SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Phantasia]

Am I allowed to like both ships equally?

Permission granted. Spread love, not hate. Positivity vibes only.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't know whether "look" means "style" or "physical features" in that context, but anyway that's the beside the point.

My personal feeling is that it is contrary to the spirit of the game to see these characters as deliberate portrayals of Earth races. It's pretty obvious that race is not a thing, and probably doesn't even exist as a concept, in the world of FFVII. Aerith is not "white American" or "white European" with all the baggage that comes along with that, and Barret is not "African-American" with all the baggage that comes along with that, regardless of who their voice actors are. Don Corneo is not Italian. Yufie is not Asian. Those regions don't exist in their world. That history doesn't exist in their world. All humans of all different skin colours and eye shapes and hair textures live together on their planet and there's no obvious association of physical appearance to geographic region.

Check out this Wutaian guy, Zhijie



I don't doubt somebody could make an argument about how blond hair, blue eyes and big noses aren't inherently un-Asian, but I'm asking you, does he strike you as a character who was deliberately designed to look "Asian"?

Square Enix is making an effort to be more representative of humanity's broad spectrum in its character designs, which is a great thing. However, FFVII has nothing to say about Earth's racialised politics and race relations. That's why I say Tifa doesn't look "Asian". She looks like a Nibelheimer, because that's what she is.

 

[Eerie]

I agree with what you're saying, but it also doesn't mean that when you write, especially when you rewrite from a game you made some 20 years ago, you don't start from scratch. It doesn't matter that being Eastern ou Western doesn't exist in the world, it just means that you copy the "look" of the character. After all, Tifa in AC was modeled after a Japanese actress - it doesn't mean that she has roots in Wutai, but it's natural that fans will wonder if she does.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I agree that it used to be natural, but I think with Intermission (if niot before) SE has made it pretty clear that even if Wutai's culture all looks "Asian", it's people don't.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I mean you said it best, meanings change with modern times…if you called two people lovers, most people would understand that to mean there’s some kind of relationship going on, and for all the reasons you mentioned, that’s exactly why I’d consider “beloved” or “she loved him” a more accurate translation of the word

Well, my other unworded point was that if an author wanted to use the word 'lover' one-sidedly, they wouldn't be wrong to do so since, well, that's what the word means. Someone who loves. Old books did it all the time so the word doesn't really faze me anymore. That's why there is context. Anyway, in the case of Lifestream White, it would've been more accurate to phrase it as "Aerith was Cloud's lover", because she is the one who loves him regardless of his feelings (I mean if the English version had decided to use the word 'lover'). But since people don't really read, I suspect that phrasing would've made them lose their minds more than calling Cloud Aerith's beloved did.

I mean, it's just a word. It doesn't erase the fact that Aerith/Cloud never happened and never will, and that Tifa/Cloud happened and they keep happening regardless of what iteration of themselves they are. And regardless of whatever maybe squishy romantic feelings Cloud may or may not have had for Aerith, it doesn't change the fact she was someone he cherished/cherishes. She was his protectee (even if he was kinda roped into it), comrade and friend at least, and in Japanese stories that's a big deal. Sometimes when I read these discussions it sounds like Cloud must have some shade of romantic feelings for her or he has no feelings at all.

 

[Shadowfox]

I remember that time when I read one of the comment which is the same asking about LTD, there’s a person who admitted themselves as Cloti but saying if Aerith had lived, he will be with her because Tifa is shy, cannot express her feelings like Aerith, and based on Tifa personality, she will leave Aerith to Cloud, and I was like????

I've always disliked this type of reasoning cos it sounds as if Cloud can't or won't decide for himself at all, or that he's the kind who's content to form his romantic relationships on a 'first come, first served' basis.

It just reminds me of those really terrible anime harem fanfics I used to see in the wild days of usenet newsgroups.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I don't object much his conclusions but rather the way he expressed them in the novel. Aerith meets Zack in the afterlife and she doesn't really confront him about their feelings, she doesn't acknowledge his merits fot having saved Cloud carrying him unconscious from Nibelheim to Midgar. It fitted the less realistic style of the OG, nonetheless I can't help but find that part of the novel really poorely written.

Was this written before Crisis Core? Maybe that explains why Zack and Aerith’s interaction seemed off then?

I have a feeling that their real chance to become a real family and to be in a good romantic relationship comes after the events of AC, after they get rid of a lot of personal issues.

Yeah, that’s pretty much been my takeaway from the whole thing, it makes sense to call them friends seeing as they haven’t formally begun a romantic relationship, they’re just not “just friends” (which would suggest a platonic relationship) since they do have mutual romantic feelings…if there’s ever a time to have them make it official, I’d say do it after AC (again, ALL the devs would have to do is just off-handedly mention they got married after AC in an interview or something lol)

Look at what @KindOfBlue writes, he's looking at words translations and meanings, that's about when you are looking at it with a magnifying glass and you're wayyyyyyyy too close to understand the whole story.

