Love Triangle Spoiler Thread

[Ⓐaron]

I think what irks me so much about the claim that Clerith is canon is that it requires Cloud and Aerith to both turn into supreme cunts. Cloud has to take advantage of his childhood best friend's love for him to the point where he's living with her but doesn't actually care about her, and Aerith turns into basically a homewrecker. It doesn't really make any sense to me to have Cloud living with Tifa and raising a family with her if he doesn't care about her, especially after the extent to which they went in ACC to emphasize that Cloud and Tifa are Denzel's new parents. That alone would be enough to reinforce my perception that CT is canon, but the words of the creators pretty much confirm it.

Not that I have any problem with enjoying other pairings - as long as people recognise which ones are canon and which aren't.

 

[holdthesun]

I think what irks me so much about the claim that Clerith is canon is that it requires Cloud and Aerith to both turn into supreme cunts. Cloud has to take advantage of his childhood best friend's love for him to the point where he's living with her but doesn't actually care about her, and Aerith turns into basically a homewrecker. It doesn't really make any sense to me to have Cloud living with Tifa and raising a family with her if he doesn't care about her, especially after the extent to which they went in ACC to emphasize that Cloud and Tifa are Denzel's new parents. That alone would be enough to reinforce my perception that CT is canon, but the words of the creators pretty much confirm it.

Not that I have any problem with enjoying other pairings - as long as people recognise which ones are canon and which aren't.

I agree with for the most part, but I think you're exaggerating to some extent. Does Cloud really need to be in a romantic relationship with Tifa to care for her as a person, or be a loving parent to Denzel? Not really. It didn't require of them to sleep in the same bed, or show affection here and there for both kids to feel the parental love they require (Marlene doesn't even count cuz she has Barret), it is all shown to work out in Case of Tifa. Cloud does care for Tifa, it's undeniable, but is that love romantic or like a brother-sister would have, is very questionable.

DoC aside from being Vinsento's story, still could have shown them bonding a bit more, but it didn't. When they talk on the phone they just seem like best-friends, nothing more... they don't even show them standing next to each other in the cutscenes. Sure, they didn't want to change focus from the main character of the story by including any CLOTI scenes, but still, if properly executed an easter egg would've worked out just fine, if that was any of SE intention. Instead, there is nothing indicative so far about their relationship evolving in a romantic sense after ACC.

 

[Ⓐaron]

my point is that Cloud already knows how Tifa feels about her - she's made that very clear with "Words aren't the only way to show etc." and a number of other factors. By the point of events discussed in DC it's inconceivable that they wouldn't have discussed the state of their relationship, and I have a very hard time reconciling that with the idea of a platonic relationship. It isn't really even credible anyway, considering how much Cloud went out of his way to (attempt to) impress her when he was younger, but even assuming that his feelings had died, he'd have to be pretty callous, given her feelings, to move in with Tifa but not have a romantic relationship with her. As for not seeming like a couple on phone calls and the like, keep in mind they've been together for several years by the time DC happens, so they won't seem like "newlyweds" anymore - relationships change after a couple of years, assuming they last.

 

[holdthesun]

my point is that Cloud already knows how Tifa feels about her - she's made that very clear with "Words aren't the only way to show etc." and a number of other factors. By the point of events discussed in DC it's inconceivable that they wouldn't have discussed the state of their relationship, and I have a very hard time reconciling that with the idea of a platonic relationship. It isn't really even credible anyway, considering how much Cloud went out of his way to (attempt to) impress her when he was younger, but even assuming that his feelings had died, he'd have to be pretty callous, given her feelings, to move in with Tifa but not have a romantic relationship with her.

Thing is, Case of Tifa never clearly hints at Tifa wanting a romantic relationship with Cloud. She only wants a real family of her own to care for (and people call her a slut, jeez, fuck off), and as far as love goes on her part, it seems to develop into a more motherly-type love for Cloud, by the end. "Do you love me?" - was very obscure. She sees him as a big kid that needs a loving parent to care for him, and seems happy in that role, therefore; their relationship may have just as well went into that direction.

As for not seeming like a couple on phone calls and the like, keep in mind they've been together for several years by the time DC happens, so they won't seem like "newlyweds" anymore - relationships change after a couple of years, assuming they last.

