Jenova Cells Can't be "Erased"

[Ryushikaze]

Incidentally, I'm not entirely sure the rain did destroy the remnants, given the complete lack of effect it hand on Kadaj, who did not fizzle in the slightest before fading, despite being hit directly by the same rain that affected everyone else. We only see the other two remnants reappear and begin to fizzle after that vanishing act.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Kadaj didn't fizzle before fading, but he definitely faded. That's what I'd attribute to the rain.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The infection (a product of JENOVA cells plus the presence of Sephiroth's will within them) would need to be dealt with. "Curing" the symptom wouldn't remove the illness.

Geostigma is both the symptom & the illness. SOLDIERs during Crisis Core, for example, had Jenova cells but not Geostigma.

Not if one's assuming the rain simply attacks anything related to Sephiroth/JENOVA.

This contradicts the earlier assertion that the vaporization effect indicates that Jenova cells are being vaporized.

One can't make the argument that the rain simply neutralizes Sephiroth's will rather than destroying JENOVA's organic material while arguing that the visual presentation of such an occurrence is the destruction of organic material

Yes, you can. That's the entire point. Attributing greater meaning to the vaporization effect--which is just a visual effect--in order to make a point just doesn't work. You can't say what it means beyond the curing of Geostigma or the cleansing of the Remnants.

You can be of the opinion that it destroys anything related to Jenova/Sephiroth, absolutely. The problem comes in claiming that it's established canon, & because of that, Cloud no longer has Jenova cells. As we see, once this decision to declare inference fact is made, it just keeps running. We get that it's "obvious" that Cloud has "spirit energy that makes him stronger than SOLDIER." Who knows where you could take it from there, even?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I saw the deaths of the SHM differently than you guys. I didn't think the rain was dissolving them at all. Kadaj was dying because, although he'd been shape-shifted into/possessed by Sephiroth, it was still his body that took the blows from Omnislash version 5/6. Yazoo and Loz were dying cause they got caught in a huge fuck-off explosion. Their dissolving into the Lifestram occurred as it did because they weren't human beings, they were "thought bodies" composed of spirit energy. Aerith convinced Kadaj to accept this dissolution (largely because he confused her with his 'mother' of course) so his went quickly and painlessly. Yazoo and Loz, on the other hand, were fighting death and dissolution for that one last big bang against Cloud, which is why they were dissolving bit by bit (and why it looked so painful). Or at least, that's how I always saw it. Seen from that perspective (which no one has any cause to do, of course, since this is pure speculation on my part) the dissolution of the SHM neither supports the idea that Great Gospel can destroy Jenova Cells, nor denies it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Geostigma is both the symptom & the illness. SOLDIERs during Crisis Core, for example, had Jenova cells but not Geostigma.

But, again, the other part of the infection (Sephiroth's will) wasn't present then.

This contradicts the earlier assertion that the vaporization effect indicates that Jenova cells are being vaporized.

Not in the slightest. Both JENOVA cells and Sephiroth's will are encompassed by "anything related to Sephiroth/JENOVA."

Yes, you can. That's the entire point. Attributing greater meaning to the vaporization effect--which is just a visual effect--in order to make a point just doesn't work. You can't say what it means beyond the curing of Geostigma or the cleansing of the Remnants.

You can say that it shows it's capable of destroying physical material and not just interfering with projected thoughts/willpower, as that's what it's shown doing.

To say otherwise would be akin to arguing that materia doesn't really produce lightning, flames, etc., and that it's just a visual effect to indicate damage is being done.

You can be of the opinion that it destroys anything related to Jenova/Sephiroth, absolutely. The problem comes in claiming that it's established canon, & because of that, Cloud no longer has Jenova cells.

It's obvious in the same way that Squall's parentage is obvious (though that was finally stated outright in the 20th Anniversary Ultimanias), if you ask me. Simply reconciling all the factors involved with the cure (that vaporization occurs, the wholesale kidnapping of people in Edge rather than the cherry picking in Kalm and Junon, that Sephiroth declares Cloud's geostigma gone even while exerting his will more strongly than before, etc.) points to it as more likely than Sephiroth's will within the cells being temporarily neutralized.

Heck, in Cloud's case, if the alien cells were supposedly bonded to his very genetic code at this point, then it makes little sense for the excreted material to be localized the way it is on the regular infected people like Rufus, Moogle Girl and Denzel.

One would expect it to be coming out all over his body, and probably a lot messier.

