SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I'm remembering these:

(It's SFW btw, they just named the complication of posts like that)

Bleach Hall of An*l Devastation:


Naruto Hall of An*l Devastation:

Ah, yes…I remember many a summer’s eve spent reading through the Hall after Naruto ended.

I’m sure no matter which way this thing goes, whoever “wins” is gonna be really toxic about it and whoever “loses” is gonna be really toxic. Surely both fanbases can generate more than enough salt to supply a collection of angry posts of this caliber either way.

I’ve never had anything to do with Bleach so I can’t speak to how it compares to FF7, but I have made parallels to Naruto here before. Granted, I’d argue Cloud x Aerith had much more going for it than Naruto x Sakura ever did, but perhaps for that reason sinking Cloud x Aerith could be more devastating by comparison.

I think most reasonable Cloud x Aerith shippers would at least accept Cloud x Tifa as canon, while the fringes of both fanbases would still find reasons to argue. But the goal here for me is to make the LTD as obsolete as possible. Arguing for Naruto x Sakura is such a waste of time at this point that I don’t think there’s enough a strong contingent of shippers to keep the LTD as active as it was back in the day, so the argument itself becomes more and more a thing of the past as the fanbase grows after the LTD has ended.

Hardcore shippers will still be around, but the only people with any reason to argue after the LTD ends are the weirdos who’ve made their ship their whole identity, and I would hope that those people would become less relevant as more reasonable fans fall into the category of “I like this ship, but this is how the story goes” instead of being emboldened by the weirdos that try to manipulate the story into something it clearly isn’t.
 

jeangl123

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Jean
I feel sorry for the account handler.


People who are complaining that the official account not giving CC love for the 14th anniversary but choosing to give AC attention... They do know that PSPs are no longer in production, right? And the call to action of the post is clearly to push ACC's rerelase's sales?
Plus they did actually acknowledge CC last year and even wrote an article for the website. People really make a big deal out of nothing.

https://square-enix-games.com/en_US/home/remember-when-crisis-core-final-fantasy-vii




 

rkss

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Me
The recent SE's leaks got me excited so I thought I'd check TLS once in awhile.
Not sure why did I click on this topic but oh boy... looks like Advent children's still triggered people after all these years...

As an AC veteran myself, whom had suffered PTSD and recovered from it. Anyone needs a hug, I can totally provide it:kissingheart:.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Please let me know if me posting Twitter arguments gets obnoxious and/or rulebreaking (though I wonder how many other people find the meta discussion around the LTD more interesting than the LTD itself at this point lol).

Because I’m apparently a masochist, I went and looked through whatever this past weekend’s drama was about and found some discussion in this thread over the meaning of the flashback to Claudia telling Cloud about what she thinks his “perfect girl” is.


It’s been discussed before, but I’m interested in this topic because I think it’s worth mentioning that though the line is very likely a reference to Aerith, it reminds me of the prediction from Cait Sith about a “bright future” in that these details often don’t reflect where the story actually goes.

It seems that for a lot of people, all the romantic Disney-esque tropes are an indication that the intended pairing is Cloud and Aerith. But if they’re the intended pairing, why aren’t they together? What could possibly be stopping the devs from making that relationship come to fruition? Unlike with Cloud and Tifa where I’d very much appreciate a completely unambiguous relationship status, for Cloud and Aerith it’s pretty easy for me to accept that they never had the chance to go there, not that they couldn’t have, but that circumstance took that option from them.

So for me it’s weird when people claim the game “favors” somebody because it assumes the game wants the player to have a choice while also nudging you in a particular direction, yet we don’t actually have a choice. Nothing you do will change that Aerith dies before her and Cloud get to be in a relationship. It’s also weird that nobody seems to remember that the relationship between Cloud and Aerith was designed to be one of tragedy and loss, and any hint towards a bright future between them is likely meant to foreshadow her death.
 
Lol

24 years.

Yeah, FF7's romantic storytelling (amongst other themes) has always been a bit subversive, though the mileage of this varies by the OG standards of who the Player got themselves to care about during their playthrough. The Remake offers something much more solid that is outside of us, but what it also allows is for us to see that the romanticism between both girls is something that is too ingrained into the characters/story without our dependence. The devs wrote it in before, it's always been a part of the characters, so I don't know why some people on Twitter believe the love triangle won't exist. They just need to stop expecting it to be Twilight.

