SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I must admit I was disappointed when they decided to change Zack from a smooth-talking ladies' man to a cute one-woman puppy with lame pick-up lines.

 

[Odysseus]

I was talking with someone about how Zack being a "ladies man" was pretty much an informed character trait and that he never actually acts like it. I guess square was too busy trying to make him da sweetest, most innocent puppy dog around.

 

[Torrie]

I remember watching that truck scene for the first time, which actually was an awful Russian translation of an awkward English translation, so I figured as much as Zack couldn't take Cloud anywhere where they could rest because "mother" lived there too. Like, coming to see someone, who still lives with their parents, with a sick friend in your arms isn't the best scenario after a few years of absence.

 

[eleamaya]

I must admit I was disappointed when they decided to change Zack from a smooth-talking ladies' man to a cute one-woman puppy with lame pick-up lines.

In JP shounen manga, being ladiesman doesnt mean you date every girl around like a womanizer, they all have a special one or treating one woman differently than others despite being flirty to every girl or seek girls' attention. And actually, those are my fave character type because they're funny.
I can mention:
- Miroku from Inuyasha
- Kogoro Mouri from Detective Conan (yeah this guy is married but still.....!)
- Sanji from One Piece
And whenever they flirt with someone, it's always a running-gag as if they aren't smooth-talking ladiesman. So, it's not a wrong portrayal that Zack is also lame in CC. It's Shounen trope.

Zack is just not shown ever pervert like them all. In Shounen standard, he should have, at least, drooled at Cissnei's body in Costa del Sol since Kitase and Nomura said that scene was an homage to Zack being ladiesman... and I'm disappointed that he isnt pervert at all lol.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

How is being a ladies' man being a pervert? How is being sexually attracted to women being a pervert?

I get that's a shounen trope; I've been in this fandom long enough to know that. I just think it would have been cool if for once they'd given us a protagonist who simply and honestly enjoyed shagging lots of different women, wasn't interested in a serious committed relationship, and had, as they used to say, "a girlfriend in every port". There's nothing immoral about that - for any gender - if you're upfront about it. However, I can well see that such characterisation wouldn't have made him romantic fantasy material.

Don't get me wrong, I think Crisis Core Zack is very cute. Thick as a brick, but cute. His character was under-developed in the OG' they could have taken him in any direction. For me, it would have been interesting to see a very different Crisis Core, one that explored the Wutai War in some depth and had Aerith falling hard for a charming, fun-loving older guy who wasn't all that serious about her, but decent enough to start backing off when he realised she was in danger of getting badly hurt.

 

[Thenir]

and had Aerith falling hard for a charming, fun-loving older guy who wasn't all that serious about her, but decent enough to start backing off when he realised she was in danger of getting badly hurt.

Hehe.. CC Zack is so blatantly in love that even mass-murderer son-of-an-alien Sephiroth notices it and still there are hordes of people grasped to PLATONIKKU and WOMANIZER to try to invalidate zerith, I don't even want to try to figure out how harder it would have been if he had really acted like a womanizer!

And this one too in his profile on FFVII 10th AU worsening it

Spoiler: big image

It will always be my unpopular opinion that we shouldn't take Ultimanias as sacred scrolls. They just take the scripts of the games and summarize them, and sometimes there are even mistakes (I have Ultimania Archive and it states that Brian Lockhart is the mayor of Nibelheim and that it's Cloud who asks Tifa to go on a date at GS. Both wrong). Sure, these info about Zack are correct but they both come from games released before CC and, like it or not, CC took a different direction and added many more positive layers to this characters and, like it or not again, the Remake stems from CC setting. Zack is flirty but not a cheater. And Aerith has always been flirty as well so I don't get why this trait should be used as a negative connotation to prove he doesn't deserve her (since that's the point the PLATONIKKU army usually aims to).

 

[Eerie]

I get that's a shounen trope; I've been in this fandom long enough to know that. I just think it would have been cool if for once they'd given us a protagonist who simply and honestly enjoyed shagging lots of different women, wasn't interested in a serious committed relationship, and had, as they used to say, "a girlfriend in every port". There's nothing immoral about that - for any gender - if you're upfront about it. However, I can well see that such characterisation wouldn't have made him romantic fantasy material.

