I've been thinking about it for a while. Maybe it's just that we don't have an accurate English equivalent for the k-word - I'm pretty sure we don't because whenever we translate such abstract/subjective ideas, nuances always get lost on the way. Anyway, I'm inclined to say that Aerith does love Cloud, but it's not the "I want to put my face on your face in a sexy way" kind of love, but rather "I want to live my life and have you in it". It's more of an attachment in terms of shared experience, emotional links, and support, but sadly, most people tend to interpret everything through the lens of romance.She did call Cloud the k-word though in Japanese.
Maybe it's just that we don't have an accurate English equivalent for the k-word
So what is the debate about in this exactly though? I have finished watching the youtube videos of the compilation and AC:C and I don't see why this is even still a debate. Aerith is dead, Tifa is not. It is either Tifa or nobody, why is there so much polarization about this?
I've been thinking about it for a while. Maybe it's just that we don't have an accurate English equivalent for the k-word - I'm pretty sure we don't because whenever we translate such abstract/subjective ideas, nuances always get lost on the way. Anyway, I'm inclined to say that Aerith does love Cloud, but it's not the "I want to put my face on your face in a sexy way" kind of love, but rather "I want to live my life and have you in it". It's more of an attachment in terms of shared experience, emotional links, and support, but sadly, most people tend to interpret everything through the lens of romance.
From what I gather, it’s either “sweetheart”, “beloved”, or “lover”, and out of all of those, “lover” in English has a more explicitly romantic or physical implication and since Cloud and Aerith never actually make it that far even if they do like each other, I’m more inclined towards “beloved”. Either way, both Tifa and Aerith are described with that word at some point so I feel like that particular argument is a stalemate.
I also noticed some people bringing up the description of Cloud’s feelings for Tifa discovered in the Lifestream being “dim”/“faint”/“fleeting” etc. Does anybody have any insight into how best to interpret that? Because people who point this out don’t seem to also recognize several quotes from the same creators talking about Cloud and Tifa confirming mutual romantic feelings for each other and the quotes about Cloud living happily with Tifa afterwards. I was surprised that posters in the Reddit thread I posted rarely referenced them because that’s generally how these arguments seem to go.
Not that I don’t think Cloud had feelings for Aerith and vice versa, but I really don’t buy into the idea of Cloud wanting to live happily with Aerith in the afterlife or something. Hell, I don’t even believe in Zack and Aerith being together in the afterlife. They’re dead...maybe.
That’s interesting because I’ve seen years worth of posts from a certain infamous Cloud x Aerith shipper (you know the one) insisting on the word “fleeting” suggesting that Cloud’s feelings for Tifa lasted for a short time and went away. Doesn’t really match up with all the other quotes about Cloud and Tifa co confirming their feelings match under the Highwind so I wasn’t sure if “fleeting” was accurate. The other possibilities seem to make more sense but I want to be as impartial as possible.IIRC, the kanji involved means "hard to see" and while dim might be appropriate, hazy or fuzzy might also work, since it is mentioned in the context of recovering repressed memories.
I thought everybody becomes part of the Lifestream and Cetra can hold off on returning to the planet for a bit?Aerith's ghost is still kicking around watching over people, and Zack is kicking around with her to help out because why not I guess.
I think the most rabid participants of this debate are obsessed with proving that there’s some kind of “winner”, so they’ll do anything possible to prove that he only likes one, or likes one more than the other, or that only one pairing was the “intended” couple (whatever the hell that means).
Unless the remake shows Cloud settling down with one of them without any room whatsoever to pretend it’s totally platonic, this will keep going on. Hell, even after they do it, there will still be debates. People will claim it doesn’t count and they’ll demand some kind of change because they don’t like the outcome (why does this scenario sound eerily familiar?).
LMAO, did you seriously bring a crap that said FF7 is a love story between Cloud and Aerith? I can't believe it. Even if Cloud and Aerith in OG have a romantic narrative to push the tragedy of her death, we still don't say FF7 as a love story. It's so cheap.I must say, there’s some rather...interesting takes in this Reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/jrjw3u
I'm not contradicting myself when I posted this:According to the thread above, Lifestream White confirms Aerith moved on from Zack but I’ve never read it myself so I can’t speak to the accuracy of that claim
Zack and Cloud come to Aerith's life in different timeline, it's like you just meet a new love after your first lover died.... it's simple like that, no matter how short her time with Cloud compared to Zack, it's still a romantic feeling she holds when she dies---every moment, every minute matters. So yeah, she loves two men in her life; it's human being, it's normal. But we can't say she loves the guy she's a friend within 2 weeks more than the guy she periodically dated with mutual feeling for 1.5 years then kept waiting for 5 years till he dies. It doesnt make sense. And because she can maintain her selfhood after death, she can keep loving Cloud as well as the first guy at her side. Personally, I think her love essence for Cloud turns from romantic into mother love in AC, a love that doesn't demand a requital.