I hope you realize we’ve both come to the same conclusion about how the LTD ends

My only reason for bringing any of this up in the first place is because I think it would be far more convenient and less time-wasting for the fanbase if SE just specifically said Cloud and Tifa were dating/married already lol

This. Characters who are boyfriend/girlfriend but haven't had sex still say koibito to describe each other. Golden Time is a good example. (And they say koibito a LOT. Accursed subs, I can't unhear that word anymore!)

I mean that would make “beloved” a more accurate translation then, wouldn’t it?

(*cough*thesamepersonwithmultipleaccounts*cough*)

On the one hand, this is what made me completely ditch the FF7R subreddit altogether…but on the other hand, it brought me to this funky bunch right here

Am I allowed to like both ships equally?

NO. JOIN OR DIE. jk don’t run away pls

But since people don't really read, I suspect that phrasing would've made them lose their minds more than calling Cloud Aerith's beloved did.

I’m sure it would have because for a modern English audience, to be somebody’s “lover” doesn’t mean you just like them but I think at some point though, you’d have to use the language most appropriate for the time in which the material is being released…I mean, sure you could say Tifa is a “bully” to Cloud because “bully” apparently meant “sweetheart”/“darling” centuries ago, but we know from the modern usage of “bully” that it wouldn’t be appropriate (though I know some Cloud and Aerith shippers might disagree on that particular point lmao)

I mean, it's just a word. It doesn't erase the fact that Aerith/Cloud never happened and never will, and that Tifa/Cloud happened and they keep happening regardless of what iteration of themselves they are. And regardless of whatever maybe squishy romantic feelings Cloud may or may not have had for Aerith, it doesn't change the fact she was someone he cherished/cherishes. She was his protectee (even if he was kinda roped into it), comrade and friend at least, and in Japanese stories that's a big deal. Sometimes when I read these discussions it sounds like Cloud must have some shade of romantic feelings for her or he has no feelings at all.

See, I feel like if we could get a more clear answer so we could just skip past all the BS arguing about whether or not Cloud and Tifa made their relationship official or whether or not Cloud liked one girl more than the other, maybe more of the fanbase could get back to discussing what ACTUALLY matters in the story…but maybe I’m giving the FF7 fanbase too much credit lol

 

[frosty]

I don't object much his conclusions but rather the way he expressed them in the novel. Aerith meets Zack in the afterlife and she doesn't really confront him about their feelings, she doesn't acknowledge his merits fot having saved Cloud carrying him unconscious from Nibelheim to Midgar. It fitted the less realistic style of the OG, nonetheless I can't help but find that part of the novel really poorely written.

Was this written before Crisis Core? Maybe that explains why Zack and Aerith’s interaction seemed off then?

If it's Maiden, then it came with Ultimania Omega - released in 2005. Crisis Core came 2 years later. And all Matsuyama could work off with is OG material.

Just maybe some insight to how a multinational corporation works with translations...I can't say it's the same as the video industry, but it's nigh impossible for the original writers in my content / series / movies industry (usually, a team consisting of the executive producer, creative director, a senior writer and maybe a couple of freelancers) to be able to check through ALL translations. The writers themselves also don't have the proficiency to be able to understand the nuances of the maybe 10++ languages their work is translated to. If they're really particular, they'll add in some notes. If not, their work is shipped off to 3rd party translators who have a short turnaround time before it gets to print.

Occasionally, if a grave mistranslation happens with a complaint...the kind of mistranslation that might cause a PR crisis and have severe financial impact...I'll step in to manage it. If it's so petty it only ruffles a couple of feathers on social media...I'll say "lol that sucks" and move on with my work.

Which is why this hairsplitting over girlfriend / beloved / lover etc. is a little redundant...if you ask me.

 

[Eerie]

I hope you realize we’ve both come to the same conclusion about how the LTD ends

My only reason for bringing any of this up in the first place is because I think it would be far more convenient and less time-wasting for the fanbase if SE just specifically said Cloud and Tifa were dating/married already lol

I was thinking it was weird you hadn't answered my teasing XD

But I do think that this kind of dissecting the words is what distorts the story and hinders its understanding. I know, I've done the same, a lot of older LTDers here have too, we're all at fault with this. The thing is, SE could say "Cloud and Tifa are married" and it would only change the LTD discourse, it'd become "yes but Tifa is only second best, he married her because Aerith is dead" (look, even some cloti shippers think so, that's how badly the OG was understood). Half of it is already about who Cloud loves most. It is that stupid.

