Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge's Roles in the Remake Thread

[ForceStealer]

So how do you explain that knows Biggs' name if he never let him tell him though? And so now we have to assume he didn't care enough to hear Biggs say her name, which is something we see happen, BUT assume that he met them before the mission, which not something that's even implied.

I don't think he ever says Biggs either. I think Wedge is the only name he ever says. Per the script, he definitely doesn't say Jessie on the train.

 

[Jairus]

I don't know. That, like with Wedge's name, is an inconsistency in the story. My only guess is that he finally managed to tell him at some point off-screen, maybe after escaping the reactor but before leaving the tunnel. That could work for Wedge, too, I suppose. If Cloud hadn't already known it from meeting them prior to the mission.

You forget, they had to leave from the slums together to get to the reactor in the first place. Which means they had to have met him at least at some point before we ever see any of them.

 

[Kai Schulen]

I've always assumed that Tifa told Cloud their names and that's how he knows them. He just says "I'm not interested in your names" to keep up his badass facade.

 

[JBedford]

And as I said, the original translation of Cloud's line "I don't care what your names are," was "I don't care what your name is." That implies the statement was directed solely at Biggs and was mistranslated to include all of them.

Just leaving this here

 

[Jairus]

Alright, I wasn't aware of that. But why would Cloud reply in plural to a single person?

 

[Odysseus]

Okay thinking about it a bit more, Biggs already knows Cloud is an Ex-SOLDIER at the start of the game, so they must have had some kind of introduction to Cloud. Maybe Barret told them (or maybe just Biggs, since Jessie didn't know) that he hired a former SOLDIER member.

 

[Jairus]

That's partly what I was thinking, yeah. Maybe he told Biggs but Jessie either didn't hear or wasn't there when he did. I think some of that dialogue was more for player convenience to tell him or her who this guy is rather than being narratively sound, because there's no way they all just magically appeared on the train without even seeing each other beforehand.

 

[Odysseus]

Yeah. The remake is still using pretty much that same dialogue, assuming things haven't changed since the 2015 trailer, but for writing a story that takes place before the bombing mission I was just going to kinda skirt around that plot point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then why is it listed under 10/5 as though it did? There's no indication that it happened on a day other than that, no divider to indicate the date isn't known. And only Biggs tried to introduce himself - the others never did. Yet Cloud still somehow knows their names. That's only possible if they had already met previously off-screen before the first mission. Also, Jessie's question could just as easily be seen to mean that she had met him already but hadn't known he was in SOLDIER until that moment.

It's not listed under 10/5.

It comes after 10/5. There's a difference. Only one event is listed as having taken place on 10/5.

Interpreting it as having happened on the same date is erroneous. The timeline only gives specific events specific dates. The rest happen approximately before or after the corresponding date or event.

And as everyone has pointed out the translation of the original Japanese text, I don't think I need to comment any further about who was met before or after. The clear implication is "after."

 

[Jairus]

Then do you think they just spontaneously appeared on the train out of nowhere? They had to have met up in the slums to get on the train in the first place. Also, Cloud could have already known their names but decided to mess with them a bit because he was in jerk mode and didn't want to be there. His wording says that he doesn't care what they are, not that he doesn't know them.

And the timeline isn't clear because there's no indication that the images are meant to be dividers and that the events under them don't happen at the same time as the last listed date.

And you don't have to be condescending. That might not be your intention, but that's how it comes off to me. That's how your posts have always felt to me, even ones I've read that weren't addressed to me. Whenever you're debating like that, that's how it seems. Again, might not be your intention. That's just how it comes off to me.

And Ody, there are differences in the remake because Biggs already knows Cloud's name. He tells Jessie what it is.

 

[Kai Schulen]

We're overthinking and grasping at straws over how Cloud was introduced to the AVALANCHE trio and the only thing I have to say is this: Sometimes the best answer is the easiest answer.


Or something. Whatever. I know it doesn't wholly apply but it's in the spirit of "keep it short and sweet." Like in writing, movies, comics, etc you don't gotta show how everything happens unless there is something symbolic or there's a hidden secret in the scene or whatever.

is it absolutely vital to the plot figuring out how Cloud was introduced to AVALANCHE? Like how does figuring out how Cloud knows the names of AVALANCHE members prove that Cloud has romantic feelings for Jessie?

Alright, I wasn't aware of that. But why would Cloud reply in plural to a single person?

...The whole AVALANCHE trio was right in front of him. It's not much of a stretch to think that even though Cloud was looking at Biggs (who was talking to him the most) when he says that he doesn't care for their names, he was speaking loud enough for all 3 of them to hear him, so that they would get the clue to shut up and cut the small talk.