I saw the deaths of the SHM differently than you guys. I didn't think the rain was dissolving them at all. Kadaj was dying because, although he'd been shape-shifted into/possessed by Sephiroth, it was still his body that took the blows from Omnislash version 5/6. Yazoo and Loz were dying cause they got caught in a huge fuck-off explosion. Their dissolving into the Lifestram occurred as it did because they weren't human beings, they were "thought bodies" composed of spirit energy. Aerith convinced Kadaj to accept this dissolution (largely because he confused her with his 'mother' of course) so his went quickly and painlessly. Yazoo and Loz, on the other hand, were fighting death and dissolution for that one last big bang against Cloud, which is why they were dissolving bit by bit (and why it looked so painful). Or at least, that's how I always saw it. Seen from that perspective (which no one has any cause to do, of course, since this is pure speculation on my part) the dissolution of the SHM neither supports the idea that Great Gospel can destroy Jenova Cells, nor denies it.

I attribute their deaths to the rain myself. As you said, these guys were made of spirit energy. Beating the shit out of them shouldn't kill them any more than it does an unsent, right?

At the least, Loz laying on his motorcycle while it exploded in his face didn't seem to harm him, so I don't see why Rude's fireworks should have been any more likely to.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Yeah, the Turks were right there, & they didn't die. As well, Kadaj is hurt by the rain in the church.

One would expect it to be coming out all over his body, and probably a lot messier.

So you're saying that it's unlikely Cloud was purged of Jenova cells afterall?

To say otherwise would be akin to arguing that materia doesn't really produce lightning, flames, etc., and that it's just a visual effect to indicate damage is being done.

Except not, because we're outright told how materia works.

Not in the slightest. Both JENOVA cells and Sephiroth's will are encompassed by "anything related to Sephiroth/JENOVA."

It's a simple hypothetical syllogism. If the black vapor indicates Jenova cells being destroyed, then only things with Jenova cells will undergo it. Remnants don't have Jenova cells. Remnants do it, too. Argument invalid.

If we open ourselves up to the possibility that black vapor doesn't necessarily mean that Jenova cells are present, we may have to open ourselves to the fact that that black vapor could be pretty much anything. Willpower, tissue, in fact, maybe it's not even vapor. Maybe it just breaks the cohesion between the cells & the victim.

The point is very simple: With so many possible mechanisms, locking oneself into a single conclusion is erroneous. Therefore, any conclusion derived from that is also eroneous. Just a chain of logical leaps with no real basis but "makes sense to me."

But, again, the other part of the infection (Sephiroth's will) wasn't present then.

Yeah. So, clearly, you don't have to get rid of Jenova cells to get rid of Geostigma. They are 2 separate--but related--things. It's like saying you can't be a mammal if you aren't a primate.

On a tangent, "Your Geostigma is gone," means "Your Geostigma is gone." If I tell you, "Your flu is gone," I don't mean you'll never have a flu again in your life &, in fact, are immune to all microbial illnesses. I mean you don't have the flu anymore!

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Kadaj did seem to find the water in the church unpleasant, true, but I saw no signs of injury on him at that time. No smoke rising from him, no burns, nothing. He just kinda gritted his teeth and waved his arm like he was swatting bugs. I figured it was more presence of a will other than Jenova/Sephiroth's that made him react that way than any real harm coming to him. As for why the explosion did damage to Kadaj and Loz when the motorcycle explosion didn't, well it was much bigger. I have no way of knowing how Reno and Rude came out of that unscathed, though, so that could hurt my argument. As for the arguments that the spirit-energy based SHM wouldn't die from physical injury, but would be killed by Great Gospel, I ask you this. Why would the Remnants defend themselves from attacks if attacks can't hurt them? Why does Kadaj collapse after his body, morphed into Sephy, gets hit with a powerful attack? If they can't be harmed by physical attacks, why not just let Cloud land a good blow, and then ruin his shit while he thinks he won, rather than go through the trouble of having an actual battle? Also, how would magic that has only ever been seen to heal kill anything? Especially if the other two Remnants still entirely lack Jenova Cells, why would the healing limit dissolve them?

On another note, a thought occurred to me as I typed this: in DoC, Grimoire Valentine is shown dispersing in a very similar manner (that is, looking like pyre-flies and floating off) upon his death. How do we reconcile that with the very similar deaths of the Remnants? There was no rain, no Jenova cells, and Grimoire is presumably a real/normal person: nothing in the equation is the same. Is it just a side effect of being killed by Chaos/Stagnant Lifestream, or does it relate in some way I'm not seeing?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Kadaj did seem to find the water in the church unpleasant, true, but I saw no signs of injury on him at that time. No smoke rising from him, no burns, nothing. He just kinda gritted his teeth and waved his arm like he was swatting bugs.

