Love Triangle Spoiler Thread

[Alessa Gillespie]

WE CLOTIS LOSE.

*hides numerous quotes from creators and ACC* O RITE NAO I SEE IT.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Suddenly koibito goes back to the original translation.


So who's winning now? Huh?

This is too lulzy. Thank you for existing FFVII and internets. Thank you.



EDIT: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL WE ADMIT DEFEAT

But the Blue Team will continue spreading The Word regardless!

 

[Zephyr]

Wow...they're predictable . Its going to be like pre-AC all over again..."this counts for Cleris but if the exact same thing refers to Cloti, it doesn't count because... *insert bullshit reason here*...

I don't know if this is allowed, but can anyone pinpoint me to this forum or whatever it is...I feel like laughing

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I find it hilarious that they don't in the least acknowledge that Cloud seems to ship Zerith, what with putting Zack's sword there to rest. Oh sweet irony.

 

[I Am Not Me]

They're bound to just ignore ACC as it gave them much butthurt with the addition of Zack, y'know.

They make lots of evidence against Cloti, but I don't see much credibility in their claims, and minus points for suddenly changing their minds when it comes to their advantage. Evidence against Clerith however... are not based on speculations.

AMIRITE


It's so sad and full of lulz. I can't shut up about it even if I tried. I'm sorry.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ten to one "And a person can't call someone their lover, sweetheart, or bf/gf with out both sides feeling that same way. There's absolutely NO WAY around this." is the same girl who tried to use the netter slang argument to specifically argue against me saying that the line in reunion files 'Tifa is a koibito to someone' because you could use it in a way that was non reciprocated.
Which is true, of course, you can, sort of, but let's not context, grammar, common sense, or the speaker get in the way of denying a ship, shall we?

BTW, pinkydinks, Tifa being a beloved is merely a single piece in the thousand piece puzzle known as the available evidence. In this grand ole puzzle, the preponderance of the pieces, and indeed, the overall picture, are not changed by a singular statement of lover.

At best, this will put you on equal terms WRT to koibito, but does nothing to change the remaining in universe empirical evidence, character and creator statements, narrative themes, or anything else of that nature.
And if it's simply Aerith's opinion in the matter as opposed to that of the narrator (who is incidentally a limited rather than omniscient narrator, but let's leave that aside for now), then smeg it all and call 'er Nancy.

In short, my dear delusional devotioners, BRING IT.

 

[Isabella]

As Ryu said, even though it's written in third person, it's not an omniscient narrator; it's told from "the woman's" perspective, just as CoT is all through Tifa's POV. Also IIRC, koibito means one's beloved; in other words, the receiver of the love rather than the giver, though mutuality is often understood. So we have Cloud being the receiver of Aerith's love at this point in the story, but we have Tifa being the receiver of Cloud's.

 

[Lily Ella]

Ten to one "And a person can't call someone their lover, sweetheart, or bf/gf with out both sides feeling that same way. There's absolutely NO WAY around this." is the same girl who tried to use the netter slang argument to specifically argue against me saying that the line in reunion files 'Tifa is a koibito to someone' because you could use it in a way that was non reciprocated.

Flip-flop, flip-flop. I thought that they were the ones who absolutely INSISTED that it could be one-sided. It could be one-sided, I suppose, but, like all of you have already said before... CONTEXT.

Though in some people's heads, I guess that it's only one-sided if Tifa is involved.

And if it's simply Aerith's opinion in the matter as opposed to that of the narrator (who is incidentally a limited rather than omniscient narrator, but let's leave that aside for now), then smeg it all and call 'er Nancy.

It's like Case of Tifa... the story is mainly from Tifa's POV, but she's not the actual narrator.

They're bound to just ignore ACC as it gave them much butthurt with the addition of Zack, y'know

ACC > any of the novellas, in terms of importance. How many people actually read these novellas, asides from us crazies? I only skimmed through them.

 

[Rinoa]

So we have Cloud being the receiver of Aerith's love at this point in the story, but we have Tifa being the receiver of Cloud's

Deep down they know this, which is why for all the TLS lurking they do, they still play pretend in their own forums.

"Northern Crater"? Just because it doesn't have a pink layout doesn't mean it's not theirs. Their side of the 'debate' there was such FAIL that they had to close it from public view.

Sketchy and inconsistent, just like everything they claim.

 

[Ⓐaron]

If they reopen NC I'll voluntarily go another year without sex.

...well it probably wouldn't be voluntary

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Deep down they know this, which is why for all the TLS lurking they do, they still play pretend in their own forums.