 

[MiraTora]

It’s funny because there’s one time I was convinced that Cloud loves both girls after having a chat with one of my friend who got Aerith resolution when the game came out (he basically said Cloud loves Aerith, but he will love Tifa later). Both of us only played OG and didn’t even read Ultimania yet until later on. My friend then said that he just realize the word Aerith said “it’s not real” is pointing out his identity crisis, referred to her Gold Saucer date. I mean, myself also surprise when reading the Ultimania, and that’s the reason why I immediately change the view about “Cloud loves both”. Idk if there’s a quote support Clerith but all I see is heavily Cloti quotes inside Ultimania(and I think this also confuse many people when they read Ultimania for the first time especially they will also have a thought about Cloud’s feelings for both). And this is brought up until now that many Cleriths cannot debate against Clotis, they have to use spin offs, Maiden and Dismantled(their three main sources) to fight against Clotis(oh and “koibito” too)
Over one years searching for LTD in compilation, I can see one of the truth about love triangle everyone cannot debunk is that Tifa and Aerith, all two of them have romantic feelings for Cloud, and Cloud is wavered between them from Kitase interview(like I said about Cloud complex feelings for both of them, idk if Kitase really just referring about Cloud fake persona in the game). Somehow there’s one thing I really concern, if they really push Clerith had romantic feelings along with Cloti, I think they would have write them down in Ultimania, if not committing feelings, I think at least they would have show clearly that Cloud have “romantic feelings” for Aerith. However in Ultimania,Cloud’s feelings for Aerith is still/mostly ambiguous(and I’m not judging people who still think Cloud have romantic feelings for Aerith).
I’m not the short minded person when comes to shipping, because the “a man who loves a girl but she died, and he moved on with another girl” trope is kinda familiar with me. Such as Inuyasha, Kenshin, and one of the famous work in my country called “Jade Dynasty” is extremely stick to this trope and has the exact love triangle concept that people thought about in FF7(MC romantically loves both, he has strong feelings for the first heroine but she died in front of him, he is sad and want to bring her back to life but later on he moved on with a second heroine). Of course the only differences is Cloud having fake persona in the first half of the game and his feelings cannot be clearly stated until later of the game when he gains his true self, which is why I can see many Clotis are fighting about “Cloud only have romantic feelings for Tifa according to LS and Ultimanias”
So yeah, I see the debate right now is not just simply about “Cloud loves Aerith but he moved on with Tifa because the devs said so” but it’s strongly about “the devs are still ambiguous either ships” and “Cloud only confirmed his feelings for Tifa in Ultimanias that he loves her all along”
I guess if the devs didn’t released Ultimanias, most people will still think that Cloud loves both until now

 

[Thenir]

Was this written before Crisis Core? Maybe that explains why Zack and Aerith’s interaction seemed off then?

If it's Maiden, then it came with Ultimania Omega - released in 2005. Crisis Core came 2 years later. And all Matsuyama could work off with is OG material.

Yep, what I mean is that the novel is poorly written even just in the light of the OG. The author basically avoids the issue and offers no re-evalutaion of the situation after the misunderstanding about Cloud's personality is clarified.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Which is why this hairsplitting over girlfriend / beloved / lover etc. is a little redundant...if you ask me.

Everything about the LTD is redundant, that’s why we’re all still here lmao.

We all seem to agree that Cloud and Tifa is the endgame couple so it’s not like anybody here is trying to disprove that but let me put it like this: let’s say the devs just said “wife”, wouldn’t that save us a lot of trouble? Sure, you’d have people upset for all of eternity but at least people would have less room to misrepresent the story, which I personally find one of the worst things about this mess.

The thing is, SE could say "Cloud and Tifa are married" and it would only change the LTD discourse, it'd become "yes but Tifa is only second best, he married her because Aerith is dead" (look, even some cloti shippers think so, that's how badly the OG was understood). Half of it is already about who Cloud loves most. It is that stupid.

I think it’d be a clear way to filter out the crazies though because even people who prefer Cloud and Aerith would have to bend the knee and accept Cloud and Tifa as endgame. The people who say stuff like “Tifa is second choice” or inevitably people who would say stuff like “Cloud is unfaithful to Tifa because he likes Aerith more” would stand out more as being fringe parts of the fanbase hell-bent on misrepresenting the story for new fans to build their “army” instead of seeming like normal fans who just prefer Cloud and Aerith.

Lemme tell you, it saved me a whole lot of trouble in the Naruto fanbase online knowing that I could just easily just dismiss anybody who actually believed Sakura loved Naruto because anybody who actually tried to prove that made a fool of themselves in the process lol.

 

[Phantasia]

We all seem to agree that Cloud and Tifa is the endgame couple so it’s not like anybody here is trying to disprove that but let me put it like this: let’s say the devs just said “wife”, wouldn’t that save us a lot of trouble?

I, for one, think this drama should be put at rest after Under the Highwind happens, so, before wife, kids, Advent Children or whatever timeskip there might be. People love to fill in the blanks with headcanons.

After playing part 1 and intermission, I have very, very high expectations for the next games. I liked it that much, gameplay-wise and all. If love is gonna play a role in the story, I want a good love story to be told, and for me at least, that means leaving all the "wavering", all the "choices" and all the "Tifa or Aerith" in the past (just like Brit Baron more or less said in one of her interviews). It's so antiquated, and honestly, just doesn't work with the premise we have on hand.

