Love Triangle Spoiler Thread

[A]

Hi there Drake, have a good time here.

Let's not all scare Drake away now.... and to you Drake, no one means to generalize when we talk about people who make certain claims to how people debate against Cloud/Tifa. Hell, there are equally as crazy Clotis as there are for Cleriths. I don't have a problem with Cloud/Aerith, but once it starts portraying Cloud as someone who didn't give a damn about Tifa, or Tifa as someone who was a stalker to Cloud and did nothing more but try to whore out her attention for him, that'll hit the spot.

Am I going to say anything about Clerith that'll make you guys here change your minds? Probably not. Are you going to tell me anything that'll get me to ship Cloti? I doubt it. IMO, just play the games, watch the movie and read the novellas and Ultimanias, and make up your own mind about who Cloud loves, be it Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, Sephiroth, Zack, Kadaj, Barret, whatever. Choose your pairing and enjoy yourself.

This. As long as you're fine with the pairing you support, support it. But of course, if people are going to debate about this, I won't hesitate debating with them.

Did I mention there's a Clerith club? Like Tenny said, we need a new member.

EDIT:

Riiiiiiiiight about here, is the reason why I don't see the point of LT debates, and also kinda the reason I was hesitant to post that. Well I figured someone would pick apart my well-meaning post, I guess congratulations on being first. *walks away*

What do you mean? This is the right forum to debate, isn't it...? We share opinions here, and people are allowed to go against it. If you don't want someone disagreeing with your posts, please take them over to the Clerith section.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I don't have a problem with Cloud/Aerith, but once it starts portraying Cloud as someone who didn't give a damn about Tifa, or Tifa as someone who was a stalker to Cloud and did nothing more but try to whore out her attention for him, that'll hit the spot.


This. As long as you're fine with the pairing you support, support it. But of course, if people are going to debate about this, I won't hesitate debating with them.

Did I mention there's a Clerith club? Like Tenny said, we need a new member.

Ah, now that *first* part I can agree with. Tifa isn't weak at all....well, yes she has her weak points, but all the cast members do, it's what makes them human and believable.

As for the club, cool, where do I sign?

 

[A]

Yep! All the characters do have their weaknesses/flaws, but that doesn't make them bad characters.

And also, here's the Clerith club:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=900

Enjoy!

 

[Makoeyes987]

DrakeClawfang, if you can't tolerate or accept meaningful debate and criticism of your ideas....why did you post about them? Posting on a forum opens you up to that, and surely you should've known that and not feel that if someone had the audacity to challenge your viewpoint, that you have to leave. It wasn't even a personal attack from Rinoa. It was a legitimate rebuttal of what you said. Why the attitude?

We don't silence dissenting or differing viewpoints on this forum. You won't be banned for not liking a certain pairing or talking about them. You can say and like what you want, but in a discussion of plot you also have to accept others will have a different say as well and be able to deal with it, and respond to it accordingly. There's no censorship here. Only discussion, debate and openness.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

What do you mean "scare him"?

I'm not going to agree with him simply to appear "nice" to him. Drake seems to think disagreement and "taking posts apart" (slang for "debatin" & "showing me why my ~proofz~ has no leg to stand on") = beign mean.

If disagreements and further discussion of said disagreements scare him then he came to the wrong thread.

EDIT:
Damn it, boy! Stop beating me to it every time.

 

[Tennyo]

Tennyo, your post above cracked me up.

I aim to please.

 

[A]

I did not see his response to Rinoa, so I edited my post.

I aim to please.

What's that video by the way?

 

[Rinoa]

I guess congratulations on being first. *walks away*

This the exactly the type of "taking shipping seriously AND personally" people were talking about in the previous posts. Very inappropriate for a discussion based on facts.

So much for not being like the others as you said. They all tuck tail and leave just as righteous-like... though they usually do a few more rounds of ignoring whole posts when faced with the inability to back up opinions with facts.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

So much for not being like the others as you said. They all tuck tail and leave just as righteous-like... though they usually do a few more rounds of ignoring whole posts when faced with the inability to back up opinions with facts.

