Jenova Cells Can't be "Erased"

[Neo Bahamut]

He who laughs last may laugh loudest, but he also didn't get the joke.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm sticking with the canon, & the canon says Jenova Cells don't work that way.

Where does it say this?

 

[Max Payne]

Is this the fabled cherry picking?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Thanked by: Ted Lange As Your Bartender (1 Hour Ago)

Are you serious? Why would you even bother asking me a question if you've already come to the conclusion that I'm "cherry picking"?


I have no desire to entertain smartass quips. Continue patting yourselves on the back. You'll still be wrong. I can't pick around shit that isn't there.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I dunno. It was funny. Now seriously,

Where does it say this?

 

[Max Payne]

Too much to ask to drop the holier than thou stuff and enjoy a joke I guess.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I dunno. It was funny. Now seriously,

Fair enough. I don't share your sense of humor, but perhaps I did read too much into that.

Jenova cells have never been something you could just "wash off." If they were, the plot would make no damn sense.

Personally, I'm losing interest in this argument. It's been 7 8 pages. The best evidence I've been offered so far is a visual effect & circumstantial information about Deepground.

The Deepground information is interesting, but it's a far cry from "proving" that Cloud no longer has Jenova cells, let alone that he's Super Saiyan 7.

I have 4 TL;DR paragraphs at the beginning of this topic. The way I figure it, there's a certain point where I have to let the logic & the obvious fact that this Super Saiyan 7 conclusion is pulled straight out of someone's ass stand for itself.

Too much to ask to drop the holier than thou stuff and enjoy a joke I guess.

If you had any sense of wit, you might actually be funny, & therefore I might be able to tell when you're joking. No such luck, I'm afraid.

 

[Max Payne]

If you had any sense of wit, you might actually be funny, & therefore I might be able to tell when you're joking. No such luck, I'm afraid.

Wow, you love talking down to people. That's amusing in itself I guess.

 

[ForceStealer]

The best evidence I've been offered so far is a visual effect & circumstantial information about Deepground.

Have you offered any evidence as to why they can't be apart from the fact that it hasn't happened before?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Have you offered any evidence as to why they can't be apart from the fact that it hasn't happened before?

See, that's what you're not getting. We don't have equal hypotheses. I know that you probably disagree, but acquiring Jenova cells have been an infusion that is deeply rooted in the genetic code since Day 1. It was like that in VII. It was like that in Crisis Core. It will likely continue to be that way. It's a plot point that does not need defending against such flimsy evidence.

However, the answer is yes. For the umpteenth time: If it hasn't happened before, it CAN'T happen. Aerith gets her powers from sources that heve been around for ages. If they couldn't do it, she can't either.

Now, the Cetra did manage to weaken Jenova, which is exactly what Aerith did.

Ergo, there is no need to drastically change the plotline by erasing Jenova cells with magic water.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

NB: I'd forgotten Nero's comment on the ship, so, yeah, he sacrificed those guys too. In any case, point still stands: He was even able to make physical contact with Weiss without it being a problem. Nero simply transporting someone shouldn't have made them unusable.

As for your argument about the JENOVA cells that it hasn't happened before, so it can't now -- again, whether the cells are outright destroyed or Sephiroth's will in them merely neutralized, this is a new development.

For fuck's sake, both BC and DC introduced ideas about WEAPONs that were new. New shit can happen. That is canon.

Your argument is shit.

 

[ForceStealer]

How many things have happened in the Compilation, or indeed, almost every fantasy story ever, that have never happened before? Lifestream never came out of the Planet to defend itself before, if the Lifestream was able to do that, why didn't it stop the asteroid Jenova rode in on 2000 years ago?

And as Tres says, even if it was cutting off the cells from Sephiroth's will, THAT would be a new ability that didn't exist before!

 

[Ryushikaze]

So all progress is a lie. Omnislash V5 and 6 don't exist.

Nero doesn't exist. His power over quasivoid is a new development.

'It didn't happen before ergo it can't happen' is utter and absolute shit.

FF5. What did the last batch of heroes do? Seal exy. What did the current batch do, DESTROY.
The idea that the planet finally figures out how to kibosh Jenova once and for all in a time of literal crisis to itself and when it has a gloriously large sampling size is really no surprise.

Jenova cells are not immutable. Never have been. Their degradation is a plot point in CC, you destroy them in FF7.
What's different? The planet has now figured out specific Jenovacide.
It's like the movie Evolution- Selenium is harmless to us, but lethal to the aliens. Same basic idea here.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

That Straw Man is so huge it puts Burning Man to shame.

'Cept I think Burning Man is made of wicker, but whatever.

