SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
That's extremely insightful. Probably explains why even when making an effort, it becomes extremely difficult to not start feeling contempt for a view of the situation you don't agree with.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
@eleamaya your post is the reason why I said cloti and zerith worked in a similar fashion lol. Also same types of characters are paired up - charismatic and sunny vs shy and introverted. I don’t ship zerith though but I can see what Nojima did with them. I might ship them later depending on what they give us on that front.
And Tres I have noticed a trend in the new cloti fandom, is that they have a bad time accepting that Cloud was attracted to Aerith and started developing a crush on her. A lot think it’s dead but they’re going to be disappointed as it will probably continue to develop. That’s the problem we face because cloti is canon and Cloud has always loved Tifa, in the end. But during those few weeks his feelings were muddled and there was this other attractive girl who also counts a lot for him.
Also:
Seems that the cloti fandom who noticed that he expected more was right lol.
And Tres I have noticed a trend in the new cloti fandom, is that they have a bad time accepting that Cloud was attracted to Aerith and started developing a crush on her. A lot think it’s dead but they’re going to be disappointed as it will probably continue to develop. That’s the problem we face because cloti is canon and Cloud has always loved Tifa, in the end. But during those few weeks his feelings were muddled and there was this other attractive girl who also counts a lot for him.
Also:
Seems that the cloti fandom who noticed that he expected more was right lol.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
Seems this is why some of them rely on Zerith reunion to get Aerith away from Cloud so bad. The one who is louder and more demand about it on Twitter, as I observe, ironically isn't Zerith fandom. Even when Trace of Two Pasts was announced, although we hope it contains Zerith content, we just calmly wait and see, unlike those who scream "It must be about Cloti AND Zerith!" I dont like this behavior though, 'cause it's what makes Clerith cult mock us as "Zerith is just Cloti in disguise".
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It's a bit sad, because if you're somebody who believes in soul mates and finding a one true love who will never, in the course of your long life together, ever look at another person or feel affection for someone else, you are destined to be very disappointed.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
I think the creators have said everything that they can about either pairing being valid, whatever way the story goes. I think the careful chemistry constructed around both girls in Remake is indicative of that.
That said, I do think the weird harem tropes of the OG are outdated and kinda off putting. Remake still leans into that more than I really like it to tbh. I'd be okay if they completely cut the Yuffie date altogether, by that metric. Or at least, lampshade it by making it comedically unromantic.
For that reason - I do appreciate the new novel emphasizing the more definitive lens, even though they've been doing that sinceBoruto Advent Children. I only hope/expect it to be more hammered down going forward. idk it's just silly to be that invested at this point, given that the Compilation follows shounen tropes more staunchly the longer it goes on. Naruto liked Sakura, but ends up with Hinata. Kenshin loved Tomoe, but she dies and he ends up with Kaoru. It's just how the chips fall, and it's kinda weird to be so invested after the fact.
The shipper shit is bleeding into my twitter feed, and I barely follow any FF7 accounts apart from some people here (granted I don't follow that many people on twitter, so that's probably why). It's weird to see it still have that same kind of force. Even though other fandoms from a similar time period that had equal-worse shipping wars have mostly moved on, FF7 is like some awful herpes that always manages to find its way back to my social media algorithms.
That said, I do think the weird harem tropes of the OG are outdated and kinda off putting. Remake still leans into that more than I really like it to tbh. I'd be okay if they completely cut the Yuffie date altogether, by that metric. Or at least, lampshade it by making it comedically unromantic.
For that reason - I do appreciate the new novel emphasizing the more definitive lens, even though they've been doing that since
The shipper shit is bleeding into my twitter feed, and I barely follow any FF7 accounts apart from some people here (granted I don't follow that many people on twitter, so that's probably why). It's weird to see it still have that same kind of force. Even though other fandoms from a similar time period that had equal-worse shipping wars have mostly moved on, FF7 is like some awful herpes that always manages to find its way back to my social media algorithms.
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Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Is that not how it was in the original anyway?
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
I got the impression that Yuffie is into Cloud in the OG scene. I was thinking more along the lines of a hard no coming from her.