FYI, in Japanese, "koibito" doesn't have to be a mutual lover, it can be onesided and you even can call your KPOP idol you love as "koibito" as well, so translating it always depends on the context. Actually, Japan people use "boifurendo / garuufurendo" more for mutual lovers (and in an active relationship). So far, there are four "koibito" lines ever mentioned in Compilation, I put it by story timeline order:From what I gather, it’s either “sweetheart”, “beloved”, or “lover”, and out of all of those, “lover” in English has a more explicitly romantic or physical implication and since Cloud and Aerith never actually make it that far even if they do like each other, I’m more inclined towards “beloved”.
Lifestream has no concept of afterlife, your soul and memory are decomposed into it as well as your physical body is decomposed into the soil. As for Zack and Aerith, given the context of "special/irreplaceable existence" describing them in Ultimania and Guide Book, the presence (stay by his/her side) whatever the form it is, is all the matter.... until they're completely merged into the Lifestream as they choose to. And as new life is reborn from Lifestream as well, heck, they might've turned into the flowers blooming in all wasteland by the time Cloud and Tifa die old.I really don’t buy into the idea of Cloud wanting to live happily with Aerith in the afterlife or something. Hell, I don’t even believe in Zack and Aerith being together in the afterlife. They’re dead... maybe.
According to Case of Lifestream White, yeah, Aerith can maintain her selfhood because of her being a Cetra. The devs never explain about Zack so far, only that aside from Cetra, Aerith found fragments of consciousness she's familiar with (and that's pitifully a few in number so it must be including Zack). I guess Zack has potency like Sephiroth since he must have a strong will to help Planet as a hero would do, but he already accepted his fate and has been absorbed. So when his love, Aerith, needs assistance in lifestream, and his bestfriend, Cloud, needs assistance in upper world; he could reform himself from fragments to the man we know appeared in ACC. But it won't be long. If Sephiroth isn't returning to threaten the Planet anymore, if Aerith herself is also ready to be a part of Lifestream, Zack undoubtedly will follow.I thought everybody becomes part of the Lifestream and Cetra can hold off on returning to the planet for a bit?
For the confused:only one pairing was the “intended” couple (whatever the hell that means).
The feelings are mutual in both cases, which is why people resort to arguing about who he loves more. The difference is one of them doesn’t go far enough for those feelings to be expressed and the other one does. Can’t really argue about who he ends up with since one of them is disqualified from that point. And considering Aerith left enough of an impact on Cloud for him to feel guilty about her years later, it gives people enough room to interpret the story as Cloud pining for Aerith while living with Tifa.Wait so this is basically who Cloud actually loved more? I mean ok, there is only one in the story where it was confirmed the feelings between the two were mutual, that should of deaded the arguement right there.
From what I gathered, we all mostly seem to be on the same page even if we have our own preferences, so I figured the thread would be more interesting (at least, about as interesting as this tired debate can be, anyways) with some hot takes. ?LMAO, did you seriously bring a crap that said FF7 is a love story between Cloud and Aerith?
I must say, I expected WAY more romance from the way people would discuss this game online years before I played it myself. I won’t say it’s unimportant because it definitely has a purpose but there’s soooo much more than that, as I’m sure we can all agree.we still don't say FF7 as a love story. It's so cheap.
Yeah, a few people imply that Cloud and Aerith was “supposed to be” or “intended to be, but I’m like if that was true, they’d be together!Now, if some people use this expression to mean "true", then it's wrong. It only means the author or authors wanted it in their story.
And considering Aerith left enough of an impact on Cloud for him to feel guilty about her years later, it gives people enough room to interpret the story as Cloud pining for Aerith while living with Tifa.
The feelings are mutual in both cases, which is why people resort to arguing about who he loves more. The difference is one of them doesn’t go far enough for those feelings to be expressed and the other one does. Can’t really argue about who he ends up with since one of them is disqualified from that point. And considering Aerith left enough of an impact on Cloud for him to feel guilty about her years later, it gives people enough room to interpret the story as Cloud pining for Aerith while living with Tifa.