By the way, Exdeath was destroyed when he lost control of the Void. The fact that Exdeath was basically indestructible was a core component of the plot that was not conveniently overturned at the end. It reflects exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

By the way, Exdeath was destroyed when he lost control of the Void. The fact that Exdeath was basically indestructible was a core component of the plot that was not conveniently overturned at the end.

He was eaten by it, sure, but it seems a stretch to say he was destroyed, as he returns, merged with the Void -- and then gets destroyed (dead, with no comebacks).

It reflects exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.

In fairness, Ryu, Force and myself all mentioned several other examples aside from just Exdeath that speak to exactly what we are talking about.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

All of which have absolutely nothing to do with my argument, but I'm quite sick of spelling it out. Suffice it to say that if the Lifestream can create Weapons, it can pool up around Jenova & dissolve it.

Unless it can't, which seems to be the message we'rre getting.

 

[Edley]

You guys wanna fight about it?

If Jenova was one alien and she did this kind of number on the planet, imagine if another member of her race were to pay a visit? Or an invading force ... Now that could be an interesting compilation title.

Planet: I've finally erased my Jenova cells! Party!

::Asteroid with Bob the Alien crash lands::

Bob the Alien: Anybody see my wife? She went to take the trash out like 2,000 years ago.

:: Planet points to Aerith::

Planet: Shedidit.

Aerith: Fuck.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Not that I'm in a hurry to revive this topic, but I've read Case of Shinra & there is nothing in there about AVALANCH evacuating people from Edge.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Uh, because CoS takes place before Edge is properly made, much less Dirge of Cerberus, when Edge IS evacuated save 500 people.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Yeah, I know. So why did someone tell me to read Case of Shinra to find that information?

My mistake, it was just stated without any sort of explanation given.

That said, I forgot something: I could conceivably see Great Gospel expelling Jenova cells from Geostigma victims, but not from SOLDIER/Cloud. Case of Shinra hinted that Geostigma was a localized infection, as opposed to the infusion that SOLDIER gets.

However, I'm not saying that is automatically true. In particular regards to the vaporization effect, it happens to the Remnants, who have no Jenova cells.

 

[Edley]

The lines are so blurred between where Jenova stops and Sephiroth starts. I always kind of thought the remnants were Sephiroth's verision of the S-Clones. Whether that means they necessarily had Jenova cells or just jenova like properties, I'm not sure.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The Remnants are basically materialized lifestream. Anything they share in common with Sephiroth comes from the manifestation of his will. They outright state that they do not have Jenova cells, which is proven by the fact that Kadaj needed an external source of cells in order to transform into Sephiroth.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

NB's right that the shinentai lacked JENOVA cells -- but they do have Sephiroth's will within them. Heck, it's right there in what they're called (思念体 shinentai: "thought bodies").

Aerith's rain is quite obviously a JENOVA-Be-Gone spray, and, as Edley/Dudley mentioned, the line between where Seph starts and JENOVA starts is blurred to the point of being a non-issue. Even Ultimania entries seem to regard them almost interchangeably.

The difference between Seph's will and the physical substance that is JENOVA's cells seems to be negligible as far as the effects of the rain are concerned. It dissolves the shinentai the same as it does the physical substance on the skin -- and presumably below -- of those with geostigma.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

It dissolves the shinentai the same as it does the physical substance on the skin -- and presumably below -- of those with geostigma.

Which was the point. If the Remnants vaporize & the Remnants don't have Jenova cells, then the argument that the vaporization must mean that Jenova cells are being destroyed is totally invalid. You could just as easily say that the vaporization is the visual effect of the cells being separated from Sephiroth's will. Or, as I've been going on, it's simply the diseased tissue. I don't think that Great Gospel is "quite obviously" anything except for a magic rain with extraordinary healing powers--extending, it seems, even to Jenova-based illnesses, such as Geostigma.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's the thing, though -- geostigma is a side-effect of an infection, not the problem itself. The same as aches might by a symptom of food poisoning, or excessive mucus production and discharge the symptoms of a cold.

The infection (a product of JENOVA cells plus the presence of Sephiroth's will within them) would need to be dealt with. "Curing" the symptom wouldn't remove the illness.

If the Remnants vaporize & the Remnants don't have Jenova cells, then the argument that the vaporization must mean that Jenova cells are being destroyed is totally invalid.

Not if one's assuming the rain simply attacks anything related to Sephiroth/JENOVA.

You could just as easily say that the vaporization is the visual effect of the cells being separated from Sephiroth's will.

Organic matter is shown being destroyed. One can't make the argument that the rain simply neutralizes Sephiroth's will rather than destroying JENOVA's organic material while arguing that the visual presentation of such an occurrence is the destruction of organic material -- just not JENOVA's.

Or, as I've been going on, it's simply the diseased tissue.

Which is still physical, organic and gets vaporized.