If there's any girl that's gonna be an honest contrarian and tell Cloud he's a gross loser, it'd probably be Yuffie
If there's any girl that's gonna be an honest contrarian and tell Cloud he's a gross loser, it'd probably be Yuffie
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It would be funny if she jumped to the conclusion that Cloud had fallen in love with her awesomeness and she needed to make it clear that she could never return his devotion, and he's like, "Wut?"
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I think the biggest problem with the LTD is that the goal post has shifted. It used to be which girl Cloud ends up with, but now it’s which is his true love because it’s very clear that he ends up with Tifa.
And that is a highly subjective matter, especially more so that we do have our bias about which girl WE prefer.
However, I will say it: a lot of cleriths think that clerith is a love that trumps it all, the biggest love story in FFVII. But, that’s not true; to me and probably a part of why I ship the two dorks that are Cloud and Tifa, is that it is the big love story written in the stars. It begins with kids crushed when they are kids, evolve into love, go through separation and trauma, reuniting but with him messed up, and her sticking by, choosing to believe in him and pushing him forward before finally helping him restoring his mind - and let’s not forget how she stuck by him when he was at his lowest. And then you learn that him joining Shinra etc. was all because of her, that they are on their way to try to save the planet because of that love story. And I see so often the claim that clerith is this big love story that I have to ask if they really looked closely at what is being told there, on the romance side. Because I am quite sure that cloti is this intense, big love story that trumps everything (yes reddit and twitter have triggered me, sorry for the rant ?).
And that is a highly subjective matter, especially more so that we do have our bias about which girl WE prefer.
However, I will say it: a lot of cleriths think that clerith is a love that trumps it all, the biggest love story in FFVII. But, that’s not true; to me and probably a part of why I ship the two dorks that are Cloud and Tifa, is that it is the big love story written in the stars. It begins with kids crushed when they are kids, evolve into love, go through separation and trauma, reuniting but with him messed up, and her sticking by, choosing to believe in him and pushing him forward before finally helping him restoring his mind - and let’s not forget how she stuck by him when he was at his lowest. And then you learn that him joining Shinra etc. was all because of her, that they are on their way to try to save the planet because of that love story. And I see so often the claim that clerith is this big love story that I have to ask if they really looked closely at what is being told there, on the romance side. Because I am quite sure that cloti is this intense, big love story that trumps everything (yes reddit and twitter have triggered me, sorry for the rant ?).
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Why's there a need to turn it from Yuffie being an awkward dork and asking him out when he's not into it to Cloud being a pedophile?I got the impression that Yuffie is into Cloud in the OG scene. I was thinking more along the lines of a hard no coming from her.
If there's any girl that's gonna be an honest contrarian and tell Cloud he's a gross loser, it'd probably be Yuffie
I'd probably remove any notion that it's a romantic scene at all and just have it be a b o n d I n g experience or something. Or what Lic said. That's funnier.
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Yep - it's probably why some Clerith cannot see Cloud with Tifa because the feeling of contempt for her as a "fan service with just boobs and no character" is so strong. And why some Clotis can't see Clerith because the squick factor of getting with your bestfriend's (who died to save you) girl violates the biggest of bro-codes. Again, based on personal value systems.The Twilight Mexican said:
I dunno why people look so hard into the affection mechanics of FF7 as indicator of canon tho. I just recently fired up FFX again in conjunction with the 20th anniversary, and I got Lulu to ride on my snow mobile. Whoo! My game guide says she's the easiest to get high affection scores for, but she still dumped me for Wakka. And the game still forced me to snog Yuna. It was against my will. I even explicitly told Lulu she was my typelooneymoon said:
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
"The squick factor of getting with your bestfriend's (who died to save you) girl violates the biggest of bro-codes."
Who better to take care of the woman you loved than the best friend you died to save? This seems very romantic to me, not squicky at all.
Who better to take care of the woman you loved than the best friend you died to save? This seems very romantic to me, not squicky at all.
Dr Frasier Crane
Lv. 25 Adventurer
That’s a great shout, Licorice. We should be precise with language. Shipping is a more purposeful and emotional activity that individuals in fandoms engage in. Trekkies have been shipping Kirk and Spock since the original Star Trek fanzines in the 60s, I believe. Anything less than that passion is less than shipping. “Pairing”, as you put it. Some people see Mulder and Scully kiss in The X Files and think: “Hm, that’s cool.” But it was the shippers who were posting on Usenet and writing into magazines about how they wanted to duo to make kissy faces at each other. Still, I would describe the bad faith astroturfing that some fans as engage in as “shipping” (e.g. shipping Zifa) - it’s just shipping in service of another ship, an obfuscated objective: to reinforce their OTP (e.g. Clerith). In that thought process there is a pretty emotional and passionate motivation at its core.I really like that post, Dr Crane. I wanted to make sure I said that first.