As I said, I just don't see the point of having to defend my beliefs. "Defending" implies I'm being attacked. Which begs the question why? I'm not attacking the Cloti pairing, at least not on purpose. You guys disagree with my views, alright, fine.

Back up opinions with facts? I could do that, and then likely someone would post to disprove what I posted, and I would probably be expected to rebuttal that, and back and forth and voila, an LT debate. As I've said, doesn't interest me. Besides, I'm sure any evidence I could provide is something you've already seen, and vise-versa, so why bother? It's not like a Final Fantasy game where if Cleriths and Clotis hack at each other enough, one side will be defeated and the victory fanfare plays.

I believe something, you guys believe something else. Why make a big deal out of it?

Actually, I *do* have one quote I'd like to share before I head to bed.

Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just two sides holding different views.

 

[Isabella]

So Drake, your point is that you believe there is no right answer? That in itself is debatable. A lot of us believe we were given a definitive answer.

 

[Tennyo]

What's that video by the way?

Just some random dude on a unicycle doing tricks. It's supposed to be a metaphor of the contents of the post that came before it.

 

[Rinoa]

As I've said, doesn't interest me.

So why are you here? Actually, don't answer. That doesn't interest anyone, either.

What interests me is that you were acting defensive and victimized without having any reason to.

Although, I *do* have one quote I'd like to share.

But that quote is in reference to a war.

There is actually such a thing as right and wrong when it comes to certain things... Jews were killed and blacks were enslaved. It was wrong.

Not only that, people can change for the better when they do what's right.

You can make up your own conclusions about FF7 and think for yourself without having to visit a forum/site to learn the "interpretation du jour". Debating isn't all that hard when evidence is on your side.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I could do that, and then likely someone would post to disprove what I posted, and I would probably be expected to rebuttal that, and back and forth and voila, an LT debate

That's of course, assuming that your rebuttal actually does it's job in rebutting.
It's only been a back and forth between us because the Clerii get pwned, go away for a while, ignore posts, and then come back repeating the same things as if nothing's happened. That's the cycle.

Simply responding is not countering. Saying "No, you're wrong" without backing it up is not a rebuttal.

You seem to think that because we disagree we must both either be right, or both be wrong.

Also, as Bella said, claiming something is inconclusive is debatable.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Sorry, Drake. As long as there's such a thing as "interpretation" then everything else is debatable. Besides, having enemies makes live more interesting. At least to me.

Though I do like it when people get along.

Oh yeah, and there's such a thing as "correct interpretation" too. This is when one sees what the author/creator intended with whatever you're interpreting. It's like the Bible, or all the various religions. Different interpretations, but everyone else believes there's is the correct one. But we know there can only be one correct interpretation, and that is which we can consider a true religion. Even then most interpretations of the Bible is oftentimes disputed as a lot of what it contains cannot be proven as facts. Hence all the different religions claiming they are the one true religion.

As such, the problem with those Cleriths is that Cloti is being supported by facts throughout the whole compilation, not interpretation. These are bare facts glaring you in the face, being shoved down your throat. That's why some people get really annoyed when stuff gets made up to dispute ze facts and claim them as true. Because it would come off as people "denying it"/"not getting it"/"being stupid".




HONOW I just brought religion into this. I should shut up now.

PS: All evidence point to Clack, by the way.

EDIT: LOL TENNYO

 

[Ryushikaze]

Drake, the people here, as a majority, see the LTD and all the associated nonsense as simply a matter of discourse on the narrative, a la the Rinoa is Ultimecia discourse, or the discussion of whether or not Shadow was indeed Relm's father/ Laguna was Squall's (and yes, I do still see folks arguing he's not). Or the actual name or lack thereof of the fusion swords.

It's not about winning, or who should be with who, but what the narrative is empirically and thematically demonstrating. Preference is jack and diddly in our eyes.

But really, I'm curious why the standards seem so much higher for FF7 than the others. I mean, Cloud and Tifa are the third most progressed 'party' couple out of all 12 and change games. I mean, really, what standard must they aspire to? Why must, to hyperbolize a bit, a press conference be held for FF7, but for no other game's couples?