I'M GOING TO SLEEP. I can't believe this nonsense is what breaks the camel's back for me on this topic argh

 

[Sasseli]

So then he knows their names. How does that in any way tell anything about how well they knew each other before the mission? You learn names in one second. I never got the impression that they knew each other at all. It was always a first meeting to me and there is no indication that it was different. Plus it doesn’t change anything about the topic. Cloud simply never cared for Jessie beyond helping them out with the mission first and having a somewhat deeper relationship with all three of them at the end of all things.
Thinking about what actually were her last words towards Cloud, a love confession would probably lessen the impact of the moment. And it would disturb Cloud considerably, probably. It might somehow work, if they followed the narration of her regrets, that she regrets that so many people died because of them and that she never told him she liked him...

Nah, it would totally lessen the impact of the other statement.

I can’t imagine a situation where this would fit. It’s better if they made it along the lines of the OG. Leaving it unsaid. I think that even strengthens her feelings, because she is resolved enough to not make them a topic when other things are more important. I think that’s who Jessie is in the end.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

Been thinking hard about Jessie's role for a bit, but the only thing I can come up with is pancake.

 

[Odysseus]

u wanna fight m8?

 

[Philco]

Her role is mostly just Miss Exposition isn't it? That was the case in the original game, and I've not watched through any videos properly but I gather that's mostly her role in the demo so far as well.

That might be why I always used to imagine her as being quite a bit older. She was clearly very knowledgable so in my mind, she had to be older to know so much about the world. Or, something like that

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

u wanna fight m8?

 

[Odysseus]

 

[ForceStealer]

Just leaving this here

lolol. DLPB's "original creator's intent!!!!11" strikes again


Also, Barret very obviously didn't trust Cloud. He probably considered it very prudent not to introduce Cloud to his whole team in case Cloud was going to rat them out or something. Instead of doing mental gymnastics to try and explain a way that Cloud COULD have somehow known them before, it's a whole lot simpler to just accept what the game strongly implies - that they don't know him and he doesn't care what their names are at that point.

 

[Erotic Materia]

It's not listed under 10/5.

It comes after 10/5. There's a difference. Only one event is listed as having taken place on 10/5.

Interpreting it as having happened on the same date is erroneous. The timeline only gives specific events specific dates. The rest happen approximately before or after the corresponding date or event.

And as everyone has pointed out the translation of the original Japanese text, I don't think I need to comment any further about who was met before or after. The clear implication is "after."

@Jairus Where exactly is Mako being condescending? You made a claim. He refuted that claim with evidence. Pointing out errors is not condescending. Had he said "Look again, you idiot hurr hurr", then sure.

I think this ties into the overarching problem with this entire mess since you started championing for Jessie all those months ago: you can't take criticism of an idea without also taking personal offense. Everyone here has been INCREDIBLY patient with you in what is clearly a futile attempt to reason with you. It's painfully obvious to me that, short of SE themselves directly spelling out the nature of Cloud and Jessie's relationship (hell, I can't even be sure of that at this point), you will never just do what any reasonable person would do: concede that maybe, possibly, there is the tiniest sliver of a chance that you could be wrong.
Or rather, you might, but rather than be direct with your response, you'd just give a non-committal half-concession in another wall of text wherein you attempt to twist the evidence yet again to fit your desired narrative. Then when you're called out for your behavior, you attempt to shift blame to everyone else, a la:

2 - Yes, as long as it's done without snidiness or ridicule. For the most part, people here have been pretty good about it, but there have been some instances, and that only makes me dig in more when that happens

(emphasis mine)

See? It's not your fault you're acting this way. You're not to blame. It's everyone else's fault for being "snide" or "ridiculing" you. However, when you tell people "you forget that", "you're assuming", "storytelling works in more ways that you think", etc., that's not condescending in the slightest.

Regardless of all that, I want to dig more into this:

1 - Since you never said a lot of stuff, can you just give a short, simple, and summarized version of what it is you are trying to say? (You know, so we stop putting words in your mouth)
2 - If I read #1, understand it, and disagree with it, is that acceptable? (This can probably just be a simple "yes" or "no")
3 - If you answered "no" to #2, why? If you answered "yes", then we're all done here! Yay!
4 - If #2 is "no", that's a direct contradiction to "I never said I wanted everyone to agree with me. I don't expect that."
5 - Glob forgive me for getting back into this nonsense.