That's City Hunter you're looking for lol, but that ended decades ago ^^' (both manga and anime). It's a 90's style you are not going to encounter anymore, I think, as the world has changed since then.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, it's considered bad form for guys to be womanisers now. It's not that I want every character to be like that, but to have none like that - or at least none of the good guys - is unrealistic.

 

[KindOfBlue]

???????? They are family, they're the adoptive parents of Denzel, and Tifa is Cloud's taisetsu no josei, I don't really know how else I'm supposed to describe a couple that's not married???????

Because all of those things can still be true without them actually being married, which is exactly the hope that some Cloud and Aerith shippers still hold on to.

The commitment of marriage, or even of just being boyfriend and girlfriend, is an intentional expression of devotion to one another that completely removes the possibility of Cloud still having feelings for Aerith unless if the devs go “yeah, they’re married but he still likes Aerith”, which I’d highly doubt they’d do if they were willing to marry Cloud and Tifa in the first place. In that position, the burden of proof would fall on Cloud and Aerith fans to prove Cloud still likes Aerith, and that would be a lot harder to prove if Cloud explicitly devoted himself to Tifa.

Tifa’s statement about not being a real family probably makes more sense if they’re not married but regardless I’m not suggesting Cloud and Tifa aren’t the endgame pairing or that they don’t resemble a married couple, but it takes no effort at all to just call Tifa Cloud’s wife if that’s what they wanted.

Again, the point here is not one of romantic feelings, it’s specifically of status. It’s not do they like each other, it’s is Tifa:
A. Cloud’s friend
B. Cloud’s friend that he’s in love with
C. Cloud’s girlfriend / fiancé / wife

In other words, it’s not are they similar to a married couple, it’s are they married full stop. And they don’t even need to show Cloud and Tifa confirming this, the devs could just say they are and move on lol.

Funny thing is...none of the other FF couples had to be held to such a high standard to declare their relationship status in game, like it was some mandatory check box in a Canon form.
Like, literally zero FF couples have had to say "We're boyfriend and girlfriend". "This person is the mother role to my father role"
"I have impregnated this woman, because of strong feelings on my end...hence we are to be husband and wife"

What you DO have, is "I love you" / "I have developed feelings for you" / "First guy I ever loved" etc. And EVEN so, if we're going to take Maiden as canon and ToTP as canon, then both Aerith and Tifa have said it.

Everyone just wants Cloud to say something to the tune of "I love you" before this whole LTD will "end". And even if it "ends" that way, some shippers will still go down unwillingly and in tears.

From JP perspective, people who are shy enough would just use "taisetsu na hito" to describe their lover when being asked and context would play. Again, JP isnt blatant like EN culture. Heck, most guys there even hardly say "I love you" to their romantic partner because to them, it lays deeper meaning and not something EN native casually say to everyone anytime. This is a different case to some people with personalities like Zack, for example, who would declare Aerith as his girlfriend to his friends and parents, no shy as fuck. But you cant ask people like Cloud who is very private and secretive to his own feeling does the same. "Because I have you" is the most romantic line ever coming from Cloud Strife's mouth while Zack could blatantly say "Daisuki da/I love you" easily.

Not only guys, the girl is also the same. This is why Yuna in JP actually said "Thank you" instead of "I love you" in EN localization (yeah, they kissed but still, that word isn't easy to be said). And many stories in JP having the girl say "I want to be with you/I want to spend time with you" (issho ni ittai desu) equally as "I love you". This is also what Aerith said to Zack with her note. And Zack understands that meaning, that's why he wants to return to Midgar, because their feeling is mutual.

And due to Asian collective culture, not individuality, a connotation of a man and woman forming a family is romantic. I watch a Korean Drama that is romantic as fuck but the guy there confesses his feeling with the line "I'd like to build a family with you" when they had dinner before comes to "would you marry me?" with a wedding ring in the ending. The same culture applies in my country, Indonesia.

