KindOfBlue
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Ffs people need to stop taking social media posts so seriously lol
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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Holy shit I come to browse this thread and I guess the shipping war had gone corporate now. Wild.
I wonder what Elon and Grimes think about this.
I wonder what Elon and Grimes think about this.
Elon is looking for mako, gotta keep it low profile.
Final_Heaven
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Wasn't that line ambiguous in Japanese and could've been translated into "I don't care" rather than "I don't know"
KindOfBlue
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Now that I don’t know, although I suppose both translations could convey the idea that it doesn’t really matter. I mean really, I think AC still works if you interpret Cloud and Tifa to be platonic, or friends who like each other, or boyfriend/girlfriend, engaged, married, whatever, although the only one of those options that we can definitively say isn’t true is that they’re platonic because, well, they’re explicitly not platonic since they do officially like each other.
I guess it’s easier to definitively say they at least like each other with all of the statements made over the years but for somebody who believed the opposite, changing course can be difficult especially if you’ve made your ship your whole personality lol.
The last bastion of hope for some I’d say is the possibility that Cloud may still like Aerith during AC since I guess the devs never exactly said he didn’t, sooooo…in any case, I’d consider the LTD officially over if they explicitly have Cloud and Tifa become an official couple or if they clarify that Cloud doesn’t still like Aerith post-FF7. I doubt they’ll do the latter so as to not directly alienate anybody but perhaps they can still do the former?
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Ultimania 20th Anniversary, them being shown on the page "For the one I love" with all the other pairings in other FF is not enough now? What ELSE can SE say at this point?
Translations from the FF 20th anniversary Ultimania from this one website:
This is why the high affection Highwind scene is considered canon too.
This is also why the LTD has mostly switched from "the canon pairing" to the "one who Cloud loves the most". Moving goalposts etc.
KindOfBlue
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I agree that it’s enough to canonize their romantic feelings for each other but what I’m talking about is more of a confirmation of their official relationship status, I don’t think them not having a label makes them any less of a couple but you’d see a lot more people rightfully declaring “victory” if SE just came out and said “yes, they are boyfriend and girlfriend” with as little room for doubt as possible…of course we know people would still find excuses even in that scenario but the more delusional types will have less of a leg to stand on lolUltimania 20th Anniversary, them being shown on the page "For the one I love" with all the other pairings in other FF is not enough now? What ELSE can SE say at this point?
Translations from the FF 20th anniversary Ultimania from this one website:
This is why the high affection Highwind scene is considered canon too.
This is also why the LTD has mostly switched from "the canon pairing" to the "one who Cloud loves the most". Moving goalposts etc.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
They're the parents of their family, they have romantic feelings for each other, did the samba under the Highwind, Tifa's an important person in Cloud's life, Nojima talks about them as if they were married but somehow, we need a tangible proof that SE will never give because they are Japanese and they do not work that way? What kind of hints must we have at this stage, SE will never outright say "they're boyfriend/girlfriend", lol I wouldn't say it either because they are a true couple, it's deeper than bf/gf. If Nojima is able to parallel them with the idea of a married couple, so should all fandom.
LNK
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I'll never understand why it even matters. Aerith is dead. Cloud and Tifa are together. That SHOULD be the end of discussion. If Cloud loved Aerith more, he wouldn't be with Tifa.
Thenir
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Agree with everybody, but, honestly, all these ambiguities and allowed interpretations only fuel an old and annoying "we" vs "you" war. More than leaving it this way, or have the devs aseptically state "yes they love each other/no they don't", I'd really appreciate if this time they could BUILD meaningful, unambiguous, fulfilling and heartwarming relationships that every fan could enjoy and appreciate. Wouldn't it be much better?