I don't believe one can ship anything out of cynicism and convenience.
Ship is in the heart.
If you're not feeling it, you're not shipping it.
If there's no conviction behind it, it's merely a pairing.
As has already been said, this is excellent insight and is definitely true of myself and I’m sure many others too. I like relationships where one or both participants long for one another; where words go unspoken and silences are pregnant with meaning. I like shy and thoughtful heroes that struggle to communicate and get what they truly want. I like love that is won through struggle and change - when people are forced to become better versions of themselves to get what they truly want. That’s why I like Cloud and Tifa; many of Jane Austen’s protagonists, but especially Anne Elliot and Captain Wentworth in Persuasion (and dear god are the cloti parallels numerous); and that’s why I still feel raw for my man Junghwan who loved Deoksun so much but just waited too damn long. (Shout out to any K-drama fans reading this.)
An interesting parallel I saw online recently is that quite a few cloti people seemed to be rooting for Eren and Mikasa from Attack on Titan as the manga came to an end, while Clerith types seemed to be rooting for Eren and Historia. Once again, another property I know nothing about, so I can only offer surface-level analysis, but aesthetically the ships seem to be similar to cloti and Clerith. Definitely another approach to drawing those Venn diagrams Licorice first mentioned.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
That's exactly the reason Zack/Aerith/Cloud become my OT3. It'd be perfect if Tifa didnt exist because real Cloud had always been loving Tifa haha.
But maybe those who oppose this idea watch too much Pearl Harbor lol, it gives bad taste.
There's a better JP movie with WWII setting about a soldier who opposes kamikaze because he wanted to return to his wife, but in the end, he decides to protect his pupil and ask him to take care of his wife.... and this story makes me bawl.
Also, I think Zack/Aerith/Cloud is close parallel to Chappu/Wakka/Lulu, too bad Cleriths spread their propaganda that it's like Seifer/Rinoa/Squall.
Btw, I want to add one that is very similar to SOLDIER!Cloud dynamic without having an alien cell in your body. This comes from 90s soccer manga that wins Kodansha Awards for best shounen, the title is SHOOT! The manga was ongoing in 1990-2003 (37 volumes) but it also has a prequel, sequel, spin-off, and live-action.
The story is about the main character becomes the legend's successor/legacy. Toshi (16 yo) admires Kubo (17) and idolizes him so he studied in Kakegawa High to join its soccer club. Kubo is the captain, and a talented player with a bright future whom Japan media predict would become a legendary football player since he joins a junior team of a football club in Germany because his parents worked there. As his family returned to Japan, many school wanna recruit him but he prefers to be the founder of his own team in a school that has just been established. Well, he's idealized but also wants more freedom. In his first year, the underestimated team reached semi-finals of the prefecture qualification. Popular and getting attention from the media, Kubo is everything Toshi wanted to be. But Toshi is just an awkward dork despite his talent.
Anyway, Kubo has a girlfriend he had dated since first grade, Minako, a playful girl who would like to take Toshi's hand and drag him to accompany her in the cafe whenever Kubo is busy with his fangirls. Meanwhile, Toshi has a crush on the club's manager, Kazumi, but he never could admit and show it (anime turn them into sweet childhood friends though). Instead, their relationship is more like bickering close friends. And actually, she also feels the same. They are slow-burn romance.
Just a few months after Toshi joined and trained, in summer tournament, Kubo died too young because of leukemia. The manga just reaches 8 volumes of 37! He didn't tell anyone on the team about his illness, he didn't listen to his doctor to stop playing football, and sometimes he cried alone in the club room knowing his life is short. He died shortly after making a goal to goal and pass 11 players from the opponent team in semifinal to make a draw 2-2, giving the team hope, and he trusted Toshi to make a goal in the last 10 minutes with the deadly shot he had trained him. The team wins their first prefecture semifinal but they lost their beloved captain. Still grieving, they can't play properly in the final next day and lost by score 7-1. The smile Kubo gave Toshi right before the semifinal match and asked him "Toshi, do you like soccer?" is something he would remember forever.