"Northern Crater"? Just because it doesn't have a pink layout doesn't mean it's not theirs. Their side of the 'debate' there was such FAIL that they had to close it from public view.

Sketchy and inconsistent, just like everything they claim.

Most of the semi-decent arguments are, in the end, still just theories. And that's all Clerith really ends up being: well-thought theories, claims about Cloti being super-uncanon and a couple of half-assed claims by Japanese descendants.

 

[GeoMill]

I wonder if they have an explanation for the fact that Cloud is a symbol of something important.

Oh, how I wonder what THAT means.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Most of the semi-decent arguments are, in the end, still just theories. And that's all Clerith really ends up being: well-thought theories, claims about Cloti being super-uncanon and a couple of half-assed claims by Japanese descendants.

Most of them aren't even well-thought-out.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

If by well thought out you mean 'shit they pull out of their asses'...I guess
There is a difference between theorizing based on given evidence and making shit up.
They just do the latter.

Like "Cloud meets Aeris in teh flowerfields for some erotic gardenin" even though we're explicitly told he's headign home to 7th heaven and does not stop for Aeris (whose presence he's not even aware of)

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Cleriths crack me up in general. Because of their "OMG! OURS IS A TWAGIC WUV! CANON!" fodder, but mostly because of their defensiveness. There's nothing wrong with liking Clerith. I enjoy crack pairings myself, but I at least KNOW I am fanning a crack pairing.

If Nomura or Nojima was to come out and recant a decade of Cloti by saying, "We decided to go with Aerith" you bet your pink ribbon I'd be pissed and grumpy, but I wouldn't NOT ship Cloti. For them, it's all or nothing.

Of course, it's easy for me to say that. MY couple is the canon couple. **smirk**

 

[Lily Ella]

Cleriths crack me up in general. Because of their "OMG! OURS IS A TWAGIC WUV! CANON!" fodder, but mostly because of their defensiveness. There's nothing wrong with liking Clerith. I enjoy crack pairings myself, but I at least KNOW I am fanning a crack pairing.

The defensiveness if what cracks up a lot of us. They seem to get personally offended (and sometimes even hurt) when we say things like "Cloud only loved Aeris as a friend." Saying that Cloud/Tifa are canon apparently makes us "elitist"... whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

If Nomura or Nojima was to come out and recant a decade of Cloti by saying, "We decided to go with Aerith" you bet your pink ribbon I'd be pissed and grumpy, but I wouldn't NOT ship Cloti. For them, it's all or nothing.

I'd just be hella confused. Like... "WTF, mate? You've been going on and on about Cloud/Tifa, and all of a sudden, you just changed your minds and changed the story? Are y'all high?"

 

[kelly20]

ugh...why are people making such a big deal out of this.. Aerith saw Zack in Cloud, and fell in love with him naturally...I thought this was known for a while now..

who cares if SHE calls Cloud a Koibito, we all know who called Tifa one..
and its still probably before she meets Zack anyway and finds out everything..

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

who cares if SHE calls Cloud a Koibito, we all know who called Tifa one..
and its still probably before she meets Zack anyway and finds out everything..

Nomura? ...WAIT DON'T TELL ME THE CANON COUPLE IS NOMURA/TIFA! :bmonster:

 

[Tennyo]

Nomura with his 2005 hair and Tifa might actually be hot.

*ahem* Anyway

Suddenly koibito goes back to the original translation.

Ladies and Gentlemen! Boys and Girls! Welcome one and all the the LTD Shrine Circus!

Up next, the unbelievable, the dangerous, the death defying Clerith Shippers in their biggest act yet! THE BACK PEDAL TRANSLATION!!!!!

Feast your eyes as they take the Japanese word 'koibito' and SPLIT IT IN HALF to suit their needs!!!!

Crowd: Oooooooo!!!!!

Now watch as they cause the romantic context of the English word 'sweetheart' to simply disappear, leaving only the definition of "nice person" in it's place!

Crowd: Aaaaaahhh!!!!!!

Now for their next and final trick, watch as they now backpedal AND PUT KOIBITO BACK TOGETHER TO ONCE AGAIN SUIT THEIR NEEDS!!!!

Crowd: Yaaaaaay!!!! *lots of whistling and general cheering*

But koibito means lover, sweetheart, and or gf/bf. You can't have any of those with out the other side willing to return those feelings. If this statement doesn't clear it up, I'm not sure what will.

Because this statement / quote shows how both Cloud and Aerith feel towards one an other.

And a person can't call someone their lover, sweetheart, or bf/gf with out both sides feeling that same way. There's absolutely NO WAY around this.