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I think that's where Remake shines, because the devs really aren't letting the LT get in the way. Remake uses the LT as an illusion, but if you pay attention to it, you can break the illusion and have the answer in game (I should really do that chapter 11 shitpost here, shouldn't I?). There's also the way they also organised some things in the Ultimania, like the resolutions, you can clearly see the bias - hint: even though all are canon, the first you see is Tifa's with the hug, then Aerith's, then Barret's, but it's not the chronological order and only the Tifa one has Cloud in the picture, aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnd they say it's true Cloud who shows up because he wants to comfort her that much, oh and also the description of the scene in the newest Ultimania is the most romantic shit you can find in it. I kid you not I thought I was reading some romance novel, but that was topped indeed by ToTP with Tifa's memories of the promise scene and everything that led to it.
It's the fact that this time around, they're doing something that they didn't in '97: in '97 you chose one path that led either to Aerith, either to Tifa (and they pushed Aerith's path as the canon outcome to make sure we'd believe she is the true love interest and make us care about her). Globally, if you played only once (which I think a lot of people did back then, and no, we're not a good example of how people played ^^'), then you missed a part of the game. Could you get Aerith's GS date and the high affection scene under the highwind? Absolutely. But you STILL MISSED how Cloud would act towards Aerith, or how he would act towards Tifa, and the building of their relationship, depending on who you chose. Because the girls are pitted against each other, we don't get to see it. Especially since we're biased so we chose to favour one girl (let me tell you some Tifa answers for the LT are absolutely impossible to guess without a manual). You don't get some nice scene in Cosmo Canyon with Tifa if you chose Aerith, for example. The feeling of the game could be very different depending on who you "chose".
Here in Remake, this is not the case anymore. We see ALL the relationships Cloud builds with people - yes, with Tifa, with Aerith, but also with Barret, Avalanche... The only optional ones are side quests with both Tifa and Aerith, and the game pushes you to do them. You're supposed to do them, if only to collect all the dresses. You're supposed to see Cloud and Tifa reconnecting after years of separation, how close they become, hell flirting together; that it's because this happens that Tifa can believe in Cloud, which is super important to HIM. You're supposed to do the quests with Aerith, because Cloud is a good guy and he completely would help her, no question asked. You're supposed to see them becoming fast friends, but with Zack's shadow over them (if you already played the OG, that is, or CC). You have 1 bonus scene with each girl if you do so. And it's not doing one prevents you from doing the other, you're supposed to do everything!
LT-wise, this is where Remake is shinier than the OG, because you're seeing Cloud's full trajectory. And IMHO you're also seeing how special Tifa is to him, compared to Aerith, and to everyone else. Cloud treats Tifa differently, and no, he doesn't treat her like a sister (seeing this argument always makes me a little sick, I'll admit). The devs are making sure to make cloti veryyyyyyyy noticeable from the beginning, may it be in their lines, interactions, but also the filmming is giving it away. They're not shying away from their main pair as they have been doing pre-CC anymore, this is the result of SE admitting their canon pairs, which are cloti and zerith. It's not like clerith isn't cute or not shippable - it is, very much so, I will *never* tell a clerith that they're wrong for shipping it. Clerith served the illusion in the OG, and it still serves the illusion in Remake, except the truth is hanging there from the very beginning and if you pay attention to it, you can see it. In fact, giving how they talk about true Cloud coming out for Tifa in Ultimanias, they're literally serving you with how much she matters to him, how much she's still where his true feelings lie.
It's the fact that this time around, they're doing something that they didn't in '97: in '97 you chose one path that led either to Aerith, either to Tifa (and they pushed Aerith's path as the canon outcome to make sure we'd believe she is the true love interest and make us care about her). Globally, if you played only once (which I think a lot of people did back then, and no, we're not a good example of how people played ^^'), then you missed a part of the game. Could you get Aerith's GS date and the high affection scene under the highwind? Absolutely. But you STILL MISSED how Cloud would act towards Aerith, or how he would act towards Tifa, and the building of their relationship, depending on who you chose. Because the girls are pitted against each other, we don't get to see it. Especially since we're biased so we chose to favour one girl (let me tell you some Tifa answers for the LT are absolutely impossible to guess without a manual). You don't get some nice scene in Cosmo Canyon with Tifa if you chose Aerith, for example. The feeling of the game could be very different depending on who you "chose".