True, but he also wasn't exposed to it for very long.

I have no way of knowing how Reno and Rude came out of that unscathed, though, so that could hurt my argument.

Well, the writers may not have taken this into account, but fireworks, while still pretty dangerous, are more bling than boom. Then again, maybe they did. Rude DOES say that, "If nothing else, it'll be flashy." Perhaps the bomb was meant more as a diversion? Really, I don't know.

As for the arguments that the spirit-energy based SHM wouldn't die from physical injury, but would be killed by Great Gospel, I ask you this.

I've never heard that argument, but you can quote me as saying that it's dumb as Hell.

Also, how would magic that has only ever been seen to heal kill anything? Especially if the other two Remnants still entirely lack Jenova Cells, why would the healing limit dissolve them?

The Remnants fit the textbook definition of undead. If Cloud had a Phoenix Down, the movie probably would have been much shorter. But even if they weren't technically undead, a substance designed to expunge the symptoms of Geostigma would hurt anything made of Negative Lifestream, like the Remnants.

On another note, a thought occurred to me as I typed this: in DoC, Grimoire Valentine is shown dispersing in a very similar manner (that is, looking like pyre-flies and floating off) upon his death.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Sometimes deaths in FFVII are shown that way, but from other incidents, we know that they die normally, so those cases are probably artistic liscence. If not, it could be just that it was a particular effect of the WAY Grimoire died, IE blasted with dark mako. Then again, he was involved with Deepground, so there is a SLIM chance that there was something about him that would make him die like that. Personally, I don't think that's likely, especially given that Lucretia doesn't really stop & go "WTF is going on here?"

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Considering how badly it fucked with Cloud's steering from quite a ways off, and the visual depiction of the shockwave we saw before the fireworks themselves began, I'd say it was a pretty damned big boom. I'd say the Turk's survival is probably due to the writers just wanting them to survive, thus they did. I still attribute the deaths of the SHM to injuries sustained by Cloud's sword and big ass 'splosions, respectively, but we can agree to disagree on that one. The consensus view seems to be the rain killing them, and if we define them as undead then by FF rules Great Gospel would be instant "death" to them.

On the subject of Grimoire, its entirely possible it was just artistic license, it could be the contact with dark mako, and either way it no longer seems relevant. Has anyone aside from Grimoire and the Remnants been shown to die in that fashion though?

Anyway, a lot of my comments in here have been wildly off topic, so until I have something more on topic, I'll just lurk in here a bit

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So you're saying that it's unlikely Cloud was purged of Jenova cells afterall?

No, I was responding to your belief that the cells were bonded to Cloud at a genetic level. I'm saying if that were the case, one would expect something different than what one sees in the other infected.

Except not, because we're outright told how materia works.

Okay, then something along the same lines: AVALANCHE aren't really as acrobatic as they seem in AC/C. That's just a visual effect to show off that they're badass.

That would obviously not be a legitimate argument because they're actually shown doing those things, and that's what I'm saying about the disappearance of the shit on the geostigma victims. Physical material is shown being destroyed.

It's a simple hypothetical syllogism. If the black vapor indicates Jenova cells being destroyed, then only things with Jenova cells will undergo it. Remnants don't have Jenova cells. Remnants do it, too. Argument invalid.

That's not the argument at work here. The claim being made is that organic/physical material is destroyed by Aerith's rain, and the argument for it is that we see physical material dissipate on Cloud, Moogle Girl, other kids and Rufus when the rain hits them.

From that simple observation, we have proof already that the rain does more than act on a telepathic level.

Syllogisms, by the way, can be used fallaciously. Deductive reasoning is not the only means to meaning, and its sole use is warned against by any academic institution worth its charter.

Deductive reasoning would tell you that if one man can dig a two-foot hole in 60 seconds, then 60 men could dig that hole in 1 second. That's not going to happen, though.

This is why we use inductive reasoning as well. Combining both approaches gives us conclusions like "Cloud's JENOVA cells were probably destroyed" on the basis that 1) his geostigma was gone at a time that Seph's will was at its peak, 2) the people who got rained on by the cure were taken indiscriminately unlike in other places, 3) the rain is shown unquestionably to destroy some physical material, and 4) as long as both Seph's will and the JENOVA cells were in play within someone before the end of AC/C, they should have geostigma.

Were it not for the presence of the second and third elements of the data, one could argue more easily that it's as likely the loss of Seph's will within the JENOVA cells as it is the loss of the cells themselves which freed Cloud. As it stands, the conclusion that the cells themselves are gone is more strongly indicated.

