SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

If Aerith had lived, I can imagine a scenario in which she and Cloud end up together and a scenario in which they don't.

I can't see that happening with Tifa around (there's a reason why a certain portion of the fanbase has suggested that Tifa might be the girl who dies this time around). But I feel that your scenario would very much feel like TW3 - when you don't chose Yen, actually, it feels *very* wrong. When you chose Yen, everything falls into place - yes, she's the canon outcome, so it explains that, but even when you don't follow that path, you feel really bad for her. While that might have worked in the OG, it wouldn't be the case in Remake because if you truly look at it... they took *off* options. In fact you don't have much choice, LT-wise. What you chose to answer the NPC? It has no importance at all. What matters is the number of sidequests you do with the girls and who you wake up in the sewers. And all the resolutions are canon anyway. You're supposed to get close to both girls, no matter who you chose.

The game doesn't leave us any choice, in fact, over the LT. You're supposed to get *everything*. Cloud hugs Tifa (it's romantic, and it's true Cloud showing up), he listens to Barret before dreaming of Aerith. You get all of this. Even if you skip it, the game considers that it happened anyway. Cloud will say he feels called. Madam M will tell you people have seen a weird guy in Elmyra's garden (or something alike). Tifa will give hope to Leslie with the flower. The game is telling you that all the resolutions happened, whether you want it or not, as the player.

I think fans tend to forget 2 things from the OG that are absolutely all you need to argue for the LTD:

- Cloud tells Tifa that it's only her opinion that counts. At that time it's before he even finds himself back, so that's how he feels regarding both Aerith and Tifa, while his feelings are still hidden. In my first playthrough, I thought he preferred Aerith, but he was suddenly saying something so bold?

- The Lifestream scene is the resolve of Cloud's feelings, the answer to the LT. May you have been paying attention to her or not, it's Tifa whom he loves. I've seen plenty of times some cleriths wishing Aerith would help Cloud instead of Tifa, and I'm like "are you crazy? So that she'd witness how his head is full of Tifa? You want to hurt her that bad?"

With just those two scenes, you should realise that there is no "LT" at all. That cleriths ship clerith and enjoy their interactions (they are cute and made to be enjoyed), and invent AU worlds for them, I have absolutely no intention of stopping them. Shipping should be fun and about enjoying your ship. Should they come and treat like Cloud doesn't care about Tifa, that the only thing he wants is to meet up with Aerith in the Lifestream, that FFVII should be interpreted as an otome game should, is absolutely where I draw the line because... that's not FFVII. That's not the story about loss and how you deal with it. That literally goes against the very core message of FFVII. And these characters are definitely not Cloud, Tifa and Aerith.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

They may be out to kill the LTD, but I really don't think they intend us to believe that Cloud didn't love both women. They are both very lovable, after all. The thing is, he never reached a point where he consciously had to chose between them. He never had to ask himself, "Who will be my partner, this one, or this one?" He may not even have fully realised what he felt for Aerith until after the Temple of the Ancients' debacle, or maybe not even until after her death, when those feelings were compounded and confused by grief and profound guilt. If she had lived, who knows what might have happened? But that's not the story that happened. Tifa healed him, he moved on with her (two steps forward, one step back admittedly), and both of them cherished Aerith's memory because they both loved her.

I agree with this, the remake makes clear that Cloud has romantic feelings for both girls, like people should be able to admit this. Call it love, attraction, a crush, whatever the fact of the matter is that both girls have a deep emotional connection to Cloud while all 3 are thirsty as fuck.
They all would work with each other relationship wise, there is no better or worse. One is very pushy the other is very patient but both are compatible with Clouds persona, hell I think even Jessie would have worked if the other two peaced out for some reason and she turned the teasing down a notch.
The only reason why I would say that Tifa is the "one" for Cloud, is because of his story and because of what kind of character he is, not personality wise but in a narrative sense.