The team slowly moves on and prepares themselves for winter tournament. But when Toshi is given Kubo's jersey, number 10, he doubts himself and feels the weight is too heavy for carrying Kubo's legacy. Kamiya, Kubo's bestfriend and also the new captain, tells Toshi this is Kubo's decision before he died. But he's too nervous because the media set a high standard about him since Kubo becomes a legend and he isn't ready to be compared with Kubo. In the first match in the tournament, the team wins 7-0 but Toshi, as center forward, doesn't make any goal. Kazumi tries to support Toshi genuinely but it never ends up well. Minako, then fills this blank.
With how Minako handles Toshi, he starts to get attracted to her. She told him that he and Kubo are similar in how they pursue their dream and passion for soccer and she gets why Kubo picked Toshi as his successor. Minako tries to make Toshi believe that he can be like Kubo. But... she also always go on date with Toshi in the place she dated Kubo and gives Toshi cola after club because it's Kubo's favorite drink although Toshi prefers Pocari Sweat. Though, after few meetings, Toshi becomes more confident and cocky that he can do everything Kubo did in the field. At first, in few matches, it works and the team is happy. Only Kamiya reacts indifferently about it.
At this point, I think this is similar to SOLDIER!Cloud copying Zack's mannerism and 'become' him... with Aerith attracted to Cloud because of their similarity and miss Zack so bad.
And finally, Toshi makes blunders because he always tried so hard to copy Kubo's technique, become Kubo. But Kamiya saves the team. After match, he's angry at Toshi and punches him because this is not what Kubo meant Toshi to be as a legacy, that he and Kubo is a very different person in the field, that he should trust himself and be himself. Realize his mistake, Toshi meets Minako and tells her to not meet him again. And he says sorry because he isn't Kubo. She cries and realizes her mistake too, admitting that she feels very lonely because Kubo is gone.
Skip the story, Toshi ends up with Kazumi. The compilation of SHOOT ends with Toshi becomes a player in Real Madrid and win a match in World Cup against Germany (not a final though haha).
I'm interested more with Kiyosato/Tomoe/Kenshin though. The way Tomoe slowly loves Kenshin (although she has agenda to get revenge for Kiyosato's death) is similar to how Aerith falls for Cloud (although it's started because she saw Zack in him). The second man gives them happiness. They died shortly because she protected him and handled the enemy alone after realizing their feelings . Kenshin meets Kaoru 10 years after Tomoe died, so it isn't similar to Cloud and Tifa's story.
But yeah, romance in FF7 Compilation follows shounen's trope
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It's funny how the shippers decided being dead was no obstacle to pairing up romantically with someone long before Square Enix decided being dead was no obstacle to coming back to life in the Remake!
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I was talking with a friend and I realised this: this is not bro code, this is typical girl code. It’s really badly seen to go after the guy your best friend is in love with as a girl, you just don’t do that - or await for the bad rep. Most clotis are girls so it suddenly made sense to me (she was telling me she wouldn’t go after a guy if her friend liked him and I realised it was the same for us when we were young too).
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
The real ship was the friends (and enemies) we made along the way I’m pretty sure I’ve used that meme at least two other times since joining this siteI really like that post, Dr Crane. I wanted to make sure I said that first.
I don't believe one can ship anything out of cynicism and convenience.
Ship is in the heart.
If you're not feeling it, you're not shipping it.
If there's no conviction behind it, it's merely a pairing.
This quote from Nojima is pretty telling:
Cloud and Tifa’s romance is one that’s been brewing since childhood and builds up slowly before finally paying off, while Cloud and Aerith’s romance is quick with lots of potential but ultimately gets cut short before it can really go further…the fact that people see these things as contradictory still baffles me lol
I pretty much treat Zack and Aerith the same way I treat Cloud and Aerith, it was cute while it lasted and clearly left an impact but the death is what makes the romance tragic and there wouldn’t be much point to the tragedy if the death didn’t separate them…mind you, I guess Zack and Aerith could have some sort of reunion in the remake but I don’t see them getting a happy ending together any more than I see Cloud and Aerith getting one
He literally became the hero he promised her he would be. I just discovered this game, but I hate the fact people have been arguing over who he may have loved more for 20+ years and instead appreciated the beautiful love story that was in their face THE WHOLE DAMN TIME!