Obviously inductive reasoning is open to fallacies as well, but that's why one uses both deductive and inductive reasoning. With both, you're less likely to miss something.

The vapor, by the way, is green, and the argument was never that "this vapor only appears where there's JENOVA cells." The argument was always "physical material can be destroyed by the rain because we see physical material vaporized when the rain touches people."

Yeah. So, clearly, you don't have to get rid of Jenova cells to get rid of Geostigma.

You do have to get rid of either Seph's will or the cells, though. That's what I've been saying all along.

On a tangent, "Your Geostigma is gone," means "Your Geostigma is gone." If I tell you, "Your flu is gone," I don't mean you'll never have a flu again in your life &, in fact, are immune to all microbial illnesses. I mean you don't have the flu anymore!

That's not a valid comparison at all. Seph was still projecting his will after Cloud was cured -- and more strongly than ever given how he called up the Negative Lifestream, which instantly put Denzel to grabbing his forehead and groaning in pain. Half of the cause of the illness was still there, and it was particularly fierce at that particular time.

What you're suggesting by the rain not removing Cloud's cells at a time that Seph's will is still around is not "You're cured of the flu," but "You took some medicine and won't feel the symptoms for a little while." Seph, however, says that the illness was gone.

As for the arguments that the spirit-energy based SHM wouldn't die from physical injury, but would be killed by Great Gospel, I ask you this. Why would the Remnants defend themselves from attacks if attacks can't hurt them? Why does Kadaj collapse after his body, morphed into Sephy, gets hit with a powerful attack? If they can't be harmed by physical attacks, why not just let Cloud land a good blow, and then ruin his shit while he thinks he won, rather than go through the trouble of having an actual battle?

Same argument applies to unsent. You can beat them up and temporarilty dissipate them without killing them.

Also, how would magic that has only ever been seen to heal kill anything? Especially if the other two Remnants still entirely lack Jenova Cells, why would the healing limit dissolve them?

Well, to begin with, that's assuming that it's identical to Aerith's original Great Gospel, and, second, that's overlooking that many things which heal one entity harm another.

For instance, if you take away an infection, you're killing either a virus or bacterium.

I was just looking at the script of the movie included with the North American Limited Edition release, by the way, and it seems to attribute the fizzling to the rain: "But Yazoo and Loz are badly injured, and in this rain, they seem ready to disappear at any instant."

On another note, a thought occurred to me as I typed this: in DoC, Grimoire Valentine is shown dispersing in a very similar manner (that is, looking like pyre-flies and floating off) upon his death. How do we reconcile that with the very similar deaths of the Remnants? There was no rain, no Jenova cells, and Grimoire is presumably a real/normal person: nothing in the equation is the same. Is it just a side effect of being killed by Chaos/Stagnant Lifestream, or does it relate in some way I'm not seeing?

I'd assume it had something to do with being killed by stagnant Lifestream since people generally don't do that when they die in FFVII. Maybe the SL was eating away at his actual body.

Has anyone aside from Grimoire and the Remnants been shown to die in that fashion though?

Hollander, Lazard and another Angeal copy (monster) in Crisis Core. As well, at least one Genesis copy had Lifestream pool off it, but it never was shown to entirely dissipate (though it probably did).

Obviously, two of these were Angeal copies and two were Genesis copies, so they had all been infused with mako -- and in the case of the first two, were degrading even while alive. The mako might explain the pyrefly dispersement at death, and the more unstable physical composition of the Genesis copies may explain why Hollander and the other Genesis copy began dispersing instantly, while the Angeal copies took several minutes.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I saw the deaths of the SHM differently than you guys. I didn't think the rain was dissolving them at all. Kadaj was dying because, although he'd been shape-shifted into/possessed by Sephiroth, it was still his body that took the blows from Omnislash version 5/6. Yazoo and Loz were dying cause they got caught in a huge fuck-off explosion. Their dissolving into the Lifestram occurred as it did because they weren't human beings, they were "thought bodies" composed of spirit energy. Aerith convinced Kadaj to accept this dissolution (largely because he confused her with his 'mother' of course) so his went quickly and painlessly. Yazoo and Loz, on the other hand, were fighting death and dissolution for that one last big bang against Cloud, which is why they were dissolving bit by bit (and why it looked so painful). Or at least, that's how I always saw it. Seen from that perspective (which no one has any cause to do, of course, since this is pure speculation on my part) the dissolution of the SHM neither supports the idea that Great Gospel can destroy Jenova Cells, nor denies it.

This is what I always thought myself.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Considering how badly it fucked with Cloud's steering from quite a ways off, and the visual depiction of the shockwave we saw before the fireworks themselves began, I'd say it was a pretty damned big boom.

