Just Think

[DrakeClawfang]

Remember the first time you went through the Nibelheim flashback in FF7, with those two Shinra grunts you didn't pay any attention to? And then later on you find out one of them is actually Cloud?

Now, think of all the other Shinra grunts you kill while playing through the game. It gives me chills, Cloud and AVALANCHE slaughter Shinra troops by the dozen, and how many of them were just like Cloud and just wanted to impress the cute neighbor girl?

Seriously, does anyone else find cause to stop and reflect once you find out Cloud was just another grunt, and then it really hits you that those anonymous Shinra troops you kill all the time are people too? Well, relatively speaking. Does this bother anyone else, or is it just me?

 

[Tetsujin]

Do they even kill them?

They might just be knocking them out.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I always figured that in RPGs, the protagonists don't kill every enemy they fight. Beating them to a pulp and disabling their will/ability to fight is what I assume happens at least half the time.

Hell, Grand Theft Auto 4 handled this well by having some of the people you take down actually slowly move around on the ground or drop their weapon (taking them out of the fight) and slump away.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Do they even kill them?

They might just be knocking them out.

I dunno, would you survive if Cloud cleaved the Buster Sword across your chest, or when Barret fired off a round from the Gun-Arm?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I dunno, would you survive if Cloud cleaved the Buster Sword across your chest, or when Barret fired off a round from the Gun-Arm?

People do just fine when the storyline calls for it, and Cloud and the others survive the same kinds of things done to them.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I enjoy knowing Cloud and the others are cutting down real people, and butchering them or burning them alive with magic. Or maybe pounding their faces in, or shooting them up. Or tearing them apart when Vincent turns into a monster.

It makes FFVII all the more entertaining. Or hell, all of the past FF's.

Cloud and the others are clearly beyond normal men. These grunts and shit (unless they're SOLDIER) are not.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I enjoy knowing Cloud and the others are cutting down real people, and butchering them or burning them alive with magic. Or maybe pounding their faces in, or shooting them up. Or tearing them apart when Vincent turns into a monster.

It makes FFVII all the more entertaining. Or hell, all of the past FF's.

Cloud and the others are clearly beyond normal men. These grunts and shit (unless they're SOLDIER) are not.

You are one sick freak Mako.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Cloud and the others are clearly beyond normal men. These grunts and shit (unless they're SOLDIER) are not.

Of course, but the RPGs I've played where superhumans fight regular dudes, tear them apart with nuclear blasts, etc, and after the fight the lowly grunts go "Okay, you win, you can go through!/take the key/etc" make me think twice about Cloud and co. killing every single person they come across.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Of course, but the RPGs I've played where superhumans fight regular dudes, tear them apart with nuclear blasts, etc, and after the fight the lowly grunts go "Okay, you win, you can go through!/take the key/etc" make me think twice about Cloud and co. killing every single person they come across.

Why wouldn't they?

The part where clearly Cloud and the others do choose to spare their Shinra opponents (where you're given the choice to either kill the submarine crew or let them live) clearly denotes that they're being merciful when they can.

But I'm sorry, but why would Cloud let Shinra grunts and shit live, when they're clearly going all out to KILL them? I mean, I suppose if you really want to look at it that way, Cloud and the others just petrified their human opponents and left them there until someone else found them and decided to give them a soft.

Or maybe he just turned them into frogs and knocked them out.

Or maybe he was especially cruel and he tore a portal open to the Dimensional Rift with the "X-Zone" spell and sent their asses to another dimension

But the point is, is that...clearly, killing went on. It happens in all FF's. Squall and his team killed quite a few Galbadia soldiers. Zidane probably killed his fair share of Alexandrian soldiers (and they're women!)...The Returners probably killed a good number of Imperial Soldiers...Bartz and his team killed some human soldiers and random fucks wandering the world.

it's just the nature of RPGs and Final Fantasy. YOU KILL.

 

[Max Payne]

I remember reading in an interview with Nomura(or was it Kitase?) that the big contradiction of FF7 was that they were killing people to save the world, or something like.

I mean, they killed hundreds of people blowing reactors up.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Why wouldn't they?

Why would they? Yeah, I'm not saying that they never killed anyone, but their goal is to find Sephiroth and stop Shinra when applicable, not to kill every Shinra grunt they come across. That's not part of their mission, and when they have to, they have to, but beating a Shinra soldier into unconsciousness ultimately has the same outcome of killing them.

