalera, particularly, is the epitome of worthless summons. Instant kill moves don't work on most enemies, & he only uses Holy to heal himself.

Furthermore, they are MASSIVE Guide Damn It's. How the Hell are you supposed to know you need to petrify yourself to use Final Eclipse, or Immobilize Exodus for him to use Meteor, anyway?

If you get them from a guide, they aren't strategies you've worked out on your own, anyway, so the point is moot.

Which is part of the reason I don't want a link to a guide. I don't want some TL;DR summary, I want a proof of concept. Something that says, "Yes, I am an Esper fan, & I use them strategically."

Also preferably something that makes me eat my words. If you say something like, "To defend against an elemental attack," I am going to laugh at you, & suggest that you search through my posts again.

I hope that didn't come off as antagonistic, but I am quite convinced that I am accurate in all of my claims on the relative uselessness of FFXII's summoning system. However, I'm open to the possibility that I am mistaken.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

No you're right, Espers are relatively useless.

 

[Max Payne]

No you're right, Espers are relatively useless.

No, you're wrong, they're not.

I've made use of them several time during difficult hunts thanks to guides like the one Masa has.

They're only as useless as the person using them.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Can you tell me how to make good use of them? Most of the time, especially in later stages of the game, the pattern seems to go

*Summon Esper*

*They get killed by overwhemingly strong Mark in seconds*

I mean, when I played, it just seemed easier to bash the enemy straight up with my party members than to spend time continuously healing an Esper.

 

[Max Payne]

Why should I have to explain in paragraph after paragraph when the guide has already been posted?

All you have to do is read it man.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'll take a look at it.

I mean, just from the top of my head, I can't see it though. "Great, Famfrit, you can do 9999 damage with your attack that takes a few seconds to do! However it doesn't really matter since my party can do 9999 in several combo hits with 3 characters at one time!"

I just can't see the advantage Espers have in that scenario.

 

[Max Payne]

You said they were useless dood. Whether or not you can find any personal advantages in using them is up to you, but useless they are not.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I did say relatively useless. There's almost nothing they can't do that the party can do much, much better 3 times over.

 

[Max Payne]

I did say relatively useless. There's almost nothing they can't do that the party can do much, much better 3 times over.

That doesn't make them relatively useless. There are still benefits to be had from making proper use of them in battle. Just because you can't find a use for them, doesn't make them generally so.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

That does make them relatively useless. They're useless relative to the party itself, which can do anything they can easier, faster, and with less resources. They're not literally useless, but when almost anything can can do be emulated with at least three times more efficiency with the main party, that makes them more or less useless compared to the main party.

Alright, so maybe 'useless' is the wrong buzzword here, so let me amend it. By and far, the Espers mostly fucking suck.

 

[Max Payne]

That does make them relatively useless. They're useless relative to the party itself, which can do anything they can easier, faster, and with less resources. They're not literally useless, but when almost anything can can do be emulated with at least three times more efficiency with the main party, that makes them more or less useless compared to the main party.

Alright, so maybe 'useless' is the wrong buzzword here, so let me amend it. By and far, the Espers mostly fucking suck.

If think they suck, then that's you.

But they're very useful for strategy and if you use them properly in a tight spot, can save your skin.

Just because they're not the magical one hit wonders they used to be does not make them worthless.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I just don't see it, considering that the party can do anything they can several times better and easier. That's not really objective or a matter of perspective, man!

 

[Max Payne]

I just don't see it, considering that the party can do anything they can several times better and easier. That's not really objective or a matter of perspective, man!

Then you just don't know how to use them strategically.

And there are attacks that espers use that can do upwards from 30,000 damage to 60,000 in one go. If you're going to go by that logic that's something the party can't do.

I've used Espers to survive many a boss fight, and even won some with them, through proper preparation and strategy. That's a fact.

They are useful if you know what you're doing. Read Masa's guide, it's got strategies and whatnot that can help you get use out of them. The whole point of them is that they're an option, another piece on your chess board to help you find victory, but they're not integral to your success. They're an option that's available and can prove to be useful in an encounter if you know how to use them.

 

[Makoeyes987]

All I have to do is point towards Zodiark, if you want an example of an Esper that not only doesn't suck but proves itself useful time and time again. It's one of the strongest Espers in the game that can easily take care of itself, and can deal damage well beyond what a Quickening chain can do with less effort and reliance on luck and button mashing.

Zodiark is INHERENTLY buffed with Protect, Shell, Haste, Faith, and Libra. It penetrates reflect, has short charge, and a healthy amount of HP. He's extremely useful. Using him in at the beginning of a boss fight is best so he can get his attacks in easily before the boss's last ditch inherent abilities kick in and cause it to start going into overdrive.


Furthermore, it's "Final Eclipse" is pretty easy to pull off. So that right there is an Esper that doesn't suck.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, I'll accede to that. Zodiark is insane.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Zodiark is special. But he's also irrelevent to the argument, because he's the "overpowered one-hit wonder" all of the fans are bitching about.

And here's the thing: You can't damn well tell someone they "don't know how to use them strategically" if you got what you know from a fucking GUIDE. That means you don't know what you're doing either, you just copied someone else's strategy.