While part 1 improved a lot in these regards, we are not quite there yet. Having to choose one of them in the sewers for example... A choice that doesn't affect the story, good, but It felt unneeded nevertheless. It feels so reductive. I understand the callbacks to the OG with the choices and stuff, but for me, part one had just enough. I hope the rest could move onto new things, while keeping the same story we all love.

End of my little rant.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I, for one, think this drama should be put at rest after Under the Highwind happens, so, before wife, kids, Advent Children or whatever timeskip there might be. People love to fill in the blanks with headcanons.

After playing part 1 and intermission, I have very, very high expectations for the next games. I liked it that much, gameplay-wise and all. If love is gonna play a role in the story, I want a good love story to be told, and for me at least, that means leaving all the "wavering", all the "choices" and all the "Tifa or Aerith" in the past (just like Brit Baron more or less said in one of her interviews). It's so antiquated, and honestly, just doesn't work with the premise we have on hand.

While part 1 improved a lot in these regards, we are not quite there yet. Having to choose one of them in the sewers for example... A choice that doesn't affect the story, good, but It felt unneeded nevertheless. It feels so reductive. I understand the callbacks to the OG with the choices and stuff, but for me, part one had just enough. I hope the rest cloud move onto new things, while keeping the same story we all love.

End of my little rant.

Oh, lemme tell you, I had little to no problem with the story changes in the remake and yet I actively dislike the love triangle stuff. Personally, I just don’t like love triangles in general though I understand it is a part of the story. For what it’s worth, I’d say it’s handled mostly tastefully.

Toning down the jealousy and cattiness between Tifa and Aerith and highlighting their friendship was definitely a plus. Like I said earlier, I wish the discovery and resolution scenes weren’t optional, and I probably would’ve taken out the sewer choice altogether.

Antiquated is a perfect word for this, SE can take advantage of all the engagement as much as they want but by the time this is all over, I really hope the LTD will become obsolete. Wishful thinking, but a fella can dream, right?

Also, if SE has the guts to at least show Cloud and Tifa share a kiss under the Highwind before fading to black and make it non-optional, it would sure put a pretty big hole in the “the romance is ambiguous/up to interpretation” narrative.

 

[Ryeleigh]

See, I feel like if we could get a more clear answer so we could just skip past all the BS arguing about whether or not Cloud and Tifa made their relationship official or whether or not Cloud liked one girl more than the other, maybe more of the fanbase could get back to discussing what ACTUALLY matters in the story…but maybe I’m giving the FF7 fanbase too much credit lol

I don't know if I can word this right but expecting the devs to make a very special memo about something they have already answered in the OG, Ultimanias, spin-offs, Remake, and whatnot feels... kind of demeaning, you know? It's like saying they failed in presenting the story. If I was in their shoes, I'd refuse to answer that question too out of sheer spite lol

I mean, Cloud and Tifa confessed and confirmed their mutual feelings (without words~~). In Japanese (and South Korean) stories that makes their relationship official, even if they break up later. It's a tacit understanding. And sure there are some stories where the other person still questions if they're "officially together", like in Lovely Complex, but Koizumi and Otani were dumbasses and seventeen, and Cloud and Tifa are in their early twenties and presumably not dumbasses. Could be funny, though, if they had a similar conversation:

CLOUD: Do friends do what we did?

TIFA: What we did?

CLOUD: You think I go around doing stuff like that with people I think of as just friends?!

TIFA: Huh?

CLOUD: I do not go around kissing people I consider to be just friends!

TIFA: Oh, yeah. Duh. Of course not. I guess if we kissed like that, we aren't just friends, are we...? So... but then... what are we...?

But I can't really imagine it lol

As far as Cloud's whatever-feelings for Aerith go, they don't matter because they never happened and never will. Obviously they weren't that important if the devs didn't feel compelled to address them in any of the materials they've published.

 

[frosty]

We all seem to agree that Cloud and Tifa is the endgame couple so it’s not like anybody here is trying to disprove that but let me put it like this: let’s say the devs just said “wife”, wouldn’t that save us a lot of trouble?

Noctis and Luna ended up in the afterworld married...sealed with a kiss. Yet still people say ..."They were forced to get married. They didn't have a romance. His flashbacks of her gave such a sibling vibe. Noctis brushes off all the comments about Luna. You get a choices of what kind of messages are in the notebook they shared"

So...yeah. Even wife-ing Luna didn't quiet them down

After playing part 1 and intermission, I have very, very high expectations for the next games. I liked it that much, gameplay-wise and all. If love is gonna play a role in the story, I want a good love story to be told, and for me at least, that means leaving all the "wavering", all the "choices" and all the "Tifa or Aerith" in the past (just like Brit Baron more or less said in one of her interviews). It's so antiquated, and honestly, just doesn't work with the premise we have on hand.

