SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Graymouse

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@Maidenofwar

I am glad that Aerith and Cloud got their date during Ch8 and Ch9. I am also happy that Aerith and Cloud fans got to enjoy that particular part of the game. You do bring up an excellent point that I hadn't thought of about the Gold Saucer part of the game. By having Aerith and Cloud have their date earlier in the game it kind opens up a lot of possibilities for other things to happen at the Gold Saucer. Perhaps an Aerith X Zack date...

I can agree with you in what you said earlier about the FF7R Aerith. I do feel that the Devs are putting Aerith's overarching role as a Cetra more to the front of the story. We have already seen her use her Cetra powers already. I can also see how it would make people feel that it is dehumanizing her and putting her on a different life path all together. It seems like she is very heavy with the burden of saving the planet moreso than having a meaningful relationship with any members of the party. She feels defeated in a way, locked into her assumed destiny. I, like you hope that the Devs don't completely remove the human aspect of Aerith's relationship between the other members of the party moving forward.
 
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Maidenofwar said:
Oh wait this thread is alive again!? Okay good that doesn't mean I have to poke the beast myself :pinkmonster:

I had been thinking and I wasn't really sure where to put it but a worst nightmare for me/fear would be that Aerith doesn't have any prominence in the LTD going on because it helps ground and humanise her, I don't want her to just be some sort of exposition/all seeing goddess/avatar of the planet and just a plot device or something, I don't want her just to be above it all so to speak, and just have some kind of detached existence to the party. I hope we get to see human Aerith again.

This is concerning to me because I saw a lot of Clerith stuff from the Ultimania so far and I am very happy with it overall but part of me can't help but think ... what if they made it that so Cleriths have so much food/stuff to enjoy for earlier parts while they can because it preludes the sort of shift that happens with Aerith in later/end game chapters which shift more towards her importance in the overall story/planet/goddess like/special special powers/etc stuff :pinkmonster: which I know also bothers some people even without LTD those who like Aerith as a just a girl and her relationships with other characters not just Cloud, and human emotions, like selfishness, etc and I care about that too.

I'm not sure if Cloud and Aerith even WILL get the Gold Saucer date anymore because the Chapter 8/part of Chapter 9 is played as "precious date" anyway/already.

(edit - and before anyone say what makes you think/say such a thing about Chapter 8/Chapter 9 Cloud and Aerith precious date Maiden how bold/daring of you to say why would - well lots of things of things but including

マテリアルアルマニ 「過去にプレートが落ちたせいで暗鬱とした雰囲気が漂う陥没道路ですが、　エ　ア　リ　ス　と　の　貴　重　な　デ　ー　ト　の　舞　台　でもあるので、流れるBGMを明るい曲調にしてバランスを取っています」 （P142） クラエアデートの認識のスタッフさん有難う


Translated from Japanese by
Material Armani "It is a depressed road with a gloomy atmosphere due to the plate falling in the past, but it is also a dance platform for a precious date with Airis, so make the flowing BGM a bright song and balance it. I'm taking (P142)

The collapsed highway scenes are labelled as a date and scenes from the church are labelled as romantic from where after Aerith suggested the date so :pinkmonster: Along with Aerith saying such things as I'm paying you now, the oh ohhh exchange, and Cloud telling the kid he's on the clock for Aerith, and stuff and yeah.


I also saw some Tifa/Cloti stuff from the Ultimania and I am happy for people, but maybe it is selfish of me to still want contents for both (and even for other pairings too) going forward into further parts of the remake I don't know.

