LOST

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

We obviously don't know whether anything Christian told Locke is legit anymore. But my point is that when he told Locke he'd have to die, that was back when the statue was still standing, which I'm assuming was still back in ancient Egyptian times. So he's had to have had this power for a long time. Assuming Christian is really Locke puppet master guy, how would it take Jacob this long to find out his opponent can manipulate the dead? Unless he's really been brewing his plan over, well, millennia.

Spoiler

I think it's obvious that whatever this creature/person/thing is, it's been drug through time too, just like many other sentient beings.

And honestly, how was Jacob supposed to be aware of what this guy was doing this entire time? He probably thought he was still imprisoned in the cabin or something. Or hell, he might be aware of it, and his supposed "death" a part of his ultimate plan to be victorious in the end. But, we clearly don't know how long the guy has had this ability to mimic people, or if dead bodies have ever even came to the island before like they did with Christian and Locke. I mean, who the hell would deliberately bring a dead body with them to this place? And still even if they had, it wouldn't likely have been a person whose appearance would have aided him.

This guy, he needed someone with influence to manipulate a pawn into a position where he could kill Jacob for him. That's not Christian. Christian had no sway over anyone of the island but Jack and Claire. Neither of those would be likely to find themselves in a position to kill Jacob for him.

But Locke, he was directly influential and followed by the Others. Perfect candidate to bring him to his foe.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

Good points. My current guess is that nameless antagonist dude can mimic the form of anyone who's either died or been brought to the island as a corpse. Also, I'm convinced Jacob has to have been aware of it by the time fake Locke brought in Ben; he doesn't look surprised when Ben stabs him, though it's unclear how whether he just became aware of it on their entrance or afterward. I'll have to watch that scene again to see Jacob's body language.

Also, that ship at the beginning was the Black Rock, right? I didn't even think about that until now.

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

Good points. My current guess is that nameless antagonist dude can mimic the form of anyone who's either died or been brought to the island as a corpse. Also, I'm convinced Jacob has to have been aware of it by the time fake Locke brought in Ben; he doesn't look surprised when Ben stabs him.

Also, that ship at the beginning was the Black Rock, right? I didn't even think about that until now.

Spoiler

Holy shit, I have to see it again before I can say for sure man.

And he may have been aware, orrrrrr he can see through the bullshit to the real person underneath. But who knows, he clearly does not fear death.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

Clearly not, otherwise his reactions don't really make sense.

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

The fact that he was present at several pivotal points in main characters lives really raises my eyebrows.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

He directly touched every single one of them, did you notice that? I'm sure that's going to mean something.

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

He directly touched every single one of them, did you notice that? I'm sure that's going to mean something.

Spoiler

Has to. It's like he touched them to mark them for something.

Hell John didn't even come to until he touched him, and he responded instantaneously to it.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

Yep. That's got to count for something.

Jacob's body language did not at all match the state of someone who was surprised, btw.

 

[Max Payne]

He seemed in control the entire episode.

He moved deliberately, with purpose.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Yep.

Speaking of which,

Spoiler

was he the "shocking death" the creators were talking about in their spoiler interviews? Though the only thing I'd have a hard time answering is how he's physically different from Jeremy.

 

[Max Payne]

He must have been. We don't really see anyone else conclusively "die".

 

[Ⓐaron]

yeah.

Fuck, I have so many new interpretations of the way things go, many of them completely in conflict with one another... I'm thinking that

Spoiler

black shirt dude was really the one intended to be imprisoned in the cabin, and that the ash which would've imprisoned him must've gotten disturbed at some point. The question of course would be why Ben believed that the cabin was Jacob's, but anyway, finding out when the ring of smoke was broken would explain when black shirt dude started impersonated people. Though since Christian told Locke he'd have to die way back when the statue was still standing, it makes me wonder if maybe he's just been impersonating people for ages.

Also, the fact that Jacob's style of clothing is Roman and all the Others converse in Latin leads me to suspect that possibly the Black Rock is, contrary to what we've expected this whole time, a Roman slave ship.

Finally, the statue appears to be either Sobek or Set. I'm sure that will become significant.

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

I'm thinking he's always been able to imitate people, but his influence, and the length of time he's been able to do it was limited, until the circle was broken and he was able to manifest constantly.

But who would let him out?

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

Did Hurley accidentally fuck up the circle of ash when he panicked about randomly running into Jacob's cabin? Either that or the plane crash fucked it up, or hell, maybe it was even as far back as the Incident.

 

[Max Payne]

At this point, I doubt it's possible to accurately pinpoint the time in question.

holyshit

Spoiler

I don't think the Others from the plane crash were looking for Jacob at the cabin, but the guy who's impersonating Locke. Maybe they were trying to stop this shit before it started.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

hmm, that's definitely possible.