A simple format to clear the waters you seem to love muddying so much. Basic, direct questions requiring only basic, direct answers. So let's try to break it down. Here's your response:

EM:

1 - To answer your question, I'll again quote from MelodicEnigma:
"I for one believe there are a myriad of ways they could express what could be a simply explicit or subtextual acknowledgment of some form of mutual attraction between the two without it being such a conflict to either of their character/storytelling."
"There's definitely room for more expression with, yes, Cloud being able to reciprocate in some way that wouldn't tear down the very fabric of his storytelling."

Not exactly the clearest, most concise response, but I think it more or less works.

How about the next question?

2 - Yes, as long as it's done without snidiness or ridicule. For the most part, people here have been pretty good about it, but there have been some instances, and that only makes me dig in more when that happens.

You already provided part of an example that could work, EM - that deathbed confession you mentioned. And I added an example on top of that of how what ME and I are saying could possibly work: Cloud holding her for a moment after hearing her confession without necessarily saying a thing, or he could take her hand for a moment, again without necessarily saying anything. Just some small thing like that to acknowledge and validate her feelings.

I'm not trying to get people to validate my headcanon, Ry. I just want something like what I said above.

Sass, you only think it would be cheesy. But without seeing exactly how it plays out - dialogue (if any) and every other part of that moment - one can't be entirely sure. Was the end of Dick Tracy cheesy when Breathless kissed Tracy before she died? I never felt that way.

That is not a simple "yes" or "no". And there's the rub. You have to add a qualifier to it. It's not "yes", it's "yes, but".

However, I'm going to try to stick to your arbitrary qualifiers (even though rudeness doesn't change the validity of the evidence).

Since you didn't answer directly, but rather quoted @MelodicEnigma, I'm going to take "Cloud being able to reciprocate in some way that wouldn't tear down the very fabric of his storytelling" as to be the general core of your stance.

So, I have read the many, many, many pages of text you've written to flesh out why you think that would be a viable, reasonable course for SE to take with the Remake. I have considered the evidence you've put forth to back it. I have read the many, many, many pages of text written by others to flesh out why they think that would not be a viable, reasonable course for SE to take with the Remake. I have considered the evidence they've put forth to back it.

After weighing all of the evidence laid out before me, I disagree with your stance. I do not believe "Cloud being able to reciprocate in some way that wouldn't tear down the very fabric of his storytelling" would be a viable, reasonable course for SE to take with the Remake.

I am saying this with no snark, no condescension, and no rudeness. I am simply laying everything out in equal terms, with equal consideration, in the driest, most matter-of-fact way I can muster.

Therefore, in regards to "If I read #1, understand it, and disagree with it, is that acceptable?", my decision to disagree with your stance is acceptable, per your own response.

Having said all that, I ask that you acknowledge my differing viewpoint and accept it. No qualifiers, no "Ok, but only if" scenarios. A simple "I accept that we disagree on this particular topic" is all that I ask.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Man, how'd I get at the center of all this? I feel so used. Lol

Uhh, but just to clarify, since I kind of feel my lines are being taken a bit out of context, I want to reiterate that there's a difference between what someone could consider two characters having a simple reciprocation/acknowledgement that fits that tone (such as inadvertently pointing out beauty or behavioural traits) vs. a narrative structure fitted for the sake of romantic storytelling. If you were to ask me whether I think Cloud and Jessie could have the former, especially through banter or even in the character builidng conversations they have when we learn more about her, I'd say sure. -shrug- Subtext is versatile thing, after all. It wouldn't be taxing to write around if you wanted it to happen in some form that's more of a supplemental moment.

However, this would not be the same as what Cloud experiences with Tifa and Aerith, which, is set and expressed as it is because of that interaction between narrative and chatacter growth. Jessie doesn't fit into this simply because the story and character growth set to her in tandem with Cloud's just, plainly, isn't that way. The OG never was Jessie vs. Aerith/Tifa (really, neither are they at the core of it, that's not what FFVII is truly about, this isn't Twilight). Not giving Jessie this storytelling isn't negligence or anything either. There's a reason why it wasn't this way. I don't see how she would need a "resolution" to her feelings when the story itself doesn't propagate this. Of course this wouldn't excuse her making some quip or another in her final moments towards Cloud if that would be a thing, but that's more of a character thing than a "this is what she and the story have lead up to and she wants answers."

Either way, whether that was a thing or not, doesn't change the fact that Jessie's role and character isn't constructed to be what Tifa and Aerith are projected to be to Cloud; this already being played out in such an unconventional, specific way that affects the overall chatacter and the storytelling as a whole. That's just, the story.