The next part contains Gold Saucer, which to me is the crux of all the romantic choices we got to make in the OG. I see it as being too nostalgic and important for the developers to abandon this entirely. But the fact that there might be choices will again fuel shipper fire, no matter how innocuous. I'm just interested to see how it will play out and how Cloud's "choices" will lead to his "date".

I don't know if I can word this right but expecting the devs to make a very special memo about something they have already answered in the OG, Ultimanias, spin-offs, Remake, and whatnot feels... kind of demeaning, you know? It's like saying they failed in presenting the story. If I was in their shoes, I'd refuse to answer that question too out of sheer spite lol

If they do go with a clearly, and indisputably romantic angle i.e. Cloud and Tifa mash faces and uglies at the end, a sentence in the interview like "This is what we intended for these characters from the OG itself, but we were limited in the portrayal of a romantic scene by blocks and pixels. Remember back when we attempted the Chocobo stable route? hahah. "

I'd actually take it as good enough to end any dispute, but shipper discourse surprises me every time.

 

[Eerie]

The next part contains Gold Saucer, which to me is the crux of all the romantic choices we got to make in the OG. I see it as being too nostalgic and important for the developers to abandon this entirely. But the fact that there might be choices will again fuel shipper fire, no matter how innocuous. I'm just interested to see how it will play out and how Cloud's "choices" will lead to his "date".

The next part definitely won't have the GS date. At best we'll get Nibelheim to Nibelheim (crossing fingers), but I do hope that people realise the work needed to expand on the OG to get just to Nibelheim. They also implied we won't get Wutai next part, so I am expecting Wutai and the GS date to be the 3rd installment. This is why I am currently betting for a breather at Costa del Sol (equivalent of chapter 9). The first time we get to the Gold Saucer we actually don't get the date, we get Barret's backstory. This is also why I say that next part is going to be unpredicatable, LT-wise, because normally in the OG... there is next to nothing there. So they are going to have to add a lot of things.

Setting that aside, I have reread CoT lately, an coupled with the Reunion Files and the Ultimania where Tifa is stated to have complicated feelings towards Aerith before smiling and be grateful at her, I have come to a better understanding of Tifa in ACC (we often focus on Cloud, but rarely on Tifa, and I think in my previous CoT reading(s), I did focus more on Cloud than Tifa, which is an error since CoT is Tifa's POV).

In the Reunion Files, the quote that interested me was:

Like Aerith, she also has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also fel a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a "big kid" himself in some respects.

because that's a quote that's often used by some people to pretend that Tifa doesn't love Cloud romantically. But, I'll come back to it later.

First, I want to take note that our THREE protagonists, Aerith, Cloud and Tifa have the same bad habit of not wanting to confront reality. It is the crux of Cloud's problem in both FFVII and ACC, but Aerith too deals with it as if everything was alright (remember her reaction to Barret in the OG and how she told Tifa to act as if nothing happened). Tifa too, has that same habit:

One fated day. The day when Meteor came flying down from outer space and the Lifestream flowed out from the planet, gathering together and destroying it. Tifa had watched the scene from the sky, together with her companions. I thought it’d be fine if everything just washed away. Wash away my past. She could feel the obscure terror that came with the relief that the battle was over.

She does get scolded later on by Barret and Cloud for these thoughts, which I think is great because it does put her back on tracks. Tifa also has that same problem in FFVII, but unlike Aerith and Cloud she does get to confront reality. I am talking only about the intimate parts of the plot here, we know Aerith acts upon the external plot, and I think it's interesting because it's a show off of their roles. Ultimately, unless it is tied to Sephiroth, the Cetras or the Lifestream, Aerith does not really act, she pretends everything is fine - that's her coping mechanism given by Ifalna. Tifa on the contrary has learned to face reality by Zangan, and while she does pretend that everything is fine up to a point, she also is able to face her own fears and face reality.

I think it is a stark difference between clerith and cloti, to me - it is that it's Tifa who is designed to give Cloud the push he needs to confront his own fears, to act and be a real hero: in the OG Tifa does so during the Lifestream scene. In Remake, she does so at the top of the Shinra tower. In ACC she does so when she calls him out in the kids' room. In all these instances, she pushes Cloud to better himself, to be not *her* hero, but *the* hero. To me this is part of why cloti works better than clerith in universe.

Tifa burst out in laughter. Cloud went on about how he got paid a little for delivering items. He explained to her how he felt guilty spending it all on the modifications for the bike. Tifa thought he was just like a kid. It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that I didn’t know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside, enjoying the new feeling that was welling up inside her.