Also, best post I've read about this episode so far:

Spoiler

I believe the events on the island symbolically represent a game of chess between two sides: dark and light, black and white, evil and good. The game is played between two stances, who use their pieces to prove their stance. One side believes in the cooperative nature of humanity, while another believes in the destructive nature of humanity.

After tonight's episode, these two sides have been clearly illustrated...

On the Light side belongs Jacob as the leader, who uses his pieces and arranges them to prove his point: Humanity has a chance to avoid destruction, since everything before destruction "is progress".

Jacob's pieces include: Richard, Ilana, Bram and the other "shadow of the statue crew", and probably the majority of the Losties.

The leader on the Dark side is the unnamed guy at the beginning of the finale episode, in the black shirt, speaking to Jacob, in the white shirt; I would also go as far as to say this man is the Smoke Monster. He is the guardian of the underworld (of sorts), and does not seem capable of directly interfering with human affairs; instead, he manifests himself through various dead characters, and uses influence to change the course of events.

Dead character's he has manifested himself as: Christian, Alex and Locke DEFINITELY. (Perhaps Yemi). He has also, most recently, influenced Ben.

I feel this is definitely evidenced. At the beginning of the episode, the man in black told Jacob he would find a loophole and kill Jacob, who then responded by pretty much saying, "You know where to find me."

... Centuries later, the man in black animates himself as John Locke, which instills a sense of faith in Ben once again. Ben seeks judgment from the Smoke Monster. Once in the Cavern, Ben falls through the floor, and Locke leaves to find help. Coincidentally, the Smoke Monster appears, and judges Ben. Once the Monster disappears, he animates himself as Alex, who tells him to follow everything John Locke (the man in black/the Smoke Monster/Reanimated Alex) says. This obviously sets Ben up once again, when he is faced with the the choice to listen to Locke, or leave. Having been threatened by the Smoke Monster, and being what felt like betrayed by Jacob, Ben stabs him.

Although Ben is being used, I still contend he will turn out to be on the right side at the end of it all.

All these characters are pawns, rooks and bishops in a large game of chess being played on (and off) the island; this "game" is indicative of the ultimate nature of humankind, and the Valenzetti Equation is suggestive that the dark side wins so far. Inevitably, the good side will overcome the odds, and change the numbers before the end of the series.

sauce (spoilers, obv)

To this I would add that since

Spoiler

Bram appears to be on Jacob's side, it is quite likely that Widmore is on the side of Jacob's adversary, given how adamantly Bram has denounced Widmore in various scenes we've seen up to this point.

Also, who lies in the shadow of the statue when the question is finally answered? The real body of John Locke. The one who will save us all, perhaps? This will unquestionably be important next season.

Finally, I would note that Jacob's last words ("They're coming") are almost certainly a reference to the 815 survivors being blown forward in time from the Dharma era.

Of course, given the way this episode completely thrashed everyone's expectations for the direction of the series, a good chunk of everything posted so far will probably be proven wrong by the first episode of season six anyway, so take it with a grain of salt

 

[Shademp]

Wow...

Spoiler

I'm quite emotional about Juliette's death. I feel sorry for her and how alone she was at the end. It really complies with what she said before, "live together, die alone". And there she was, all alone. God that scene leaves me...hurt...

When Jacob said "They're coming" I was just assuming it to be another foreshadow of the 'villains to come'. But it makes more sense for it to be Jack & co. Guess that the explosion at the Swan will trigger another time travel incident?

Which btw leads to my next confusion... Was the bomb supposed to go off or not?
I mean, everything up to that point suggested that nothing could be changed.
But Richard said in the future "I watched them all die", and if the bomb went off then that makes things sort of confusing. To my recollection he never saw Jin, and so he can't be referring to sending them to their deaths as "watching them die".

Did Jack and the rest survive the explosion? Could it have been contained by the electromagnetism? Was it all predetermined or was there uncertainty? The former is highly suggested but I'm just not 100% sure.

This epic storyline touches me deeply. Especially the theme with having people who are (at least) millennia old increases the epicness with over 9000.

I find it to be a good interpretation that there is this battle between good/optimistic/Jacob versus evil/pessimistic/black-shirt-dude. It reconnects with the theme shown in the first season; what-with the board game Locke was playing and everything.

What did Richard answer to the question "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" I could probably find a translation somewhere but is too cba

Edit:

Spoiler

When Jacob touched Locke and made him wake up, was I the only one who went "Woah, he's Jeebus! Which must mean...the guy in the black shirt is Satan/Hades/Anubis!!" Though it would not make sense to have Jesus be white and blonde, unless he's a shapeshifter like our lord of the underworld apparently can be.

 

[haichinamie]

LOST is shot in Hawaii, nnyess?

 

[Max Payne]

Wow...

