Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge's Roles in the Remake Thread

[Makoeyes987]

I didn't call you ignorant.

I said you used an argument from ignorance.

Which you have. There is a difference.

What isn't known for certain and hasn't been proven is always open to interpretation.

And that's not true. That's a completely illogical and fallacious premise to argue from.

I could be an alien from Mars that injects my DNA into unsuspecting people, and turn them into aliens which will slowly but surely aid me in turning the global population into aliens like me. You can't prove with certainty I'm not, therefore it's possible and just as likely as anything else.

 

[Erotic Materia]

I guess you don't want to answer the question, then?

What question? The only thing that was being asked is if you accept that we have differing viewpoints. You said you do accept that. All the other superfluous qualifiers you tacked on after that don't address the basic yes/no format of the question, so they are irrelevant.

But, if it will make you feel better, then yes, I also accept that we have differing viewpoints.

 

[ForceStealer]

Again, they had to have met up in the slums to get on the train in first place. Or do you think they just spontaneously appeared on the train?

Barret could have just told Cloud what train to be on (especially considering Cloud wasn't actually in the train). But even if they did enter the train together, the conversation makes it pretty clear that there were no introductions made, or else Biggs wouldn't have tried.

 

[oty]

Holy crap already 8 pages of this. This is fervent

Not that I'm complaining. Honestly, this was such an amazing decision. To make a focused thread about it. 10/10 ngl

 

[Jairus]

I was out of any serious discussion the moment Jairus said it could totally work if Jessie pulled Cloud into a kiss before she died. That's just... so... absurd...

I'm afraid this fictional scene will now forever haunt me. Well, maybe actually playing the Remake will erase that.

You're not helping with comments like that. I even admitted it was very unlikely, but you didn't bother remembering that.

And that's not true. That's a completely illogical and fallacious premise to argue from.

Maybe I stretched it a bit. But you don't have to put things the way you do. It just comes off as a bit adversarial with a dash of know-it-all thrown in.

There are endless possibilities of inclusion and changes that, if crafted in the exact, proper, and contextual way, could conceivably work and not come out looking like ass.

Thank you for admitting that it's possible.

Barret could have just told Cloud what train to be on (especially considering Cloud wasn't actually in the train). But even if they did enter the train together, the conversation makes it pretty clear that there were no introductions made, or else Biggs wouldn't have tried.

Possibly, but my scenario is also possible. But if there were no introductions made or attempted, how did Cloud know Wedge's name? Wedge never told him. And I already showed how certain lines could mean things other than they seem.

And EM, I was referring to this question, which is now also addressed to everyone who's been criticizing me and my idea:

How would you feel if you were effectively being told that it was pointless to believe something you believed and had invested a significant amount of time and work in things related to it? Being made to feel like that work was a mistake and a waste? Not so much directly, but through attacking the idea behind it, attacking what's been built from it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How would you feel if you were effectively being told that it was pointless to believe something you believed and had invested a significant amount of time and work in things related to it? Being made to feel like that work was a mistake and a waste? Not so much directly, but through attacking the idea behind it, attacking what's been built from it.

....I've literally had that happen in debating theories of mine, and while I don't know what "significant amount of time and work" you're referring to, that's just the nature of discussing fan shit. It's not all real, likely or etc.

And I don't see how shipping being confirmed, shown as probable or the opposite is somehow personally offensive to you or in any way stops you from enjoying it. I love lots of pairings that aren't necessarily "canon" or real. That doesn't mean anything. That doesn't detract from any creative work or endeavor at all, otherwise someone might as well just light AO3 on fire.

 

[Erotic Materia]

And EM, I was referring to this question, which is now also addressed to everyone who's been criticizing me and my idea:

How would you feel if you were effectively being told that it was pointless to believe something you believed and had invested a significant amount of time and work in things related to it? Being made to feel like that work was a mistake and a waste? Not so much directly, but through attacking the idea behind it, attacking what's been built from it.

