SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Stiggie]

Because I’m still a pretty new fan, I’ve yet to really understand when and how the LTD got this bad over the years. The only other shipping war that was this intense that involved something I’m a fan of was with Naruto, and much like here, I never understood why that was such a big deal either. I could understand liking or preferring a pairing, but denying where the story goes is where I get confused. I respect a lot of crackshippers more for this reason since the nature of crackshipping means you kind of have to accept that it’s not really a thing, but you still just have fun with it anyways.

I’d really like to know how people interpreted the love triangle before the Compilation, interviews, ultimanias, etc. as I think the OG by itself does allow a lot more room for interpretation. I also wonder how much the nature of the LTD would change if we ever do get clarification for some of the things I mentioned earlier in the thread, namely if Cloud’s feelings for Aerith only exist as part of his fake persona or if they were at least in part influenced by Zack, or if Cloud’s guilt in Advent Children has anything to do with romance, or what Cloud and Tifa’s official relationship status is before, during, and after Advent Children. The remake is probably the last chance to remove any room for doubt or uncertainty regarding romance, but I’m fine not having every single answer to every possible romantic question especially if ultimately doesn’t add anything to the story.

I can't speak for others, but while playing the game originally I was a lot younger and played it more superficially. I thought Aerith was the love interest while playing, but changed my mind later on, although I never really got into the deeper meanings and themes. That was just superficially what I figured the story was about.

In general I think the opinion was much more mixed back then, and generally more on the side of Clerith, although I wonder if the same was true among more mature and hardcore fans. Even then I think the people who took the time to actually think about the themes probably came to a different conclusion than the general public.

Anyway, over the time the balance has consistently swung more towards Tifa, and I think that's part of what made the LTD so heated. It's not just that Cleriths feel like their favorite pairing wasn't the one to win out. But I suspect they feel like their favorite pair WAS winning out, and that it's being taken away from them. Losing something you have has been proven to be more painful than simply not getting something, even if the value should logically be the same.
They feel like history is being rewritten, not only are Clotis (and SE) saying that Tifa and Cloud are now the canon pair, they feel like we're retroactively saying that this was always the case, and the things they loved about the game were actually always not there.

There is an added element that makes this so divisive, and it's Aeriths death cementing uncertainty. Usually it's clear who a protagonist loves more either during the story, or because they end up with someone in the resolution.
Perhaps the favorite one dies, but in those cases it's obvious that they WERE the favorite. Not so with the LTD. Not only does Aerith die, but then afterwards it's revealed that actually Cloud loved Tifa all along, so that comforting certainty that he's only with Tifa because Aerith is dead, doesn't exist.

So there is an extra layer of argument there that prevents people from just letting it rest. HAD there been zero doubt that Cloud loves Aerith more, had it been clear that Tifa was second choice, then Cleriths wouldn't be so offended at the idea of her and Cloud being together I think.

 

[Cat on Mars]

When I played the OG I was totally uninterested in romance and I found everything about it a chore. Reading what Aerith had to say about his first boyfriend was boring and I hoped Tifa had something more interesting to tell Cloud than a love confession. You guys can imagine how vindicated I felt when Tifa's story was more complex than it seemed and what she wanted to tell Cloud was the biggest plot twist of this game.

For the record, I never believed Aerith would be the definitive love interest. It was all too rushed, too good to be true and too out of place; her death only made clear she was never meant to be someone that would be by the hero's side until the end. She had other stuff to do, something that actually enriched her character: she was the last Cetra, that's why she was important. In my opinion, it's always been unfortunate that developers wanted her to become an object of affection using romance, because it was unfair to her character. All the date mechanics, all her "I'll pay you with a date!", "I owe you a date!" rubbed me the wrong way, and I'm glad the Remake isn't trying to pull the same shit and drag her date for too long.
They made the right call here.

So after the loooong lifestream sequence and the Highwind scene, I simply accepted Cloud and Tifa were the intended pairing and Aerith wasn't intended to fill Tifa's role and vice versa. I never questioned who Cloud loved more because I couldn't care less.