For both woman—between all the little nods from outside viewers, typical romanticism framing (Cloud and Tifa train roll, Cloud catching Aerith and holding bridal style, Cloud's Resolution hug, etc.), the ghost-train yard scene for Aerith's openness and Tifa's reaction (which helps establishes Tifa and Aerith's complex layers for their own friendship), and Aerith literally having a conversation about love in her resolution—there's a lot packaged in the Remake alone that definitely sets an interesting course ahead that probably won't be properly inspected because 24 years of fandom stir-crazy (which affects the legacy of newcomers) seems to mostly be on a different wavelength than the material itself.

Ultimately I can't just blame the writing, even if I have my own thoughts of improvement on it. People are just way too indignant about their personal perspectives clashing with others on something that doesn't always have to be inspected that way.
 

Thenir

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nirnaeth
I find it odd that fans still argue about Claudia's dream sequence. I'd get it if it came from a newcomer but whoever knows how the OG story played out should understand that this memory is double-sided like all of Cloud's memories during his SOLDIER-arc, and it's not limited to the romantic topic.
Cloud falls asleep trying to remember "when was the last time he slept in a bed like that...", which after Kalm's flashback is revealed to be Nibelheim incident. He remembers himself as a cool Soldier not interested in romance while it's later revealed that he was an insecure Shinra grunt who had been in love with the girl next door for his whole life, and whether Claudia was recommanding him to find a random good girl or the girl she discovered he liked and who liked him back (is it really up to debate?), it doesn't make much difference. This memory is linked to his inner emotional weight as the girl he was thinking about in that specific moment was Tifa, the fact he didn't dare reveal he was in town, the fact he didn't live up to the promise, etc.

In my opinion this scene just stresses the fact that, despite his mental confusion, he's still attracted by the same aspects, he's just spent the whole afternoon saving "a cute girl in a pinch" who gave him the attentions he ever wanted (which fits his past memories and emotional engagement with Tifa), who finally brought him at her place, a bucolic village-alike location among the slums with a mother who's extremely similar to his own mother - demeanor and appereance. Aerith as well acts like the perfect girl described by Claudia but some people easily forget that her enthusiasm toward Cloud stems from her unresolved feelings for Zack - in the next scene especially she's not willing to let Cloud go away alone because she's not yet asked him about Zack. Like it or not what these two characters see into each other and what (at least at this point of the story) links them are their past love interests.
The "older" line is misleading, especially because it's meant to convey a sense of double meaning in Japanese (it could be older but also who acts in a mature way for her age), nonetheless if the age of the girls is only specified in external materials and never in the game, be it Remake, OG or the whole compilation, then age is not the element that draws the line here, and all the debate becaomes a mere semantic speculation.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
It’s been discussed before, but I’m interested in this topic because I think it’s worth mentioning that though the line is very likely a reference to Aerith, it reminds me of the prediction from Cait Sith about a “bright future” in that these details often don’t reflect where the story actually goes.
I think though that for this scene, ToTP has heavily reframed it - like it did with other stuff, like say, chapter 3 in its entirety. The way I see it, it's a mother teasing her son because she knows that he at least crushes if not more on the girl next door. She even describes Tifa - the mature girl that can nudge Cloud in the right direction, which is totally Tifa's role - with a grin. After ToTP, I just can't unsee that. In the same vein, Thea describing Cloud as beautiful is because she saw that her daughter crushed on the boy next door. It's just something that parents tend to do with their kids (we can't help ourselves ok? XD).

The fact is you could argue both ways in Remake, especially since we had a shot on Cloud's eyes that looked like they reflected stars, and quickly after tried to go back to Tifa, but it was just an interpretation. ToTP pretty much confirms it, especially since Claudia has no way to know Aerith, and since Aerith herself is the childish girl, not the mature one (no matter the English erasure of her character).

In the OG, IIRC, clotis argued that Cloud just wasn't interested in such girl (older) because he already was set onto Tifa, hence his answer to his mother "Not interested".