That is true, although he may have just been startled. In any case, one would think that a great deal of energy would be lost to those--well, fireworks. Not the most effective weapon ever.

On the subject of Grimoire, its entirely possible it was just artistic license, it could be the contact with dark mako, and either way it no longer seems relevant. Has anyone aside from Grimoire and the Remnants been shown to die in that fashion though?

I could swear there was at least one more normal person it happened to, but I don't remember.

That's not a valid comparison at all.

Yes, it is. It's the exact same type of sentence. "X is gone" does not mean what you're saying it means. And you keep saying "Sephiroth was exerting his will," but guess what: He was doing that at the end of FFVII, too. You can defeat his will while still having Jenova cells.

Okay, then something along the same lines: AVALANCHE aren't really as acrobatic as they seem in AC/C. That's just a visual effect to show off that they're badass.

A better comparison would be the way monsters in the original FFVII turned red & faded away, which we know from other titles is not how they actually died.

Egads, visual effects don't always have deep, significant meanings? Say it ain't so!

No, I was responding to your belief that the cells were bonded to Cloud at a genetic level. I'm saying if that were the case, one would expect something different than what one sees in the other infected.

This is only true if either of the assertions you've made about how the cure works are correct. It is not true if Great Gospel just heals Geostigma. Cloud underwent a process virtually identical to what SOLDIER goes through. As of Case of Shinra, at the very latest, it has been confirmed that it is a genetic infusion. I should not have to argue this, & I am not going to. Discontinuity it if you want, that doesn't make it any less true.

The vapor, by the way, is green.

Ah, yes, the remnants dissolved black & Geostigma dissolved green. In fact, it wasn't vapor, it was mako. So...yeah.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Tres, the quote you gave from the script sounds to me like we might both be right. It does specifically mention that the Remnants are badly injured, so to me it sounds as if the bomb did them some mighty fine damage and the effects of the rain finished them off, causing them to disperse back into the Lifestream. I also appreciate the list of other deaths that occurred in that manner, considering that CoLSB shows us Sephiroth had already lashed out with the first wave of Geostigma before he created the SHM, it seems likely that they were composed of Tainted/Stagnant Mako themselves, which gives me a pseudo-link to Grimoire's death at least. I shall have to ponder on that awhile, but it makes as much sense as the Compilation can be expected to at the point.

On the topic at hand, I have to ask why would the destruction of Jenova's Cells in Cloud automatically equal a decrease in physical capability? J-cells have been shown to cause mutations of various kinds, and Cloud had them in his system for a number of years. Is it possible that their presence caused longterm effects that do not require their continued presence in his body for the benefits they originally caused to continue?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The entire idea of a Jenova cell "infusion" seems to indicate that it's not so much you have the cells floating around in your body, but a whole different school of microbiological bullshit.

The best comparison are loops of DNA found in bacteria, known as "plasmids." The bacteria can exchange these plasmids & alter each other's genetic structure.

So, when you're said to have "Jenova cells inside you," what you actually have is an altered genetic structure from being infused with the Jenova cells. And just in case anyone's thinking of dragging semantics into this, not only will I provide evidence, I also have to point something out: The Sephiroth "clones" were not clones.

Moving right along, this concept is basically confirmed in Crisis Core, when they try to use Zack's cells to halt the degredation & realize that it doesn't take long for the DNA of Jenova & the DNA of the subject to become intertwined at the most basic level. As well, when that doctor (I can't remember his name) in Case of Shinra examines Geostigma, he says the cells are similar to "the cells found in SOLDIER members."

It's an infusion on the genetic level.

This is why it's patently absurd to say that Jenova cells can be "erased" from a subject's body. Even if it were possible, it would be completely rearranging the genetic structure. It would result in an immediate loss of ability, especially since Word of God has it that SOLDIERs are so powerful BECAUSE they have Jenova's abilities to a certain extent.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, it is. It's the exact same type of sentence. "X is gone" does not mean what you're saying it means. And you keep saying "Sephiroth was exerting his will," but guess what: He was doing that at the end of FFVII, too. You can defeat his will while still having Jenova cells.

Seph wasn't exerting his will to create geostigma at the end of the original game. I wasn't saying his will can't be beaten by someone who possesses JENOVA cells -- what I'm saying is that as long as his will being exerted, the cells should be responding to it.

Whether Cloud can fight on through the pain of his geostigma is unrelated to whether the geostigma should still be there when Seph's broadcasting his will to the cells that allow him to cause it -- and more strongly than ever.

A better comparison would be the way monsters in the original FFVII turned red & faded away, which we know from other titles is not how they actually died.