And remember, 'there is no couple' and 'you can choose the couple' are still positive claims, and require the satisfaction of their particular burdens of proof.

If you wish to continue this further, I do encourage you to keep that in mind.

To emphasize this concept of it not being about preference or anything of the sort. I came up with the notion of 'the short list'. A series of statements and incidents, devoid of any waxing poetic, easily checkable with the game, that on their own, support the notion that within the compilation, Cloud is romantically interested in Tifa, and that this feeling is mutual. A simple, factual list, intended to establish a prima facie case. No silver bullets, no lynchpins, just a solid fortified pile of evidence. Simple, matter of fact statements. Not a tearing down of the opposing argument, but a solid basis of my own, from the basics up. Sadly, the other side seems unwilling to do this, assuming their desired conclusion instead of basing their argumentation on a solid foundation.

In a way, it's much like the incident with the fusion sword name. Explicit statements, photographic proof offered, the opposition's argument essentially boiling down to 'well it just is, so there'. Granted, not everyone was that way, and did look for confirmation evidence, but they were so sure of their accuracy in the first place 'just because'.
It seems to me, in a lot of cases, it's an unwillingness to honestly admit one's possible mistake and honestly assess the whole of the evidence from a perfectly intellectual standpoint.

 

[A]

PS: All evidence point to Clack, by the way.

I wouldn't mind if Clack was canon.

 

[Tennyo]

PS: All evidence point to Clack, by the way.

Oh you *hand gesture*

EDIT: LOL TENNYO

My circus post?

 

[I Am Not Me]

Drake, the people here, as a majority, see the LTD and all the associated nonsense as simply a matter of discourse on the narrative, a la the Rinoa is Ultimecia discourse, or the discussion of whether or not Shadow was indeed Relm's father/ Laguna was Squall's (and yes, I do still see folks arguing he's not). Or the actual name or lack thereof of the fusion swords.

Wait, what?

So Rinoa isn't Ultimecia? I was wanting that to be true because I don't like her, but the truth is I just read something like that somewhere and I agreed.

And Laguna is Rinoa's father! Don't get me started on why I think this is the truth of FFVIII.

I wouldn't mind if Clack was canon.

Of course you wouldn't. It already is.



Also, I guess it's true about the preference thing. I mean, we all have our preferences. I prefer Cloti over Clerith, even though I know Clack is canon. I prefer bananas over rotten bananas. I prefer Quistis over Rinoa. Arguing over these preferences is a waste of time. That's why we mostly argue the claims of proofz.

EDIT:

Oh you *hand gesture*



My circus post?

OH ME

And yes, your circus post.

 

[Makoeyes987]

As I said, I just don't see the point of having to defend my beliefs. "Defending" implies I'm being attacked. Which begs the question why? I'm not attacking the Cloti pairing, at least not on purpose. You guys disagree with my views, alright, fine.

Buh what? "Defending your beliefs/ideas/opinions" has nothing to do with attacking you, and everything to do with intellectual accountability and common sense. If you're going to go into a discussion and put forth a position, proposition, opinion, or whatever, then unless it's the most superficial of superficial topics (i.e. small talk) then you put forth a reason why that's based in some form of tangible fact. Everything has a reason. People don't just spawn ideas or opinions out of the blue. It's not asking a lot to ask someone to state the basis of their belief. This isn't war, it's just common sense of conversation and discussion.

Back up opinions with facts? I could do that, and then likely someone would post to disprove what I posted, and I would probably be expected to rebuttal that, and back and forth and voila, an LT debate. As I've said, doesn't interest me. Besides, I'm sure any evidence I could provide is something you've already seen, and vise-versa, so why bother? It's not like a Final Fantasy game where if Cleriths and Clotis hack at each other enough, one side will be defeated and the victory fanfare plays.

