Ivalice Alliance/the Final Fantasy Tactics Page

[Strangelove]

In the International version, you can control the espers yourself and use their special commands by just selecting it from the command menu.

Just saying

I don't think Vagrant Story ever explicitly states that it's set in Ivalice, but it is sort of implied. It has items which reference characters from FFT, FFXII uses certain terms from it (Valendia, Kiltia). One of FFXII's Ultimanias also mentions it as a game that possibly takes place in Ivalice.

 

[Madame Mayor]

In the International version, you can control the espers yourself and use their special commands by just selecting it from the command menu.

I'm still so sad that this is never going to show up here in English. I know I could probably figure it out (I played a few emulated Japanese games as a kid and figured out which symbols meant 'attack' or 'item', ) but still.

Wasn't that the way Espers were in the demo? I remember playing the demo and then playing the game when it came out and thinking they were very different.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Hit-&-run post:

I know that for everyone who writes a guide, there's probably a lot of people who know the tricks on their own, but don't. In most cases. I'm reluctant to say that rule applies with the Espers, considering how specific that guide gets, what with working out the mechanics of Shemhazai's attack, & all of that shit.

Also, there's a difference between explaining something when you are asked & being able to back up your challenge.

If I asked you for help, I would gladly accept your guide.

What's essentially going on here is that I've had my skill & intellect challenged, & I'm trying to get the challengers to live up to their own challenge. I think it's serious oxenschite that you can't dislike a battle system without having all sorts of baseless labels attached to you.

Yeah, in my original playthrough off FFVII, I took the overwhelm-bosses-with-summons stance, but that was 8 years ago. And in the other noteable games I've played, it's a bit different. In X, they act as independent characters, while in Tactics they take so long to charge that you HAVE to use other techniques. Furthermore, summon materia seriously dampens your physical stats, so if I ever get to play FFVII again, I'll use them a lot more conservatively.

Plus, the whole damn concept flies out the window when you realize that you don't REALLY get super-summons until late in the game, anyway. Zodiark, Anima, Bahamut ZERO, all of that shit comes after you've gotten through most of the plot.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Zodiark is special. But he's also irrelevent to the argument, because he's the "overpowered one-hit wonder" all of the fans are bitching about.

So I give a strategy and explanation as to how one of the esper's don't suck and it's irrelevant because he's "overpowered." Wow. Someone sure likes to be right. You didn't say "all Espers suck except Zodiark." you said

"Espers are not only toned down in this game, they are pathetically weak. It's difficult trying to fight & heal yourself when your Esper is in constant need of care."

And I've just refuted your statement by giving you an example of an Esper that not only has a healthy level of HP, but is capable of healing itself AND keeping itself buffed at the same time. It has the strongest attack in the entire game, and its best strategic use is to use him early in the fight so that he takes off a chunk of the enemies HP before it goes critical and unlocks a plethora of other inherent abilities that power it up. Zodiark is easy to use and capable of using strategically.

And here's the thing: You can't damn well tell someone they "don't know how to use them strategically" if you got what you know from a fucking GUIDE. That means you don't know what you're doing either, you just copied someone else's strategy.

That makes no sense. No one knows everything of the game from the get go, and people learn their strategies and game mechanics from somewhere. Knowledge doesn't spawn from a vacuum.

That's why I'm asking proponents of the Espers to explain, in their own words, some strategies that can be used. I don't need an entire page worth of explanation, but so far, it's looking to me like my criticizers suffer from the same supposed defect as I do. So, rather than admit that the Espers really aren't worth it, they resort to, "No, if you conform to these EXACT tactics, they're awesome!" Yeah, believe it or not, that's not any more strategic than the guy who releases wave after wave of summon to deal with an enemy. In fact, it's less strategic. At least that guy has a reliable method, & he came up with it on his own.