Maybe you missed this little part in my earlier post. Here it is again:

No qualifiers, no "Ok, but only if" scenarios. A simple "I accept that we disagree on this particular topic" is all that I ask.

To which you responded:

Fine, I can accept that. I just want mine to be accepted as well. It should go both ways.

I'm not accepting your argument. I don't agree with it. And you said you accept that. I accept that you don't agree with me.

Question: Do we disagree?
Answer: Yes

That's it. That's the entire thing. Right there. One simple word: Yes.

 

[Sasseli]

You're not helping with comments like that. I even admitted it was very unlikely, but you didn't bother remembering that.

I remember, but that doesn't change the fact that I find the thought highly disturbing. I'm sorry that you feel that way, it just doesn't change my point of view. And that situation in particular isn't unlikely, it's impossible. I'm more sure of that than of Aerith coming back from the dead.

 

[Jairus]

....I've literally had that happen in debating theories of mine, and while I don't know what "significant amount of time and work" you're referring to, that's just the nature of discussing fan shit. It's not all real, likely or etc.

And I don't see how shipping being confirmed, shown as probable or the opposite is somehow personally offensive to you or in any way stops you from enjoying it. I love lots of pairings that aren't necessarily "canon" or real. That doesn't mean anything. That doesn't detract from any creative work or endeavor at all, otherwise someone might as well just light AO3 on fire.

My stories and other creative stuff that's made use of the idea. I just like for my work - and in this case, the ship it's based on - to have even a small basis in canon. But the constant, unending criticisms just wear me down and do not help the situation. And if the ship is so unpopular and hated it creates this kind of debate, why create a work involving it?

EM, you're avoiding answering the question. Please stop being evasive and do so.

You don't know it's impossible, Sasseli. You just believe it is. There's a difference.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The ship isn't unpopular.

Shoehorning a canonical basis that does not exist is for it, is.

I don't see why you think there needs to be a literal convoluted love square to justify the pairing that is good and awesome on it's own. Just because there's no real foundational canon basis for it, doesn't mean the ship is bad, your work sucks or is terrible. Like, I don't see why you'd think that. That's why "what if" and alternate deviations from the actual story are so popular. They allow for things that don't exist... To exist.

 

[Erotic Materia]

EM, you're avoiding answering the question. Please stop being evasive and do so.

NO.

ONCE AGAIN, LET ME POINT OUT THE FOLLOWING:

No qualifiers, no "Ok, but only if" scenarios. A simple "I accept that we disagree on this particular topic" is all that I ask.

You just can't do it, can you? You can't just agree to disagree. You are IN-FUCKING-CAPABLE of accepting the most basic, binary yes/no option because it doesn't give you any wiggle room to push your stupid-ass love story.

I'm done. I can't do it anymore. You are irredeemably obstinate. I'm blocking you, and I have no interest in ever hearing from you again.

 

[Pizzachu]

I haven't fully read everything that has been written in this thread, but I do want to say that I want to know more about how Jessie had learned her technical skills. Was she an incredibly bright student and could figure out how to create a bomb from scratch? Or did she learn these skills from someone else in AVALANCHE? Who exactly is Jessie, anyway? Where did she come from and why is she fighting for the planet? I want to know the answers to these questions from the Remake.

Also, a hacking mini-game might be fun.

 

[Sasseli]

Pizzachu Yes! That's the direction this thread should go! I'd be totally in for a Jessie mini game! (Although I don't know the least about hacking, but that might make it the more interesting. )
And I'd love to know a bit about her background, make her more relatable and likeable. Flesh her out. I hope they do that.

 

[Rydeen]

Also, a hacking mini-game might be fun.

Nier Automata flashbacks intensify

Jk, I’m actually one of those weirdos that didn’t mind the hacking mini game. A Jessie hacking game sounds like it could be a lot of fun. But I’d rather it be a logic/puzzle game than a standard action mini game.

 

[Jairus]

The ship isn't unpopular.

Shoehorning a canonical basis that does not exist is for it, is.