Cloud is someone who struggles throughout the story of FF7 (and even up to AC) with his individuality, that's the point of his story. After what happened to him he doesn't know who or what he really is (and even that fact he doesn't know till much later in the game lol).
He doesn't know where his story starts and where it really ends and if it really is his story, even Clouds feelings are partly sealed off and not "his" anymore. What is a part of him and what is a part of him due to Jenova/Zack/Sephiroth/Mako poisoning?
The only thing Cloud is sure about is to Destroy Sephiroth that's the one thing he knows he has to do, but even that turns in the end out to be all smoke and mirrors, he gets manipulated by Sephiroth and Jenova into pursuing them because of his mental state. Like he does his name truly justice, in a sense there is nothing solid in him, he is a very empty person (dare I say HOLLOW )
So the fact that Clouds feelings for Tifa are from a part of his life back when he was sure who he was and what he really wanted gives her a very unique position in Clouds life.
The fact that those feelings he has for her are so steady and consistent through out his life while also being something so personal and dear to him, gives Tifa a completely different meaning compared to the other girls. Tifa isn't just a love interest anymore, she is the prove of who Cloud really is. And for a character like Cloud who, like I said before struggles so much with his individuality she literally is the perfect match (almost like she was specifically written for this role ) that's why I think the devs keep connecting Tifa with the idea of home. She is literally Clouds home something of a safe harbor, something that grounds him back to reality.

 

[Humming]

'Measuring' feelings is pretty damn hard, specially for a mere observer, but we as players have extra insight on how the characters feel towards others. Did Cloud love Aerith? Well, I think so, but I'm not sure if I would call it a crush, attraction or something which didn't evolve into 'love' yet. At least, as I recently dived into the Compilation, I do think that Cloud 'loved Tifa more'. Or emotionally deeper. I don't really know how to phrase this without sounding simplistic because there's no Cloudy balance to put Tifa in one side and Aerith on the other and see which side is heavier.

But there's a lot of contrast that us players can perceive when it comes to either it's Tifa or Aerith 'his dearest', and it points to a certain girl from Nibelheim. Who knows, maybe things would be different if Aerith was alive and Cloud could develop something deeper like what he felt for Tifa after all those years, but it never happened. Or maybe he would cling onto Aerith only to realize that he loved Tifa, or maybe the other way around. But this didn't happen either.

Anyway, a crush is still a form of love. It may be less developed but it's a start, with Aerith alive it could flourish stronger or diminish after certain events (LS, Highwind, etc.), but we will never know because in life you can never experience every single thing you want to. But it's important to not forget that after Cloud regains himself, it's Tifa, she always was there. So that's another point in the Compilation that makes me feel a bit more certain that he had feelings for both, but much deeper for one of them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Of course, yes, the story could have been completely different if Aerith had been around after Cloud regained himself.
However - and I don't know if this often gets mentioned - Cloud and Tifa were in the Lifestream piecing him back together. Aerith was also in the Lifestream at that time, but she didn't come anywhere near them and was conspicuous by her absence, given that she was floating around in the same ether and presumably knew what was going on with the two of them.

 

[Phantasia]

I would agree that he feel for both if it wasn't for the "fantasy" aspect of the game, you know, the Jenova cells, her mimic and mind reading abilities, the whole Zack "kinda persona but kinda not" stuff, a projection of Aerith or something telling him "don't fall in love with me, even if you think you have, is not real", etc. (And no, I don't think it was to "spare him from pain". There is something wrong going on with him and she knows it).

At this point of the remake I can only quote Aerith voice actress... "He is emotionally unavailable". As for the rest of the story, we already know the "...sealed up secret... wish... Tender memories... no one can ever know". Who unlocked does memories within his heart? Tifa Lockhart.

I just can't go over all this and conclude that this inexpirienced young man, that gets flustered by the slightest amounts of attention towards him, fell in love anybody up until retaining his sence of self, accepting his past. (Not even Tifa, beacuse she, and this of completely my take, is not only the person he holds dear the most after his mother, but she too is the living proof of his failures, hence, those locked memories are all about her).

 

[Odysseus]

Of course, yes, the story could have been completely different if Aerith had been around after Cloud regained himself.
However - and I don't know if this often gets mentioned - Cloud and Tifa were in the Lifestream piecing him back together. Aerith was also in the Lifestream at that time, but she didn't come anywhere near them and was conspicuous by her absence, given that she was floating around in the same ether and presumably knew what was going on with the two of them.

Maiden addresses this, but that's dubiously canon so I'm not sure if it should be considered.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I do think Cloud makes a conscious effort, as much is as possible for him, in Remake to try and get to know Aerith better, asking questions, interested about her past, asking her if she is ok, taking things in and considering them, like language of flowers scene, etc. I wonder to what extent they will continue to explore this, will he continue to try to reach out to her, will Cosmo Canyon scene where he stumbles with but I'm ... we're here for you scene still happen and so on.

 

[Eerie]

There were many scenes that were deleted from the OG, and many more added, so it's really hard to know how the next part will look like because to me, it's practically devoid of romance until pretty much the GS date. So they'll have to fill a lot, and I think both cleriths and clotis should be happy.