Yeah, already done, and now you're bitching that it doesn't count? Hilarious.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The whole wordwall is pointless, since Zodiark is exactly the thing that is being complained about. Fact. Yes, I'm making a sweeping generalization about the Espers. No, the fact that I did not specifiy, "...except for Zodiark" does not weaken my argument in any way shape or form. You're just looking for any tiny weakness in my argument to distract from the fact that you have no argument.

If you don't want to back up your challenge, don't complain when I dismiss your assertions about my "lack of strategy" as baseless & idiotic. It's that simple.

 

[Max Payne]

Lol.

 

[Tetsujin]

To me, the Espers seemed rather useless too, imo.

They were fixed for the Japanese re-release. Why do you think that was?

 

[ForceStealer]

The Zodiac edition sounds better in absolutely every conceivable way and it pisses me off that we won't get it.

So, I don't know much about Vagrant Story, what's it like? What about it links to Ivalice?

Tenuous...but perhaps more substantial than any of the other links in the Ivalice Alliance games. From what I've learned, the biggest apparent link is mention of Ordallia (a neighboring Kingdom in the original Tactics). I also think one of the characters is hinted to be a relative of a character in Tactics. I too have never really gotten far due to the battle system. I want to like it though...

But really it isn't much, and like how this thread started, I'm not really crazy about how vague the connections are. I know someone will want to say something about the story not having to hand things to me, but FFXII's references to the rest of Ivalice aren't really any more substantial than its nods to other Final Fantasies. Frankly I think they gave it a stronger link to V with Gilgamesh running around.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The big thing XII has going for it is that it mentions St. Ajora at some point.

And I'm pretty sure Marche is supposed to be a relative of Ramza's.

 

[ForceStealer]

And that the espers are the Lucavi...but as shown in the thread, there's not a ton of connection there either.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

And that the espers are the Lucavi...but as shown in the thread, there's not a ton of connection there either.

Agreed. That's why I think that, as a distant prequal (among other things), FFXII sucks.

 

[Strangelove]

To me, the Espers seemed rather useless too, imo.

They were fixed for the Japanese re-release. Why do you think that was?

Not everything they fixed was for the better.

I'm sorry, but I don't think Larsa no longer having unlimited High Potions is a good thing.

Also, they made Quickenings weaker

And renamed 'Vaccine' to 'C6H06D' or something, which confused me. I thought the game had broke or something

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Quickenings I'm 50/50 on. They were overpowered, but a lot of bosses had ridiculous defense levels.

As for the vaccine thing, maybe they wanted to make it sound like a chemical formula? Can't, for the life of me, figure out why, though....

 

[Makoeyes987]

The whole wordwall is pointless, since Zodiark is exactly the thing that is being complained about. Fact. Yes, I'm making a sweeping generalization about the Espers. No, the fact that I did not specifiy, "...except for Zodiark" does not weaken my argument in any way shape or form. You're just looking for any tiny weakness in my argument to distract from the fact that you have no argument.

You are so fucking ridiculous and acerbic. I would find conversation with Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity more entertaining than reading one of your posts. Are you trolling here now? Your argument is weakened. Stop acting like an immature tit. Yes. There is a weakness and I've proven an Esper as playable and usable. How could I have no argument if I just proved your generalization of Espers in FFXII inaccurate by citing an example of a usable Esper? Are you schizophrenic? Or do you genuinely believe your own egocentric stupidity?

If you don't want to back up your challenge, don't complain when I dismiss your assertions about my "lack of strategy" as baseless & idiotic. It's that simple.

...Does anyone else see the assine bullshit of this? First he says he wants someone to NOT quote a FAQ and post their own strategy. Then he says to back it up with something. What the hell do you want?

 

[Ryushikaze]

You are so fucking ridiculous and acerbic. I would find conversation with Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity more entertaining than reading one of your posts. Are you trolling here now? Your argument is weakened. Stop acting like an immature tit. Yes. There is a weakness and I've proven an Esper as playable and usable. How could I have no argument if I just proved your generalization of Espers in FFXII inaccurate by citing an example of a usable Esper? Are you schizophrenic? Or do you genuinely believe your own egocentric stupidity?