*

I don't know but maybe it would something like if they completely Yunafied Aerith but without keeping the humanising and grounding that Yuna also had with her parties or something.
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I mean pretty much everyone agrees that Cloud has something going on with both girls, so that means he will have moments with them both but I argue that the more Aerith embraces her Cetra side the bigger the distance between her and the others grows, and I think the ending demonstrated that pretty well, when Aerith was completely in her Ancient mode she almost seemed to be another person and her relationship to Cloud felt much more impersonal. I'm sure there will be lots of ltd shenanigans in part II, but if I would guess I say her relationship and feelings for Zack will be a big part of her story arc since they set him up so hard. To be honest I think the ZackxAerith thing will be the big epic lovestory of the ff7 universe:monster:
 
eleamaya

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a_apple 2.0 said:
I'm sure there will be lots of ltd shenanigans in part II, but if I would guess I say her relationship and feelings for Zack will be a big part of her story arc since they set him up so hard. To be honest I think the ZackxAerith thing will be the big epic love story of the ff7 universe
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LTD shenanigans? More like LSD.

Our discord server already naming this thread with LSD, Love Square Debate, not LTD. Even in OG, her story arc included she's trying to move on from his absence. But especially for Remake, we can't remove Zack in this whole debate since he's alive and his goal, whatever timeline would be like, is just one: reuniting with his flower girl. There must be something why Aerith see his last stand before Sephiroth opened the portal. And her last speech in wasteland after they walk past each other, the JP one "The sky, I hate it" (similar to her farewell monologue in FF 30th Anniversary Exhibition which is "I hate the sky because it carries away everyone I love"), blatantly refers to Zack taken to the sky in CC ending (although it's plural and can include Ifalna as Nomura said).
 
KindOfBlue

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Maidenofwar said:
So in some ways she is still just a person that isn't fully aware of everything and her role in it's entirety yet so I hope we get to see still see more of her being a person/human and not just with Cloud but others as long as she keeps living this time as well
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She’s certainly knows a hell of a lot more than she did in the OG especially at the end of remake. But I wouldn’t worry too much, so far they’ve done a pretty solid job with her character (even if she does go full Cetra at the end). I’m glad her and Tifa have a lot more to offer beyond shipping nonsense (which they always did, but it seems certain fans don’t pay much attention).

If they want to really heighten the impact of her death, they’ll definitely have to strengthen her relationships with other characters and not just Cloud, especially with Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII, and I was pretty pleased with how Aerith and Tifa were handled so we’ll see!

Graymouse said:
Perhaps an Aerith X Zack date...
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I don’t know how I feel about having Zack interact with the party, especially in such a friendly way. Cloud damn near had a mental breakdown when Sephiroth showed him a vision of Zack, so I don’t know if Zack being alive will go over too well...

eleamaya said:
LTD shenanigans? More like LSD.
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A fitting name considering how trippy this whole thing is lol
 
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Graymouse

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KindOfBlue said:
I don’t know how I feel about having Zack interact with the party, especially in such a friendly way. Cloud damn near had a mental breakdown when Sephiroth showed him a vision of Zack, so I don’t know if Zack being alive will go over too well...
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The way I see it is why would Nojima go through all the trouble of having Zach survive at the end of Remake not to have a major payout at some point during the FF7 Remake Project. It really seems like a waste of effort in my opinion. Now, don't get me wrong I am not saying that the sole purpose of Zack coming back into the lives of Aerith and Cloud is to close out the LTD. We still don't know how Zack will be tied into the story.

One thing that I feel is that Zack has always been an inconvenient truth to a lot of Aerith X Cloud fans. Simply because the ties with Aerith are very strong. It has been hinted in Remake that Aerith at this point in the game isn't quite over him yet. So, to have Zack not interact with either of the them seems like a loss opportunity.
 
KindOfBlue

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Graymouse said:
We still don't know how Zack will be tied into the story.
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Yeah, they’ve certainly opened Pandora’s box so it can’t all be for nothing. There’s so many ways they could approach this but I don’t know if having Zack be an active party member would work for example considering where Cloud is at this point in his development. Save him for a boss fight at the end maybe?