 

[Jairus]

is it absolutely vital to the plot figuring out how Cloud was introduced to AVALANCHE? Like how does figuring out how Cloud knows the names of AVALANCHE members prove that Cloud has romantic feelings for Jessie?

When did I ever say that the possibility of having met them earlier proves he could have come to feel something for Jessie? I never did. They're two entirely different topics.

...The whole AVALANCHE trio was right in front of him. It's not much of a stretch to think that even though Cloud was looking at Biggs (who was talking to him the most) when he says that he doesn't care for their names, he was speaking loud enough for all 3 of them to hear him, so that they would get the clue to shut up and cut the small talk.

Which brings into question of whether he really meant what he said or was just saying it to irritate them because he was in jerk mode at the time.

So then he knows their names. How does that in any way tell anything about how well they knew each other before the mission? You learn names in one second. I never got the impression that they knew each other at all. It was always a first meeting to me and there is no indication that it was different. Plus it doesn’t change anything about the topic. Cloud simply never cared for Jessie beyond helping them out with the mission first and having a somewhat deeper relationship with all three of them at the end of all things.

There's no indication that it wasn't possible, either. Do you think they just materialized on the train and never met up prior to that to get on it? You only think he never cared for her, but nothing can be said for certain. He had the ability to flirt with her, and not all flirting is empty.

Thinking about what actually were her last words towards Cloud, a love confession would probably lessen the impact of the moment. And it would disturb Cloud considerably, probably. It might somehow work, if they followed the narration of her regrets, that she regrets that so many people died because of them and that she never told him she liked him...

Nah, it would totally lessen the impact of the other statement.

I can’t imagine a situation where this would fit. It’s better if they made it along the lines of the OG. Leaving it unsaid. I think that even strengthens her feelings, because she is resolved enough to not make them a topic when other things are more important. I think that’s who Jessie is in the end.

No, they need to be addressed and resolved in some fashion - there's no point to them being there if that doesn't happen. You don't show something in a story without directly addressing it at some point. And you're only assuming it would lessen the impact. You don't know for sure because, again, you're only assuming any implementation must automatically be bad. Do you want her to die heartbroken? Yes or no?

lolol. DLPB's "original creator's intent!!!!11" strikes again

Also, Barret very obviously didn't trust Cloud. He probably considered it very prudent not to introduce Cloud to his whole team in case was going to rat them out or something. Instead of doing mental gymnastics to try and explain a way that Cloud COULD have somehow known them before, it's a whole lot simpler to just accept what the game strongly implies - that they don't know him and he doesn't care what their names are at that point.

Again, they had to have met up in the slums to get on the train in first place. Or do you think they just spontaneously appeared on the train?

@Jairus Where exactly is Mako being condescending? You made a claim. He refuted that claim with evidence. Pointing out errors is not condescending. Had he said "Look again, you idiot hurr hurr", then sure.

It was the way he did it - automatically assuming I'm wrong rather than allowing that he might not know everything about the game and lore after all.

I think this ties into the overarching problem with this entire mess since you started championing for Jessie all those months ago: you can't take criticism of an idea without also taking personal offense. Everyone here has been INCREDIBLY patient with you in what is clearly a futile attempt to reason with you. It's painfully obvious to me that, short of SE themselves directly spelling out the nature of Cloud and Jessie's relationship (hell, I can't even be sure of that at this point), you will never just do what any reasonable person would do: concede that maybe, possibly, there is the tiniest sliver of a chance that you could be wrong.
Or rather, you might, but rather than be direct with your response, you'd just give a non-committal half-concession in another wall of text wherein you attempt to twist the evidence yet again to fit your desired narrative. Then when you're called out for your behavior, you attempt to shift blame to everyone else, a la:a
(emphasis mine)

See? It's not your fault you're acting this way. You're not to blame. It's everyone else's fault for being "snide" or "ridiculing" you. However, when you tell people "you forget that", "you're assuming", "storytelling works in more ways that you think", etc., that's not condescending in the slightest.

Oh, so you wouldn't be frustrated if you were getting nothing but criticism and disagreement and people wouldn't even try to think differently about what you were saying and actually show that they were doing that? To give you some feeling that you're not alone?
Am I the only one that has to watch what they say? Yes or no? And if no, then call out those who won't stop arguing with me and stop singling me out. And I'll concede the possibility of being wrong when you and everyone else here does the exact same thing. Without any disclaimers, qualifications, or buts.