And we are back to that motherly feeling; it amuses me to no end because what is this scene about? It's about Tifa's motherly feelings for Cloud. But what is it about? CONVERSATION ABOUT SHARED FINANCES. Something only couples have. So it's a way of saying "look, Cloud is still a big kid who is discovering the world, and Tifa feels like a mother when that happens, but they are a couple". I don't even know why it's a topic at all, except for some who'd like Tifa to not be in love with Cloud (there was a recent hiccup about that in Twitter following a bad interpretation of the latest novella).

BTW, speaking of the latest novella, Cloud's behaviour somehow reminds me of his father's, who wanted to discover the world. At the end of the day, I do wonder if something happened to him (Shinra, hello?), and I feel that he was always meant to come back to Claudia, that people assumed that he was leaving her but just like Cloud he wanted to go outside and come back. I do feel that Nojima may point at parallels and similarities between their two personalities, and it may leave an open door for Remake to expand upon (after all, Hojo wasn't that far away at that point).

Tifa put the slip away with the others as if nothing happened, but she was trembling severely. Transporting mail around the world meant he was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn’t protect Aerith. Cloud was trying to overcome that and live on. But, going back to the place where he parted from Aerith might mean that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart again.

So yeah. We often forget about it, but Tifa is the woman who understands Cloud the most. She hit right int he nail about what was troubling Cloud there - and it has nothing to do with love. It made me think about her line in the movie, about losing to a memory. She's not saying Cloud loves Aerith more there, she is saying he is losing to his guilt and sorrow, and abandoning his family for this. So, I think I understand more her complicated feelings towards Aerith; she feels like she is asking Cloud to let go of her memory, that this memory is poisoning her family, and at t he same time, she does cherish Aerith. But Aerith, in the end, wants the same thing from Cloud, she doesn't want him to dwell on her death forever. And Tifa understands that, she also get that it's not really "letting go" of Aerith's memory, but that guilt that is associated to it and drives him into despair. Looking back at it... I don't really sense jealousy. It's really complex, but since she truly understands Cloud's psyche here, being jealous would really make no sense to me.

What I think is really interesting in the end is that CoT is really family-oriented. We see their family, the problems they run into - we understand what Nojima has done there; a young couple already at such a serious stage of their life that they could be married, which are also drove by Tifa's insecurities, Cloud's mental troubles, etc. We see that with the kids around, Tifa feels more confident that they are a family - she understands that both she and Cloud have the same family dynamic as any normal family. "Maybe the kids can help" has said Nojima, and I totally see his reasoning here.

By the end of ACC, in The Turks are Alright, we see both Cloud and Tifa being confident about their family, their roles in it, their roles in each other's lives. We see the deep trust they have in each other being reinforced, leading to the affirmation that now they are a solid couple that can live through life. ACC is really the movie that resolves the problem posed in CoT, where Cloud, pushed by Tifa, finally gets to face his problem - which is resolved by Aerith's total absolution.

PS: I would have posted this in the cloti FC, but since it also touches Aerith, I posted it here instead, sorry.

 

[KindOfBlue]

It's like saying they failed in presenting the story. If I was in their shoes, I'd refuse to answer that question too out of sheer spite lol

I’d argue they did fail if we’re talking about AC especially and to a degree the OG considering how much of what we know comes from clarifying statements made in interviews and ultimanias already…but in any case, like I said there doesn’t need to be much fanfare about it, just casually mention “oh yeah, they got married and had kids” or something and move on with it

As far as Cloud's whatever-feelings for Aerith go, they don't matter because they never happened and never will. Obviously they weren't that important if the devs didn't feel compelled to address them in any of the materials they've published.

As you can probably tell, I’m a firm believer in leaving as little to the imagination as possible when people get out of hand with misinterpretations to the extreme degree that the FF7 fanbase does…normally, I really wouldn’t care so much but something about this franchise attracts just the weirdest people lmao

So...yeah. Even wife-ing Luna didn't quiet them down

Oh no those types of people definitely won’t quiet down, but I would at least hope that more reasonable people would be less likely to even entertain something so absurd

But the fact that there might be choices will again fuel shipper fire, no matter how innocuous. I'm just interested to see how it will play out and how Cloud's "choices" will lead to his "date".

The conversations had during those dates will definitely be interesting, presumably they’d be more or less similar to the OG but I wonder if there’d be a way to contextualize Cloud and Aerith’s conversation to push them more towards Tifa and Zack respectively if the devs intend on solidifying those pairings…either way, I am not looking forward to the social media discourse surrounding the Gold Saucer date AT ALL lol

 

[Ryeleigh]

I’d argue they did fail if we’re talking about AC especially and to a degree the OG considering how much of what we know comes from clarifying statements made in interviews and ultimanias already…but in any case, like I said there doesn’t need to be much fanfare about it, just casually mention “oh yeah, they got married and had kids” or something and move on with it

Lol not gonna lie but I abhor stories that end with marriage and kids. But to be fair, that might just be because it’s so overdone and most authors use it as next-gen sequel-baiting and I abhor next-gen sequel-baiting.