Here in Remake, this is not the case anymore. We see ALL the relationships Cloud builds with people - yes, with Tifa, with Aerith, but also with Barret, Avalanche... The only optional ones are side quests with both Tifa and Aerith, and the game pushes you to do them. You're supposed to do them, if only to collect all the dresses. You're supposed to see Cloud and Tifa reconnecting after years of separation, how close they become, hell flirting together; that it's because this happens that Tifa can believe in Cloud, which is super important to HIM. You're supposed to do the quests with Aerith, because Cloud is a good guy and he completely would help her, no question asked. You're supposed to see them becoming fast friends, but with Zack's shadow over them (if you already played the OG, that is, or CC). You have 1 bonus scene with each girl if you do so. And it's not doing one prevents you from doing the other, you're supposed to do everything!
LT-wise, this is where Remake is shinier than the OG, because you're seeing Cloud's full trajectory. And IMHO you're also seeing how special Tifa is to him, compared to Aerith, and to everyone else. Cloud treats Tifa differently, and no, he doesn't treat her like a sister (seeing this argument always makes me a little sick, I'll admit). The devs are making sure to make cloti veryyyyyyyy noticeable from the beginning, may it be in their lines, interactions, but also the filmming is giving it away. They're not shying away from their main pair as they have been doing pre-CC anymore, this is the result of SE admitting their canon pairs, which are cloti and zerith. It's not like clerith isn't cute or not shippable - it is, very much so, I will *never* tell a clerith that they're wrong for shipping it. Clerith served the illusion in the OG, and it still serves the illusion in Remake, except the truth is hanging there from the very beginning and if you pay attention to it, you can see it. In fact, giving how they talk about true Cloud coming out for Tifa in Ultimanias, they're literally serving you with how much she matters to him, how much she's still where his true feelings lie.
KindOfBlue
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They didn’t seem to have any trouble giving Zack and Aerith such a label, expecting the whole fanbase to relent so easily is wishful thinking unfortunately…I mean, yeah it should be obvious at this point but as you can see from the current state of the fanbase, not exactly
It should be the end of it but we’re really just stuck going in circles until they come out and remove any room for doubt, I mean just imagine a post-LTD FF7 fanbase…a definitive end to this ungodly monster lol
I think we are the ones mistaken if we hope the ship wars will end after whatever confirmation is given. The Earth is round, not debatable, and some people still deny it. Covid, vaccines, science, religion, statistics, red, blue, pink, yellow, you name it, some people will deny it. I was gonna say they do it on purpose, but after giving it some thought... people are just wired different. They just won't.
People still believe Could is looking for his promise land in every game, book, or piece of media he has appeared (quoting reddit here...). People still call Aerith Aeris, even after the remake. Some still call Tifa a bully, even after the novel. Heck, people still debate whether Hojo or Vincent is Sephiroth's father, when there is a clear answer to that IN the game.
Some people just played a completely different game, and no one is changing that. But that's ok, thus that is the reason we are here. Whether we like it or not, disagreement brings progress (at least sometimes...). It makes people read, research, ask questions, and if you're a lucky one, change the way you think (sometimes for better and sometimes for worse, but that's life I guess).