Besides, EXACTLY what happens in battle isn't canon one way or the other. Just like you may Omnislash someone, I could just have Tifa punch them out or whatever.

I see what you're saying with

Or maybe he just turned them into frogs and knocked them out.

Or mabye he was especially cruel and he tore a portal open to the Dimensional Rift with the "X-Zone" spell and sent their asses to another dimension

But there are plenty of RPGs with crazy ass attacks where its noted that the protagonists DON'T kill every one they fight. Hell, the GTA4 example I noted above is a good one.

The part where clearly Cloud and the others do choose to spear their Shinra opponents (where you're given the choice to either kill the submarine crew or let them live) clearly denotes that they're being merciful

That was for the sake of plot exposition.

Keep in mind I'm not saying they never killed anyone.

 

[Mormz]

Remember the first time you went through the Nibelheim flashback in FF7, with those two Shinra grunts you didn't pay any attention to? And then later on you find out one of them is actually Cloud?

Now, think of all the other Shinra grunts you kill while playing through the game. It gives me chills, Cloud and AVALANCHE slaughter Shinra troops by the dozen, and how many of them were just like Cloud and just wanted to impress the cute neighbor girl?

Seriously, does anyone else find cause to stop and reflect once you find out Cloud was just another grunt, and then it really hits you that those anonymous Shinra troops you kill all the time are people too? Well, relatively speaking. Does this bother anyone else, or is it just me?

OMGoMGOmG!!11! FINALY Som1 READS MY MIND! THIS HAS JKEPT ME UP AT NIGHT FOR AAAAAAGES!!!!!1!

I feel so sorrty for akll those guys leik ya! YOU KNO?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I guess I can agree with you then M.O.G.

Honestly I don't think Cloud and the other's killed everyone they saw and probably let their fair share of people go when they could.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Now I'm thinking of when you take over the Sub...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Did you ever kill them for lulz?

 

[Mormz]

That's not part of their mission, and when they have to, they have to, but beating a Shinra soldier into unconsciousness ultimately has the same outcome of killing them.

Not really. A dead man can't wake up and regroup and fight you again.

Besides, if they just "knocked them out," wouldn't it have made more sense to tie them up afterwards?

I'd rather them be dead.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Not really. A dead man can't wake up and regroup and fight you again.

Besides, if they just "knocked them out," wouldn't it have made more sense to tie them up afterwards?

I'd rather them be dead.

If you're just passing through or don't plan to stay long, an unconscious, disabled, or a guy with two broken legs will do just fine.

In real life military or peacekeeping operations where they want to keep casualties to a minimum, they do these same sort of things. Tying them up or something is not only unwieldy in real life, but it's unwieldy to be constantly expositioned in a game as well. Just leave them on the ground.

It's easy for YOU to say you'd rather them be dead, but if you're in that situation, unless you really are just a stone cold don't give a fuck killer, you wouldn't be that eager to kill, and you'd expend effort to do what you can to leave them alive, but out of your way. Contrary to what you might see in movies or whatever, killing another person is actually very difficult to consciously do.

However, I'm positive killing happens in FF7 and others as well. It's just not constant or willy nilly.

 

[Mormz]

It's easy for YOU to say you'd rather them be dead, but if you're in that situation, unless you really are just a stone cold don't give a fuck killer, you wouldn't be that eager to kill, and you'd expend effort to do what you can to leave them alive, but out of your way. Contrary to what you might see in movies or whatever, killing another person is actually very difficult to consciously do.

Ok, next time I'm running around the city with a giant sword and someone starts shooting at me, we'll see whether I would kill them. <.<

To be perfectly honest, I'd have no qualms about killing someone who was shooting at me.


Also, I find it funny that you brought this into a real life scenario. Because all of that stuff would totally happen in real life. Totally.

 

[Max Payne]

Avalanche kills a lot of people and a lot of people die as the result of their actions. Some of them innocent folk just going about their day.

Some of them were probably just like Cloud was, and some of them were probably just trying to feed their families. That's the consequence of war and battle. People die, and it's always fucked up, no matter what the cause.

That's why Avalanche is trying to make up for the shit they did in FFVII in AC and after.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Ok, next time I'm running around the city with a giant sword and someone starts shooting at me, we'll see whether I would kill them. <.<

To be perfectly honest, I'd have no qualms about killing someone who was shooting at me.