Oh yes, people cannot utter, "Koibito," in reference to someone else unless that person indeed returns those feelings. Anyone who does will only find that their mouths emit nothing but silence. The strong magicks binding the use of the word make it so.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I'm a member of CloudxAerith forums and a Clerith shipper, I'll start by putting that on the record, along with: not all of us are like you describe. I'm not. They can speak for themselves so I'll not speak for my fellow CxA members, but know that not all Cleriths act like many of you say. I simply support Clerith, I'm not rabid over it. I also support CloudxTerra (FF6) and to a much lesser extent AerithxSeph, if that helps ease the tention a bit. Just saying, I ship other pairings too.

That aside, I didn't come here to cause trouble with anyone, I came to offer a Clerith view on the "koibito" thing - well, cool. I'm hesitant about any translation, *especially* fan ones, so I'm going to wait for an official translation before I make a decision on what this means for the LT. And yes, I know perfectly well that the Reunion Files uses "koibito" to refer to Tifa, I don't dispute that at all. In fact, I embrace it, which brings me to my next point.

SE has continually offered contradicting accounts of the FF7 universe. They're always making retcons and changes to the story, and the LT is no different. SE has gone out of their way to give evidence Cloud could love either or both of them. This "koibito" thing is a perfect example of SE giving both sides more credibility. This is largely why I never have and don't wish to take part in LT debates - I don't see the point when both sides make strong cases.

More than that, I really don't have a problem with Cloti. Sure, I believe Cloud loves Aerith, but Tifa? Hey, she's awesome, she's a beautiful woman and a cool character, one of my favorites from VII. If SE said "Cloud loves Tifa", my reaction would likely be "cool, good for them", same as it would be if they said Cloud loves Aerith.

In the end, as far as I can tell Cloud hasn't been stated to definitively love either of them. No confessions of love, no sex scenes (don't bother mentioning the original Highwind scene with the Chocobo stable, I know all about it), no kisses....well, *Yuffie* kisses Cloud in their date, where are the Cluffie shippers?

Am I going to say anything about Clerith that'll make you guys here change your minds? Probably not. Are you going to tell me anything that'll get me to ship Cloti? I doubt it. IMO, just play the games, watch the movie and read the novellas and Ultimanias, and make up your own mind about who Cloud loves, be it Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, Sephiroth, Zack, Kadaj, Barret, whatever. Choose your pairing and enjoy yourself.

 

[Tennyo]

Wow, it certainly is refreshing to see someone from your side explain themselves in such a calm matter. And it's nice to see that you actually acknowledge all points. I don't mean any offense or anything but we're just not used to seeing it.

Well I certainly hope you decide to stick around. We do have a Clerith club here. Have you checked it out? It could use another member.

 

[Isabella]

Welcome to TLS, Drake.

I think most of us realize that not all Clerith fans are as rabid as the ones we're talking about. I don't have a problem with people who like the pairing, and plenty of others here have said the same thing. What most of us get snarky about are some of the ridiculous claims we've all encountered in debates. These claims have a way of making Cloud into a jerk, Tifa into a pathetic doormat and Aerith into some sad Mary Sue. It's the character assassinations that bother me the most about some of the more far-fetched Clerith theories.

But this discussion isn't just about shipping. I don't particularly ship anybody. I just have an analytical mind and like to dissect stories, and figuring out Cloud -- not just who he loves, but the guy in general -- is a fun pastime. Which is why I and a lot of others hang out in these types of threads. But if you don't care to tear apart the narrative to look for answers the way some geeks like me do, and you just want to enjoy shipping your pairing and you don't care what's "official," then I can respect that.

Edit: Tennyo, your post above cracked me up.

 

[Rinoa]

SE has continually offered contradicting accounts of the FF7 universe.

Not when it comes to who loves who. It has never been retconned - a word people are throwing around incorrectly lately - that Cloud & Tifa and Zacks & Aerith are destined for each other.

In the end, as far as I can tell Cloud hasn't been stated to definitively love either of them.

Why is this even necessary? By your standard, Rinoa and Squall aren't canon, whilst Aerith and Cloud never even had a chance.

No confessions of love, no sex scenes (don't bother mentioning the original Highwind scene with the Chocobo stable, I know all about it)

You dismiss what happened in the games (Cloud's confessions in the lifestream, Cloud & Tifa sleeping together under the Highwind) and what Nomura said (Tifa is the recipient of Cloud's love on a major publication) because it goes against your 'belief'?

SE giving both sides more credibility

There's no way that Aerith thinking of Cloud as her lover - while enamoured with the Zacks in him - equates to any credibility in that pairing ever happening.