 

[Eerie]

Double posting because this is one very interesting point re: the LT(D) in FFVII:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420173037148676099

I reckon this might be the true reason why it's still raging to this day, even though it shouldn't and the story is clear.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Hence why outdated harem nonsense bugs the hell out of me…I would’ve been perfectly fine if the affection mechanics were completely gone if it meant the fanbase would stop mistaking this game for Witcher 3 lol

 

[Phantasia]

Hence why outdated harem nonsense bugs the hell out of me…

I hate them too, but then again, people start ship wars out of thin air...

 

[frosty]

Hence why outdated harem nonsense bugs the hell out of me…I would’ve been perfectly fine if the affection mechanics were completely gone if it meant the fanbase would stop mistaking this game for Witcher 3 lol

And I STILL don't understand why the affection mechanics of FF7R are being hotly debated.
FF's affection mechanics are the most inane thing ever - I also found out that praying in X affects Wakka / Lulu / Yuna's affection. And here I was thinking that I should "pray" in each temple to be polite and respectful in another culture's place of worship lol.
There isn't a real "reward" besides the few extra scenes cos the game eventually forces you in one direction.

Which is why I theorize that a lot of fans of FF7 don't actually play other games, and just read stuff online. If they did, they would have played things like Assassin's Creed Valhalla or even Supergiant's Hades. I went through SO many trips through hell to pick up Ambrosias to give Than/Meg/Dusa, and not to mention the small fetch quests for gifts to win over my preferred option. There's real effort and reward involved in those mechanics.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It was KindofBlue who said that, not me.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Spoil us on the details Eerie

 

[Eerie]

Spoil us on the details Eerie

Are you referring to the post I made in the cloti FC? XD I honestly thought every clerith would have caught on that. This might be also a long rant, description of the LT(D) etc.

There might come a day where she would no longer be ‘the final descendant of the Cetra’. She imagined that scenario in astonishment and fixed her eyes on Tifa. She then flustered ―

I know that it's not mentioned but I felt that Aerith was thinking about Cloud there. She is flustered because she suddenly realises what she's daydreaming about when Tifa is facing her, wondering what's coming next. She's feeling a little guilty there, IMHO. It would also follow the OG script where she does fall in love with Cloud. I have said it way too many times lately, but my fellow clotis are going to be disappointed if they think there will be no clerith in the next game - because it's going to be there.

I mean, in the end, maybe I'm wrong and she's thinking about Zack but honestly? I doubt it. I doubt we'll have any zerith before long - probably in Gongaga next because obviously at the point of the novel she didn't talk to Tifa about Zack? Anyway at this point, she is on the boat for Costa del Sol with the gang, and it's good to put back in context the scene: at that point, Aerith is falling for Cloud - she has to, for the script to be followed. It seems stupid, but it's part of her story, even though I wish she wouldn't because it's going to be heartbreaking for her. And visibly the she who has more knowledge about the future agrees that she shouldn't fall in love with Cloud - it's interesting that the Aerith in her resolution scene seems locked in time and space, that she has access to knowledge that she hasn't usually.

Cloud wavers between both Aerith and Tifa in the OG, and in Remake too. To me the fact that he wavers is the hint that his feelings aren't really deep - if they were deep, he wouldn't be wavering anymore; Cloud's not an arse, he's messed up in the head. At least, for the OG, until Aerith dies, it's like this.

This means that even if Remake is presenting things more bluntly, to say the least, Aerith and Cloud's bond will continue to grow. But that's something I've seen denied by a lot of clotis recently, and I think it's an error, and tbh one made because a lot of cleriths in twitter just reject *anything* cloti (from its canonicity to Tifa's role in the Lifestream, Cloud's feelings, Ultimanias, absolutely everything *is* rejected, which leads to heated convos because one side is clearly not playing fair which pisses off the other side, sorry Maiden but it's true). If you want to know why clotis are pissed, that's why. There's also someone I suspect being a certain someone passing for a crazy cloti who popped up a few days ago and who says outrageous things even though she also likes clerith. I won't say anything, but this one IMHO isn't a real cloti, just FYI.

To continue with a few LT observations I made these past few days with @odekopeko, to me it's very telling that true Cloud does indeed show up for Tifa. Not in the sense of showing up but every time his feelings come through Cloud to communicate with Tifa (like in Alone at Last and in the hug scene). I guess that's how they will avoid the "err but that means all this cloti bond they have been building on is built on lies!" The same way, I could not help but notice that Cloud drew from Zack when he was dancing at the Honey Bee, and that made Aerith have the time of her life. All of this is interesting to look at, the way they're building on the Cloud romance that does parallel his deep confusion about who he is.