That's not even comparing the same things I'm talking about. You're talking about something that required an interface with the player for gameplay purposes. We're talking about a movie that has no such concerns.

Unless given a reason to believe otherwise, anything visually presented to us within the film should be considered to have happened. This includes the acrobatics of the AVALANCHE members and the destruction of physical material on the surface of the skin of geostigma suffers.

It's not like this stuff was shown to us from an individual character's potentially flawed perspective, nor was it a walk through their hazy memory. We were watching through the magical, omnipotent window of film.

No, I was responding to your belief that the cells were bonded to Cloud at a genetic level. I'm saying if that were the case, one would expect something different than what one sees in the other infected.

This is only true if either of the assertions you've made about how the cure works are correct.

I'm not talking about the cure. I'm talking about the symptoms. Cloud has a localized excretion on the surface of his skin just like any of the other sufferers.

It is not true if Great Gospel just heals Geostigma. Cloud underwent a process virtually identical to what SOLDIER goes through. As of Case of Shinra, at the very latest, it has been confirmed that it is a genetic infusion. I should not have to argue this, & I am not going to. Discontinuity it if you want, that doesn't make it any less true.

All we've ever been told is that SOLDIERs get injected with the cells. How the cells actually reside within the body after that was never talked about.

Now I can definitely buy what you're saying about plasmids. That would, in fact, make a whole hell of a lot of sense, seeing as how Genesis's genes were mapped onto the Tsviets, yet Weiss was still not considered to have the taint of JENOVA and remained a suitable host for Omega.

It's quite believable that JENOVA's cells altered Gillian's DNA, which would have then determined Genesis's DNA, which would have then altered the Tsviets' DNA -- but without making them actually have JENOVA cells. This works to explain all that we see in Crisis Core with the Angeal and Genesis Copies as well.

Again, I can totally buy that, and that would actually explain why Cloud could lose his JENOVA cells without suffering any loss of ability. What I took issue with is what you said earlier:

I know that you probably disagree, but acquiring Jenova cells have been an infusion that is deeply rooted in the genetic code since Day 1.

Given that your opening premise for this thread was "it makes absolutely no sense that Cloud’s performance isn’t hindered even slightly by lacking Jenova cells," I took this quoted text to mean that you were saying the JENOVA cells themselves had physically bonded to Cloud's own -- basically, the same way they're a part of Sephiroth's.

However, if we were to simply say that Cloud's DNA has been altered by those cells exchanging information, then I would absolutely agree there are changes to Cloud on the genetic level.

But, again, I would emphasize that if this is what has occurred, there's no reason his performance should be affected by the loss of the JENOVA cells. They've already done their work, so removing them afterward should be no more problematic than [spoiler="Beast Wars" spoilers here, but it's a really good example]removing the Autobot Matrix from Optimus Primal was after he'd already transmutated into Optimal Optimus -- and likewise with removing the original Megatron's spark from BW's Megatron after he'd already become a Transmetal dragon[/spoiler].

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You guys got more into the technical aspects of the whole mess, but this is basically what I was saying. The cells themselves may not need to be present anymore for their effects to remain even after their removal. Whether you look into the details of plasmids (Argh, Bio-Shock flashbacks!) or liken it to the effects of certain retro-viruses, or if you go into good old fashioned fictional pseudo-science and make up something similar, its entirely possible that Jenova's cells have done their work enhancing Cloud. No one in Shinra seemed interested in finding a way to remove the cells from anyone, so up until Cloud's example we have nothing to work with. I find the concept amusing, picture Hojo zapping Zack with a Mako Gun designed to erase his Jenova cells, laughing... then getting his shit wrecked cause Zack was still just as strong.

For what its worth, looking over what has been said so far I am leaning towards the "no more Jenova cells" side of this debate. Neo Bahamut, even some of your own points kind of support that concept, such as those that tie into my first paragraph here.

 

[Lord Noctis]

You guys got more into the technical aspects of the whole mess, but this is basically what I was saying. The cells themselves may not need to be present anymore for their effects to remain even after their removal. Whether you look into the details of plasmids (Argh, Bio-Shock flashbacks!) or liken it to the effects of certain retro-viruses, or if you go into good old fashioned fictional pseudo-science and make up something similar, its entirely possible that Jenova's cells have done their work enhancing Cloud. No one in Shinra seemed interested in finding a way to remove the cells from anyone, so up until Cloud's example we have nothing to work with. I find the concept amusing, picture Hojo zapping Zack with a Mako Gun designed to erase his Jenova cells, laughing... then getting his shit wrecked cause Zack was still just as strong.