I’m still in that camp that believes Aerith and Zack will still die. My takeaway from Zack’s survival was that it’s to give us hope that Aerith might live too only for them to take that away when they both die. As far as the LTD goes, maybe they could give them some kind of closure? I dunno, I don’t see it being a happy ending for either of them.
 
eleamaya

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KindOfBlue said:
Cloud damn near had a mental breakdown when Sephiroth showed him a vision of Zack
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When? All Cloud's hallucination is Seph only. Yeah, his head went dizzy when Barret mentioning Stamp and Aerith mentioning Zack's name but there's no vision of Zack whom Cloud ever see yet. Even FF7R Ultimania blatantly confirms that the two Clouds in the ending aren't aware of each other's presence, so neither he's aware of Zack.

Perhaps you're mistaken with Aerith seeing the vision of Zack's Last Stand in expressway? It's still unclear whether it's Seph or the whispers who shows her.

KindOfBlue said:
I’m still in that camp that believes Aerith and Zack will still die. My takeaway from Zack’s survival was that it’s to give us hope that Aerith might live too only for them to take that away when they both die. As far as the LTD goes, maybe they could give them some kind of closure? I dunno, I don’t see it being a happy ending for either of them.
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Me, either.

As couple, it's like a classic tale when a knight left for battle (or sent to war) and the princess is waiting, but he's killed on the way home. But so far, those tales always have closure and we need it for Zack x Aerith.

As character, they serve a traditional hero/heroine role who save a life or save a planet because of their duty as soldier and as cetra then it's paid with their life (although Zack & Aerith are portrayed that they dont mean to sacrifice, they just wanna finish it and come back). What I mean soldier is the spirit and honor btw; soldier is always meant fighting to protect (country/people). I dont think SE change it whatever their death occurs differently from the original.... but maybe, maybe... who knows they're consciously willing to sacrifice to this time IF their survival from the original screw up the remake's universe/timeline.
 
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KindOfBlue

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eleamaya said:
When? All Cloud's hallucination is Seph only. Yeah, his head went dizzy when Barret mentioning Stamp and Aerith mentioning Zack's name but there's no vision of Zack whom Cloud ever see yet.
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I’m referring to the OG, when before Cloud gives Sephiroth the black materia he taunts Cloud by showing him Zack during the Nibelheim incident and he doesn’t seem to recognize him at this point

eleamaya said:
and we need it for Zack x Aerith.
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It’ll be interesting to see if they ever address the idea of Aerith being over Zack and liking Cloud more, since that’s one of those things often brought up in shipping debates
 
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KindOfBlue said:
It’ll be interesting to see if they ever address the idea of Aerith being over Zack and liking Cloud more, since that’s one of those things often brought up in shipping debates
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I never saw it that way, I mean Aerith loved them both. The idea that she loved Cloud lets say 60% more than she EVER loved Zack seems such a childish way to look at the entire situation (not saying that's how you present it, just that I sometimes see people talk about it that way). Aerith started to move on simply because Zack was gone, not because she suddenly realized that; dude she never really loved that nerd lmao :^)
This time the entire situation is different, for one she seems to know about Clouds mental state in a way that makes her consider the feeling he would have for her as "illusion" and secondly the ending throws Zack back into the equation which changes the entire situation in the first place.
 
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eleamaya

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KindOfBlue said:
It’ll be interesting to see if they ever address the idea of Aerith being over Zack and liking Cloud more, since that’s one of those things often brought up in shipping debates
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The one who needs the validation if Aerith loved one man more than another is just Cleriths, same as they want to prove that Cloud loves Aerith more. It's never their problem until Crisis Core, Zack is never a threat before. That's why they need to make Zack look as bad as Tifa; if Tifa is a bully then Zack is a cheater. Idk if you ever read the book Benny wrote but here I copy the lines Cleriths would always use:

I was a little surprised that this village was Zack’s birthplace! Although called my first love, that doesn’t mean that we became particularly intimate.
I encountered him by chance as a flower vendor in Midgar. It was good for a little while, so I thought. A friendly, childish SOLDIER, who even gave kindness to girls.
I encountered Zack and began to think that even a good-natured person was from Shinra.
Therefore, 5 years ago, when Zack departed somewhere on a mission and he seemingly disappeared, I cried considerably. Yeah, I call this first love. Mother got angry at Zack when she saw me like that. That matter made him completely at fault.
At first, when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke… his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack. But Cloud is clueless.