I'm sure shipping wars were already a thing 20 years ago, the difference is that internet was very different back then and it was easier to keep yourself out of it and not even hear about this fandom's shenanigans.

 

[KindOfBlue]

They feel like history is being rewritten, not only are Clotis (and SE) saying that Tifa and Cloud are now the canon pair, they feel like we're retroactively saying that this was always the case, and the things they loved about the game were actually always not there.

This fascinates me because a lot of the more defined aspects of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship seem to come from later supplementary materials, and while some may look at that as evidence that Cloud and Aerith was the “intended” pairing, I think it’s a more authentic reflection of how real relationships form: maybe things aren’t so clear at first but they become more clear over time. I think it’s a brilliant contrast to the more idealized Disney style romance with Cloud and Aerith, though I don’t think the creators were ever trying to make a statement as to why one pairing is “better” than the other either.

I guess it always amazes me how some of the most poignant art results from happy accidents. At this point, I’ve seen a lot of fans explaining what they think the creators’ intentions were (which evidently, means everything and nothing considering how wildly different people’s opinions are), but I wonder just how much of the romantic themes were intended from the start, how much of it was worked in later on because it just happened to fit the story, and how much of it is fan interpretation.

 

[Eerie]

I don't think the romantic aspects in FFVII are that important to the story. You can play and miss a whole chunk of it - only a very few are very noticeable. For example, a lot of players have missed that, at least until the second date, Aerith projected her love for Zack onto Cloud - probably because Zack was a late addition and they couldn't fit everything they wanted about him in the game. So Remake is correcting that. But to me it's more that a good story also have romance because it is human nature, so it is shown. It's like Agatha Christies' detective stories; you're here for the murders, but there are almost always love stories nested in the stories.

Speaking of Aerith, you remember this promotional image?

​

Many of us wondered, and thought they didn't want to spoil the Highwind which is in the OG promotional image:

​

But, after reading a comment on reddit about how the poster didn't think that the promise Aerith makes with Cloud to fly the Highwind will probably not happen... And reflecting what the Remake has shown, so far... yeah this is probably one of the reason why the Highwind isn't shown (the other being that effectively, the Highwind isn't part yet of the story so it would confuse new players). Maybe another picture will be made for the next part, but what's interesting to me is that both girls' pictures for the OG (Aerith and Tifa) represent their promise with Cloud. And this time around, we get Tifa's promise with Cloud as it was in the OG, but we also get Aerith's promise with Zack - that he will take her to the upper plates so she can look at the sky. It also makes me think about Remake's ending, with Aerith staring in that sky that she hates because it has taken away her beloved persons.

It's really interesting to me how this promotional image reflects the changes we have seen in Remake, with Aerith unable to move on from Zack and still thinking about him by the end of the game. Well, not the changes but rather, showing more of the original intent, which was always a little bonky with Aerith IMHO - so many people missed that she truly loved Zack, and that Zack loved her deeply too.

 

[Edley]

TBH Zack was a cipher character until Crisis Core. He was originally created to do was be the key to the mystery of Cloud's identity and literally doing the legwork of bridging the backstory and the start of the game. I don't want to call OG Zack a plot device, but he's not much more than that. Crisis Core created the narrative of a bonafide romance between Aerith and Zack, gave him a proper characterization and motivations which remake looks poised to delved deeper into.

There is no LTD without Zack and yet LTD shouldn't continue with Zack sticking around (if that ends up happening).

VII is one of those epic tales where there's mystery, action, comedy, drama, revenge, philosophy, and romance all taking turns in a giant hodge-podge. Oftentimes it feels like a bunch of different threads competing with one another, but when it works it works. IMO Clerith is counter-intuitive to the second half of the game.

 

[eleamaya]

^
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That's what makes Clerith shippers feel robbed out from tbh. Although Cloti promotional material came later started from AC, Cloti has been a definite relationship since OG and there will be no patchwork of how they're portrayed in the story even in FF7 Remake. Cloti is always what it has been intended no matter how Cleriths view and deny it. But Crisis Core who came late, not only to Cleriths but also to general players, change what we view about Zerith from OG (and Dismantled), Before Crisis, Maiden Novella, and Advent Children. I believe Zack & Aerith is intended to truly and deeply love each other before the tragedy as @Eerie pointed out above but there's really an inconsistency in how the compilation portrays this pairing.