I made the comparison, just a few hours ago, that clerith was like the imagery of (perfect) love, while cloti is the actual building of a relationship. It's not really subtle, I think there is even a profile of Tifa where it's stated that she's working with Cloud to become a reliable partner in Midgar (yep, I have found it). And it's true, we can see it in Remake, it's building, even including the hint at Cloud, Tifa and Barret building a new 7th Heaven in Edge.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Are you referring to the post I made in the cloti FC? XD I honestly thought every clerith would have caught on that. This might be also a long rant, description of the LT(D) etc.



I know that it's not mentioned but I felt that Aerith was thinking about Cloud there. She is flustered because she suddenly realises what she's daydreaming about when Tifa is facing her, wondering what's coming next. She's feeling a little guilty there, IMHO. It would also follow the OG script where she does fall in love with Cloud. I have said it way too many times lately, but my fellow clotis are going to be disappointed if they think there will be no clerith in the next game - because it's going to be there.

I mean, in the end, maybe I'm wrong and she's thinking about Zack but honestly? I doubt it. I doubt we'll have any zerith before long - probably in Gongaga next because obviously at the point of the novel she didn't talk to Tifa about Zack? Anyway at this point, she is on the boat for Costa del Sol with the gang, and it's good to put back in context the scene: at that point, Aerith is falling for Cloud - she has to, for the script to be followed. It seems stupid, but it's part of her story, even though I wish she wouldn't because it's going to be heartbreaking for her. And visibly the she who has more knowledge about the future agrees that she shouldn't fall in love with Cloud - it's interesting that the Aerith in her resolution scene seems locked in time and space, that she has access to knowledge that she hasn't usually.

Cloud wavers between both Aerith and Tifa in the OG, and in Remake too. To me the fact that he wavers is the hint that his feelings aren't really deep - if they were deep, he wouldn't be wavering anymore; Cloud's not an arse, he's messed up in the head. At least, for the OG, until Aerith dies, it's like this.

This means that even if Remake is presenting things more bluntly, to say the least, Aerith and Cloud's bond will continue to grow. But that's something I've seen denied by a lot of clotis recently, and I think it's an error, and tbh one made because a lot of cleriths in twitter just reject *anything* cloti (from its canonicity to Tifa's role in the Lifestream, Cloud's feelings, Ultimanias, absolutely everything *is* rejected, which leads to heated convos because one side is clearly not playing fair which pisses off the other side, sorry Maiden but it's true). If you want to know why clotis are pissed, that's why. There's also someone I suspect being a certain someone passing for a crazy cloti who popped up a few days ago and who says outrageous things even though she also likes clerith. I won't say anything, but this one IMHO isn't a real cloti, just FYI.

To continue with a few LT observations I made these past few days with @odekopeko, to me it's very telling that true Cloud does indeed show up for Tifa. Not in the sense of showing up but every time his feelings come through Cloud to communicate with Tifa (like in Alone at Last and in the hug scene). I guess that's how they will avoid the "err but that means all this cloti bond they have been building on is built on lies!" The same way, I could not help but notice that Cloud drew from Zack when he was dancing at the Honey Bee, and that made Aerith have the time of her life. All of this is interesting to look at, the way they're building on the Cloud romance that does parallel his deep confusion about who he is.

I made the comparison, just a few hours ago, that clerith was like the imagery of (perfect) love, while cloti is the actual building of a relationship. It's not really subtle, I think there is even a profile of Tifa where it's stated that she's working with Cloud to become a reliable partner in Midgar (yep, I have found it). And it's true, we can see it in Remake, it's building, even including the hint at Cloud, Tifa and Barret building a new 7th Heaven in Edge.

To me the part about Aerith getting flustered at the thought of having a kid someday is more to highlight her "innocents" like she never even thought of something like that, or at least that's what came to my mind when I read that part for the first time
And I think people are waaaay overthinking the love triangle, Cloud is attracted to both girls. The game shows us that they both are compatible with Cloud. It's really not that big of a deal.
Like I already said why I think Tifa is "the one" story wise, but should she get off'd this time than there is no doubt in my mind that Cloud would end up with Aerith the same way how he ended up with Tifa after Aerith died (I know, I know lets ignore potato Cloud and Mideel for this argument).