Edit: @Thenir also beautifully explained the fake/real angle which I hadn't considered. I really like how Remake is giving new thoughts to chew on and how we should have seen that scene, even from the OG perspective. We often forget that the LT is supposed to further the illusion, I guess we're pretty trapped in it :lol:

So for me it’s weird when people claim the game “favors” somebody because it assumes the game wants the player to have a choice while also nudging you in a particular direction, yet we don’t actually have a choice.
Oh no, I just had a lot of argumentation regarding this with Peko lol XD When people talk about that, they talk about the mechanism of the romance that is implemented in-game. And there is no way to deny that this mechanism favoured Aerith in the OG and favours Tifa in Remake. Let's get to it!

In the OG, Aerith starts with a higher base points - because she must make an impression, as the devs say. She's the easiest to get for the GS date, but also is put in situations where, if you play without knowing about it, you'll favour her unknowingly. For example, in the sewers, you wake up next to her while waking Tifa up is a grand detour. In the cells, when you ask everyone how they are, her name is at the bottom but the mouse pointer is next to her name. That kind of thing that make it easier to chose Aerith as the answer rather than Tifa. Tifa herself has some odd choices, like in Don Corneo's dungeon - if you ask her how she is, you'll lose points, but if you say "let's go save Aerith!" you'll win points, which is odd at best (and you're likely to ask how she is and lose points like this even if you want to favour Tifa). So the OG definitely pushed Aerith in such a way that the player felt that she was the right choice, which led to problematic interpretations once the player reached the Lifestream scene - to simply put it, the player thought it was in the past and now he loves Aerith. That's how the LTD was born, mainly, and why it still poisons FFVII to this day. It's also worth to note that when the game begins, Aerith is the first out of the two girls that you meet, so when you meet up with Tifa, you don't necessarily chose to flirt with her etc. because you want to see Aerith again.

In Remake, the mechanism is very different; first, there are less, less choices. As I joke often, it's down to a bunch of side quests you're supposed to do and who you wake up in the sewers. So basically, it seems even, right? Wrong. The mechanism does push Tifa through its trophy Dressed to the nines. Because you're supposed to do all the quests for Tifa for any of her dresses, while you're supposed to do less and less quests with Aerith to get her other dresses. Mechanically, that means that if you're doing this, then you have to get Tifa's resolution, no matter who you wake up in the sewers. However, it's also interesting that the game does give you a bonus scene for waking up Tifa first. And it is to note that the first girl that is mentioned and who you see is Tifa, and you are questioned about your relationship with her. I guess that it does change the perspective a lot for newcomers, because you become eager to meet up with her before even meeting up with Aerith - and you have no choice but to flirt with Tifa.

In that sense, despite having the choice, the OG did push Aerith as the preferred route, and Remake is pushing Tifa as the preferred route (I prefer to use "preferred" rather than canon, since anyway all three resolutions, whether you see them or not, are canon). Remake also has Aerith telling you flat that Cloud's feelings aren't real while (true) Cloud does show up to hug Tifa. It's very blunt in its narrative, compared to the OG, IMHO. Which again doesn't mean that we won't have any clerith in the next games: I fully anticipate that, and more cloti too. Just what is unforeseen, since at that point in the OG, there is very little romance (almost none until the GS date). Personally, I wouldn't mind if it followed the OG route there since it's rather heavy, story-wise, but it's probably not happening.
 
Though, are you specifically talking about Tifa's Resolution being the preferred one to get (particularly as a first-time playthrough), or just generally about the devs wanting fans to prefer Tifa's character in a romantic view for Cloud? If for the Resolution in the Remake, I'd say "more accessible" would be fitting as opposed to "preferred" in how we usually mean that. The latter is too direct/intentional a feeling—in that it being what the developers essentially want you to do the most, so to speak. But, I've seen lists of how to get what Resolution before and it seems to be balanced accessibility-wise regardless? That is, the +2 points from the side quests, the +1 sewer choice, and then two more +1 from dialogue options (Tifa - drink and Chocobo Sam comment | Aerith - flower and dress comment)? Just to make sure you don't have less than 5 points, otherwise you get Barret. The "how" of getting to see multiple dresses for Aerith doesn't really speak on preference for obtaining Tifa's Resolution [i.e. doing less to see difference], especially when the initial expectancy of the game design (especially on a first playthrough) is to do all of Aerith's quests anyway as the "best/completed" outcome. Unless I'm missing something, there is no "more or less" with Tifa and Aerith outside of just who you choose at the sewer for that +1 difference.