Lemme give you an example of one contradiction. We can say that Dismantled isn't written by the devs so part of Gongaga monologue that mentions how Zack & Aerith meet when she's selling flowers isn't relevant anymore, and not canon. But in BC, Aerith is selling flowers using basket on the upper plate around December 0001. CC makes not only it's Zack's idea for her selling it, (April 0001 when they first met) but Aerith just started selling flowers after Zack built a wagon for her right before he went to Nibelheim (September 0002). BC and CC are directed by the same person, Tabata, and written by the same person, Nojima. Well, Nojima said on CC Ultimania interview page that he bind Aerith's characteristics to Zack as much as he could. But, isn't it indeed a retcon? BC also shows Zack flirts with a female Turk (Shotgun) even after meeting Aerith by timeline but CC portrays him more loyal/serious/intimate as he never flirts with Cissnei anymore (even in a bikini!) and asks her to go doing something while he wants to call Aerith. Since there's no Zerith interaction in BC, the chart doesn't show any relationship arrow between 'em despite the same timeline as CC and CC chart point out arrow that they have a crush/favor on each other.

CC sets the foundation of Zack & Aerith romance and affects other materials. Not gonna lie, despite more addition of Zack's scene for Cloud, Nomura removed Aerith's presence watching Cloud in AC's credit roll and replace it with flowers blooming on Zack's death spot and his sword moved to Aerith's church in ACC post-credit roll. Normal viewers who aren't hardcore Cleriths and have played CC would interpret it's how the two are finally together symbolically after all the tragedies that separated 'em away. And now with the same director who decided to upgrade AC to ACC because of Zack/CC, FF7R is the chance to "retcon" OG!Zerith. It already happens in Evergreen park where they replace Clerith's dialogue about Zerith isn't serious (NA translation) or never dated (JP line) with Aerith speaks Zack's name and tries to reminiscence his eyes through Cloud's as to how CC depict Zerith's date in the same place. So, if part 2 gave any Zerith moments as flashback through Aerith's POV, maybe in Gongaga, it would follow CC and there's also a chance Aerith wouldn't say a line that Zack might run with another girl. It can change one portrayal in OG: Aerith is never denial about Zack, neither she's denial about their relationship in the past nor denial about his death. She tries to move on because of his death and she indeed senses it as Cetra; not because they weren't serious/never date in the past and she thinks he possibly ghosts her for another girl that makes Cloud a "better" man/option. So, if he returned, they'd be back together no matter how many years she waits. That's how strong her love is and it's hardly possible for the players (not hardcore Cleriths ofc) to think she loved Cloud more than Zack for just in 3 weeks even if she's trying to move on and still genuinely loves Cloud despite one-side like how Case of Lifestream depict it with line "koibito/more than friend, for she had loved". Aerith's resolution also seems to have foreshadowed it, that whatever her feeling for Cloud, she wouldn't expect to be requited or have no desire for reciprocation. A lithromantic.

What we dunno and hard to speculate is if they could reunite in life as FF7R plays with both Zack & Aerith's fate. Again, whatever happen with Fate/Destinty, Cloti wouldn't be affected and FF7R just shows what if there's no affection mechanism from Cloud towards both girls that Cloud leans more towards Tifa as how it's intended in OG, how it shows Cloti more obvious. But Zack & Aerith, as a separated character for their role (along with Sephiroth) and a pairing, is the one being rewritten as if CC isn't finished writing 'em yet. Even if she died again, the reason you would cry isnt because you're attached to her through Cloud's lens as possible love interest. And I can get if Cleriths were mad at this.