Eerie
Fire and Blood
But "important person" is exactly that, it's "taisetsu na josei", partner/wife vibe, not oh that important friend there. It's funny that I saw this today on the tag:
KindOfBlue
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I mean of course people will always argue but what I’m looking for is not just for the LTD to end, but to be made obsolete…like yeah, you could still try to seriously argue for Naruto and Sakura as a couple but to do so at this point wouldn’t just be wrong, but delusional
I think you’re mixing two different things, the question isn’t whether or not Cloud loves Tifa, or considers her an important person, or if they have romantic undertones, it’s strictly are they boyfriend and girlfriend, which is a specific stated commitment to one another as romantic partners…of course, you could have a partner and not be in love with them, and two people could be in love and not be partners officially but I think having that relationship status provides a more definitive sense of clarity so that all of the “but what about Aerith?” points don’t have the benefit of ambiguity to stay afloat with.
While the story of AC is still the same, I think having that definition could give a bit more insight into Tifa’s perspective with regards to her statement about not being a “real family”:
- “He’s supposed to be my boyfriend/fiancé/husband but he’s barely here and these kids aren’t really our kids anyways so do we really have a family…?”
Or
- “We know how we feel about each other but we never officially made that commitment so maybe we’re not really a family after all…?”
Eerie
Fire and Blood
........ Taisetsu na josei IS ROMANTIC dammit you say that from a wife, when I say partner it's commited people together who are not married! *exhausted* SEE you are doing exactly what cleriths and others in fandom are doing and denying why cloti is the canon pairing. You are sur-interpreting the translation of japanese words. All the words in English (important person, companion, partner) can be turned into "oh it's not romantic" when, it's supposed to be. If they tell you "taisetsu na josei" on one side, and on the other side the writer talks about them as if they're married, there is absolutely ZERO way to interpret this as anything other than romantic. I don't even know why it's a topic at this stage.
you say that from a wife, when I say partner it's commited people together who are not married! *exhausted* SEE you are doing exactly what cleriths and others in fandom are doing and denying why cloti is the canon pairing. You are sur-interpreting the translation of japanese words. All the words in English (important person, companion, partner) can be turned into "oh it's not romantic" when, it's supposed to be. If they tell you "taisetsu na josei" on one side, and on the other side the writer talks about them as if they're married, there is absolutely ZERO way to interpret this as anything other than romantic. I don't even know why it's a topic at this stage.Ahhhh, arguing against Sakura fans, the good old days. A disturbing thought though, after I'd won that argument, instead of sitting on my laurels, I instead stopped watching Naruto and started arguing about FFVII instead. Even if the LTD ends, perhaps I am eternally stuck in one LTD or another 0.o
Thenir
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Don't say it or SE could think it's a good idea to keep fans on pins and needles in aeternum
Btw I saw Sakura fans trying to validate their pov even very recently lol
KindOfBlue
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Well, the point you make is exactly why my point isn’t about whether or not their feelings are romantic, it’s what is their exact relationship status......... Taisetsu na josei IS ROMANTIC dammit
It’s normal for relationships to experience tension due to not clearly defining what they are, I mean, I’m not just gonna call my girlfriend my “beloved/precious/important person” even though she obviously is, but she has the clear title of “girlfriend”. It clearly defines the relationship and leaves no doubt about its nature, and a label like that would take away any footing from people who still deny Cloud and Tifa. Would it shut them up? No. But it would sure save these LTDs a lot of trouble if we could just say “SE says they’re boyfriend and girlfriend” and leave it at that.
Look, people are weird, okay? For some, a canon kiss would be enough to seal the deal between the two, but would that really change what we already know? Nope! So what difference would it make? It wouldn’t really change much storywise, but unfortunately people need to be smacked in the face with the truth sometimes.
I’m glad I didn’t care about shipping when I first got into FF7 because I don’t have nearly the energy that I did in the days of Sakura vs Hinata lol
Eerie
Fire and Blood
???????? They are family, they're the adoptive parents of Denzel, and Tifa is Cloud's taisetsu no josei, I don't really know how else I'm supposed to describe a couple that's not married???????