I just pointed to that to further make my point that DoC does not at all indicate any progress in their relationship, but only that Cloud “feels lighter” (unintentional quote from ACC), for reasons more likely relating to him letting go of his guilt and all. It's was a missed opportunity, most likely due to SE having no intention of canonizing the couple, at least at that point. That phone call can’t be used for evidence of anything on it’s own. But, it's all up in the air at this point and nothing's certain.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Does this mean Adel had a normal lifespan too? D: I thought he/she was very, very old though...

She was old but in human terms.

And anyhow, regardless of whether or not it was true, I still like to think that my FFVIII party pwned future Rinoa aka Rinoa!Ultimecia. Just for my sick, sick anti-fantasies. Don't mind me.

Fair enough, just so long as you don't insist it as being canon.

Secondly, the reason I don't want to defend my beliefs is that I'm fairly sure any bit of evidence in favor of Clerith has already been debated and a theory put forth to disprove it. That's largely why I don't see the point, I'll just be arguing something others have already argued. I don't understand as a whole *why* Cleriths and Clotis have to debate for the validity of their respective pairings and why we can't just co-exist peacefully. In that vein, after this post I'll be stepping away from LT threads and posting elsewhere here.

I can't speak for the shippers, but I'm just arguing narrative here. Not about being right, but about discovering what's right, submitting it for review, and seeing what you've got left. As for why we can't live in peace, You might as well ask why the folks who say R=U and R!=U can't get along.
Of course, the thing is, we can live in peace. I get along well with a number of people I disagree with on very specific issues, but I do not view this as a polarizing thing, because I actually enjoy discussing these differences with people.

Before I go, however, I thought a bit and realized there *are* things I can say about Clerith that you may not have heard before So, I'm not going to provide evidence to support my pairing when you've already heard it. Instead, I'm going to say why I personally ship Clerith.

I watched AC long before I played the game itself, at the time I didn't know any better and didn't think anything of Cloud living in the church. One thing I did odd was Aerith still played a larger role in the film than the other protagonists, because hey, she was dead. But she was still around, and she and Tifa both tried to help Cloud with his troubles in their own way. I played Kingdom Hearts before VII, so again, I didn't think anything about the reunion scene in the credits except "cool, she's alive".

When I actually played VII, that was when I really started to develop my opinion. Cloud seemed to warm up to Aerith and was friendlier to her than to Tifa. I found it odd that Cloud would at first, refuse to help his childhood friend with AVALANCHE, but within minutes of meeting Aerith he was agreeing to protect her and help her home. In that vein I also thought their scene at Cosmos Canyon was cute, if a bit out-of-character for Cloud. Up until she died Aerith also played a larger role in the storyline, once she was dead Tifa had a larger role, but when the two of them shared the spotlight Aerith seemed to be more important, which was fine to me because I'm used to female-mage protagonists (Rosa, Rinoa, Garnet, etc).

I've always found Rosa to be just as effective a combatant as a mage, and really, everyone in FFIV's endgame was a mage save Kain, but pfeh.
Of course, I feel it should also be pointed out that the non protaganist females also fit mage archetypes Rydia summons/ black, Quistis does Blue Magic, Selphie does a lot of white and time, Eiko white/summon

When I read the novellas, I found Case of Tifa a bit odd. At first it definitively seemed to support Cloti, but as the novel progressed the relationship seemed to grow unstable. Cloud and Tifa lived together, but Cloud was distancing himself from her and heading off on his own, and Tifa was trying to keep their family with Marlene and Denzel together. Around the same time I played KH2, which was also, Cloud running from Tifa. I also found it odd that Tifa wanted to help him fight Sephiroth, when in AC she agreed he had to do it alone, but so it was.

Thematic purposes. In AC, it was a strict struggle of blade v blade, which he could win, but it was his emotional issues he needed her help with. In KH2, his battle with Sephy was the emotional one, the battle of his light verse his darkness, So his doubts, his darkness, needed her help. He, meanwhile, is running from the comfort and warmth she provides, as he is in AC, presumably to protect her, as was part of his motivation for distancing himself in AC, in addition to looking for a cure for Geostigma as we learn from ACC.

After that point, I was kinda sold on the idea of Clerith. Because across the various mediums, Cloud seemed to have no problem opening up to Aerith and was drawn to her. By comparison, he distanced himself from Tifa who wanted to help him but didn't really understand him that well. Does Tifa love Cloud? Absolutely, that was fairly obvious, and it was fairly obvious that Aerith loved him too. From what I saw though, Cloud reciprocated Aerith's feelings more than Tifa's.