 

[Torrie]

I wonder if it's been covered or I'm another slowpoke seeing things between the lines *thick pink tail wiggles*

After a long chain of events, I re-watched the scene in the remake where Cloud is talking to his mom, and she says:

“You know, there's all kinds of temptations in the big city. I'd feel a lot better if I knew you'd found a good girl—one who'd make sure you didn't get into trouble. An older, more mature girl that could keep you on the straight and narrow—and tell you when you're being a silly goose. That's the perfect type for you, I'd say.”

I remember that this scene in the OG always made players think it might be a nod to Aerith because Cloud gets the first flashback about his mom while staying in Aerith's house and everything, but the modern wording actually makes me think a lot of Tifa, so one case of ambiguity less. I mean, Tifa always makes sure that Cloud is safe, sound, and grounded. She saves him physically in part 1, and we can only look forward to her saving him mentally as well in the Lifestream in whatever part to come. And okay, Tifa isn't older than Cloud technically, but Cloud has a 5-year-long mental development gap, so you see what I'm getting at. And “mature” reminds us instantly of the default mature dress she's wearing in Wall Market.

No conclusion, it's just that I found the parallels amusing.

 

[Eerie]

@Torrie: People definitely noticed this, especially since when he wakes up, Cloud has starry eyes but is still in one of Aerith's rooms, which makes it a little suspiscious to shippers, since normally he wouldn't be able to get such lighting - as a reminder of the starry sky of the promise.

@eleamaya: this is funny to me, because one of my friends told me point blank that even though she always adored Aerith, she could never ship clerith because she understood right away that she was still hung on her ex-boyfriend. And I remember reading in one of the Ultimania (I think it is the 10 years anniversary) that Aerith projected her love for Zack onto Cloud, which makes me think that the OG wanted to convey this idea but mainly failed it.

I also feel that Aerith's role has changed as a whole, and as a result, that her position in the LTD has also changed; in the OG she wasn't connected to her lineage and her powers until late in the game - her telling Zack's parents that her ex-boyfriend had run away was probably her denying the reality of him having died. Her discovering it all was her arc, as well as accepting them and understanding that she needed to fight for the planet.

Here, she is obviously already very connected to her role and her powers, and she is made aware of Zack's fate by the end of the first part. This may affect how she acts towards Cloud in the next part(s), but with her seemingly understanding a lot of the cloti bond, this will be likely lessened compared to the OG at this point - although I have said it, there will be more clerith because I think there are some light hints towards it, even if doom-coloured (sorry for my clerith friends). However, her arc is not discovering and accepting her powers anymore, she already knows that she has to fight. There is also a possibility of Zack being alive in another timeline that can come and mess up things too. I wasn't joking when I said that I sometimes felt that Zack was Nojima's gift for Aerith - he gave her what he saw as her perfect counterpart, this is why he tied them so much and why it shows in Remake. I do see why some clerith are recoiling when they see the narrative, especially if they thought that clerith was canon in the sense "Aerith is the girl Cloud will always love and loves more than Tifa" but I would like to say that even in the OG, that was not the story told. In hindsight, it's easier to tell, but the story was always the story of life and death and how you overcome death.

 

[leavingformidgar]

Came across this vid earlier today, wondering if anybody’s ever watched it?

I left a message on it, describing how funny it was. If you need to drag a character down in your "logical scientific analysis"... I can't take you seriously. Seriously. Seriously. Am I repeating myself? Seriously. This video is a joke. A bad one at that.

 

[eleamaya]

@Eerie
Yeah, Zack is Aerith's perfect counterpart even if we doesnt use romantic term for them. They're kinda the martyrs of the story as tragic hero and heroine.

We know Tifa tells us that Aerith never intend to sacrifice herself as she talks about future more than anyone else. But in 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Zack is also described as "Zack, who continues to fight againts his fate, keeps talking about future with bright expression, but..." See, Zack never intend to sacrifice himself either. In FF7R, both of them would fight against the fate who has written their death. Because to live the life they wanna life is a freedom. They already gain it against Shinra (the battalion that ambush Zack and the city & headquarter that imprison Aerith), the point is the place where they're shown passing each other in ending. But, would they really also gain it against fate although the whispers have been defeated? Would they escape it? What if in the end, despite the will to keep living, they'd have no choice but have to make a sacrifice for the planet and the messy timeline?