I am saying this with no snark, no condescension, and no rudeness. I am simply laying everything out in equal terms, with equal consideration, in the driest, most matter-of-fact way I can muster.

Therefore, in regards to "If I read #1, understand it, and disagree with it, is that acceptable?", my decision to disagree with your stance is acceptable, per your own response.

Having said all that, I ask that you acknowledge my differing viewpoint and accept it. No qualifiers, no "Ok, but only if" scenarios. A simple "I accept that we disagree on this particular topic" is all that I ask.

Fine, I can accept that. I just want mine to be accepted as well. It should go both ways. How would you feel if you were effectively being told that it was pointless to believe something you believed and had invested a significant amount of time and work in things related to it? Being made to feel like that work was a mistake and a waste? Not so much directly, but through attacking the idea behind it, attacking what's been built from it.

And ME, I just don't want her feelings to be ignored or forgotten. That's always bothered me. They're a part of her character and should be addressed and resolved in some way. Because you do not introduce feelings of this nature in a story without addressing them and resolving them at some point one way or another.

 

[Erotic Materia]

Fine, I can accept that. I just want mine to be accepted as well. It should go both ways. How would you feel if you were effectively being told that it was pointless to believe something you believed and had invested a significant amount of time and work in things related to it?

(Edited to remove qualifiers)

I suppose that's the best I'm gonna get. I'll take it.

Spoiler: Sweet, sweet relief

EM, out.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I have to just ask this.

Why does all of your positioning stem from an argument from ignorance? You somehow believe that any claim that has not been proven false, must somehow be true or at the very least plausible.

That's not how reasoning or in-depth interpretation works.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You are positing premises that hinge on basically, "there's no indication of ______ either, so it's just as possible and it could happen/work" which for one, is completely bogus framing and also opens up things to possibilities that makes zero sense.

For example.

Jessie could be a Shinra android. Does the OG talk about her origin? Do we know who she really is? Where she comes from? She could have been an artificial A.I. crafted by Professor Hojo. Depending on how the creators did this, they could make it work.

Or maybe Jessie is an alien. She could be an advanced evolution of Pupu's species that has now landed on Gaia and is trying to integrate into humanity. You don't know if that's not true or not, so if done properly, it could work and make sense.

Or maybe Jessie is the distant descendant of Rikku from Spira after they've left that planet and colonized Gaia. And her expansion in the Remake could be about her discovering her ancient Al Bhed lineage. You don't know if it's not true, so it could work and it'd make sense if done properly.

That type of assumption and qualifier could work for anything.

Sure, if the creators used hiterto unknown and high-level storytelling techniques and relevant plot threads to inject Jessie into the love triangle that surrounds Cloud Strife, it is possible that it could work in such a way that it enriches the story of FFVII R. It's possible.

It's also possible for Sora to be integrated into the FFVII-R story as a cameo and it not be jarring and actually enriching and amusing.

There are endless possibilities of inclusion and changes that, if crafted in the exact, proper, and contextual way, could conceivably work and not come out looking like ass.

Possible however, doesn't mean probable.

I believe if I read enough medical journals, watched enough youtube tutorials, and took some aderall for focus, I could perform surgery on a living human being to a reasonable degree that it would be successful and not risk their life!

But does that make it probable? Would anyone potentially under the knife, be willing to trust that chance given the circumstance? Like... Again. Possible doesn't mean probable.

 

[Jairus]

(Edited to remove qualifiers)

I suppose that's the best I'm gonna get. I'll take it.

Spoiler: Sweet, sweet relief

EM, out.

I guess you don't want to answer the question, then? Too uncomfortable to do it?

I have to just ask this.

Why does all of your positioning stem from an argument from ignorance? You somehow believe that any claim that has not been proven false, must somehow be true or at the very least plausible.

Saying I'm ignorant is an example of the condescension I was talking about. Your exact wording is condescending because you're telling me what I believe. Or rather, what you think I believe. I've never used the word plausible, only possible. And never said that things had to be true.

That's not how reasoning or in-depth interpretation works.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You are positing premises that hinge on basically, "there's no indication of ______ either, so it's just as possible and it could happen/work" which for one, is completely bogus framing and also opens up things to possibilities that makes zero sense.

What isn't known for certain and hasn't been proven is always open to interpretation.

 

[Sasseli]

I was out of any serious discussion the moment Jairus said it could totally work if Jessie pulled Cloud into a kiss before she died. That's just... so... absurd...

I'm afraid this fictional scene will now forever haunt me. Well, maybe actually playing the Remake will erase that.