(- Aerith’s monologue in Gongaga. FF7 Kaitai Shinsho)

Actually, Cleriths just throws the last line and forget the rest of the passage. Now, can you still view it the same as how Nojima portrays their relationship in CC? Remake replaces OG dialogue below:

Cloud: Were you two dating? (JP) / Were you two serious? (EN)
Aerith: No, I just thought wouldn't it be nice? (JP) / No, but I like him for a while (EN)
....then you read the old guide book with the passage I paste above. Sure, Aerith undoubtedly loves Cloud much more.

with

Aerith: Pretty, your eyes.
Cloud: It's caused of Mako, all SOLDIERs have 'em.
Aerith: Yeah, I know....
....then you watch or play Crisis Core, you think she loves Cloud more?

Zack and Cloud come to Aerith's life in different timeline, it's like you just meet a new love after your first lover died.... it's simple like that, no matter how short her time with Cloud compared to Zack, it's still a romantic feeling she holds when she dies---every moment, every minute matters. So yeah, she loves two men in her life; it's human being, it's normal. But we can't say she loves the guy she's a friend within 2 weeks more than the guy she periodically dated with mutual feeling for 1.5 years then kept waiting for 5 years till he dies. It doesnt make sense. And because she can maintain her selfhood after death, she can keep loving Cloud as well as the first guy at her side. Personally, I think her love essence for Cloud turns from romantic into mother love in AC, a love that doesn't demand a requital.

So..... nope, they would never address the idea of Aerith being over Zack and liking Cloud more in Remake.
 
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eleamaya said:
It doesnt make sense. And because she can maintain her selfhood after death, she can keep loving Cloud as well as the first guy at her side. Personally, I think her love essence for Cloud turns from romantic into mother love in AC, a love that doesn't demand a requital.
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Yeah I would agree, their relationship definitely changed when AC roles in, I mean you can always argue that maybe some past feelings are also involved, but having Cloud call her mother and then later have him put the buster sword, which he used as a memento for Zack, in Aeriths flowerbed kinda makes it hard to believe that there are any romantic feelings left
 
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KindOfBlue

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a_apple 2.0 said:
This time the entire situation is different, for one she seems to know about Clouds mental state in a way that makes her consider the feeling he would have for her as "illusion" and secondly the ending throws Zack back into the equation which changes the entire situation in the first place.
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Yeah, the combination of her awareness of Cloud’s mental state, her seemingly being aware of Cloud and Tifa, Zack being alive, and the “you can’t fall in love with me” line doesn’t seem to bode well for the Cloud x Aerith end that some wanted, but we’ll see.

Speaking of that line, people seem so caught up in the “you can’t fall in love with me” part and the “don’t I get a say” that they kind of gloss over the “even if you think you have, it’s not real” part. Like, sure she could be saying that because she knows she’s going to die, but how would that knowledge make Cloud’s feelings “not real”?

Not that I think Cloud doesn’t actually like Aerith but I think it makes more sense that she’d be referring to his mental state. I dunno, different translations seem to vary on this subject:

https://game8.co/games/Final-Fantasy-VII-Remake/archives/286914
Especially during the resolution scene in Chapter 14 where she says “But whatever happens, you can't fall in love with me. Even if you think you have... It's not real.” Those who are familiar with the original will understand the weight behind her words.


Nojima: Honestly I got a lot of pushback for putting that line in. Apparently some of the staff thought she might seem like she's looking down on Cloud. If we work under the assumption that Aerith knows the future then it's a powerful line, but if not then the meaning changes completely.
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https://aitaikimochi.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F616804865416527872
—In particular, during the nighttime flower field scene in Chapter 14, Aerith tells Cloud “You can’t fall in love with me. Even if you do, it’s not real.” For those who are familiar with the original story, this line carries a lot of meaning.