.

I believe I suggested something like this earlier in the debate. I agree that it makes the most sense.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Thanks to my game-nerd reaction to the word 'plasmid' I am now stuck with an image of a Big Daddy carrying the Buster Sword. Thanks a pantload for that.

But yeah, Noctis I think I do recall you making mention of a possibility like this (cba to look and make sure) and it does make the most sense overall imo.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Neo Bahamut, even some of your own points kind of support that concept

No, they don't. I cannot support something that is so wholly unsupported by anything in the plotline. Whether the host has whole Jenova cells or not, the fact still stands that Geostigma does not erase whatever the infusion does to the target, as I have elaborated on before & will elaborate on again.

what I'm saying is that as long as his will being exerted, the cells should be responding to it

.

"If Sephiroth is exerting his will & Cloud still has Jenova cells, then he should be able to take control of Cloud, because the cells should be responding to his will."

It's the exact same argument, & it is clearly wrong.

That's not even comparing the same things I'm talking about.

Yeah, that's the problem. You set up a tailored analogy that had little to no semblence to the actual point. All of your analogies thus far have failed, because they simply are irrelevent. I honestly don't care if this is what you were "talking about," this is a proper comparison. If one assumed that the designers were trying to convey important plot information with this visual effect, one would have been wrong. If one assumed that the glyph that appears when Kadaj summons Bahamut Sin had some deeper meaning than "I'm using a summon," one would be guessing.

Unless given a reason to believe otherwise, anything visually presented to us within the film should be considered to have happened.

I never said it didn't happen. I said that it doesn't indicate what you say it does. It's a trail of something exiting from a body. Attributing an exact meaning to that beyond "it's curing Geostigma" is a leap. As I said before, looking back, it appears to be mako. If that's the case, one could liken it to soap suds: Involved in the cleansing, but doesn't come from you at all.

I'm not talking about the cure. I'm talking about the symptoms. Cloud has a localized excretion on the surface of his skin just like any of the other sufferers.

That's...great?

But, again, I would emphasize that if this is what has occurred, there's no reason his performance should be affected by the loss of the JENOVA cells.

It's not that the Jenova cells exchange information & stay floating around in the bloodstream. It's that they become a permanent part of the organism's genetic code. Again, this is pretty flatly stated both in Crisis Core & Case of Shinra.

Let me put it this way:

When they say "injected with Jenova cells," they mean "had their genetic code infused with Jenova's." Granted, via injection & then the Jenova cells did the work themselves, but whatever. It can be likened to how "Sephiroth clone" really meant "someone who went through a certain procedure to see if Sephiroth's powers could be duplicated."

The reason Cloud would be weakened as a result of having his Jenova cells removed is, again, that the reason he's so strong to begin with is because he has "Jenova's powers to a lesser extent." The thing that gives him those abilities is the same thing that allows Sephiroth to manipulate him. It's a double-edged sword, the very nature of Jenova.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Dude, we're saying that, if J-cell infusion does indeed alter the subject at the cellular level, then the removal of those cells would not have any impact on the subject's performance. The cells have done their work, they've changed the subject. They will, indeed, have "Jenova's powers to a lesser extent" whether actual Jenova cells still exist in the subject's body or not.

I also disagree with the idea that Jenova cells, in a standard SOLDIER style infusion, directly bond with the genetic code of the subject being infused. That is what made Sephiroth so special, he was directly and irreversibly bonded with Jenova in utero. This is why it is semi-accurate to call Jenova his mother, Jenova's genetic code is just as much a part of him as Lucrecia's. In a way, he has two mothers. If this intertwining of genetic material occurred for everyone who receives the treatment, then one could presume that everyone in SOLDIER and the Reunion experiment would be on par with Sephiroth. And that just doesn't add up.

Thus, I see it as Jenova cells having a long lasting effect on anyone they are injected into (and let us not foget the Mako, which also has its place in the process) but their continued presence in the body is not a requirement for those benefits once the alterations are complete.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Dude, we're saying that, if J-cell infusion does indeed alter the subject at the cellular level, then the removal of those cells would not have any impact on the subject's performance.

Again, you would not have cells floating in the bloodstream after the infusion was completed. That's why you can't remove them without undoing the subject's abilities. Moreover, the whole idea is pretty pointless. As I said, Jenova cell infusion is a double-edged sword: With the powers of enhanced physical & magical ability come the ability to be affected by the Reunion. As far as we have seen, you can't pick & choose.

I also disagree with the idea that Jenova cells, in a standard SOLDIER style infusion, directly bond with the genetic code of the subject being infused.