Also, I'm curious. Did they fail in Japan too or did they just fail in the West?

As you can probably tell, I’m a firm believer in leaving as little to the imagination as possible when people get out of hand with misinterpretations to the extreme degree that the FF7 fanbase does…normally, I really wouldn’t care so much but something about this franchise attracts just the weirdest people lmao

Oh, I guess that’s where we differ then because I’m the exact opposite, ha ha. It’s like, should the authors dumb down their stories just because of people who argue in bad faith about something they’re not going to accept in the first place? That... just doesn't make for very good story-telling and I'm more interested in that than what some loud, obnoxious fraction of a fandom has to say.

Also, I don’t know if you read fan fiction? But most fan fiction is hideously OOC and most of that OOCness doesn’t even come from a place of ill-intention. It’s just most fanfic writers either write the characters as they want them to be (which often coincides with their idealized sense of self) – instead of who the characters actually are – or they use them as puppets to write about their particular sexual fetishes.

So I guess I’m just used to having my favourite characters misrepresented and mangled in any fandom. I just ignore it and move on. I mean, it’s not like you can control what people think or feel about things anyway?

And we are back to that motherly feeling; it amuses me to no end because what is this scene about? It's about Tifa's motherly feelings for Cloud. But what is it about? CONVERSATION ABOUT SHARED FINANCES. Something only couples have. So it's a way of saying "look, Cloud is still a big kid who is discovering the world, and Tifa feels like a mother when that happens, but they are a couple". I don't even know why it's a topic at all, except for some who'd like Tifa to not be in love with Cloud (there was a recent hiccup about that in Twitter following a bad interpretation of the latest novella).

Lol, I actually have a hard time relating to fans who gush over how hot Cloud is because to me the kid's moody little brother vibe was so strong I can't see him as anything else XD

 

[KindOfBlue]

Lol not gonna lie but I abhor stories that end with marriage and kids. But to be fair, that might just be because it’s so overdone and most authors use it as next-gen sequel-baiting and I abhor next-gen sequel-baiting.

Also, I'm curious. Did they fail in Japan too or did they just fail in the West?

In my example, the marriage thing wouldn’t actually be shown, just mentioned after the fact so I guess the fanfics can take it from there lol. All that’s needed is the knowledge that it happened, really.

As far as Japan goes, I can’t really speak to whether or not the Japanese fandom also experiences these wildly different interpretations of the story. To a degree, the devs do like to let fans come to their own conclusions, but I don’t know much about how Japanese fans feel towards the compilation and whether or not there’s been the same level of confusion over certain story bits. There’s definitely a side of this that’s unique to the West namely when it comes to translation issues though, but surely other users would be more knowledgeable about that than I.

Oh, I guess that’s where we differ then because I’m the exact opposite, ha ha. It’s like, should the authors dumb down their stories just because of people who argue in bad faith about something they’re not going to accept in the first place? That... just doesn't make for very good story-telling and I'm more interested in that than what some loud, obnoxious fraction of a fandom has to say.

In most cases I’d agree about not dumbing down the story, though I’m willing to make exceptions under two conditions:

1. It actually works in favor of the story or at least helps tie up loose ends

2. The fans are just that friggin’ stupid

You could probably figure out which of those conditions I already consider fulfilled lol.

Also, I don’t know if you read fan fiction? But most fan fiction is hideously OOC and most of that OOCness doesn’t even come from a place of ill-intention. It’s just most fanfic writers either write the characters as they want them to be (which often coincides with their idealized sense of self) – instead of who the characters actually are – or they use them as puppets to write about their particular sexual fetishes.

Oh, I avoid fan fiction like the plague. Nothing against it in concept, it’s just that the wish-fulfillment aspect only reminds me that it’s not real. But see, if what I’m describing was contained to just fan fiction, I’d be all good with that.

The issue I have is how bad actors have plagued the FF7 fandom as a whole, people who are hell-bent on weaponizing a story we all love. You got shipping accounts actively fueling hostility and attacking people, influencers unknowingly playing into the shipping wars and emboldening the weirdos (I’m sure some do it on purpose), bad-faith translators manipulating the fanbase for shipping points, constant debates, harassment, doxing, death threats etc.

And all for what? A stupid video game. All over pixels. So honestly, I’m down with anything that gives these people less ammo to be dishonest with. Will it stop people from coming up with stupid stuff like “Cloud and Tifa’s hug was purely platonic” and “Tifa’s flower being crushed represents Cloud choosing Aerith over her”? Nope! But at least we can definitively point to the devs own words and dismiss stuff like that with ease.

 

[Phantasia]

“Tifa’s flower being crushed represents Cloud choosing Aerith over her”

Out of all the... questionable takes I've read, you had to remind me this one.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Also, I don’t know if you read fan fiction? But most fan fiction is hideously OOC and most of that OOCness doesn’t even come from a place of ill-intention. It’s just most fanfic writers either write the characters as they want them to be (which often coincides with their idealized sense of self) – instead of who the characters actually are – or they use them as puppets to write about their particular sexual fetishes.