In fact, this has quite the opposite effect - as in the Maiden novella. It shows how much Aerith was in denial over the loss of Zacks. CC made that clear enough.

this discussion isn't just about shipping

Just quoting this because it's never repeated enough. I don't care who ships what, it's the people who take their 'beliefs' so seriously they can't enjoy the happy endings for what they are. They have to pick it apart, turn characters/situations into something they aren't, and make ridiculous standards to disprove the canon...

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Not when it comes to who loves who. It has never been retconned - a word people are throwing around incorrectly lately - that Cloud & Tifa and Zacks & Aerith are destined for each other.



Why is this even necessary? By your standard, Rinoa and Squall aren't canon, whilst Aerith and Cloud never even had a chance.



You dismiss what happened in the games (Cloud's confessions in the lifestream, Cloud & Tifa sleeping together under the Highwind) and what Nomura said (Tifa is the recipient of Cloud's love on a major publication) because it goes against your 'belief'?


There's no way that Aerith thinking of Cloud as her lover - while enamoured with the Zacks in him - equates to any credibility in that pairing ever happening.

In fact, this has quite the opposite effect - as in the Maiden novella. It shows how much Aerith was in denial over the loss of Zacks. CC made that clear enough.


Just quoting this because it's never repeated enough. I don't care who ships what, it's the people who take their 'beliefs' so seriously they can't enjoy the happy endings for what they are. They have to pick it apart, turn characters/situations into something they aren't, and make ridiculous standards to disprove the canon...

Riiiiiiiiight about here, is the reason why I don't see the point of LT debates, and also kinda the reason I was hesitant to post that. Well I figured someone would pick apart my well-meaning post, I guess congratulations on being first. *walks away*

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Certainly in a story, there are characters you can see hooking up with other characters or would like to, even if they don't actually do so. Ja, we get it. Cool. Whatever. Matter of preference.

When you start raping canon up the ass ala Harmony style is when I start having a problem. It's when people spout nonsense like "Cloud/Aeris flowerfield sexxorz" and "Cloud smiled at Aeris ONRY" (even though the theme was composed for the one he gave Tifa/kids), or making up Japanese people and redefining terms like koibito to mean 'nice person' and THEN SUDDENLY GOING BACK TO "lover" once it refers to Aeris.
Flip-flopping, double standards, making shit up, bastardization of story and characters -- that's why I participate in debates.

I don't give a crap about what people like. This debate has never been about that, at least not for the majority of us. And the Clerii we refer to here are mostly Devotioners, which make up a tiny part of the fandom (that's why they lurk where they do and are as defensive as they are. They need their numbers).

For example, nobody believed their koi_____bito nonsense, at least no one outside their forum. Ask any japanese to tell you that "bito" isn't slang for hito or any such nonsense.

I don't see the point when both sides make strong cases.

Care to show me how both sides make strong cases? Because one side is constantly changing interpretations, shifting things around, changing definitions of words and making Japanese teachers/friends/places up. Like WacDonalds.

And "koibito" is no playfield leveling agent. It has never been the foundation of the story between Cloud/Tifa. We did not claim Cloud/Tifa were confirmed after RF. C/T were a couple in FFVII. The story continued to show that throughout the Compilation and what we show is a coherent whole, starting with the original and working just fine with every added piece of the compilation. The Clerii are the ones who constantly have a problem with every new thing that comes out, because it has to be twisted to fit what they want the story to be about, instead of what it is.

There is nothing new about Aeris thinking of Cloud as her lover. She said the exact same thing in Maiden. Right before she was wrong in pretty much all she thought she knew about Cloud. She thought she loved Cloud, until the image she tried to put together woke Zack because he recognized it as his own. There is nothing new about that in White Lifestream.

So no, I don't consider this "koibito" (still waiting on hito here) to be SE's way of leveling the field. They have no need to do that. They have never done it before.

But as was said, if you enjoy your ship, good for you.
It just doesn't mean that it is just as valid an interpretation simply because you have one.

Riiiiiiiiight about here, is the reason why I don't see the point of LT debates, and also kinda the reason I was hesitant to post that. Well I figured someone would pick apart my well-meaning post, I guess congratulations on being first

You don't paeticipate in debates because people take apart your posts? No shit, that's the whole point. And well-meaning has nothing to do with it. Rinoa wasn't attacking you, nor anyone else. What you say can be wrong without you ever meaning to be "mean".

You come here saying "don't even mention that" and throw around your beliefs, yet run away when people contest it. Let me be the one to break it to you: HAVING AN OPINION DOES NOT MAKE IT CORRECT. You will find that many of us don't sugarcoat here, sorry. We don't agree, we tell you why we think you're wrong.