Yeah, that's called mature debate. Why is that such a chore? If you can't be arsed to actually discuss something rationally with fact or evidence, then there's something wrong. Because it's what people do if they converse beyond small talk and chit chat. You say something, explain it, then the other person responds in kind. It's not a social taboo or something to fear. People do it all the time and don't take things personally. They either enjoy the stimulating nature of debate itself, or they go in and learn something new and open their mind. If it doesn't interest you, then why do you participate on internet discussion boards? A real discussion forum is a place for alternative viewpoints and ideas to meet and interact with each other. Nothing's more stifling and boring than just meeting at a place where everyone thinks the same and do nothing but agree and stagnate in their own ideas and consensus. If you can't accept and be capable of presenting your ideas to people who don't share them and then adequately discuss them when challenged, then doesn't that say something about the idea's viability itself? If your viewpoint is equal or greater than an opposing viewpoint then it should be no problem at all presenting it logically and propping it up with the reasons for its viability. People bother, because it's the fundamental nature of discussion and idea exchange.

And that Squall quote has absolutely no context regarding discussing why you like X pairing and think it's canon. That's just a comment on moral relativism and the nature of human conflict. That's an entirely separate discussion and debate right there. It doesn't abolish the fact that it's the responsibility of a viewpoint's holder to put up fact and reason behind their belief and not hide behind opinion and subjective interpretation.

 

[Isabella]

Hmm. I suspect a lot of these people who say they're being "attacked" would have no trouble participating in normal discourse if the subject were anything other than Cloud's love life. It seems some people have become so emotionally involved with this topic that anyone who disagrees with them is attacking them as a person, in their eyes. Which is unfortunate. I think it's just as valid a topic to dissect as any other plot point in the game.

But why do people get so emotionally involved? Is it just because it's about wuv? Are they inserting themselves into the story? Is it their own private fantasies that they feel are being attacked?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I did not comment on the Squall quote before, but a difference in views is the very essence of a rational discourse. It does not mean we are being mean, or attacking you, or anything like that to look at your argument, analyze it, and counterpoint it.

Just the other day, A and I- and I hope you do not mind this example being used A- got into a discussion over question of whether breasts enhanced by stem cell therapy ought to be considered natural or artificial, and this discourse contained much analysis and rebutting of each other's points. But this was not mean, or spiteful, or anything of the sort. It was engaging and well thought out.

It wasn't about attacking or defeating, even though we disagreed, but about explaining and refining our points.

This is a disagreement over a question of canonicity. We disagree with each other on which pairing is canon, but we have jackall care which one you like. Ship Harry/Hermi all you like, just don't insist that in HP7 she dumps ron for bolthead in the end.

And I must echo Bella. Many people do get unduly defensive on this subject- and topics like this in general-, and I would like to know why.

Oh, and Mei, no, R!=U. Rinoa has a normal lifespan, and there's a succession of witches after her anyways.

 

[I Am Not Me]

But why do people get so emotionally involved? Is it just because it's about wuv? Are they inserting themselves into the story? Is it their own private fantasies that they feel are being attacked?

I think that may be the reason. I heard from somewhere that the relationship between Clerith!Aerith and Clerith!Cloud is the most ideal wuv relationship ever.

And we usually see the characters get twisted into what they aren't, so this could be their self-insertion in the works. They are being shaped into their ideals. Thus a Sue-ish Aerith.

We can say it's the same reason why rabid Twilighters get so angry when you say their favorite series sucks. You're attacking their private fantasies.




As for me, I get emotionally involved sometimes because I'm easily moved. I get moved by different things, however.

EDIT:

Oh, and Mei, no, R!=U. Rinoa has a normal lifespan, and there's a succession of witches after her anyways.

Does this mean Adel had a normal lifespan too? D: I thought he/she was very, very old though...

And anyhow, regardless of whether or not it was true, I still like to think that my FFVIII party pwned future Rinoa aka Rinoa!Ultimecia. Just for my sick, sick anti-fantasies. Don't mind me.

 

[A]

@ Isabella: Unfortunately this goes both ways. People claiming that they're being jumped on, stalked at, and bullied really need to consider their phrasing, as of now I know that there are said people looking over this thread right now as I speak. This implies to the Clitos as well. So sad how people will unintentionally go so far into making a fictional pairing work out.