That's why I'm asking proponents of the Espers to explain, in their own words, some strategies that can be used. I don't need an entire page worth of explanation, but so far, it's looking to me like my criticizers suffer from the same supposed defect as I do. So, rather than admit that the Espers really aren't worth it, they resort to, "No, if you conform to these EXACT tactics, they're awesome!" Yeah, believe it or not, that's not any more strategic than the guy who releases wave after wave of summon to deal with an enemy. In fact, it's less strategic. At least that guy has a reliable method, & he came up with it on his own.

Furthermore, the usage of "relatively useless" is important. Yes, I have gotten the edge in a boss fight or 2 by using an Esper. But, by & large, they've been more of a hinderance than a help.

 

[Tetsujin]

I recently tried to beat Vagrant Story. Again.

Once more, I failed. I'm sorry, but this game's gameplay is just way too tedious. Sucks, as the story got me rather interested...=/

*attempt at getting this topic away from FFXII again*

 

[Neo Bahamut]

*attempt at getting this topic away from FFXII again*

May as well, I don't see it going anywhere.

Tedious gameplay doesn't bother me. I've learned that the best way to get abilities in FFT is simply to prolong the battles to ridiculous extremes. And there's no real content in the world map. Thank Ajora the story & battle system are awesome...at least when not up against random monsters.

 

[Madame Mayor]

And here's the thing: You can't damn well tell someone they "don't know how to use them strategically" if you got what you know from a fucking GUIDE. That means you don't know what you're doing either, you just copied someone else's strategy.

It's not a strategy guide we are talking about though right? We are talking about a guide SOMEONE made. That someone is a regular person who happened to play the game and figure things out on their own and write up a guide. People read the guide if they prefer that to figuring everything out on their own. So where's the problem with that?

Or, the other option is that they did figure it out on their own, but that guide is already made/written well, and therefore it's easier just to post that than re-write what it says.

*attempt at getting this topic away from FFXII again*

Sorry, just had to point that out.

So, I don't know much about Vagrant Story, what's it like? What about it links to Ivalice?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

It's not a strategy guide we are talking about though right? We are talking about a guide SOMEONE made. That someone is a regular person who happened to play the game and figure things out on their own and write up a guide.

Good question. I'm glad someone brought that up. Basically, I see it as being 1 of 2 things:

1) Most guides are, in fact, just rewrites of the shit that's in the strategy guide. However, I don't think that is the case for this guide, since FFXII's strategy guide is pretty much useless, so that leads me to Point 2:

2) There are probably about 3 or 4 guides on any 1 subject on any given site for any given game. So, just because a handful of people can figure these things out, it doesn't mean that the majority of proponents have any business telling the opponents what's what.

People read the guide if they prefer that to figuring everything out on their own. So where's the problem with that?

There isn't one. However, the point I'm making is that if you read the guide, you did not come up with the strategy. Therefore, you have no business telling someone that they "don't think strategically," because neither do you.

Or, the other option is that they did figure it out on their own, but that guide is already made/written well, and therefore it's easier just to post that than re-write what it says.

One person in this topic said, "If the Espers suck, it's because you do." I'm sorry, but I want more than the words "think strategically" & a link or a copy/pasta, I want that claim backed up.

Frankly, I find it absurd. I've played FFT. I've taken the height & type of the terrain, the CT time, the enemies' equipment & positions relative to my units, the total damage & % to hit numbers, & the freakin' WEATHER into consideration all before making a single move in several battles. And now I'm being told that I don't "think strategically" because I keep getting my ass handed to me every time I pull out one of those uncontrolled time bombs with the defense of your garden-variety goblin?

That's...stupid.

Sorry, just had to point that out.

Again, I'm glad someone did. I don't mind explaining my reasoning at all.

So, I don't know much about Vagrant Story, what's it like? What about it links to Ivalice?

I only have a very superficial knowledge of this title, as well. If it's the thing I'm thinking of, it has no real "links," other than a few in-game references. So yes, do tell more.

 

[Madame Mayor]

There are probably about 3 or 4 guides on any 1 subject on any given site for any given game. So, just because a handful of people can figure these things out, it doesn't mean that the majority of proponents have any business telling the opponents what's what.

Correct me if I'm not understanding you correctly, but how many guides there are is a very poor count of people who can figure things out on their own. They are just the people who figured it out and then spent their time writing it out for others in case they were having difficulty.

Most guides are, in fact, just rewrites of the shit that's in the strategy guide. However, I don't think that is the case for this guide, since FFXII's strategy guide is pretty much useless

I found it to be one of the best guides I ever used. I have the limited edition one, not sure if it's any different from the regular one, but I loved it. I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to spend time figuring stuff out on my own in an RPG though, so I always use guides.

eg. Looking up what's selling in shops so I don't have to go on a mad search for a specific accessory.

One person in this topic said, "If the Espers suck, it's because you do." I'm sorry, but I want more than the words "think strategically" & a link or a copy/pasta, I want that claim backed up.

And what I'm saying is it seems like it was done for convenience rather than the person not knowing themselves. I couldn't write guides myself (considered doing it for a few games I was really good at) because I'm not very good at explaining my strategies.

So are you saying that in this case, if you were asking me a question about a game and I linked you to someone who I thought explained it best that would mean I couldn't figure it out myself or wasn't backing my claim up?