...Does anyone else see the assine bullshit of this? First he says he wants someone to NOT quote a FAQ and post their own strategy. Then he says to back it up with something. What the hell do you want?

To win an argument. Simple as that. He must be correct, hence the goalpost shifts.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

You 2 can think whatever the Hell you want. In particular:

...Does anyone else see the assine bullshit of this? First he says he wants someone to NOT quote a FAQ and post their own strategy. Then he says to back it up with something. What the hell do you want?

These are not mutually exclusive. In fact, it's pretty obvious. "Back up your assertion that I'm not 'strategic' with proof that you are in any position to make this claim, IE your own God damn strategies."

Also, "immature tit"? Is that some flaming Neo I smell?

"Shifting the goal posts," honestly, Ryu, when are you going to accuse me of something I've actually been DOING?

Fuck you guys. I type some TL;DR essay on why the Espers are relatively useless, proving that I OBVIOUSLY have some experience with them, & the best you can come up with is, "Read this link?"

You have no right to get high-&-mighty with me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

These are not mutually exclusive. In fact, it's pretty obvious. "Back up your assertion that I'm not 'strategic' with proof that you are in any position to make this claim, IE your own God damn strategies."

I already fucking did. Strategy posted for using Zodiark. Explanation as to why he's better and capable of holding his own and buffing himself. Strategy in how to use him in a fight effectively given. No FAQ references. Stfu.

Also, "immature tit"? Is that some flaming Neo I smell?

You must be smelling your own upper lip cause I told you to stop acting like one, not that you are one.

"Shifting the goal posts," honestly, Ryu, when are you going to accuse me of something I've actually been DOING?

You just completely changed the fucking rules and what you wanted to prove the Espers as not completely and totally useless.

Fuck you guys. I type some TL;DR essay on why the Espers are relatively useless, proving that I OBVIOUSLY have some experience with them, & the best you can come up with is, "Read this link?"

You have no right to get high-&-mighty with me.

Keep crying Nancy. It definitely wins hearts and minds to your points and makes you a likable poster here. Seriously. I didn't tell you to read the FAQ. When you said you didn't want a FAQ referenced the explanation and strategy was given to you and now you can't back down from your generalization. Fail.

 

[Max Payne]

Hah high and mighty.

What was it he said? Pot, kettle?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I suppose, to play Devil's Advocate, Zodiark would be the exception to the rule.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I suppose, to play Devil's Advocate, Zodiark would be the exception to the rule.

Oh don't give me that. If you're gonna say all Esper's suck, and then I give you an example of one that doesn't suck, then your generalization was wrong. Period. What the fuck more do you want?

I'd also say Ultima doesn't suck either, given the fact she has shit loads of HP and also buffs herself with haste, shell, protect, libra, and even reflect. She has the highest HP of all the Espers, and her attack and defense is equal to Zodiark. The reflect can be problematic though if you try to buff her or something. Her special ability Redemption is extremely powerful for a special Esper skill. The only draw back is that both you and her have to be critical for her to do her special move. If you can pull it off, Eschaton is right up there with Zodiark's Final Eclipse as one of the strongest attacks of the game. She can tank and back you up really well in a fight where the enemy is weak to Holy, as she possesses higher Magic Attack than any normal party member, and her Holy attack Redemption is stronger than any other spell.

Zodiark, and Ultima are definitely two of the best in the game. And Ultima won't die easily either or require much buffing if you don't summon her when a boss or Mark has gone critical and unlocked their latent abilities that increase their crit rate and number of attacks. Again, use her at the start of a battle when the pacing is slow and let her dig into the HP of an enemy and soften them up for you.

Cuchulainn is another good Esper as he too has a shit ton of HP and is capable of tanking extremely well thanks to him having Curaja, which can cure you AND him. Furthermore, his attacks which inflict status are very useful at handicapping the enemy for you. He keeps himself at max HP a lot so getting his special attack off is a cake walk. And he's buffed with Protect, Shell, and Haste. With a pinch of Bravery as well.