And what Ryu said. One can have a 'debate,' without mocking the other, and respecting one others views (just as long as it's not jacked up like Tifa's a slutty cow and Aerith's a stupid bitch), and it doesn't really matter which pairing you prefer, just as long as you like it. Debating's a whole other issue though.













Srsly though. CLACK IS CANON.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Okay, had a good night's sleep.

First off, I'd like to apologize to the other posters for overreacting last night. I admit I took things too personally, that's been my Achilles heel. I'm sorry, I know you guys weren't attacking me.

Secondly, the reason I don't want to defend my beliefs is that I'm fairly sure any bit of evidence in favor of Clerith has already been debated and a theory put forth to disprove it. That's largely why I don't see the point, I'll just be arguing something others have already argued. I don't understand as a whole *why* Cleriths and Clotis have to debate for the validity of their respective pairings and why we can't just co-exist peacefully. In that vein, after this post I'll be stepping away from LT threads and posting elsewhere here.

Before I go, however, I thought a bit and realized there *are* things I can say about Clerith that you may not have heard before So, I'm not going to provide evidence to support my pairing when you've already heard it. Instead, I'm going to say why I personally ship Clerith.

I watched AC long before I played the game itself, at the time I didn't know any better and didn't think anything of Cloud living in the church. One thing I did odd was Aerith still played a larger role in the film than the other protagonists, because hey, she was dead. But she was still around, and she and Tifa both tried to help Cloud with his troubles in their own way. I played Kingdom Hearts before VII, so again, I didn't think anything about the reunion scene in the credits except "cool, she's alive".

When I actually played VII, that was when I really started to develop my opinion. Cloud seemed to warm up to Aerith and was friendlier to her than to Tifa. I found it odd that Cloud would at first, refuse to help his childhood friend with AVALANCHE, but within minutes of meeting Aerith he was agreeing to protect her and help her home. In that vein I also thought their scene at Cosmos Canyon was cute, if a bit out-of-character for Cloud. Up until she died Aerith also played a larger role in the storyline, once she was dead Tifa had a larger role, but when the two of them shared the spotlight Aerith seemed to be more important, which was fine to me because I'm used to female-mage protagonists (Rosa, Rinoa, Garnet, etc).

When I read the novellas, I found Case of Tifa a bit odd. At first it definitively seemed to support Cloti, but as the novel progressed the relationship seemed to grow unstable. Cloud and Tifa lived together, but Cloud was distancing himself from her and heading off on his own, and Tifa was trying to keep their family with Marlene and Denzel together. Around the same time I played KH2, which was also, Cloud running from Tifa. I also found it odd that Tifa wanted to help him fight Sephiroth, when in AC she agreed he had to do it alone, but so it was.

After that point, I was kinda sold on the idea of Clerith. Because across the various mediums, Cloud seemed to have no problem opening up to Aerith and was drawn to her. By comparison, he distanced himself from Tifa who wanted to help him but didn't really understand him that well. Does Tifa love Cloud? Absolutely, that was fairly obvious, and it was fairly obvious that Aerith loved him too. From what I saw though, Cloud reciprocated Aerith's feelings more than Tifa's.

So, there you are. That's what I believe and why. As said before, I'm going to step away from the LT threads now.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

As you said there are actually a thousand and one rebuttals to your statements as to Cloud being more open to Aerith versus Tifa, etc. And although I'm puzzled by you wanting to post something to a thread you have no intention of following, I'd like to once more state that no one is questioning a person's reasoning for enjoying Clerith. In fact, no one cares if you do prefer it, or your reasoning behind it. What is in question in the LTD is canon.

There is only ONE relationship that is clearly canon and designated to be so. Nojima himself has said it repeatedly. Nomura (in regards to KH itself said that Nojima's original role for Tifa was very distinct, but that he wanted the player to have to analyze Light vs Darkness etc).

As for the Clerith pairing itself, although I don't personally like it--at all, I don't think less of anyone that does. Heck, one of my favorite Crack pairings is Fack, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just astute enough to be aware that the pairing I'm enjoying is a crack one.