Both of them also protect Cloud and wanna go back when it's over (Zack obviously still need to see Aerith). Yep, if you see Cloud's dream in Gongaga when he met Aerith in the forest, she went to handle Sephiroth alone because of Cloud's broken mind as he was controlled in Ancient Temple and beat her. Their death moments also show they're fulfilling their duty, Zack keeps his honor as SOLDIER who protects the people behind him, and Aerith as Cetra who save the planet to protect the livings. Remember Nojima said Aerith's duty is too big for Cloud even if she lives as it could give Clerith a problem as couple. But If Zack had been living, there would be no other than him who completely understand what duty and responsibility is. They could travel together over Gaia to keep fulfilling that.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I do have a hard time imagining Aerith advancing towards Cloud at this point considering the possibility that she’s aware of his addled mental state as well as possibly being aware of some history between Cloud and Tifa. Narratively, it still makes sense that Cloud would develop feelings for Aerith even after being told he can’t fall in love with her, especially since at this point in the story we’re not supposed to know about Cloud and Tifa until the Lifestream (and neither is Cloud) but how these feelings measure up against one another is yet to really be seen.

Hypothetically, what would have to happen in order to properly “end” the LTD? I know some feel that it ended already, but I mean without any room to argue. Because the goalposts seem to shift depending on how one defines “winning” a shipper war or how one considers a ship to be “canon”.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Hypothetically, what would have to happen in order to properly “end” the LTD? I know some feel that it ended already, but I mean without any room to argue. Because the goalposts seem to shift depending on how one defines “winning” a shipper war or how one considers a ship to be “canon”.

Any notion that there is a winner when the contest is being romantically entangled with Cloud('s problems) is a contradiction in terms.

 

[Eerie]

Well, there are hints towards the HA highwind scene, so I guess we're going to get that (in both Tifa and Aerith's resolutions, at least in English for the Aerith version, and definitely visually for the Tifa resolution). I guess we'd need to see some embrace or kiss for people to have to admit that something is happening, but the goalpost will probably be "if Aerith was alive, things would be vastly different" so I feel this LTD will never end

 

[minami758]

Hypothetically, what would have to happen in order to properly “end” the LTD? I know some feel that it ended already, but I mean without any room to argue. Because the goalposts seem to shift depending on how one defines “winning” a shipper war or how one considers a ship to be “canon”.

I guess we'd need to see some embrace or kiss for people to have to admit that something is happening, but the goalpost will probably be "if Aerith was alive, things would be vastly different" so I feel this LTD will never end

Hey y'aaaaall it's been a minute.

LTD will never end because shipping isn't logical, it's emotional. Once you get attached to something, it's very very hard to let go, lol. Earnestly speaking, I think a kiss between Cloud and Tifa would be enough to convince casual/neutral players of the status of their relationship, but of course there will always be denial and conspiracy theories from the most die hard Clerith fans. That's just how shippers be.

I guess the only way to throw the hammer down would be for Cloud to say some cheesy shit like, "It's always been you, Tifa," but no one's expecting that to happen, so.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud deadass moves in with Tifa, they are repeatedly spoken of as having started a family together, Nojima described them as a troubled couple in crisis, Barret and Cid certainly think they're a couple and Nojima repeatedly discusses them in the context of a romantic couple. Nojima even admits a romance with Aerith might go better for Cloud but he's with Tifa.

But the LTD rages on because some don't like the answer and they haven't had an over the top romantic scene like Yuna and Tidus making out underwater

So space for ambiguity remains. No concrete affectionate moments creates that space.

 

[Stiggie]

Cloud deadass moves in with Tifa, they are repeatedly spoken of as having started a family together, Nojima described them as a troubled couple in crisis, Barret and Cid certainly think they're a couple and Nojima repeatedly discusses them in the context of a romantic couple. Nojima even admits a romance with Aerith might go better for Cloud but he's with Tifa.

But the LTD rages on because some don't like the answer and they haven't had an over the top romantic scene like Yuna and Tidus making out underwater

So space for ambiguity remains. No concrete affectionate moments creates that space.