It’s not just what the characters do in-universe though, I’m saying the devs could put this entire thing in the coffin if they just said “girlfriend” or “wife”

More than any narrative ambiguity, I think the core of this LTD is the inconclusiveness of Aerith's character arc in the OG for what concerns her human side. It makes sense since one of the points of her development is to realise the importance of her Cetra heritage, but still the story stresses her romantic dreams only to cut them short and never address them anymore once she dies.
As far as I've seen many people just can't believe that these romantic expectations ended in nothing. It doesn't matter if Cloud objectively shows almost no interest into it, Aerith's feelings are a loose end that many people resolved with Cloud being permanently in love with her, even if there's actually no objective proof, a CA outcome requires the characters to be turned into jerks to work, Aerith never met real Cloud and there's not a piece of evidence that she would have pursued this romance after realizing the truth about his fake persona.
Had the OG showed Zack trying to go back to Aerith before being killed, probably it would have spared fans from a lot of debates but his ending lines weren't exactly "that" romantic...
Ironically this is exactly how CC fixed the situation, I guess too late since so many people try to diminish its importance and canonicity to the point of absurdity.
It seems to me that CA stans hate Zack more than Sephiroth, since her first love is more of a threat for their ship than her killer. Kind of a disturbing mindset, if I may say so.

But see, a statement explicitly confirming Cloud doesn’t have any feelings for Aerith anymore brings the kind of finality that forces people to either accept the story or spend the rest of their days being salty about it because the hope they thought they had has been taken from them (like Naruto and Sakura shippers lol)

 

[kathy202]

Are there actually that many people denying Cloti even after AC? Or is it just a loud minority? And... That tweet was meant to be sarcastic right?

I do agree if the devs just outright said they're officially boyfriend and girlfriend, it would render any remaining deniers utterly delusional. But god, do we really need to go that far?

Granted sometimes I think they are deliberately roundabout when it comes to making official statements too. How hard is it to say "Tifa, *the* woman Cloud loves", as opposed to "Tifa, an important woman to Cloud"? I'm sure his mom was an important woman too. Unless they were playing on the word "taisetsu" that I vaguely recall Sephiroth using to taunt Cloud when he asked what was important to him.

Somehow this whole LTD reminds me of that viral blue and black dress thing a few years ago. If you see it one way, it's hard, sometimes impossible, to see it in another way even if you know what the real color of the dress is.

 

[Eerie]

Again, the point here is not one of romantic feelings, it’s specifically of status. It’s not do they like each other, it’s is Tifa:
A. Cloud’s friend
B. Cloud’s friend that he’s in love with
C. Cloud’s girlfriend / fiancé / wife

Taisetsu no josei is C. Only C. Or his mother, but we can agree Tifa's NOT Claudia, right?

Granted sometimes I think they are deliberately roundabout when it comes to making official statements too. How hard is it to say "Tifa, *the* woman Cloud loves", as opposed to "Tifa, an important woman to Cloud"? I'm sure his mom was an important woman too. Unless they were playing on the word "taisetsu" that I vaguely recall Sephiroth using to taunt Cloud when he asked what was important to him.

It's funny you say that because "taisetsu no josei" can only be two people in a het man's life: his mother and his wife. Period. We were discussing this with Peko just yesterday, and that's what she told me lol.

And I don't know how many people do think they're not together even after ACC, but there's a whole bunch of them all over the forums and reddit, twitter etc. I've seen people argue in French the LT, honestly, it's the same than in English.

 

[Phantasia]

Are there actually that many people denying Cloti even after AC? Or is it just a loud minority?

I might be worng, but I think in this fandom shippers in general ARE a very loud minority. I always have my doubts when people claim "Square is not gonna do this or that because 50% of the fanbase is gonna be pissed". I think this is baseless speculation.

Most players don't care about that, and even if they have their preferences, they will accept whatever outcome we get in the shipping department, because this game is about saving the planet, not about who Cloud loves the most.

A few hundred pissed fans is nothing when compared to the millions who bought the game, and will continue to buy the rest of the remake hoping to play the very same game they fell in love with years ago.

People want to see flashy fights, kill monsters and ride chocobos, not an effing wedding...

 

[KindOfBlue]

Taisetsu no josei is C. Only C. Or his mother, but we can agree Tifa's NOT Claudia, right?

In this specific context though, a family not related by blood or officially through marriage, why wouldn’t B also be applicable? Couldn’t “important woman” also mean girlfriend or someone he’s in love with, it has to mean wife?