Funny thing is...none of the other FF couples had to be held to such a high standard to declare their relationship status in game, like it was some mandatory check box in a Canon form.KindofBlue said:
Like, literally zero FF couples have had to say "We're boyfriend and girlfriend". "This person is the mother role to my father role"
"I have impregnated this woman, because of strong feelings on my end...hence we are to be husband and wife"
What you DO have, is "I love you" / "I have developed feelings for you" / "First guy I ever loved" etc. And EVEN so, if we're going to take Maiden as canon and ToTP as canon, then both Aerith and Tifa have said it.
Everyone just wants Cloud to say something to the tune of "I love you" before this whole LTD will "end". And even if it "ends" that way, some shippers will still go down unwillingly and in tears.
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eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
From JP perspective, people who are shy enough would just use "taisetsu na hito" to describe their lover when being asked and context would play. Again, JP isnt blatant like EN culture. Heck, most guys there even hardly say "I love you" to their romantic partner because to them, it lays deeper meaning and not something EN native casually say to everyone anytime. This is a different case to some people with personalities like Zack, for example, who would declare Aerith as his girlfriend to his friends and parents, no shy as fuck. But you cant ask people like Cloud who is very private and secretive to his own feeling does the same. "Because I have you" is the most romantic line ever coming from Cloud Strife's mouth while Zack could blatantly say "Daisuki da/I love you" easily.
Not only guys, the girl is also the same. This is why Yuna in JP actually said "Thank you" instead of "I love you" in EN localization (yeah, they kissed but still, that word isn't easy to be said). And many stories in JP having the girl say "I want to be with you/I want to spend time with you" (issho ni ittai desu) equally as "I love you". This is also what Aerith said to Zack with her note. And Zack understands that meaning, that's why he wants to return to Midgar, because their feeling is mutual.
And due to Asian collective culture, not individuality, a connotation of a man and woman forming a family is romantic. I watch a Korean Drama that is romantic as fuck but the guy there confesses his feeling with the line "I'd like to build a family with you" when they had dinner before comes to "would you marry me?" with a wedding ring in the ending. The same culture applies in my country, Indonesia.
Not only guys, the girl is also the same. This is why Yuna in JP actually said "Thank you" instead of "I love you" in EN localization (yeah, they kissed but still, that word isn't easy to be said). And many stories in JP having the girl say "I want to be with you/I want to spend time with you" (issho ni ittai desu) equally as "I love you". This is also what Aerith said to Zack with her note. And Zack understands that meaning, that's why he wants to return to Midgar, because their feeling is mutual.
And due to Asian collective culture, not individuality, a connotation of a man and woman forming a family is romantic. I watch a Korean Drama that is romantic as fuck but the guy there confesses his feeling with the line "I'd like to build a family with you" when they had dinner before comes to "would you marry me?" with a wedding ring in the ending. The same culture applies in my country, Indonesia.
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Thenir
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More than any narrative ambiguity, I think the core of this LTD is the inconclusiveness of Aerith's character arc in the OG for what concerns her human side. It makes sense since one of the points of her development is to realise the importance of her Cetra heritage, but still the story stresses her romantic dreams only to cut them short and never address them anymore once she dies.
As far as I've seen many people just can't believe that these romantic expectations ended in nothing. It doesn't matter if Cloud objectively shows almost no interest into it, Aerith's feelings are a loose end that many people resolved with Cloud being permanently in love with her, even if there's actually no objective proof, a CA outcome requires the characters to be turned into jerks to work, Aerith never met real Cloud and there's not a piece of evidence that she would have pursued this romance after realizing the truth about his fake persona.
Had the OG showed Zack trying to go back to Aerith before being killed, probably it would have spared fans from a lot of debates but his ending lines weren't exactly "that" romantic...
Ironically this is exactly how CC fixed the situation, I guess too late since so many people try to diminish its importance and canonicity to the point of absurdity.
It seems to me that CA stans hate Zack more than Sephiroth, since her first love is more of a threat for their ship than her killer. Kind of a disturbing mindset, if I may say so.
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