 

[Eerie]

I disagree, because Aerith is imagining the situation. If she's imagining then it's probably as a family - someone has to be the father for her to have a child. She daydreams and gets flustered because she realises that what she's dreaming about goes against the interest of her friend who is right in front of her. But she can't help it either. Again, that fits the dreamy element from clerith - it's most probable that Cloud can't have children anyway, as he has been tested on with weird stuff for 4 years.

Because if not Cloud, who else? I keep saying she's been forced to let go of Zack at the end of Remake. She'll probably have other clues about him but probably won't understand them. She has understood that Zack is dead. So, it can only be Cloud.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

someone has to be the father for her to have a child

I kinda pictured it like in that one episode in Eva where Shinji tells Rei she probably will be a good mother some day and she starts to get flustered, it's not like that she imagines herself as the mother of Shinji's child or anything like that it's just a bit of a embarrassing thing to think about.
Like it's a pretty common trope in anime to have girls blush at the thought of "becoming a mom/marrying some day/kissu OwO" I mean it's not that I disagree with Aerith having feelings for Cloud but that scene you are describing doesn't really hit me as a example of that

 

[Humming]

I'm not really into Twitter's shipping tags except from time to time to check some fanart, but I haven't seen many people claiming that were would be no Clerith in part 2. This is a (expanded) remake, after all, why wouldn't have Clerith interactions if the devs intend to follow the OG plot as much as they can?

Maybe it's the excitement for ToTP, idk.

 

[Eerie]

It's not what Tifa says that makes her fluster though, it's that she imagined a scenario in front of Tifa. She imagined that scenario in astonishment and fixed her eyes on Tifa. She then flustered ― to me that's pretty telling. Maybe you're right though, but it struck me as something really clerith.

Oh and also, I doubt Cloud would end up with Aerith if Tifa were to die. Last time he thought she was done for, it propelled him to kill Sephiroth in a fit of rage, which is why Sephiroth doesn't want to attack her directly. If Tifa was to die, Cloud's mind would probably break tbh. She's the one he needs to protect the most, Remake has been pretty clear about it and the Ultimania even points at this scene in chapter 18 where they all think about what they want to protect and Cloud turns back to watch Tifa.

@Humming not everything happens in the tags. I saw enough clotis discussing this to say it happens, and we are talking about clotis who are big names in fandom and who influence it a lot. A lot think there won't be any clerith in the next game. That's contempt. It's not happening.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

to me that's pretty telling. Maybe you're right though, but it struck me as something really clerith.

I don't know, maybe because I'm a anime connoisseur it didn't really hit me as anything unusual

 

[Final_Heaven]

I disagree, because Aerith is imagining the situation. If she's imagining then it's probably as a family - someone has to be the father for her to have a child. She daydreams and gets flustered because she realises that what she's dreaming about goes against the interest of her friend who is right in front of her. But she can't help it either. Again, that fits the dreamy element from clerith - it's most probable that Cloud can't have children anyway, as he has been tested on with weird stuff for 4 years.

Because if not Cloud, who else? I keep saying she's been forced to let go of Zack at the end of Remake. She'll probably have other clues about him but probably won't understand them. She has understood that Zack is dead. So, it can only be Cloud.

I don’t see why Cloud couldn’t. Apparently Hojo was going to breed Aerith with SOLDIERs and Cloud basically went through something similar to SOLDIER but no decaying.

 

[Eerie]

The fact that Nojima gave Cloud and Tifa adopted kids is pretty telling to me that Cloud and/or Tifa can't have kids.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I know what Nojima wrote and it can't be unwritten, but I find it completely unbelievable that at age 22 (I think she's 22?) Aerith has NEVER given a single thought to the question of whether she will ever marry and have children. I do not know of a single woman (or man) who didn't ponder that question multiple times in their adolescence. They may have decided that marriage and/or children wasn't for them, but they certainly thought about it. And Aerith had a VERY SERIOUS relationship with Zack. Am I meant to believe that the idea of marrying him and having children with him never once even crossed her mind? If Aerith was like most girl, she already had her kids' names picked out by the time she was thirteen! The most demure and innocent virgin can still daydream about love, marriage, a little cottage with roses round the door, and kids playing in the garden.

If there is a single person on this forum who can say, hand on heart, that they reached the age of 22 without ever once thinking about whether they'd want to get married/have kids one day, I will eat these words.

 

[Final_Heaven]

The fact that Nojima gave Cloud and Tifa adopted kids is pretty telling to me that Cloud and/or Tifa can't have kids.

I felt that was more to keep it ambiguous as to whether Tifa & Cloud were in a romantic relationship