You can feel free to do that, but I don't consider it compelling counter-evidence.

That is what made Sephiroth so special, he was directly and permaneantly bonded with Jenova in utero. If this happened for everyone who receives the treatment, then one could presume that everyone would be on par with Sephiroth. And that just doesn't add up.

Another Word of God: Jenova's abilities pass on more strongly depending on the target's exposure. As Sephiroth had them pumping around his system while he was a fetus, he has the most proficient inheritance of Jenova's genes.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

If ya don't wanna be a bitch, then don't be It's not so hard. I read your post, I saw you say there would be no free-floating J-cells left in a person's body after infusion and so on. I do not, however, see what you are backing that up with. We are frequently reminded that there are in fact Jenova cells in the bodies of those who are infused with them. This is why Sephiroth/Jenova killed the "clones" when they show up in the Whirlwind Maze, to get the cells back for the Reunion. If those cells are inextricably intertwined with the cells of the host, then how does that work exactly? Do the cells separate and become free-floating again in order to rejoin Jenova? Or, more likely, were they still separate in the first place?

Also, nice of you to respond to my disagreement and my reasoning behind it separately, with a statement that my mere failure to agree is not compelling evidence as if I had said nothing to support it. Nice debate technique there. As for your follow up, yes Jenova's abilities do pass on differently depeding on a number of different factors. When were you infused, how long, etc. As was pointed out above, this is probably why Genesis didn't have actual Jenova cells, and his genetics being infused into the Tsviets did not contaminate Weiss as a host for Omega. His mother was infused, the cells altered her genetic structure, and thus his own genetics were altered without him having to be a host for Jenova's cells at all. On another note, Hojo's use of Jenova cells on himself causes him to hideously mutate into a series of monsters, with seemingly no relation to other subjects we've seen who received injections.

So yes, various factors can indeed change the results upon the target. But, it seems to me that Sephiroth's main difference in exposure is the fact that Jenova's genetics directly influenced him while he was still a developing fetus, thus causing him to be a human-Jenova hyrbrid, whereas other members of SOLDIER have their genetic structure altered by the cells in their system, but do not in fact bond with them to become hybridized lifeforms.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

If ya don't wanna be a bitch, then don't be It's not so hard.

I don't, that's why I edited that part out. Upon further reflection, it seemed unnecessary to say.

I do not, however, see what you are backing that up with.

Hollander says it of Zack. The doctor in Crisis Core says that "some of the cells of Geostigma victims are similar to the cells found in SOLDIER candidates."

This is why Sephiroth/Jenova killed the "clones" when they show up in the Whirlwind Maze, to get the cells back for the Reunion.

Also to provide life energy. As to this, I couldn't really tell you. He appears to just murder them.

His mother was infused, the cells altered her genetic structure, and thus his own genetics were altered without him having to be a host for Jenova's cells at all.

I never got that impression at all. CC uses the term "gene mapping," which seems to refer to manipulation of the genes themselves, rather than yet another Jenova cell infusion. It also says it was done to Genesis, not on his mother.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm assuming you meant CoS, with regards to the doctor commenting on Geostigma victims, since Geostigma didn't exist at the time of CC. As for that, I would assume that Geostigma victims would indeed bear some similarities to members of SOLDIER, as Jenova cells are a precondition of having that disease. Similar to but not identical, as they acquired these cells in different ways and in different amounts than actual members of SOLDIER do. Can I get a direct quote of what the doctor says about Zack? I do not recall it myself, and don't wish to comment without better knowledge of such.

On the subject of Geostigma, it occurs to me that Vincent describes it as the body overcompensating in attempts to rid itself of an evil substance. If Jenova cells do in fact bond with the host at the cellular level, would the body continue to recognize them as a foreign substance and fight them? It seems like in at least some circumstances the body would recognize the fused cellular material as a part of itself and knock that shit off, thus preventing/curing Geostigma in that individual.

Where was it said that the clones were killed to supply life energy? They were in the Whirlwind Maze, which is inside the Crater, which is overflowing with massive amounts of Mako gathered to heal the wound Jenova made on impact. I always took it that the location's vast reserves of energy are what permitted Sephiroth to use the Black Materia. Not sure what sending the energy of those clones back to the Lifestream would accomplish really. I thought they were killed to allow Jenova to reclaim her cells from them, which is how we go from earlier Jenova forms like Birth-Death which are almost identical in size and appearance to Jenova-Synthesis, which was the more complete beast.

On the subject of Genesis, I could possibly have mixed him up with Angeal or something. If so, my apologies.

 

[Dashell]

Here's a question

What if... Yazoo had an umbrella... yeah... think about that...