I don't see why you think there needs to be a literal convoluted love square to justify the pairing that is good and awesome on it's own. Just because there's no real foundational canon basis for it, doesn't mean the ship is bad, your work sucks or is terrible. Like, I don't see why you'd think that. That's why "what if" and alternate deviations from the actual story are so popular. They allow for things that don't exist... To exist.

I'm not saying it has to be like that. People only think I am. What was saying was - One. Single. Small. Moment. of reciprocation. No dialogue required. Something to acknowledge and validate her feelings. Is one single moment out of the entire remake series really going to ruin the entire thing?

EM, I wasn't trying to change your position. I was only asking a question - how would you feel in my position? That's not the same as trying to convince you. I just wanted to know, that's all. You don't have to be rude and insulting.

 

[Teioh]

Jairus, please. Erotic Materia has made it clear that they have given you their answer several times now and that they do not wish to continue with this discussion. You have your answer. You may not like it, you may not understand it, you may want to debate it some more - but that's their answer. Please, leave it alone.

 

[Kai Schulen]

When did I ever say that the possibility of having met them earlier proves he could have come to feel something for Jessie? I never did. They're two entirely different topics.

And yet

this particular topic has continued on for more than 2 pages with everyone nitpicking everything. Jesus christ on a pogo stick everybody. Again, I ask: how is it important to figure out how did Cloud get to know AVALANCHE when there is a variety of easy answers that can satisfy everyone's curiosity. You can claim as much as you want that this is two different things that has nothing to do with each other but to me it just looks like you're scraping for the slightest bit of evidence that says "Look! Cloud learned Jessie's name so this is evidence that he has mutual feeloodsfhkjads hfgsehjvdgkwfjetajyw3gku4qv





okay, you know what. I'm out. I AM LE AUDI 9000 HERE. There really is no point to this anymore, I don't want to be a jackass about this than I already have.

But before I go:

Which brings into question of whether he really meant what he said or was just saying it to irritate them because he was in jerk mode at the time.

.....really, what do you think? It's Cloud "I don't care about anything because r/iamverybadass edgelord supreme oh but wait I actually do secretly care about people" Strife. It's...it shouldn't be a point of contention of whether or not Cloud really didn't care about their names when his actions repeatedly prove otherwise.

 

[Sasseli]

What was saying was - One. Single. Small. Moment. of reciprocation. No dialogue required. Something to acknowledge and validate her feelings. Is one single moment out of the entire remake series really going to ruin the entire thing?

Yes.
Reciprocation would ruin everything.

 

[Jairus]

Yes.
Reciprocation would ruin everything.

You don't know that. You're only assuming. How can it affect things not even related to it and not even in the same game? That makes no sense. How can him simply taking her hand for just a moment (without even saying anything) as she's dying hurt anything? It feels like you're just trying to provoke me.

And yet this particular topic has continued on for more than 2 pages with everyone nitpicking everything. Jesus christ on a pogo stick everybody. Again, I ask: how is it important to figure out how did Cloud get to know AVALANCHE when there is a variety of easy answers that can satisfy everyone's curiosity. You can claim as much as you want that this is two different things that has nothing to do with each other but to me it just looks like you're scraping for the slightest bit of evidence that says "Look! Cloud learned Jessie's name so this is evidence that he has mutual feeloodsfhkjads hfgsehjvdgkwfjetajyw3gku4qvp

That's not what I'm doing and you know it. I never said him knowing her name would prove anything. The conversation just happened to shift to that topic during this incredibly one-sided debate.

.....really, what do you think? It's Cloud "I don't care about anything because r/iamverybadass edgelord supreme oh but wait I actually do secretly care about people" Strife. It's...it shouldn't be a point of contention of whether or not Cloud really didn't care about their names when his actions repeatedly prove otherwise.

If he didn't care about anything or anyone, he wouldn't have saved Jessie in the reactor or even asked if she was alright, and he wouldn't have stayed to keep his promise to Tifa no matter what she said or how much money she and Barret offered.