It's interesting you say all that, since Cloud's biggest instances of opening up have always been to Tifa- lifestream sequence, highwind, discussions during CoT and AC, 'He opened his heart up only to her, etc', and Tifa is said by the makers to understand Cloud all too well, and does satisfactorily help him.
As for the reciprocation aspect, not to drag you into the LTD, but I feel that you should always be able to point to specific examples in these situations. Could you, please?

So, there you are. That's what I believe and why. As said before, I'm going to step away from the LT threads now.

The thing is, most of what I got from that is more why you like the pairing, rather than why you think it is narrative fact, and that's perfectly fine, but it seems like you might be confusing the two. So when we say 'no, C/A is not the case', you take it as an attack on the pairing and the people who like it, rather than a disagreement over the narrative itself.

You're perfectly free to like a pairing without it being at all canonical, like Tifaer or RoRyd, but this isn't a thread for that. This is specifically for analyzing the story and picking out which of the girls he favors over the other, of what the creators are telling us. Preference is largely irrelevant, as should be evidenced by the several folks who who have posts basically along the lines 'I adore Clerith, but canon it is not. Ah well.'

But yes, if the LTD is not for you, may you go in peace, and make sure you enjoy the great rest of the forum, Drake.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

In-game FFVII he says nothing has changed for him, meaning (and unless you missed the entire lifestream sequence) he still loves Tifa. As for ACC and DoC and the novellas, they are very much Cloti. As far as SE giving a specific statement to the fact, well, they aren't dumb. The debate fuels sales, but they've pretty much shut the door on it given the new scenes and reaffirmation of the "family" theme.

No one needs to tell me the sky is blue for me to see it.

 

[holdthesun]

In-game FFVII he says nothing has changed for him, meaning (and unless you missed the entire lifestream sequence) he still loves Tifa.

I'm interested in recent evidence (DOC, ACC, OTWTAS) , not something that is 3-4 ago from where the Compilitation left off.

As for ACC and DoC and the novellas, they are very much Cloti.

That's very subjective imo, I saw very little CLOTI in ACC, and especially DoC (how you came up with that I have no clue what so ever). The novellas? you mean Case of Tifa? yes, I agree with you on the beginning of it, but not for the second half. The only thing in the compilation that is truely CLOTI is Last Order, and that's pretty irrelevant at this time.

As far as SE giving a specific statement to the fact, well, they aren't dumb. The debate fuels sales, but they've pretty much shut the door on it given the new scenes and reaffirmation of the "family" theme.

Right, that's the business side of the matter is very clear. But, if that prevents for there to be clear evidence and not vague appeals to emotion or some anecdotal crap that only creates more confusion, I think it's a waste of time to debate on the pairing at this point. The matter is very controversial, and the pair may as well turn out in a platonic relationship, which is what Mr. V doesn't see happening. Thing is, you never know with the evidence there is now.

No one needs to tell me the sky is blue for me to see it.

That's not the case with Cloud and Tifa, it's only that obvious to those who want to see a certain pair end up together, and hold a bias. There are those who look at it objectively, outlining all posibilities based on the current amount of evidence. If it were as clear as you say it is, the whole Clerith crap would only continue to exist in very limited circles among dedicated fans.

 

[annacamille]

I thought that Case of Barret made a pretty good case for Cloud/Tifa. Cid and Barret seem to find it natural that Cloud and Tifa ended up together.

The two quickly filled each other in on recent events.
"I left Marlene with Tifa. Since she's taken to her and all."
"Good for you. Whole world's clappin' you on the back. So Cloud's with Tifa?"
"Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin' out, but it sounds like he's got his own business keepin' him tied up now. A delivery service."
"Cloud? Run a business?"
"You can bet it's Tifa kickin' his ass into shape."
"I see. In the end, it's the women wear the pants."

But this may have already been brought to your attention, holdthesun.

 

[Ⓐaron]

My point is that without any particular evidence that their feelings have changed since the Lifestream scene, it's more or less safe to assume they haven't changed. I haven't seen any evidence that either's feelings have changed, thus I remain convinced that Cloti is canonical.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Holdthesun, you seem to see the controversy as evidence of lacking a clear answer, but like with the creation/ID V evolution argument, that simply does not hold water.

The evidence for C/T is clear to any reasonable standard. It is a relationship. Not a perfect one, not without its issues, and that's what CoT is about. Them being strained by Cloud's nagging doubts and worries, setting the stage to follow up with AC/C, where they return to a communion and return to living with each other.