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
I guess Mikasa has some things in common with Tifa, the whole childhood friend + shared tragedy + fitness nut angle. Historia's really nothing like Aerith though, and not an actual love interest; the author took the "oblivious boy" trope way too far while having Eren develop a strong friendship with Historia, so everyone got the wrong idea. Quite the shit show all in all.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Yes - what about the ship in friendship?
Romance is nice and all but friendship in all its forms too often gets treated as the poor relation of relationships.
I would be the last person to object to canon friendships being fanonized into romances, since I do it myself, but I think friendship is fascinating and deserves more respect and attention.
Romance is nice and all but friendship in all its forms too often gets treated as the poor relation of relationships.
I would be the last person to object to canon friendships being fanonized into romances, since I do it myself, but I think friendship is fascinating and deserves more respect and attention.
I noticed the same thing. I read Attack on Titan since the very beginning, for years, and I can tell you that one of those ships (the canon one of course) was obvious literally since chapter one, like the very first page the main characters were introduced. The other ship barely had any interactions throughout the whole story, yet some people where hung up on it.
I noticed too that many of those who shipped the later were doing it because they, for whatever reason, disliked the heroine, and where pleased with the idea of the character suffering a heartache. This is shipping out of spite, and is something sadly common in this fandom too.
I even came up with a theory...
How do you know which ship is canon in a "love triangle" (many times there isn't even one)? When in general, shippers of a certain pairing don't hate the other/remaining character, that's the one.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Sometimes it's the love triangle that's canon.
Yep, so again, its a personal opinion on what is "very romantic" that colors what people see about Aerith / Zack and CloudLicoriceAllsorts said:
Perhaps you might think that when Zack died, he feels he can't take care of Aerith anymore and he'd want her to have someone in her life - and as Cloud's bro, he'd want him to be happy too. And by a stroke of serendipity, she meets Cloud and they unwittingly honor Zack's wishes by falling in love with one another - fulfilling his wish of having his two most loved people be happy. Cool, done well, Zack/Cloud/Aerith will be Shipper A's OT3.
On the flip side, this narrative will not fly in the minds of people who view Aerith as mourning over her lost love, and Cloud pursues her by pretending he's has the exact characteristics of this said dead person. Shipper B's value system i.e. "A relationship shouldn't be based on falsehoods" "I wouldn't date my best friend's ex because of (insert real life experiences)" kicks in and overrides that kind of romantic sentimentality.
(Tifa's not even present in the above two scenarios to complicate matters
)Which is why no matter how many twitter arguments happen, minds won't change because people have pinned their own experiences, their own thoughts of love, what is romantic and what is not onto two characters already.
a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- a_apple
Exactly, that's why the best way to approach this debate is to just go with what you believe the narrative is trying to present to you, just go with what makes the most sense from a storytelling perspective using the shit that is presented to us. Not saying that this will solve anything, but at least people would have a actual debate instead of telling each other why the look character A gave character B means true love because how soft their eyes looked UwUYep, so again, its a personal opinion on what is "very romantic" that colors what people see about Aerith / Zack and Cloud
Perhaps you might think that when Zack died, he feels he can't take care of Aerith anymore and he'd want her to have someone in her life - and as Cloud's bro, he'd want him to be happy too. And by a stroke of serendipity, she meets Cloud and they unwittingly honor Zack's wishes by falling in love with one another - fulfilling his wish of having his two most loved people be happy. Cool, done well, Zack/Cloud/Aerith will be Shipper A's OT3.
On the flip side, this narrative will not fly in the minds of people who view Aerith as mourning over her lost love, and Cloud pursues her by pretending he's has the exact characteristics of this said dead person. Shipper B's value system i.e. "A relationship shouldn't be based on falsehoods" "I wouldn't date my best friend's ex because of (insert real life experiences)" kicks in and overrides that kind of romantic sentimentality.
(Tifa's not even present in the above two scenarios to complicate matters
Which is why no matter how many twitter arguments happen, minds won't change because people have pinned their own experiences, their own thoughts of love, what is romantic and what is not onto two characters already.