Jairus, please. Erotic Materia has made it clear that they have given you their answer several times now and that they do not wish to continue with this discussion. You have your answer. You may not like it, you may not understand it, you may want to debate it some more - but that's their answer. Please, leave it alone.

I'll leave him alone, and I'm sorry for setting him off. But it's telling that no one seems willing to call him out for his behavior in his last post. Yet the smallest thing of mine gets blown up instantly. That looks like a double standard.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes.
Reciprocation would ruin everything.

I assume you're just taking the piss here, but it does make a good segue for saying that if such a scene were nothing more than giving his dying comrade's hand or shoulder a squeeze as she goes, after he's been characteristically oblivious to her interest the whole time -- I really don't see any problem. Something like that is how I've been thinking they could play up the pathos of that moment while showing Cloud's softer side ... though I think it's more likely Tifa would be the one holding Jessie's hand while Cloud gives Tifa's shoulder a squeeze or otherwise shows her some support.

Having Cloud be affected mostly due to the effect these deaths are having on someone closest to him seems to better support a long "warming up" arc.

Though, not for nothing, with the expanded narrative of the remake, it looks like Cloud may have had about as much interaction with the trio by this point as he will have had with Barret at the same juncture. That could mean we see a little more direct concern.

I really don't expect that to include even becoming aware that Jessie digs him, though. Canonically, he's "none the wiser" (as the 10th Anniversary Ultimania put it) to the appeal he has to women for most of the original game, in the same way that Noctis just goes on oblivious to Iris's interest in him in FFXV.

But it's telling that no one seems willing to call him out for his behavior in his last post. Yet the smallest thing of mine gets blown up instantly. That looks like a double standard.

You have been given exorbitant leeway up to now, but go ahead and challenge us on whether we know how to moderate again if you really feel the need. Consider that a formal warning, because it is.

 

[Jairus]

You have been given exorbitant leeway up to now, but go ahead and challenge us on whether we know how to moderate again if you really feel the need. Consider that a formal warning, because it is.

I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just saying that he was blatantly rude and insulting to me and my work - directly so - and as far as I know, nothing's been done about it. But I won't tell you what to do. I'm sorry.

I really don't expect that to include even becoming aware that Jessie digs him, though. Canonically, he's "none the wiser" (as the 10th Anniversary Ultimania put it) to the appeal he has to women for most of the original game, in the same way that Noctis just goes on oblivious to Iris's interest in him in FFXV.

I can accept that about the OG, for which the Ultimania was written. But the remake may be a bit different about that, I don't know.

 

[Teioh]

... though I think it's more likely Tifa would be the one holding Jessie's hand while Cloud gives Tifa's shoulder a squeeze or otherwise shows her some support.

I'd love to see Tifa interacting more with the trio. I can't recall a moment in OG where she does do that? It's always bothered me that she gets no lines with them while climbing the pillar so any extra interaction would be great.

Edit: That's to say it's always bothered me starting from the moment I realised they were actually on the pillar to talk to

 

[Val]

My stories and other creative stuff that's made use of the idea. I just like for my work - and in this case, the ship it's based on - to have even a small basis in canon. But the constant, unending criticisms just wear me down and do not help the situation. And if the ship is so unpopular and hated it creates this kind of debate, why create a work involving it?

I guess this is what it boils down to isn't it. Because you could replace the subject (Cloud x Jessie) with anything, and if it had this impact on you and this response from others, then the subject is irrelevant. It just happens to be this relationship.

Let's establish something that perhaps you should come to terms with and perhaps should have long ago as it would have saved you from having such a dependence on an idea that stretches all notions of plausibility and sensibility just to qualify as possible and thus satisfy your desire. You need to deal with the fact that what you want is not something likely to happen, and in large part is not desired to happen by your peers who are examining this subject far more objectively than you are and are not making concessions so that their views might appear to have even the smallest relevance whatsoever.