To say nothing of the Ultis, RF, etc.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

That's not the case with Cloud and Tifa, it's only that obvious to those who want to see a certain pair end up together, and hold a bias. There are those who look at it objectively, outlining all posibilities based on the current amount of evidence. If it were as clear as you say it is, the whole Clerith crap would only continue to exist in very limited circles among dedicated fans.

I'd beg to disagree. I watched ACC with four people, 3 of which had never played the game and to them it was obvious Cloud loved Tifa. They were completely impartial. The fourth person knows more about Final Fantasy than I can hold a candle to and they favor Clerith but admit it's the non-canon "I wish it were so" relationship. And the Clerith crap does only exist in limited circles. A majority, in fact THE majority, of non-forum dwelling fans believe Cloti to be the love story.

But back to the point you made on current amount of evidence. One, you can't ignore the game--no matter how old it is. That's the SOURCE material. And the source material points to a specific couple. Last order points to Cloti, VII Cloti, the novellas Cloti (if you know the reason he leaves in Case of Tifa you are more reaffirmed in Cloti than ever) DoC they are still together.

So what current evidence do you know of that changes that?

 

[holdthesun]

Anna, the Case of Barret exerpt is just as valid as evidence in support of Tifa feeling motherly love for Cloud, as anything romantic. In fact, I lean towards the former more on that.

My point is that without any particular evidence that their feelings have changed since the Lifestream scene, it's more or less safe to assume they haven't changed. I haven't seen any evidence that either's feelings have changed, thus I remain convinced that Cloti is canonical.

This is where we are different, because seeing Last Order, I never seen the same level of affection towards Tifa from Cloud in ACC. Case of Tifa does have some sweet moments, but they just become trivialized by the end of the novel. DoC I don't even bring up.. Even in the added „damzel in distress“ scene in ACC you don't really get any definite indication of Cloud loving Tifa in a romantic sense.

The evidence for C/T is clear to any reasonable standard. It is a relationship. Not a perfect one, not without its issues, and that's what CoT is about.

Ryushikaze, I understand that and fully aknowledge that relationships are not always perfect and the stagnation and distance moments they‘re dealing with are absolutely normal in serious relationships.

Them being strained by Cloud's nagging doubts and worries, setting the stage to follow up with AC/C, where they return to a communion and return to living with each other.

Yes, they return to a communion (nice way of putting it btw) and continue living with each other. Now, does that mean they developed a romantic relationship? No.



Don‘t get me wrong, I‘m relatively indifferent, but I support their pairing, because it makes perfect sense and compliments the story, as is Zack + Aerith. But, I‘m not convinced with the amont of evidence that makes you people so sure it‘s canon.

 

[A]

Well, I think:

1. Tifa being referred to as a koibito.
2. Being stated to reveal their mutual feelings for each other.
3. Revealing that they will always be together in a sense that they belong together.

Is enough to show that it's canon. There's no need of an official confirmation for a pairing to work out. And by the way, I like your signature.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I'm interested in recent evidence (DOC, ACC, OTWTAS) , not something that is 3-4 ago from where the Compilitation left off.

The story of FFVII does not end with each disk and begin anew. Neither does it stop in the game and start once more with AC. It's a continuous narrative.
Therefore, the original game does not go out the window, because it is the foundation of the rest of the Compilation.

but not for the second half.

Explain.

The only thing in the compilation that is truely CLOTI is Last Order, and that's pretty irrelevant at this time.

Why is Last Order irrelevant?
As I said, please stop looking at the story in fragments. Cloud and Tifa either are in a realtionship or they are not.
There's no 'Well, it's Cloti for the first disk, then Cloud/Yuffie the second and Cloud/Seph the third.'

Thing is, you never know with the evidence there is now.

So, you're saying it's inconclusive?
You run into the same problem Drake did. You would still need to show that it is inconclusive.

If it were as clear as you say it is, the whole Clerith crap would only continue to exist in very limited circles among dedicated fans.

The people who believe Cleris is canon are actually quite few, despite what Devotioners would ahve you believe.
And just because a number of people think the world i flat, it doesn't make it correct simply because the opinion exists.

 

[A]

Well, I think:

1. Tifa being referred to as a koibito.
2. Being stated to reveal their mutual feelings for each other.
3. Revealing that they will always be together in a sense that they belong together.

Is enough to show that it's canon. There's no need of an official confirmation for a pairing to work out. And by the way, I like your signature.

EDIT: What makes you think Last Order is irrelevant? Because it's in the 'past?'