I do agree if the devs just outright said they're officially boyfriend and girlfriend, it would render any remaining deniers utterly delusional. But god, do we really need to go that far?

At this point, I think it’s either that or the LTD stays in the exact same place it’s in now lol

"Square is not gonna do this or that because 50% of the fanbase in gonna be pissed". I think this is baseless speculation.

Yeah, I doubt SE would share as much info as they have if they really wanted to keep things ambiguous, I’d only guess that they like to keep the door open for Aerith just a little

 

[Humming]

I think it’s either that or the LTD stays in the exact same place it’s in now lol

Probably they will shift the goalposts again. I've already seen (and I don't browse FF7 ships much in social media) some accounts claiming that ToTP shows that Cloti is a thing of the past and that the novel is purely a Clerith love letter, mostly because there's a scene of Cloud and Aerith staring at a chocobo or something mundane like that. Those who have already built their own fiction won't listen to any new content, doesn't matter how explicit it says that Cloud and Tifa are married, retired and living together in Costa del Sol. Though I suspect that despite the same message was supported by several accounts, most of them were the same person.

 

[LNK]

you could still try to seriously argue for Naruto and Sakura as a couple but to do so at this point wouldn’t just be wrong, but delusional

Don't you think Clerith fans are being delusional though? They've pretty much made Cloud out to be the biggest douchebag, all for the sake of their "couple"

Tifa’s statement about not being a real family probably makes more sense if they’re not married but regardless I’m not suggesting Cloud and Tifa aren’t the endgame pairing or that they don’t resemble a married couple, but it takes no effort at all to just call Tifa Cloud’s wife if that’s what they wanted.

Would them being married really matter when it comes down to it though? Married couples cheat all the time

Heck, most guys there even hardly say "I love you" to their romantic partner because to them, it lays deeper meaning and not something EN native casually say to everyone anytime.

It's funny you bring this up. Recently I talked to my girlfriend about this (we're both white Americans). I was telling her that I don't feel the need to say/be told "I love you." I'd much rather show it in my own way. When it comes down to it, to me, words don't mean as much as action does

People want to see flashy fights, kill monsters and ride chocobos, not an effing wedding...

I agree! Which is why Noctis/Luna is one of my favorite relationships in videogames

 

[Eerie]

In this specific context though, a family not related by blood or officially through marriage, why wouldn’t B also be applicable? Couldn’t “important woman” also mean girlfriend or someone he’s in love with, it has to mean wife?

See:

It's funny you say that because "taisetsu no josei" can only be two people in a het man's life: his mother and his wife. Period. We were discussing this with Peko just yesterday, and that's what she told me lol.

I already answered your question even before you asked it

 

[KindOfBlue]

Probably they will shift the goalposts again. I've already seen (and I don't browse FF7 ships much in social media) some accounts claiming that ToTP shows that Cloti is a thing of the past and that the novel is purely a Clerith love letter, mostly because there's a scene of Cloud and Aerith staring at a chocobo or something mundane like that. Those who have already built their own fiction won't listen to any new content, doesn't matter how explicit it says that Cloud and Tifa are married, retired and living together in Costa del Sol. Though I suspect that despite the same message was supported by several accounts, most of them were the same person.

Oh they definitely will, but I think the easiest way to disarm those kinds of people is to take out any possibility of them not looking delusional

Don't you think Clerith fans are being delusional though? They've pretty much made Cloud out to be the biggest douchebag, all for the sake of their "couple"

A lot of them are, but based on the currently available information I don’t think it’s the craziest idea to suggest Cloud may still have some feelings for Aerith post-FF7 because it has never been stated that he doesn’t and we know he at least liked her during FF7…so if you want to eliminate the possibility of Cloud still liking Aerith, that’s gonna have to be made explicitly clear

Would them being married really matter when it comes down to it though? Married couples cheat all the time

True, but then you’d have to prove Cloud’s a cheater…some people choose to interpret AC as Cloud still harboring feelings for Aerith and we can’t really say that’s a wrong interpretation unless the devs themselves clarify “no, Cloud didn’t like Aerith anymore at that point”. We can only say those claims are wrong once they start trying to prove he doesn’t love Tifa because we have statements that definitively indicate the contrary.