One thing I'd always recommend doing from personal experience is casting Bubble on every Esper you summon. That helps extremely.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Oh don't give me that. If you're gonna say all Esper's suck, and then I give you an example of one that doesn't suck, then your generalization was wrong. Period. What the fuck more do you want?

It depends on how literal you want to get.

I know what you're trying to say, but I don't approach casual conversations like a thesis or a something to pick logical fallacies and whatnot. If someone says something general like 'this group of things suck', I'm not going to expect them to extend that EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY OF X THING. I know what they mean and what point they're trying to get across.

I give room to assume that they most likely mean damn near all of them, most of them, etc. Sure, if someone says that a basket full of 100 apples are green, and says, 'these apples are green', and I see 1 one of those apples are red, I'm not going to dance around him, pointing at him and laughing at him because he was TECHNICALLY wrong. Now, if he said that ALL Espers suck, yeah, he's wrong, but if he said the statement; 'Espers suck', well...

Case in point; in Xenosaga, AGWS's are generally considered to suck. I'll say it; AGWS's (the things your characters can ride in) suck. Besides their minor usefulness at the very beginning of the game, they're not cost efficient at all, and they have a very low ceiling of power compared to the characters themselves, who can level up and get techniques and whatnot. There is maybe ONE AGWS that is actually pretty useful, but you can only get it at the end of the game after a very long, pain the ass sidequest. So sure, I guess that mean TECHNICALLY, LITERALLY, AGWS's don't suck, but when you factor in the ONE that doesn't suck at the END OF THE GAME with the DOZENS that suck ass THROUGHOUT THE GAME, yeah, as a whole, they're functionally rather useless.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It depends on how literal you want to get.

I know what you're trying to say, but I don't approach casual conversations like a thesis or a something to pick logical fallacies and whatnot. If someone says something general like 'this group of things suck', I'm not going to expect them to extend that EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY OF X THING. I know what they mean and what point they're trying to get across.

Maybe you didn't read his posts here, because that's exactly what did NOT happen. He was making a detailed criticism and challenging people to refute it, which I did. So you pointing out that example is completely irrelevant and not applicable to this discussion.

I give room to assume that they most likely mean damn near all of them, most of them, etc. Sure, if someone says that 100 apples in a group are green and I see 1 one of those apples are red, I'm not going to dance around him, pointing at him and laughing at him because he was TECHNICALLY wrong. Now, if he said that ALL Espers suck, yeah, he's wrong, but if he said the statement; 'Espers suck', well...

Umm.. you gotta read what the guy was saying here first please. You're missing the entire point of contention here.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

whoops

 

[Madame Mayor]

One thing I'd always recommend doing from personal experience is casting Bubble on every Esper you summon. That helps extremely.

Bubble is amazing. When my bf was having a bit of trouble with the final boss, I took his save file and went and got him those accessories that cast bubble and though it didn't make the boss easy, his next try he won.

I didn't play around with espers very much my first play through, but I never thought about casting bubble on them. I'll have to try that.

 

[Masamune]

Espers are also pretty handy because you can Syphon their MP to no detriment in battle.

As Balthea (I think?) said earlier: That guide is fan work. They devised strategies/pros/cons for the Espers based on trial and error. Any serious player could learn half of that if they invested their time into that particular facet of the game. If you aren't willing to get to grips with the Espers and adjudge their strengths and weaknesses, you can't really complain that they're useless. In previous FFs, the Summons have been a crucial part of the battle system and storyline. This isn't the case with FFXII. They're another string to the bow if you want them, but they aren't really that integral to the game at large.

Oh, Zalera is sometimes good for getting you out of a jam, as he can kill enemies with one hit. The only drawback is it isn't foolproof, and you gain no Exp or Loot - but that's only a bonus when your priority is survival.