 

[Fairheartstrife]

And by the way, I like your signature.

That is a pretty badass signature. I second that.

 

[holdthesun]

Well, I think:

1. Tifa being referred to as a koibito.

you know, I saw you guys bring this up over and over and over again, so I googled for the thing, because I was so confused and stumbled onto this:

http://www.clerith.com/Sweetheart.htm then any arguementation brought up on this board with regard to this sacred word just fell apart.

2. Being stated to reveal their mutual feelings for each other.

I dunno, can you be a bit more specific?

3. Revealing that they will always be together in a sense that they belong together.

It does seem that way, and it makes sense, but as I said I'm not convinced of that with the status quo.


EDIT: Yes about LO, just because it's so far behind. It was before Aerith mainly, which as we all know, is the reason we have a debate in the first place.

 

[Ⓐaron]

That Devotion essay has been so thoroughly discredited that I'm amazed anyone would bring it up in debates anymore. Someone less lazy than me who remembers more specifics than me should do the runthrough.

 

[A]

Oh lawd.



You do realize that their information is not only completely biased, but wrong? If those people aren't to believe that, 'tachiba,' means standpoint, then I'm not going to bother even trying.

Please don't even bother bringing up their essays. If you'd like, it'd be very simple to look over each of their sentences and show how wrong it seems.

I dunno, can you be a bit more specific?

Revealing their mutual feelings under the Highwind, stated in DoC.

It does seem that way, and it makes sense, but as I said I'm not convinced of that with the status quo.

You don't have to be convinced if you don't want to, but if a quote like that can't convince you then I can't do anything about it except for debate.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

you know, I saw you guys bring this up over and over and over again, so I googled for the thing, because I was so confused and stumbled onto this:

http://www.clerith.com/Sweetheart.htm then any arguementation brought up on this board with regard to this sacred word just fell apart.

You do know what can of worms you just opened...don't you?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Anna, the Case of Barret exerpt is just as valid as evidence in support of Tifa feeling motherly love for Cloud, as anything romantic. In fact, I lean towards the former more on that.

When we say "the woman wears the pants" it is a phrase that is in reference to the woman in a romantic relationship with a man.
That is its origin, implying that the woman wields more decision-making power in a family. It always refers to couple. If someone says your mother wears the pants, they mean she does instead of your father, the traditional decision-maker.
So this "motherly" bullpoop is just that: bullshit.
That phrase has nothing to do with mothering. It has to do with power in a family (marriage), or a relationship. Traditionally it was the man, hence the idea of the woman (normally subservient) wearing the pants instead of a skirt -- assuming the role traditionally belonging to the man.

So no, your interpretation does not stand because that's not what the phrase means and how it's normally used.

Once again, mental acrobatics are necessary in order for the Cleris interpretation to align with the narrative and reality.

Yes, they return to a communion (nice way of putting it btw) and continue living with each other. Now, does that mean they developed a romantic relationship? No.

A communion?

This is the only woman he let into his heart. This is the woman whose promise to be her hero he etched into hsi heart.
This is the woman whose opinion he holds above all others'. This is the woman that who makes him feel it is ok to be himself and that his life is going to be ok with her by his side. This is the same woman who has made her feelings for him known and vice-versa.
This is the woman he starts a family with, lives with and raises children with.
Denzel sees them as mother/father figures. The creators call Cloud/Tifa/Denzel/Marlene a family of 3-4. No one else is included. What they have is not simple friendship, or else all of AVLANCHE would be included.
This is the only woman who truly understands him. She is the woman he's admitted to having feelings for and being happy she returns them (in the OG script).

And you're telling me two people living together after that = platonic?
By what stretch of imagination?

 

[Reference]

Revealing their mutual feelings under the Highwind, stated in DoC.

Point me to this, someone. Please and thanks.

 

[Channy]

I don't think DoC should really be used as evidence for any Cloti/Clorith action. Cloud spends more onscreen time with Rosso. Closso anyone?

 

[Reference]

Yea but now I'm curious. I wanna see.

 

[A]

@ Reference: You can find it under Tifa's mini summary in the DoC profile. It states that Tifa and Cloud have revealed their mutual feelings for each other, and two years later, they're living together.

@ Channy: I'm not using the DoC game, I'm just using a quote off the booklet.

@ Explanation to koibito:
恋人/koibito is a compound of 2 kanjis to make one word, which equal lover. It also uses a word to describe Tifa's role in - at least, Nomura's opinion of her role in the FFVII compilation.