I've read a great deal of fanfic, and I have to disagree with your assessment. While it is true that there's a significant number of fic writers who like to write about sex, this only reflects the high level of human interest in sex generally. I don't tend to find fanfiction writers' takes on characterisation to be any more or less accurate than that of fanartists, meta-writers, analysts etc.... And there's no correlation between how much the fic focuses on sex and how accurate the characterisations are.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Out of all the... questionable takes I've read, you had to remind me this one.

That particular take irked the absolute hell out me, not because I have anything against Cloud and Aerith, but the leaps in logic this fanbase conjures up really do astound me…I was very happy when the ultimania struck that one down but it’s a shame it took until like two months ago

to be any more or less accurate than that of fanartists, meta-writers, analysts etc.... And there's no correlation between how much the fic focuses on sex and how accurate the characterisations are.

I’d definitely throw a few of said fan artists and analyzers into the “less accurate characterization” category, that’s for sure lol

 

[frosty]

As far as Japan goes, I can’t really speak to whether or not the Japanese fandom also experiences these wildly different interpretations of the story. To a degree, the devs do like to let fans come to their own conclusions

I find fans get sucked so much into the translations / cultural nuances in arguing the LTD that they often place the Japanese interpretation on a pedestal - but SE develops games that is heavily marketed towards the US (I think SE's revenue was 70% US and Europe combined, while 30% rest of the world including Japan and Asia.)

It's absolutely RIDICULOUS to think that the writers / creators are so ensconced in their own cultures that they cannot write or depict universal concepts of love and romance to cater to a global audience. And even when they do choose to inject Japanese culture elements i.e. FFX's homage to Okinawan culture and yurei...Yuna is seen donning a traditional "western" wedding dress and kissing Seymour on the lips.

I think it's only the very stubborn who'd argue against Cloud/Tifa as endgame cos a man and a woman with romantic history living together raising a family brings the same implications whether you're White, Hispanic, Asian, or Inuit.

Also I've observed with Japanese fans (in my own industry as well) is that they're rather content to keep into their own communities of art and discussion without necessarily wanting to correct or contradict other differing opinions. Comments and opinions on soc med are expressed politely - "I like Aerith best, but Tifa is cute too ٩(＾◡＾)۶ " or "Wow, the Tifa camp is strong with VYoutuber / player"

It's the Western fans who are so hellbent on insisting their interpretation is right on the internet lol, and do things like spam streamers in their chat bar (Sorry to the primarily US audience on this site lol)

So it's probably not interpretations that differ wildly, but how they choose to express these differences.

Lol not gonna lie but I abhor stories that end with marriage and kids. But to be fair, that might just be because it’s so overdone and most authors use it as next-gen sequel-baiting and I abhor next-gen sequel-baiting.

Ditto. This marriage and kids thing. It just screams that the writer / mangaka is hoping to get a contract extension
I'm hoping FF7R will end as per the OG, but I'm afraid for a cheesy end-game epilogue that doesn't lend much to the initial story. Also a little bit afraid for the weekly chapter release format of Ever Crisis, cos that would mean no concrete "end" to the FF7 continuity as long as there are still Andriod/IOS players.

“Tifa’s flower being crushed represents Cloud choosing Aerith over her”

My favorite twitter find was: The blue baby on the vending machine in Wallmarket means Cloud will save Aerith this time and they'll have babies

 

[KindOfBlue]

It's the Western fans who are so hellbent on insisting their interpretation is right on the internet lol, and do things like spam streamers in their chat bar (Sorry to the primarily US audience on this site lol)

Well, we did manage to produce the kinds of people who spam official social media accounts with essays about how a developer should treat their own characters, so there’s certainly some entitlement that Western fans and really fans in general should answer for but won’t.

Some people have such a grudge against Tifa’s fanbase (and with good reason in some cases) and would hate to see such fans get emboldened by a Cloud and Tifa ending, but I doubt they’d complain if their own ship was validated. Either way, the devs are free to tell whatever story they want, it’s inevitable that somebody is going to be disappointed.

Ditto. This marriage and kids thing. It just screams that the writer / mangaka is hoping to get a contract extension
I'm hoping FF7R will end as per the OG, but I'm afraid for a cheesy end-game epilogue that doesn't lend much to the initial story. Also a little bit afraid for the weekly chapter release format of Ever Crisis, cos that would mean no concrete "end" to the FF7 continuity as long as there are still Andriod/IOS players.

In this case, I’d treat it more like a fan service “where are they now” kind of thing…the devs said they wanted to do the remake while they were still alive enough for the task, so I doubt they’d want to prolong this any more than they already are

My favorite twitter find was: The blue baby on the vending machine in Wallmarket means Cloud will save Aerith this time and they'll have babies

The cringe is strong with this one