I feel like On the Way to a Smile should’ve been IN Advent Children especially “Case of Tifa”, it would’ve certainly made up for some of the movie’s weak characterizationI think this is partly why they made AC:C; not for the LTD in itself, but for Cloud - he's the one they made the Complete version for, because they saw that people misunderstood their work, and they didn't like that.
The devs have said that Cloud likes them both and that they both like him, how strong those feelings are is up for debate I suppose. I do think people overestimate how deep Cloud and Aerith’s relationship is because to me, the tragedy of it is that they could have gone deeper but don’t get to.That's the thing, when has it ever been said that Cloud has mutual feelings for Aerith.
wewSo I’m just chiming back in because apparently, the person who started that Reddit thread that I posted here then tweeted it at what I presume is some kind of shipping account (I try to avoid Twitter as much as possible precisely because of stuff like this and I only ever lurk Reddit occasionally):
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Then another account that I see almost every time I happen to look at anything FF7 related on Twitter retweeted it:
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I’m just really confused, what exactly do people gain from this kind of thing?
Does... this person know that they aren't real people?totally not a fanboy or a shipper said:i wish the best for cloud and aerith
We’ll see where they go with this and I would hope that this time, things are a lot more definite. I don’t even care what they make more definite, just something.
@KindOfBlue I ran into that particular tag a couple of times, when I dared to go on the cesspool called Twitter when FF7R was first released. That particular Twitter user is hardcore, almost on the borderline of obsession with Cloud X Aerith. I would steer clear of it for you own sanity. Besides, I wouldn't worry too much about what they say anyways. They just like to get people who have different opinions than their own all riled up. It isn't worth your time or energy.
Luckily, we have a lot of Cloud X Aerith's on this forum that like to engage into a respectful conversation and value other peoples opinions than their own. I am always thankful for that.
I’ll try to tread a lot more carefully...I’d definitely mute these kinds of accounts if I had a Twitter but since I don’t, they just pop up when I search for FF7 related stuff by the hashtagsI would steer clear of it for you own sanity. Besides, I wouldn't worry too much about what they say anyways. They just like to get people who have different opinions than their own all riled up. It isn't worth your time or energy.
I’m just really confused as to why these kinds of shippers have to go out of their way to prove they “won” something, like damn, is it not enough to just appreciate whatever you have without misrepresenting the story to win Internet points?Luckily, we have a lot of Cloud X Aerith's on this forum that like to engage into a respectful conversation and value other peoples opinions than their own.
For Square, I don’t think it was ever about picking one pairing over the other because contrary to popular belief, the player doesn’t actually get to decide what Cloud’s feelings are, just his actions. The devs talked about the novelty of having two love interests so I figured they wanted to tell two love stories (and I use that term lightly).I'm just tired of that lazy brand of storytelling, and pick your own adventure. Pick a side stick with a side don't play the fence on it. I won't hold the original FF7 accountable for it because it was released in the 90's, but I'm with you Square needs to pick one in the remake.
What exactly is the basis for establishing a “canon” ship anyways? Because everybody seems to have their own idea of what makes a ship “canon” and something tells me not everybody can be right.If the creators of this game came out tomorrow and said 'Claerith' is the canon ship guess which one I would ship, REGARDLESS if I feel she is a good fit for Cloud personality wise(I don't feel like she is).
Interesting. I’m still learning about the “lore”, so to speak, of the FF7 fanbase and it’s more...eccentric characters. My morbid curiosity makes me really interested in learning about some of the more colorful members of the fanbase you guys have dealt with as longtime fans, but it’s probably best not to open that can of worms.If I am not mistaken, that is another on again off again member of the forums who is I think done with her section ban by now.
What exactly is the basis for establishing a “canon” ship anyways? Because everybody seems to have their own idea of what makes a ship “canon” and something tells me not everybody can be right.
It was more of a rhetorical question about criteria, but sure! Like me for example, I dunno if I would say I have criteria per se but I tend to be one of those who prefers to draw clear lines between canon and headcanon. I guess a better way to phrase the question would be, what does a pairing need in order to be considered “canon”?Are you asking me what are my criteria or what is the purpose?
Edit: I still think both of these girls can do better than Cloud too; hell if Tifa and Aerith hooked up they would be better for each other. Look at Cloud in AC:C? You think if Tifa woulf have died instead his relationship dynamic with Aerith wouldn't have been like the one he had with Tifa? Hell it probably would have been WORSE honestly.