I never like the whole "things would have gone better with Aerith" quote. I think it's taken out of context, the way I read it is the exact opposite, that it might have gone exactly the same with Aerith. People also use it to imply that Tifa and Cloud simply don't work and that it has nothing to do with Sephiroth, which also doesn't fit the context as I see it.

first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith.

What I read there isn't that Cloud and Tifa would simply have always have had problems, I read that as specifically talking about the external problems Cloud is facing within the movie. Had the remnants not shown up, and Cloud not gotten Geostigma, they'd still be having problems. Which is true, because the problem Cloud is facing is his guilt and his feelings of failure. I don't think for a second that line is meant to mean "had sephiroth never existed and Aerith not been killed and Cloud and Tifa just came together naturally they'd still be having problems".

Then that's followed by a sentence that basically reads "maybe it would have gone better with Aerith, maybe it wouldn't have, it's useless speculation".

 

[Eerie]

I guess the only way to throw the hammer down would be for Cloud to say some cheesy shit like, "It's always been you, Tifa," but no one's expecting that to happen, so.

He does say cheesy shit in CoT tho lol.

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud became very quiet for a moment.

“Because I have you this time.”

“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,”

But people either aren't aware of CoT, either are quick to dismiss it. Right after the game, it's Cloud who's Tifa's pillar, who makes sure she's going to be ok.

Nojima even admits a romance with Aerith might go better for Cloud but he's with Tifa.

To pinpoint it, he said there would also be troubles with Aerith because of her Cetra role lol. It's only natural that couples go through hurdles; that is how you grow stronger together. And Nojima knows this well. Yet it's Cloud and Tifa whom he's sure are going to be where they belong, together by the end of the movie. But we all already went through that too. As others said, it's an emotional bond to the pairing rather than a logical approach that makes it still alive to this day.

 

[Stiggie]

But people either aren't aware of CoT, either are quick to dismiss it. Right after the game, it's Cloud who's Tifa's pillar, who makes sure she's going to be ok.

I've had a 100 plus reply discussion with a dude about basically this topic, it drove me mad, he claimed that Cloud didn't give a shit about anyone besides Aerith and his only "evidence" for this was the fact that Cloud was unhappy (which isn't even accurate).

I literally gave him heaps and heaps of direct developer statements explicitly stating that he was happy and that he cares about everything, Tifa specifically, but he just straight up ignored it. That's what they do, they simply ignore evidence that doesn't agree with them.

When I show a statement showing Cloud being happy, they don't take that into consideration, or see it as proof that they're wrong about Cloud being unhappy, they actually use their a priori belief that Cloud is unhappy to prove that those statements are false.

In the case of that sentence, he simply asserted that Cloud was lying to Tifa, his evidence being that he WASN'T ok. As if failing is the same thing as lying, and as if failing means you don't care.

It was extremely messed up and honestly insulting to the point of bigotry to everyone whose ever suffered from mental illness, this implication (wasn't even an implication, he basically straight up said it) that depressed people simply don't love, or even care about, the people around them.


I still get mad just thinking back on that conversation, I've never seen such a 2-dimensional and nuance devoid opinion on human behavior, it's sick.

 

[Cat on Mars]

It was extremely messed up and honestly insulting to the point of bigotry to everyone whose ever suffered from mental illness, this implication (wasn't even an implication, he basically straight up said it) that depressed people simply don't love, or even care about, the people around them.

Well that's an unsurprisingly common sentiment.

People think that depressed people are boring and a burden. We aren't fun to be around and we know it. We don't deserve relationships, we are damaged goods and we should just die already because we won't be happy forever so what's the point? Shippers are just laying it on thick because they are talking about characters but it's what everybody thinks about depressed people anyway. We fucking know it.

And then they wonder why the fuck depressed people kill themselves.
edit:typo

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What I read there isn't that Cloud and Tifa would simply have always have had problems, I read that as specifically talking about the external problems Cloud is facing within the movie. Had the remnants not shown up, and Cloud not gotten Geostigma, they'd still be having problems. Which is true, because the problem Cloud is facing is his guilt and his feelings of failure. I don't think for a second that line is meant to mean "had sephiroth never existed and Aerith not been killed and Cloud and Tifa just came together naturally they'd still be having problems".