Spoiler

I'm quite emotional about Juliette's death. I feel sorry for her and how alone she was at the end. It really complies with what she said before, "live together, die alone". And there she was, all alone. God that scene leaves me...hurt...

When Jacob said "They're coming" I was just assuming it to be another foreshadow of the 'villains to come'. But it makes more sense for it to be Jack & co. Guess that the explosion at the Swan will trigger another time travel incident?

Which btw leads to my next confusion... Was the bomb supposed to go off or not?
I mean, everything up to that point suggested that nothing could be changed.
But Richard said in the future "I watched them all die", and if the bomb went off then that makes things sort of confusing. To my recollection he never saw Jin, and so he can't be referring to sending them to their deaths as "watching them die".

Did Jack and the rest survive the explosion? Could it have been contained by the electromagnetism? Was it all predetermined or was there uncertainty? The former is highly suggested but I'm just not 100% sure.

This epic storyline touches me deeply. Especially the theme with having people who are (at least) millennia old increases the epicness with over 9000.

I find it to be a good interpretation that there is this battle between good/optimistic/Jacob versus evil/pessimistic/black-shirt-dude. It reconnects with the theme shown in the first season; what-with the board game Locke was playing and everything.

What did Richard answer to the question "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" I could probably find a translation somewhere but is too cba

Edit:

Spoiler

When Jacob touched Locke and made him wake up, was I the only one who went "Woah, he's Jeebus! Which must mean...the guy in the black shirt is Satan/Hades/Anubis!!" Though it would not make sense to have Jesus be white and blonde, unless he's a shapeshifter like our lord of the underworld apparently can be.

Spoiler

From what little Latin I know, he said "He who will save us" or some shit.

 

[Alex]

Spoiler

He who will save/protect us all.

According to Lostpedia

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

it's not been officially established that Juliet's dead; she was still alive at the fade to white at the end of the episode. I'm not convinced she'd survive long if brought back to the present, but hey, anything's possible on this island.

And I'm pretty sure they didn't change anything. The title of the episode indicates to me that everything they did was necessary for history to unfold the way it did. That doesn't really negate free will though, since their free will is counteracted by the free will of Dharma people etc.

Also Richard could have said either "He who will save/protect us all" or "He who will serve us all," given that there are two verbs that sound almost the same.

 

[Shademp]

Spoiler

it's not been officially established that Juliet's dead; she was still alive at the fade to white at the end of the episode. I'm not convinced she'd survive long if brought back to the present, but hey, anything's possible on this island.

And I'm pretty sure they didn't change anything. The title of the episode indicates to me that everything they did was necessary for history to unfold the way it did. That doesn't really negate free will though, since their free will is counteracted by the free will of Dharma people etc.

Also Richard could have said either "He who will save/protect us all" or "He who will serve us all," given that there are two verbs that sound almost the same.

Spoiler

What has indicated that there is a battle of free wills? Then again Lost has shown to be only quasi-deterministic; Desmond apparently exists outside of normal time, and certain events are deemed as necessary to occur but not necessarily in a certain time and space (postponing a death or remembering Daniel Faraday's visit which was indicated to not originally have happened).

But just taking a brief look at Lostpedia reveals just how little I know. I should probably be quiet now.

 

[Ⓐaron]

They've been running with the "free will vs. determinism" theme for so long that it's almost a given that it's going to crop up a lot towards the finale, and

Spoiler

the way Jacob and black shirt guy reveal their views of humanity in their opening conversation are reflected by the way they treat characters - Jacob is forthright about his intentions while black shirt guy spends the entire time lying to people and pretending to be other people. This reflects the views, respectively, that mankind is naturally good (expressed by Jacob) and that mankind is naturally evil (expressed by black shirt guy). If mankind is naturally good, then simply being forthright with them and allowing them exercise of their free will will result in the most favourable outcomes; if mankind is naturally evil, then deceiving them and manipulating them will result in the most favourable outcomes. Then again, black shirt guy probably isn't going for the most favourable outcomes, since he wants to prove mankind is destructive and pretty clearly indicates his desire to find a loophole resulting in Jacob's death in their opening conversation.

 

[Alex]

Another big question that needs asking is whether or not the plan to change things worked.

Personally I'm leaning towards no. That what happened at the Swan site, was ALWAYS meant to happen and always did happen, and that the incident room at the Swan, the one thats been all buried under with concrete LIEK CHERNOBYL, as Sayid pointed out in Season 2, always contained the remnants of the drill site and

Spoiler

whatever's left of Juliet

 

[Ⓐaron]

Yeah I'm pretty sure nothing changed. The only way it would've is if Desmond would've been involved somehow, and since he wasn't on the island in 1977, he couldn't have changed anything.

I'm still not convinced

Spoiler

Juliet is dead though. Never believe anyone in this show is dead until you see the corpse, and even then, it's still not entirely definitive, as Nikki and Paulo prove.