The difference between Cloud and co. and well...you, is that you have to take into account that a lot of the grunts that Cloud and co. were fighting against were well, grunts, and the power level between say, two grunts, and a superhuman with a giant sword, a giant man with a gun arm, and a giant cat like beast is large enough where Cloud and co and get away with beating them into unconsciousness if they can afford to.

In that case, the grunts are less of a mortal threat and more of an obstacle to be dealt with. Breaking one grunts arm, and busting anothers kneecap and leaving them to the fates would work just fine.

In fights where the level of skill is about equal and it's more of a fight for your life, I can see Cloud and co. fighting to the death, no holds barred.

Also, I find it funny that you brought this into a real life scenario. Because all of that stuff would totally happen in real life. Totally.

You did the same thing. Besides, its not like it's totally removed from the possibility of real life.

 

[Celes Chere]

To be perfectly honest, I'd have no qualms about killing someone who was shooting at me.

This. And when you see absolutely none of their personalities in this game, it's like another generic battle/monster. I really never saw it as destroying a character. xD

 

[Tetsujin]

I think it depends on the situation. When you're fighting for your life, you sometimes have no choice but to kill.

For some reason I just had to think about Star Wars and how Luke, who had just been a farmer up until the movie begins, just proceeds to shoot the living shit out of stormtroopers on the Death Star.

It's kill or be killed.

Also, they are faceless minions, so it's all good.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

This.

Also, you have to consider that between you and Mormz, you're a 19 year old and he's a dude from Louisiana. Saying what 'you would do' (or what any of us would do, really) in that situation doesn't apply to theirs.

It's kill or be killed.

Sometimes it definitely is. Keep in mind I'm not saying they never killed.

 

[Smaddy]

They definitely killed some people. You're given the option to kill or save people a few times (in the submarine is one I think of).

The grunts? It could really go either way. They were considered the 'enemy' of AVALANCHE, and if you think about it, nobody had considered the lives of innocent bystanders when they blew up the Reactor. So would they consider the lives of the officers of their enemy, probably not. But at the same time, especially when you consider in some situations they're in a hurry, who knows if they merely "defeated" the enemy or "killed" them. When your characters reach 0 HP they don't "die", they're just "KOed".

"Life" and "Death" are two pretty tough things to figure out the rules of in the FF7 universe. Several characters die, or should have died, and somehow survive. Other enemies who have obviously been destroyed come back to life in the retcons later on in the Compilation.

And then taking damage is a whole 'nother thing- my favorite example is Sephiroth's Super Nova- it destroys the whole universe and explodes the sun so it's right in your face... and it just does a couple thousand HP damage. They should be crispy critters!

 

[Mormz]

The difference between Cloud and co. and well...you, is that you have to take into account that a lot of the grunts that Cloud and co. were fighting against were well, grunts, and the power level between say, two grunts, and a superhuman with a giant sword, a giant man with a gun arm, and a giant cat like beast is large enough where Cloud and co and get away with beating them into unconsciousness if they can afford to.


In that case, the grunts are less of a mortal threat and more of an obstacle to be dealt with. Breaking one grunts arm, and busting anothers kneecap and leaving them to the fates would work just fine.

While I find your opinion respectable, you must first determine whether or not I too possess superhuman abilities. To logically reach the conclusion that a normal human being would not be a lesser threat to me, you would have to perform several tests.

I quite often find myself in cases where my superhuman speed and strength is needed in dire emergencies. For instance, my grandmother recently found herself in a spot of bother whilst trying to open up a jar of pickles. Now, ordinarily, pickles are just pickles. But these pickles were going on a hamburger and were in desparate need of reaching their location.

She called for my help, and using my super speed, I reached the kitchen in roughly one second. With my superhuman intelligence, I noticed the jar of unopened pickles, and with my keen instinct, I knew something was amiss. I also used my superhuman mind reading abilities to tell she wanted me to open the jar.

I grabbed the jar and used my mediocre, average human strength and found out I could not open it. I then proceeded to use my superhuman strength on the jar. Without even a bit of resistance, the lid gave way, and the hamburgers reached their full level of deliciousness.

So, considering that, like Cloud, I too am superhuman, I can easily see why he would prefer to have them killed.

You did the same thing.

Only after you.

Besides, its not like it's totally removed from the possibility of real life.

Yes, yes it is.

Also, you have to consider that between you and Mormz, you're a 19 year old and he's a dude from Louisiana.

This has something to do with anything?
And I'm not from Louisiana. Just currently stuck there.