It's more "even had Sephiroth not come back they would still be having problems." With or without Sephiroth and geostigma post-FFVII, they both had nigh-crippling insecurities and difficulty communicating because of the vulnerability opening up necessitates.

Well that's a unsurprisingly common sentiment.

People think that depressed people are boring and a burden. We aren't fun to be around and we know it. We don't deserve relationships, we are damaged goods and we should just die already because we won't be happy forever so what's the point?

I'm reminded of the observation I read (from someone, somewhere, somewhen) that the general sentiment about marriage is that if a couple who were together for eight years (during a period of their mutual development when they needed each other) get a divorce, then this marriage is a failure, even if both people were mostly happy throughout the marriage, the parting was amicable, and both come out the other side of it stronger than they were before going into it.

On the other hand, if an old person dies after 50 years in a mostly loveless, miserable marriage that they didn't believe they could leave for x, y, or z reasons, we eulogize it as a successful marriage. It becomes a success the moment when one of the unhappy participants dies before a divorce can occur!

As someone who has been both divorced (but considers it a successful marriage) and is medicated for depression, the parallels stand out to me.

We have a hard time culturally (maybe as a species even?) reckoning with the inescapable truth that there is no such thing as "happily ever after." There is, at best, "happily ever after until [occurrence] -- and even then, probably only if you work at cultivating and maintaining said happiness until [occurrence]."

People develop, change, and die. Unforeseen tribulations like economic hardship or physical and mental illness come. All things, happiness and unhappiness alike, happy and unhappy marriages included, exist in a state of impermanence.

If you think about this ongoing state of commutability in life, it's truly appropriate how FFVII depicts death as an ongoing state of transmutability as well.

 

[minami758]

He does say cheesy shit in CoT tho lol.

Yeah, I totally get that and I agree that Cloud does say some romantic stuff in CoT, but unfortunately most people either don't know the novellas exist or twist other parts of them to fit their narrative.

I'm saying like, to really hammer the nail down, that cheesy shit has gotta be said in the remake game itself. And I personally don't see that happening, but who knows, maybe they'll surprise me — I wouldn't be mad, lol.

 

[Odysseus]

@The Twilight Mexican what does divorce have to do with depressed people being overlooked?

Yeah, I totally get that and I agree that Cloud does say some romantic stuff in CoT, but unfortunately most people either don't know the novellas exist or twist other parts of them to fit their narrative.

I'm saying like, to really hammer the nail down, that cheesy shit has gotta be said in the remake game itself. And I personally don't see that happening, but who knows, maybe they'll surprise me — I wouldn't be mad, lol.

You might get what you're after in the remake version of the highwind scene. That's the first place I think Cloud could really open up in that sort of way. I wonder if they'll maintain the ambiguous "did they do the sex?" aspect of that scene.

 

[Eerie]

I wonder if they'll maintain the ambiguous "did they do the sex?" aspect of that scene.

How was that ambiguous lol. Tifa transforms into a puddle when she realises they've been seen, and Yuffie is like "wow, Cloud is really different today!" hahaha.

 

[Odysseus]

How was that ambiguous lol. Tifa transforms into a puddle when she realises they've been seen, and Yuffie is like "wow, Cloud is really different today!" hahaha.

"""Ambiguous""" lol.
I'm sure some people argue that it either didn't happen, or that it's OpTiOnAl but we all know.

 

[Eerie]

I'll admit that's why I enjoy the fact that there are hints of HA Highwind versions being shown both in the Tifa and Aerith resolutions. Since it'll probably happen a whole game after Aerith's death, they won't have to bother and probably make it not optional anymore. Especially since after the Lifestream scene, you don't get a say in who Cloud loves - and honestly, we got very little to say about it in Remake too. It's amusing to me that the determining choice, in the end, is who Cloud wakes up first in the sewers.