Nojima: To be honest, some staff actually told me that this line made it seem like Aerith was looking down on Cloud, so it got rejected a few times. If you know Aerith’s fate, then this line would really pull at your heart strings, but if you did not know what happens to Aerith, then you might interpret the scene in a completely different way.
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I don’t know which one is more accurate but I interpreted something different from both of them.


eleamaya said:
Idk if you ever read the book Benny wrote but here I copy the lines Cleriths would always use:
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Yeah, that book is why I’m not entirely sure what Aerith feels since I know whether or not the book is canon is a topic of debate as well. I just don’t know why they’d write Aerith saying she loves Cloud more if it weren’t actually the case. Not that I think it’s impossible either, just unlikely given all the info you brought up about Crisis Core.
 
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KindOfBlue said:
Not that I think Cloud doesn’t actually like Aerith but I think it makes more sense that she’d be referring to his mental state. I dunno, different translations seem to vary on this subject:
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It's probably both, I mean at this point we don't know why she thinks what she thinks but my guess is that she knows that Cloud's current personality is dissociated from his real self, and that the feelings he develops in this state are questionable(to her at least), so since she knows that and since she knows that she will die soon she tries to put a stop to all of this so she doesn't make her death harder for him.

I also think from the way how she acts around Tifa and from the way how she reacted when she saw her flower in the bar scene with Marlene, that she seems to know about Clouds feelings for Tifa and vice versa, I mean like Maiden style of knowing so that's why she suddenly acts almost non competitive in regards to Cloud's affection even though og Aerith had a lot more of that love rival thing going on.
aerith bar smile.jpg
 
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Eerie

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Maidenofwar said:
I also saw some Tifa/Cloti stuff from the Ultimania and I am happy for people, but maybe it is selfish of me to still want contents for both (and even for other pairings too) going forward into further parts of the remake I don't know.
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Eh don't worry, I think at least here everyone agrees that Cloud and Aerith had their date during chapter 8, and that it's natural for cleriths to want more clerith scenes in the next game - and I honestly think we will have some!

a_apple 2.0 said:
I also think from the way how she acts around Tifa and from the way how she reacted when she saw her flower in the bar scene with Marlene, that she seems to know about Clouds feelings for Tifa and vice versa, I mean like Maiden style of knowing so that's why she suddenly acts almost non competitive in regards to Cloud's affection even though og Aerith had a lot more of that love rival thing going on.
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You know, I stopped at that scene because it was really interesting in how Aerith reacted to the flower. As we can see in your screenshots, the first thing we see is that Aerith is more and more blurry as the focus turns on the flower and then as the focus comes back on Aerith, we see her making that face; and I can't help but think that Aerith's feelings as she discovered the flower on the counter were as blurry as she was shown, before showing grace and acceptance.

When I think about her resolution, I also see her trying to put some distance between herself and Cloud, because she has had that moment of acceptance. But that doesn't mean that she won't be able to prevent herself from getting closer to Cloud either in the future, or that she'll be able to keep him at arms length. We'll also have to see if she becomes aware that Zack is alive somewhere and what she'll do about it, because it seems that at the end of the first part of the game, she's still very deeply in love with Zack, even though she tries to move on.
 
eleamaya

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KindOfBlue said:
“you can’t fall in love with me” line doesn’t seem to bode well for the Cloud x Aerith end that some wanted, but we’ll see.
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This is what I said days ago, that after the resolution, I haven't found Cloud possibly developing his feeling yet. Ofc he has nice lines that he'd be coming for her or felt he's called, but it's still near the resolution. There are a few different dialogues from Cloud's mouth between JP and EN when the trio is infiltrating Shinra HQ, but I forget... Cloti and/or Clerith shippers have better lens, I'm Zerith lol. So, what I mean is the events when and after the two reunite because Aerti and Cloti take the spot. He finally meets the girl he's coming for but why the first person he sees when he opens his eyes in Aerith's room is Tifa? Why doesnt he react when Aerith is surrounded by the whispers in her room? And there's also no line equalizing OG jail scene when the two are flirting despite him being in the same cell as Tifa.