I'm pretty positive everyone has already hounded the specifics in the ground given fandom, but I actively decided to be away from it for the sake of my own sanity. lmao Either way, even if the above isn't true for equal accessibility, in regards to choices to be made, I definitely wouldn't say the devs want you to have Tifa's Resolution more than Aerith's, which may not be what you're saying (per my first question), but I'll throw that out there. Barret's is honestly the weirdest because it requires you to do less lol But, even then they want to encourage people to see all Resolutions anyway given that in-game indicator. Everything else that is present for the woman is really just, the story doing its thing for the characters, I don't really see it as trying to establish a route that we'll have a hand in choosing in the end, which there isn't (or shouldn't be) a choice on us anyway.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
I am talking about a preferred route because, to sum it up, the devs chose to give bonus scenes that are intrisically cloti or lead to cloti scenes:

- Cloud refuses Aerith's flower at first. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, seeing his expression and his body gesture, that he does not want to accept the flower. It is furthered by their chat later on when they come back from the church, and Aerith asks him to whom did he give the flower; it's a scene that doesn't make sense if he accepts the flower readily, he only accepts it when she tells him it'll make his girlfriend happy - hence the question about whom he gave it to. Which leads to Cloud giving the flower to Tifa.
- The train roll is an actual bonus scene where you get to play the hero with Tifa because you managed to beat the timer on time; if you don't though, Cloud will still come back to Tifa, help her and ask how she is (sounds like an hilarious troll to me, because you have to actively not fight to get this scene; you also miss the bonus scene of Tifa talking to the Shinra manager and that's the real shame there).
- If you wake up Tifa first in the sewers, you get a bonus scene with her, which does not happen is you wake up Aerith first.

The Tifa resolution scene is also not only about her, but also about Cloud and his need to protect her, be her hero; there is a whole mini-arc that starts when Cloud remembers the promise about this, but also that intensifies when Jessie dies; it's important for Cloud's development that he gets it. There is no mistake that in the first Ultimania, it was presented first, and it showed the hug while the two other resolutions had only Aerith and Barret (order is not chronological either). All scenes are canon, but if you get only one, then the Tifa route is preferable - it is pushed through a lot of non-optional scenes too, with a lot of flirting between the two to make Tifa look like the main love interest that she is. They want you to get Tifa's resolution scene, so they push Tifa so that you'll favour her in the sewers - it's a psychological act. I noticed when Materwelonz played, she chosed Tifa because she felt it had been a long time since she got the chance to play with her, even though she just went through Don Corneo's mansion. I found it interesting, because she clearly favoured Tifa, so she felt after all this time spent with Aerith, that there was still an imbalance of time that she wanted to compensate.

Also to my knowledge, which resolution you get is purely tied to the side quests with the girls and who you wake up in the sewers, that's it. We all thought there was more at first but the first Ultimania stated that only this is gives points for the resolutions.
 

Thenir

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nirnaeth
That is, the +2 points from the side quests, the +1 sewer choice, and then two more +1 from dialogue options (Tifa - drink and Chocobo Sam comment | Aerith - flower and dress comment)
It's +2 for each side quest and +1 the sewer choice (working as deciding point in case you had the same amount for both girls). Other optional choices don't affect the Resolutions scenes, which is quite interesting in my opinion, as if the devs wanted to convey the idea that the player's tastes won't influence the romantic subplot. I've seen a lot of people complaining that they couldn't get girl X's resolution scene even if they kept favouring her in every optional choice, turned out they were just skipping the side quests - definitely not that intuitive to relate romance to merc stuff.
I think the game is very balanced and that there's nothing more than a reference to the OG dates behind the optionality of the resolution scenes. Plot wise they seem to be all very important and all "canon" to tell it in a way dear to the fandom. The game itself encourages the player to view them all.
 
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Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
My many ventures into the fandom of yore have got me thinking about a few things.
Snow Fields, the ancient fic I've been making books out of, was the most popular thing ever in its day, and it's a friggin Vincent x Aerith fanfic. Cloud and Tifa are presented as a loving couple who live together. Only the most fleeting of references to the love triangle is made when they become aware of Aerith being not dead, but it's quickly brushed aside.