I already answered your question even before you asked it

But…you didn’t? My question was why would that term only be applicable to a wife or mother and not to a girlfriend/love interest?

 

[Eerie]

Because it is as it is? I don't make the words or expressions you know - once translated that doesn't look so romantic, but for anyone Japanese it is super romantic? It's not meant to describe a love interest, it's meant to describe a long term girlfriend/partner/wife (or a mother; it's the kind of feminine presence where a man only has TWO in his life).

Honestly, I will say it again, but boyfriend/girlfriend absolutely *NOT* fit Cloud and Tifa. It's wayyyy too superficial. It sounds like a teenager romance (hence why Aerith and Zack got it, even though it was most probably more than just that), Cloud and Tifa are already past that. Boyfriend/girlfriend is just the start of a relationship, when you are at a point where you are the heads of a family, live together with two kids, have common finances, then you are partners or husband and wife. And in this case, yes, it's taisetsu no josei for the woman's role in the man's life. I feel like I repeat myself over and over while this is extremely simple for me to apprehend, am I explaining badly or what.

 

[LNK]

A lot of them are, but based on the currently available information I don’t think it’s the craziest idea to suggest Cloud may still have some feelings for Aerith post-FF7 because it has never been stated that he doesn’t and we know he at least liked her during FF7…so if you want to eliminate the possibility of Cloud still liking Aerith, that’s gonna have to be made explicitly clear

I think those feelings that Cloud had (After OG, prior to AC) are so small, that they should be acknowledged, but essentially ignored post AC. Any feelings he had for Aerith were resolved by the ending of AC. There is no info that Cloud still has any feelings for her

True, but then you’d have to prove Cloud’s a cheater…some people choose to interpret AC as Cloud still harboring feelings for Aerith and we can’t really say that’s a wrong interpretation unless the devs themselves clarify “no, Cloud didn’t like Aerith anymore at that point”. We can only say those claims are wrong once they start trying to prove he doesn’t love Tifa because we have statements that definitively indicate the contrary.

Oh I agree. I don't think Cloud is a cheater or douchebag. I think he is someone who still had some feelings (more than likely pretty small) for Aerith up until the end of AC. After that, him and Tifa continued their relationship.

 

[kathy202]

At this point, I think it’s either that or the LTD stays in the exact same place it’s in now lol

True, but I think the devs just don't care about the more extreme LTD discourse lol

There's little incentive from their PoV to come out and say "Cloud and Tifa are boyfriend and girlfriend" (or husband and wife, or domestic partners, or whatever). It's awfully cringey being so explicit and it'll only serve to make a small bunch of crazy shippers even more unhappy, or worse, stop giving them money. It might kill the LTD for good (I doubt), and I'm not sure that's what they want lol... The LTD is good for their social media engagement metric.

So yeah, it's here to stay for a while. I suppose we can entertain ourselves with some QAnon level theories that are luckily, way less harmful.

Though who knows, if we wait long enough for those who remember the OG and have filled their minds with head canons to no longer give a damn, we might get a Cloti wedding. Probably in 2100 when they're finally done milking this series. And Aerith and Zack live to be the bridesmaid and bestman.

 

[LNK]

And Aerith and Zack live to be the bridesmaid and bestman.

Nah, they're dead lol

 

[frosty]

I always have my doubts when people claim "Square is not gonna do this or that because 50% of the fanbase in gonna be pissed". I think this is baseless speculation.

Every time I see this "Company X won't do X because it would piss off the fans", I think about Neil Druckmman laughing all the way to the bank with TLOU 2 being the 3rd highest grossing PS4 game of all time. This, despite the hate mail, death threats, the review bombing and the 3.4/10 Metacritic score from people who a) didn't buy the game b) rated it based on leaked spoilers about Joel before it was even launched.

The commitment of marriage, or even of just being boyfriend and girlfriend, is an intentional expression of devotion to one another that completely removes the possibility of Cloud still having feelings for Aerith unless if the devs go “yeah, they’re married but he still likes Aerith”, which I’d highly doubt they’d do if they were willing to marry Cloud and Tifa in the first place.