KindOfBlue said:
Yeah, that book is why I’m not entirely sure what Aerith feels since I know whether or not the book is canon is a topic of debate as well.
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Kaitai Shinsho is the first guide book released in the same year as OG. Like Maiden Who Travel The Planet novella inserted in Ultimania Omega, there is also a Diary Entry of the characters (or people refer it as "Dismantled") inserted there which I paste the Aerith part in Gongaga above. The novella and the diary entry inserted there are written by Benny Matsuyama, but the guide book/ultimania is credible enough. Benny also wrote several diary entries and novella inserted other FF Ultimanias although he's never involved in the development as well as FF7. For example in FFX, he wrote two novellas inserted in FFX Ultimania Omega and FFX2 Ultimania Omega, but the only non-game material that is canon is the ones written by Kazushige Nojima 10 years after the game, FFX2.5: Eien no Daisho and FFX: Will, even if it gets negative reception because Tidus and Yuna break up in the end.

What Benny wrote is a kind of fanservice or official fanfiction, don't you think? People can differentiate his work from canon material in other FFs, why the FF7 one can't be treated the same? The way Aerith loves Cloud MORE than Zack written in two Benny's materials is OOC. If you think she could, then she must also love Elmyra MORE than Ifalna. No, Aerith is capable to love two guys and two mothers who one has passed away before meeting another.
 
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Maidenofwar

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Thank you for all the replies everyone, maybe I will try and give more of a response sometime but a lot has happened recently including all which go on during last week with the election etc, but for now I just want to say thank you, and especially to Graymouse, eleamaya, and Eerie, thank you so much for saying things like Cloud and Aerith had a date, glad they had it, it natural for Clerith to want to have more, that you think they might have some, and that even after resolution there are still some little moments, and I think it is good there is still some little moment for CxA to take solace or something in after c14 even though it is not as centric/big/focused/something as it might have been at other times (for me it is really the non verbal exchanges, like the silent looks, etc they share that stick out as them maybe still sharing something or maybe there still being something there some, though of course as far as non verbal go I acknowledge it exist for CxT too and they have plenty), thank you again for all your kindness and assurances, I really appreciate it, I hope there is more content for everyone to enjoy, for all of us different shippers here, I hope none of us have to hungry in future content to come and that we all get a meal to enjoy to walk away with!
:kittyhug:
 
eleamaya

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The person who translates those pages just used a translation app, so idk why she makes statements whether the context is romantic or not.
But since I'm a Zerith shipper, I'm curious about Aerith's page only.
KindOfBlue said:
What say you all?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325876833762553857
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The context of Zack being special to Aerith uses 存在 / "sonzai" (being/presence/existence) not "hito" (person). I wonder if "special existence" means differently from "special person" or if it was deeper. But it's consistent with CC Ultimania (The destined encounter with Zack makes them become the irreplaceable existence to each other ~Aerith's profile) and FF7 10th Anniversary Ultimania (The existence of the girl, who had earnestly come to love Zack with sincerity, eventually became irreplaceable to him ~Zack's profile).

Existence... special existence, irreplaceable existence,
this may also explain their relationship post-death because technically they're just a spirit or memory existing within the lifestream.

And SOLDIER!Cloud persona ironically removed Zack's existence. For 5 years and more, no wonder Aerith has hard times moving on.
 
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Graymouse

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Eerie said:
I laughed and shrieked away at that theory. Seriously, if someone thinks FFVII is about a tragic love story I'll just have to laugh. It's not even about Cloud and Tifa's love story and we know that is how it all started. God I just... wtf did I just read.
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I agree with you. Some seem to forget that it was Cloud's love for the brown haired, ruby red eyed girl next door was what set the stage for everything that happened thereafter. It begins with Cloud and Tifa and it is only fitting that it should end with Cloud and Tifa.
 
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