How would you feel if you were effectively being told that it was pointless to believe something you believed and had invested a significant amount of time and work in things related to it? Being made to feel like that work was a mistake and a waste? Not so much directly, but through attacking the idea behind it, attacking what's been built from it.

That is life. I'm sorry that it seems the very fabric of your being is being assaulted as a result of what you believe in. You do not need to create work about your belief. Your work does not have to appeal to others, not even a single other person. It is sad that is the case sometimes, and that is how it feels to you, but perhaps if your work and beliefs did not operate based on the vindication of your fanciful views and the need for people with logical, realistic approaches to thinking to forego their rationale just to find common ground with you, people might be more receptive. You are not, in the slightest bit, entitled to affirmation of your work or your beliefs as a result of the amount of investment you have made.

This entire discourse seems predicated on your apparent fear to accept that. Because this has gone far beyond a discussion or even a debate about Cloud having feelings for Jessie. This is quite clearly about a core part of your life being challenged and rejected by others (not even maliciously but by rational conclusion about a shared reality), and you appear to have no intent on dealing with the fundamental issue that this is something that hurts you. I empathize with you but you have taken the completely wrong approach to addressing the matter.

I am almost certain you will take this as a personal attack. It's definitely personal and I am definitely not expressing this sweetly. I'm sure you think I'm making a lot of presumptions but this is, dare I say, a natural interpretation of your behavior, and I am not alone in this. But I have seen you for months now, pressure others into spending emotional currency on this 'debate' because of your need for others to accept and validate your views. Just because you need people to warm to the idea intimacy between Cloud and Jessie and your work having a theoretical canonical basis.

I just want to re-iterate that I don't harbor any ill-will towards you. But stating this feels necessary at this point. If you are happy to carry on the same way despite it all, that's your prerogative. But I hope you realize that benefits nobody.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm humbled by your frank yet heartfelt post, @Val

And let me just add, @Jairus , how sorry I am that this topic hurts you.

 

[Jairus]

You know, there was no need for you to say anything, Val. I'm tired of arguing about it. I'm also tired of being constantly disagreed with and argued with. And just when the thread/topic slows down, someone else shows up to post another disagreement and keep it going, likely not aware of the cumulative effect all of that has on a person. You're not a pscyhoanalyst, so please don't tell me what I'm thinking or feeling. I don't think you would want the same done to you.

And you know, putting me down doesn't help, either. Just saying. It just has the opposite effect and perpetuates this thing, as does the constant disagreement. I'm not asking anyone to say things they don't mean. There's just no need to say anything at all and keep it going. And incidentally, I wasn't really that invested in the pairing when I first started writing my story. it just developed as the writing went along and all the trailers came out last year.

And all the disagreement and disparagement of the idea just made me more invested in it.

I think you only say their arguments are logical and rational because you agree with them. Would you still if you didn't? It's your opinion that the idea is implausible, not a fact. Everyone has some amount of bias, nobody is purely logical. And nobody knows everything. Including me. But as many have already done, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm asking for. I've made it quite clear earlier in the thread. One small moment of reciprocity, of acknowledgement of her feelings. No dialogue needed. Even Tres has said that it may not be unreasonable.

I'm not pressuring anyone. I'm not making them reply to any of the threads. They're choosing to do that on their own. I'm just replying when replied to. Oh, and Mako, I forgot to mention this before, and I'm not trying to start anything, but if you've been in my position before like you said, why have you been knowingly contributing to doing it to someone else (me)?

What I want is to not be made to feel so alone, for people to stop arguing with me and going on and on and on about how and why they think it won't or can't work.

If you guys disagree, fine, but I don't need a list of all the reasons why or essays on how bad it would be. Just a simple, polite thing like "I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree." without all the extra exposition and without denigrating the idea itself. And before anyone goes and says I should do the same, I will, if it's also done for me. Also, before anyone brings up what happened with EM, I'll admit I shouldn't have been so stubborn about that question and should have just let it be.

Tres, thanks. It's not so much the topic as it is the overwhelmingly negative response with seemingly no thought given as to how all of that piled together would affect me.