Imagine in the beginning of AC you are explicitly told that Tifa is Cloud's wife - The premise of AC would be a married man mourning a dead woman. Even if you assume no romantic feelings from Cloud towards Aerith, that gets a little weird lol

 

[KindOfBlue]

it's meant to describe a long term girlfriend/partner/wife

So which one is Tifa, that’s the question…if you say it’s applicable to a long term girlfriend or a wife, then is Tifa his long term girlfriend or is she his wife?

Boyfriend/girlfriend is just the start of a relationship, when you are at a point where you are the heads of a family, live together with two kids, have common finances, then you are partners or husband and wife.

That I have to disagree with, boyfriend/girlfriend is typically used to describe one’s partner regardless of how serious the relationship is…granted, considering everything you pointed out they might as well be married, but in that case the devs should just come out and say they are already because some unmarried couples do all the things you described believe it or not

am I explaining badly or what.

You’re not explaining the idea badly, you just keep conflating Tifa’s role with her status…she is the important woman in Cloud’s life and the mother figure of their family but what we don’t know is if they’re actually married which is a specific contract that implies commitment and comes with a title (husband/wife), it’s not just the role the person plays

There is no info that Cloud still has any feelings for her

“But there’s no info that he DOESN’T still have feelings…” is probably what detractors might say, in which case it would be really convenient to be able to point to a statement that says “well, actually it says right here that he doesn’t” and just move on with life lol

It might kill the LTD for good (I doubt), and I'm not sure that's what they want lol... The LTD is good for their social media engagement metric.

I like to think that the amount of butthurt a statement like that would generate would make up for the engagement lol surely the LTD will still be around but at least it’ll be as redundant as ever…if there’s ever a time to do this though, I’d say after FF7R is over because at that point I don’t think there’d much of a reason to be so subtle about it

Imagine in the beginning of AC you are explicitly told that Tifa is Cloud's wife - The premise of AC would be a married man mourning a dead woman. Even if you assume no romantic feelings from Cloud towards Aerith, that gets a little weird lol

Nah but see, that’s actually romantic because it demonstrates the eternal love between Cloud and Aerith that transcends life and death and time and space and all manner of social constructs and ughhhhhhhhh lol…if I were the devs, I’d just mention Cloud and Tifa’s status after the fact in an interview like “yeah, after AC, they tied the knot” and just be done with it lol

 

[LNK]

But there’s no info that he DOESN’T still have feelings…” is probably what detractors might say, in which case it would be really convenient to be able to point to a statement that says “well, actually it says right here that he doesn’t” and just move on with life lol

I mean, the same could be said about all the other women. Maybe Cloud has feelings for Yuffie? It's never stated that he doesn't. The detractors are going to always detract. Especially with the LT. Besides, in real life, relations are not always ended in absolutes.

 

[Eerie]

So which one is Tifa, that’s the question…if you say it’s applicable to a long term girlfriend or a wife, then is Tifa his long term girlfriend or is she his wife?

She is his important woman.

That I have to disagree with, boyfriend/girlfriend is typically used to describe one’s partner regardless of how serious the relationship is…granted, considering everything you pointed out they might as well be married, but in that case the devs should just come out and say they are already because some unmarried couples do all the things you described believe it or not

You are telling that to a woman who wasn't married with her partner for 20+ years...... believe it or not, once we were truly committed and started living together, we never ever called ourselves boyfriend/girlfriend because it's non-sense. Here in France we use "compagnon/compagne" which means partner and which is what taisetsu na josei describes. Why the need to say something else when the term described is already strong enough, smh.

she is the important woman in Cloud’s life and the mother figure of their family but what we don’t know is if they’re actually married which is a specific contract that implies commitment and comes with a title (husband/wife), it’s not just the role the person plays

Believe it or not, I don't think that in a post-meteor FFVII, the act of marrying is the most important thing for a couple. Surviving together is already good enough. The title of husband and wife does not matter, even IRL is it that important? My husband's been calling me his wife years before we actually got married, and we only did because I was worried about if something happened to one of us. The fact that you, or some other fans, put so much weight in marriage is just weird. Tifa being Cloud's important woman does not matter? It's as heavy as being married so I cannot get what your point is.