None of that was controversial at all, nobody was fighting about the pairings. What happened in the past 20 years that lead to things getting so heated?
 
I think there's been a shift towards not just arguing that one ship or the other is "non canon" or whatever, but specifically that the ship you're arguing against is morally bad. This makes everything a lot more emotive straight away. Being told that your ship is non-canon is one thing, being told your ship is problematic is gets nastier much more quickly. There's probably a more detailed post I could write about this phenomenon, where it came from and why it changed, but not while at work on my mobile lol.

Basically it's an extension of what was said way upthread about how people's ships represent something very personal to them, kind of being weaponised by both sides. I actually thought LTD stood for "love triangle discourse" when I first joined until I remembered the old acronym.
 
@Eerie Why do that?

I can inspect Aerith and Tifa's relationship with Cloud within this game for the sake of the story itself, but once I enter the territory of the purposeful setup of game mechanics for these Resolutions alongside it, the idea of there being a "preferred" makes no sense in execution for even this game alone. The scenes themselves don't tell you what the devs [what is designed in the writing] prefer for you to choose for the sake of the character, if even in the mindset of who better to like or who "makes sense" at the time. This isn't that type of game (or purpose of scene), or that of a controllable fanbase for that matter, which I'm sure the devs were also acutely aware of when designing the purposeful balanced method and showcasing of their interactions with Cloud for even getting the two Resolutions in the first place. Also, that's not how Ultimanias work, or mostly shouldn't work, where Tifa's being the first listed should have any provoked meaning of being most significant of the choices, especially when comparing to the context of how to even achieve hers alongside Aerith's. (This is a bone I've always had with fandom in evaluating these epitexts, but I digress)

There are definitely JRPGs that can be observed to have varying avenues where, essentially, one makes more sense because of storytelling, don't get me wrong. But, c'mon, the writing aspects given to both girls (all, not just romanticism), the balanced way of even getting the Resolutions for them on equal grounds, and even the significance of what's held in each scene: there's no sign here that the devs/story would be thinking "we want them to choose THIS one more". The former points show very heavily how attentive they were in giving both Aerith and Tifa importance for the player to interact with, and this isn't actually dependent on a matter of who got more romanticism or not (which we know, almost irrationally at times, is dependent on the individual fan).

Now, if I was making an argument that both Tifa and Aerith's are, say, more conventional to get than Barret's, where they'd prefer [really, expect] you to get either Tifa or Aerith's first playthrough based on the mechanic of it all, then that makes more sense. But between the two? The two most obviously framed as a choice setup by equal gameplay treatment? I'm confused as to why there's the need to contextualize Tifa's Resolution this way. Talking about the importance of the content is another matter.
 
Now, if I was making an argument that both Tifa and Aerith's are, say, more conventional to get than Barret's, where they'd prefer [really, expect] you to get either Tifa or Aerith's first playthrough based on the mechanic of it all, then that makes more sense. But between the two? The two most obviously framed as a choice setup by equal gameplay treatment? I'm confused as to why there's the need to contextualize Tifa's Resolution this way. Talking about the importance of the content is another matter.
I agree 100%. The way I see it, those resolutions are for the player to have a slightly different experience when doing another playthrough, without the particular intent of one been easier than the other, or "preferred".

When the whole game is set up for a second playthrough (hard mode challenges, different side quests given specific choices, etc.), it makes sense to give the player additional content, thus, motivating us with a slightly different experience.

Most of us can agree with who is the romantic pair of this game, even when evaluating it as a standalone. We don't require these kind of arguments.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yes, but as game mechanics go, you can get platinum and Dressed up to the nines trophy without ever seeing Aerith's resolution ;) just saying that this is what it means to have to do all Tifa's side quests (x3) and less of Aerith's side quests to get all the dresses.

Edit: now let's be clear, I totally agree that it makes sense for replay value. I'm just looking at how they did the mechanics.
 
That doesn't lend to the idea of ranked significance to Resolution though my friends XD It's all just gameplay stuff and differing mechanic approaches. There's no sense in extrapolating purposes there from alt dresses to who has the preferred Resolution, this is a weird correlation. Especially when even doing any of these can be done by cheating said mechanics using saves. Of all the things to crack codes for LTD, this ain't it. It's still better than the patented blue baby, I'll give ya'll that.
 
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